Yup the loss of utility is the main thing wild shape lost they are trying to remove the utility and give all druids a baseline combat forms. Problem is its worse than staying in your normal form so it does not even accomplish that. And a combat form even if it was effective is kind of lame compared to utility. Its like a bad disguise spell that stops you from using your normal abilities..
IS every class going to have healing in their class features? Even if the class itself is not "the" healer.
I hope so, although druids have always had the potential to be the closet thing to a backup cleric. But, party dynamics now are getting far more varied. Gone are the days (at least on all the tables I know) where a table looked at each other a decided who was going to nerf their really cool character concept to go party cleric. I am seeing more and more non cleric parties at my tables, or, clerics who want a frontline or more damage inflicting build rather then being relied on to be the party healer.
The biggest loss for the Druid right now is that since wild shape doesn’t use creature stat blocks they lost the tanky play style that existed in the class.
The new moon Druid doesn’t work because they don’t have any tanky-ness as stated as above.
Giving players access to MM stat blocks limits what stat blocks they can create.
There are multiple ways to make the one dnd druid work, but none of those ways is simple, nor will any method make all of us happy.
The biggest issue isn't even so much the loss of the tanky playstyle, it's the massive loss of utility that wildshape used to provide. Don't get me wrong, Moon Druid was my favorite sub-class because I do love the theme of turning into a wild beast and fighting in melee. But the loss of utility affects every version of druid in a massive way.
Also you can't create stat blocks with the new wildshape. You can flavor three existing stat blocks however you want but there is no customization available. Druids had significantly more mechanically meaningful creative choices with the old wildshape. An example:
5e Wildshape: My druid wildshapes into a giant spider. He sets up a trap to capture an enemy minion. I climb on the ceiling because nobody checks the ceiling. Minion walks in and doesn't notice the spider because it gives the druid +7 stealth. I then hit the Minion with Web, causing the Restrained condition. Then I drop down and deliver a Bite that administers the Giant Spider's paralytic venom, causing the enemy to become paralyzed when their HP reaches 0. I can then take the paralyzed minion back to the party for interrogation.
One DnD Wildshape: My druid wildshapes into Land Form that looks like a giant spider. It has a climb speed but can't Spider Climb, so I try to hide behind the couch instead. It gives no stealth bonus so the Minion notices I am there. I have no Web so I can't Restrain him, so I just attack. We make a big, loud fight where I lose a bunch of HP because I only have 13AC. I try to use Unarmed Strike to grapple and drag him out of the room but he kills me anyway because there's nothing in the current grapple rules to stop the guy from hitting you over and over again.
The first one feels like you're actually a giant spider. The second one you have no spider-like qualities at all. You may as well have entered that fight as an elephant or a giant gorilla for how much it effected the actual gameplay.
For One DnD's Wildshape to be baseline acceptable it HAS to give us access to various animal features that we can pick and choose. Anything less and it just won't feel like we're turning into animals. It'll feel like we're turning into an arbitrary stack of stats that is the same for every single animal we turn into, and that is boring and kills creativity.
It limits WotC in what beast stat blocks they can create. I had to reread that a few times to understand the miscommunication. The they in my #3 Is WotC. My apologies for not making that clear.
I have another topic posted brainstorming ideas to fix one dnd druids Wildshape. You should definitely join that conversation. I don’t agree that the Druid lost utility with the new Wildshape, but I do agree that Wildshape lost utility, and we are brainstorming ideas on the other post on how to fix it so we align when the survey comes out. If enough of us write the same ideas it’s likely we get something close to what we agree upon. Hiding behind the couch and hiding on the ceiling are mechanically the same. The Druid can give itself a bonus to stealth with a spell and can restrain with a spell. The utility isn’t lost, the thematics are lost. Also I]the spellslots would be lost. WotC has been trying to move away from giving players access to master statblocks. That’s been their design goal for a few years now. An easy fix for them would be to add a Wild Shape/Polymorph tag to all the beast that Wildshape and polymorph work on then they wouldn’t have to worry every time they make a new beast that players might get their hands on it. Also in the post someone suggested instead of just three stats blocks they list like 10 catch all stat blocks so they cover all those unique beast abilities without having to give players access to the actual monster statblock.
It limits WotC in what beast stat blocks they can create. I had to reread that a few times to understand the miscommunication. The they in my #3 Is WotC. My apologies for not making that clear.
I have another topic posted brainstorming ideas to fix one dnd druids Wildshape. You should definitely join that conversation. I don’t agree that the Druid lost utility with the new Wildshape, but I do agree that Wildshape lost utility, and we are brainstorming ideas on the other post on how to fix it so we align when the survey comes out. If enough of us write the same ideas it’s likely we get something close to what we agree upon. Hiding behind the couch and hiding on the ceiling are mechanically the same. The Druid can give itself a bonus to stealth with a spell and can restrain with a spell. The utility isn’t lost, the thematics are lost. Also I]the spellslots would be lost. WotC has been trying to move away from giving players access to master statblocks. That’s been their design goal for a few years now. An easy fix for them would be to add a Wild Shape/Polymorph tag to all the beast that Wildshape and polymorph work on then they wouldn’t have to worry every time they make a new beast that players might get their hands on it. Also in the post someone suggested instead of just three stats blocks they list like 10 catch all stat blocks so they cover all those unique beast abilities without having to give players access to the actual monster statblock.
Being on the ceiling means you can drop down behind the enemy once they enter the room. Behind the couch requires you to come out of hiding and charge. Different tactical positions to start the fight from.
The druid could cast Pass Without a Trace for a stealth bonus, sure. But you're still missing the utility of giving the enemy the Restrained condition vs just Grappling, as well as the paralytic venom's effect vs trying to knock them unconscious.
That's still a noticeable loss of utility. You'd probably be better off engaging the enemy as a full caster even as a Moon Druid.
The big issue with 10 statblocks is that it'd eat up a ton of paper space. Honestly, the best solution I've seen is to give us a list of traits we can apply to our Beast Form. We then choose say, three traits each time we wildshape into a new form.
So if I wanted to go Spider I'd pick Spider Climb, Web, and Blindsight. If I wanted to be a giant snake I'd pick Swim Speed, Darkvision, and Constrict. If I wanted to be an allosaurus I'd pick Run Speed Boost, Keen Senses, and Pounce. Stuff like that.
It makes each wildshape transformation flexible enough to at least mostly mimic an existing animal in the Monster Manual. Maybe Moon Druids even get a fourth trait or something.
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
They do allow people choose what CN they use. You start with Wildshape which is the core feature from 5e (yes, WS already needs a rework), then they add two more options with Natures Aid. A healing ability and the find fimiliar spell that was an option from Tasha’s. I’m sure subclasses other than Moon will give even more options for channel Nature. If they redo the Circle of Land Druid they might have some terrain altering ability as a CN. We know Spores and Stars would have a special CN. It’s likely Shepard and Dreams would as well. Saying they are imposing healing on you is like saying they imposed Wildshape on Circle of Land druids in 5e who only really wanted to be Nature wizards and never really used Wildshape. You don’t have to use the feature. I never use heavy armor on my dex based fighter. I don’t feel like they imposed that upon me. The 5e base Druid is all dead levels. You are making a huge fuss about one feature. And If your talking about the later feature that lets you WS and heal at the same time that’s pretty good considering how bad WS is right now.
“I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.”
Also you feel the druid shouldn’t be the thing that it has been for all of 4e, and 5e. Technically 3e as well, but you could do so much with a 3e druid I won’t say I won’t say having animal campions, healing and turning into animals was it’s main thing. You want it to be your idea of the druid should be even though your concept doesn’t align with the games history,. I find that strange. 5e Druids have always had healing, and Wildshape. 4e and 3e let you have an animal companion. 5e recently added and option for this. You don’t have to be a healer. The CN heal doesn’t make you a healer. It’s an option. Again it’s a bonus compared to 5e Druid that would just be a dead level.
It limits WotC in what beast stat blocks they can create. I had to reread that a few times to understand the miscommunication. The they in my #3 Is WotC. My apologies for not making that clear.
I have another topic posted brainstorming ideas to fix one dnd druids Wildshape. You should definitely join that conversation. I don’t agree that the Druid lost utility with the new Wildshape, but I do agree that Wildshape lost utility, and we are brainstorming ideas on the other post on how to fix it so we align when the survey comes out. If enough of us write the same ideas it’s likely we get something close to what we agree upon. Hiding behind the couch and hiding on the ceiling are mechanically the same. The Druid can give itself a bonus to stealth with a spell and can restrain with a spell. The utility isn’t lost, the thematics are lost. Also I]the spellslots would be lost. WotC has been trying to move away from giving players access to master statblocks. That’s been their design goal for a few years now. An easy fix for them would be to add a Wild Shape/Polymorph tag to all the beast that Wildshape and polymorph work on then they wouldn’t have to worry every time they make a new beast that players might get their hands on it. Also in the post someone suggested instead of just three stats blocks they list like 10 catch all stat blocks so they cover all those unique beast abilities without having to give players access to the actual monster statblock.
Being on the ceiling means you can drop down behind the enemy once they enter the room. Behind the couch requires you to come out of hiding and charge. Different tactical positions to start the fight from.
The druid could cast Pass Without a Trace for a stealth bonus, sure. But you're still missing the utility of giving the enemy the Restrained condition vs just Grappling, as well as the paralytic venom's effect vs trying to knock them unconscious.
That's still a noticeable loss of utility. You'd probably be better off engaging the enemy as a full caster even as a Moon Druid.
The big issue with 10 statblocks is that it'd eat up a ton of paper space. Honestly, the best solution I've seen is to give us a list of traits we can apply to our Beast Form. We then choose say, three traits each time we wildshape into a new form.
So if I wanted to go Spider I'd pick Spider Climb, Web, and Blindsight. If I wanted to be a giant snake I'd pick Swim Speed, Darkvision, and Constrict. If I wanted to be an allosaurus I'd pick Run Speed Boost, Keen Senses, and Pounce. Stuff like that.
It makes each wildshape transformation flexible enough to at least mostly mimic an existing animal in the Monster Manual. Maybe Moon Druids even get a fourth trait or something.
Ensnaring strike and entangle cover the restrained condition. I actually agree the moon Druid might as well not Wildshape as of now. WS is terrible. I’m simply stating the Druid overall hasn’t lost utility. Only Wildshape itself has lost utility. The list of traits to add WS forms was my suggestion to fix Wildshape. On the brainstorming post others have argued that it might be too much for some players to have to pick what traits to add each time they Wildshape. I personally don’t favor the multiple statblock idea, but I would take that over what’s presented in the UA. I’m 100% on board with the list of traits to add, but I’m willing to push for anything that would correct Wildshape from this form. I realize the surveys work best if many people are going in with the same mindset. If everyone is asking for different things the thing you want to happen doesn’t. Ardent is gone because the community was divided. Do we get another phb race to replace them? I doubt we completely lose the Druid, but we could end up in a dead space were no one is really happy with the final result.
I really wish people would take the time to look at the 5e Druid and make comparisons and not just make wildly outrageous claims. Let me lay out the truth and then we can align to get the fixes we would like to see.
1dnd Druid is not more Wildshape focused than 5e Druid. They are literally equally focused on Wildshape.
The new CN feature that allows you to heal is completely optional in use. It uses the same resource as WS so it’s meant as an option not to force druids to be healers.
They have been moving away from giving players access to MM stat blocks for a while now. The 1dnd conjuration spells will all likely have their own individual stat blocks as well.
The 5e Druid has a ton of dead levels so any features at those levels aren’t forcing your build in any direction in 1dnd. They are spreading things out so you feel like you are getting something, but in reality they are mostly the same features the 5e Druid had with some new names.
Being put in the priest group is not the problem. The groups barely matter so far.
The biggest loss for the Druid right now is that since wild shape doesn’t use creature stat blocks they lost the tanky play style that existed in the class.
The new moon Druid doesn’t work because they don’t have any tanky-ness as stated as above.
Giving players access to MM stat blocks limits what stat blocks they can create.
There are multiple ways to make the one dnd druid work, but none of those ways is simple, nor will any method make all of us happy.
yh ive addressed some of these point like how the early features are just taking the o5e ws table and making them features instead (probably to make it look like there are no dead levels). i dont see an issue with a cn heal but maybe also add a cn terrain thing aswell to please others, cant see adding one would cause the class to be any more or less powerful since there all linked by the one ability and since druids are known for shapeshifting, healing, terrain manipulation and summoning it would cover the last aspect at least. im not too bothered about using templates just make them usable thats why i suggestred to use the rangers primal beast stats and just tweak the hp to be balanced (can give the moon druid more since their role is to tank). the groups just seem flavourable like the experts all get expertiese the priest all get a channelling thing nothing that really binds them apart from a similarly shared mechanic. i do agree there are a lot of ways to make ws balanced and fun but so far 1dnd has gone the complete opposite to o5e and 05e in general wasnt even that op least in my experience, my beast forms are limited by what the dm throws at me (not all that common since beasts are poop as monsters) and the starting ones just had a quick discussion with the dm before the campaign started to make a small list of what creatures i would have seen in a forest (wasnt really all that bad). ive said time and time again a druid going thru the mm isnt as bad as any summoner going thru it to summon beasts or casting polymorph in these cases both summoning and polymorphing is a lot worse
sorry for double post but just noticed that wotc have been sneaky with how many wild shapes you get so at 9th level you max out at 4 per long rest and 1 back per short rest so on a 0-1 short rests per long rest thats 5 so more than normal 5e of 4 but once you get to 2 short rests per long rest there the same at 6 but any more than 2 short rests per long rest o5e have more (8 compared to the 1dnd 7 at 3 short rests). so i guess it would depend how often you get to short rest but its still sneaky
So allow players to choose what channel Nature feature they get.
Also I would like for the Druid to manipulate nature in a way to create Dificult Terrain with Channel Nature.
I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a healing feature?
I am sorry if I come out gruff about my opinion. But I do not want the Druid to be a shapeshifting Cleric. If you want a healing Druid pick healing Spells or have a circel based on healing. Do not impose it on me.
Where in the current Druid core class is there a terrain control feature?
In the spellcasting. Druid get a "create difficult terrain" spell at pretty much every spell level.
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
The new update for druid makes them borderline unplayable. I used to love playing druid but these changes are awful. Why changes wildshape that much? It was a core mechanic of the class and now you make it useless. WoTC continues to disappoint worse than I could've imagined for 2023
TSR/WotC continually experiments upon the classes and changes them. Druid had Wild Shape since 1E AD&D (or even earlier?). For Wild Shape in 1E, the druid could first heal 10-60% HP (10% x 1d6) and use their HP in Wild Shape. In 5E, the Druid uses the Beast HP while in Wild Shape.
Is the issue a matter of game balance, between players or between DMs and Players? What does game balance mean to you? Or what might be another issue?
Rapid feedback is now possible between players and game designers - that was hardly possible in the 70s when I started playing.
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
Sure Druids can be played as healers and I think that should remain. But we already have clerics as primary healers, so Druid needs something to distinguish itself - particularly since Nature Domain Clerics exist. The problem with the One D&D Druid is that the Healing Blossoms is the only use of Channel Nature that you would use more than 1/day. Thus by default making the Druid primarily a healer (at least until Tier 3 when Druids have no viable uses for Channel Nature other than the Wild Companion).
TSR/WotC continually experiments upon the classes and changes them. Druid had Wild Shape since 1E AD&D (or even earlier?). For Wild Shape in 1E, the druid could first heal 10-60% HP (10% x 1d6) and use their HP in Wild Shape. In 5E, the Druid uses the Beast HP while in Wild Shape.
Is the issue a matter of game balance, between players or between DMs and Players? What does game balance mean to you? Or what might be another issue?
Rapid feedback is now possible between players and game designers - that was hardly possible in the 70s when I started playing.
For Moon Druids not gaining hp of the beast robs them of the tanky-ness needed to be viable front line combatants.
For base Druid losing the ability to be a rat at level 2 hurts their ability to sneak around. Being able to cast find familiar means they don’t lose the ability to scout, but they do lose the ability move themselves around. There are thing a familiar can’t do. Losing the beast hp probably doesn’t hurt the base Druid much.
Losing unique features of beast stat blocks is a big hit to all druids. The land, sea, sky stat blocks lack things that would make you feel like a snake, a spider, a octopus, a shark, or etc.
I can understand wanting to try something new, but WotC missed the mark here.
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
Sure Druids can be played as healers and I think that should remain. But we already have clerics as primary healers, so Druid needs something to distinguish itself - particularly since Nature Domain Clerics exist. The problem with the One D&D Druid is that the Healing Blossoms is the only use of Channel Nature that you would use more than 1/day. Thus by default making the Druid primarily a healer (at least until Tier 3 when Druids have no viable uses for Channel Nature other than the Wild Companion).
They are in the priest group, and their history comes from them being a subclass of the cleric. Healing is a primary focus on purpose. The thing that distinguishes them from the other healer is their focus on nature based utility and battlefield control compared to undead turning and buffing others.
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
Sure Druids can be played as healers and I think that should remain. But we already have clerics as primary healers, so Druid needs something to distinguish itself - particularly since Nature Domain Clerics exist. The problem with the One D&D Druid is that the Healing Blossoms is the only use of Channel Nature that you would use more than 1/day. Thus by default making the Druid primarily a healer (at least until Tier 3 when Druids have no viable uses for Channel Nature other than the Wild Companion).
I don’t think that makes a Druid by default a primary healer. You are correct that moon Druids have nothing to do with thier CN since Wild shape is so bad, but we have no clue if Land Druid is coming back and if so what CN it might have. We know Spores, Stars, Dreams, and Shepards all have unique CN. I believe the only reason the moon doesn’t have a unique CN is because Wildshape is suppose to be a core feature all druids would find some use for, but clearly that isn’t true with this iteration of Wildshape. Gaining the ability to WS as a bonus action is their unique CN.
TSR/WotC continually experiments upon the classes and changes them. Druid had Wild Shape since 1E AD&D (or even earlier?). For Wild Shape in 1E, the druid could first heal 10-60% HP (10% x 1d6) and use their HP in Wild Shape. In 5E, the Druid uses the Beast HP while in Wild Shape.
Is the issue a matter of game balance, between players or between DMs and Players? What does game balance mean to you? Or what might be another issue?
Rapid feedback is now possible between players and game designers - that was hardly possible in the 70s when I started playing.
For Moon Druids not gaining hp of the beast robs them of the tanky-ness needed to be viable front line combatants.
For base Druid losing the ability to be a rat at level 2 hurts their ability to sneak around. Being able to cast find familiar means they don’t lose the ability to scout, but they do lose the ability move themselves around. There are thing a familiar can’t do. Losing the beast hp probably doesn’t hurt the base Druid much.
Losing unique features of beast stat blocks is a big hit to all druids. The land, sea, sky stat blocks lack things that would make you feel like a snake, a spider, a octopus, a shark, or etc.
I can understand wanting to try something new, but WotC missed the mark here.
A lot of this, imho, really just needs a bit of mechanical tweaking. I mean, this is a playtest, and tweaking numbers is a good thing.
Loss of tankiness? Calculate AC as 10+Wisdom+Light Armor bonus. Give the Moon Druid free Concentration on Barkskin and always have it prepared, or something similar - haven't tested to see how well it scales. But Moon druid was always meant to be tanky via draining spell slots into HP. Maybe lift max HP limit by druid level?
Can't scout as a rat anymore? Well, you can scout as a Small sized animal, and I'm fairly sure the lack of skills listed in the stat block was an oversight. Just add them in, and rolling Wisdom + Stealth or Wisdom + Athletics to get around is pretty nice dice pool. Not being able to turn into a Tiny sized critter is possibly a re-balancing feature, not a bug, at low levels - I've heard more than once that sneaky rat druids are better scouts than rogues and rangers, and its unfair to be a better scout than the classes designed to do it.
Loss of flavor based on animal? Yes, this is a problem, but should be easily fixable - all we need to do is add a list like the abandoned Ardlings had for different beast options. Get a list of, say... ten things for poison fangs, constriction/webs, pouncing, ramming down in a charge, climbing, swimming, extra skill like athletics or stealth, etc. You get to pick one when you assume Wildshape. You can pick two at level 5, maybe?
Why the steed as a part of the core class. replace it and give Steed to the Cavalier.
It's been a staple for Paladins. Although now it's a focal point. A focal point that will be useless for a large number of encounters where you can't use a large creature.
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
Sure Druids can be played as healers and I think that should remain. But we already have clerics as primary healers, so Druid needs something to distinguish itself - particularly since Nature Domain Clerics exist. The problem with the One D&D Druid is that the Healing Blossoms is the only use of Channel Nature that you would use more than 1/day. Thus by default making the Druid primarily a healer (at least until Tier 3 when Druids have no viable uses for Channel Nature other than the Wild Companion).
Bold of you to claim that Nature Domain Clerics exist. We're pretty certain that at least half of the PHB Cleric subclasses are going to get sacked, and I don't think anybody would be too sad to see Nature go. They've always kinda intruded on Druids IMO.
Why the steed as a part of the core class. replace it and give Steed to the Cavalier.
It's been a staple for Paladins. Although now it's a focal point. A focal point that will be useless for a large number of encounters where you can't use a large creature.
Something you might notice about Faithful Steed- it's given at 5th level. You know, the same level where Paladins get Extra Attack AND 2nd-level spells AND +3 Proficiency Bonus. What I mean by this is it's practically a ribbon feature- a pretty powerful ribbon feature, at that.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
Sure Druids can be played as healers and I think that should remain. But we already have clerics as primary healers, so Druid needs something to distinguish itself - particularly since Nature Domain Clerics exist. The problem with the One D&D Druid is that the Healing Blossoms is the only use of Channel Nature that you would use more than 1/day. Thus by default making the Druid primarily a healer (at least until Tier 3 when Druids have no viable uses for Channel Nature other than the Wild Companion).
I don’t think that makes a Druid by default a primary healer.
You might not, but WotC certainly does, given the description of the 'Priest' class group.
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Yup the loss of utility is the main thing wild shape lost they are trying to remove the utility and give all druids a baseline combat forms. Problem is its worse than staying in your normal form so it does not even accomplish that. And a combat form even if it was effective is kind of lame compared to utility. Its like a bad disguise spell that stops you from using your normal abilities..
I hope so, although druids have always had the potential to be the closet thing to a backup cleric. But, party dynamics now are getting far more varied. Gone are the days (at least on all the tables I know) where a table looked at each other a decided who was going to nerf their really cool character concept to go party cleric. I am seeing more and more non cleric parties at my tables, or, clerics who want a frontline or more damage inflicting build rather then being relied on to be the party healer.
It limits WotC in what beast stat blocks they can create. I had to reread that a few times to understand the miscommunication. The they in my #3 Is WotC. My apologies for not making that clear.
I have another topic posted brainstorming ideas to fix one dnd druids Wildshape. You should definitely join that conversation. I don’t agree that the Druid lost utility with the new Wildshape, but I do agree that Wildshape lost utility, and we are brainstorming ideas on the other post on how to fix it so we align when the survey comes out. If enough of us write the same ideas it’s likely we get something close to what we agree upon.
Hiding behind the couch and hiding on the ceiling are mechanically the same. The Druid can give itself a bonus to stealth with a spell and can restrain with a spell. The utility isn’t lost, the thematics are lost. Also I]the spellslots would be lost. WotC has been trying to move away from giving players access to master statblocks. That’s been their design goal for a few years now. An easy fix for them would be to add a Wild Shape/Polymorph tag to all the beast that Wildshape and polymorph work on then they wouldn’t have to worry every time they make a new beast that players might get their hands on it. Also in the post someone suggested instead of just three stats blocks they list like 10 catch all stat blocks so they cover all those unique beast abilities without having to give players access to the actual monster statblock.
Being on the ceiling means you can drop down behind the enemy once they enter the room. Behind the couch requires you to come out of hiding and charge. Different tactical positions to start the fight from.
The druid could cast Pass Without a Trace for a stealth bonus, sure. But you're still missing the utility of giving the enemy the Restrained condition vs just Grappling, as well as the paralytic venom's effect vs trying to knock them unconscious.
That's still a noticeable loss of utility. You'd probably be better off engaging the enemy as a full caster even as a Moon Druid.
The big issue with 10 statblocks is that it'd eat up a ton of paper space. Honestly, the best solution I've seen is to give us a list of traits we can apply to our Beast Form. We then choose say, three traits each time we wildshape into a new form.
So if I wanted to go Spider I'd pick Spider Climb, Web, and Blindsight. If I wanted to be a giant snake I'd pick Swim Speed, Darkvision, and Constrict. If I wanted to be an allosaurus I'd pick Run Speed Boost, Keen Senses, and Pounce. Stuff like that.
It makes each wildshape transformation flexible enough to at least mostly mimic an existing animal in the Monster Manual. Maybe Moon Druids even get a fourth trait or something.
They do allow people choose what CN they use. You start with Wildshape which is the core feature from 5e (yes, WS already needs a rework), then they add two more options with Natures Aid. A healing ability and the find fimiliar spell that was an option from Tasha’s. I’m sure subclasses other than Moon will give even more options for channel Nature. If they redo the Circle of Land Druid they might have some terrain altering ability as a CN. We know Spores and Stars would have a special CN. It’s likely Shepard and Dreams would as well. Saying they are imposing healing on you is like saying they imposed Wildshape on Circle of Land druids in 5e who only really wanted to be Nature wizards and never really used Wildshape. You don’t have to use the feature. I never use heavy armor on my dex based fighter. I don’t feel like they imposed that upon me. The 5e base Druid is all dead levels. You are making a huge fuss about one feature. And If your talking about the later feature that lets you WS and heal at the same time that’s pretty good considering how bad WS is right now.
“I feel a druid should be able to commune and control nature. Not be a healer that can summon and become an animal. Let them get healing spells if they want to heal.”
Also you feel the druid shouldn’t be the thing that it has been for all of 4e, and 5e. Technically 3e as well, but you could do so much with a 3e druid I won’t say I won’t say having animal campions, healing and turning into animals was it’s main thing. You want it to be your idea of the druid should be even though your concept doesn’t align with the games history,. I find that strange. 5e Druids have always had healing, and Wildshape. 4e and 3e let you have an animal companion. 5e recently added and option for this. You don’t have to be a healer. The CN heal doesn’t make you a healer. It’s an option. Again it’s a bonus compared to 5e Druid that would just be a dead level.
Ensnaring strike and entangle cover the restrained condition.
I actually agree the moon Druid might as well not Wildshape as of now. WS is terrible. I’m simply stating the Druid overall hasn’t lost utility. Only Wildshape itself has lost utility.
The list of traits to add WS forms was my suggestion to fix Wildshape. On the brainstorming post others have argued that it might be too much for some players to have to pick what traits to add each time they Wildshape. I personally don’t favor the multiple statblock idea, but I would take that over what’s presented in the UA. I’m 100% on board with the list of traits to add, but I’m willing to push for anything that would correct Wildshape from this form. I realize the surveys work best if many people are going in with the same mindset. If everyone is asking for different things the thing you want to happen doesn’t. Ardent is gone because the community was divided. Do we get another phb race to replace them? I doubt we completely lose the Druid, but we could end up in a dead space were no one is really happy with the final result.
yh ive addressed some of these point like how the early features are just taking the o5e ws table and making them features instead (probably to make it look like there are no dead levels). i dont see an issue with a cn heal but maybe also add a cn terrain thing aswell to please others, cant see adding one would cause the class to be any more or less powerful since there all linked by the one ability and since druids are known for shapeshifting, healing, terrain manipulation and summoning it would cover the last aspect at least. im not too bothered about using templates just make them usable thats why i suggestred to use the rangers primal beast stats and just tweak the hp to be balanced (can give the moon druid more since their role is to tank). the groups just seem flavourable like the experts all get expertiese the priest all get a channelling thing nothing that really binds them apart from a similarly shared mechanic. i do agree there are a lot of ways to make ws balanced and fun but so far 1dnd has gone the complete opposite to o5e and 05e in general wasnt even that op least in my experience, my beast forms are limited by what the dm throws at me (not all that common since beasts are poop as monsters) and the starting ones just had a quick discussion with the dm before the campaign started to make a small list of what creatures i would have seen in a forest (wasnt really all that bad). ive said time and time again a druid going thru the mm isnt as bad as any summoner going thru it to summon beasts or casting polymorph in these cases both summoning and polymorphing is a lot worse
sorry for double post but just noticed that wotc have been sneaky with how many wild shapes you get so at 9th level you max out at 4 per long rest and 1 back per short rest so on a 0-1 short rests per long rest thats 5 so more than normal 5e of 4 but once you get to 2 short rests per long rest there the same at 6 but any more than 2 short rests per long rest o5e have more (8 compared to the 1dnd 7 at 3 short rests). so i guess it would depend how often you get to short rest but its still sneaky
In the spellcasting. Druid get a "create difficult terrain" spell at pretty much every spell level.
druids (especially with tashsas) get a heal/revival spell every spell level bar 4th and 8th and i cant actually think of a 4th or 8th level heal/revival spell for those levels so would be bit harsh to penalise them for that. but you can alway upscale to cover those levels if you want
The new update for druid makes them borderline unplayable. I used to love playing druid but these changes are awful. Why changes wildshape that much? It was a core mechanic of the class and now you make it useless. WoTC continues to disappoint worse than I could've imagined for 2023
TSR/WotC continually experiments upon the classes and changes them. Druid had Wild Shape since 1E AD&D (or even earlier?). For Wild Shape in 1E, the druid could first heal 10-60% HP (10% x 1d6) and use their HP in Wild Shape. In 5E, the Druid uses the Beast HP while in Wild Shape.
Is the issue a matter of game balance, between players or between DMs and Players? What does game balance mean to you? Or what might be another issue?
Rapid feedback is now possible between players and game designers - that was hardly possible in the 70s when I started playing.
Sure Druids can be played as healers and I think that should remain. But we already have clerics as primary healers, so Druid needs something to distinguish itself - particularly since Nature Domain Clerics exist. The problem with the One D&D Druid is that the Healing Blossoms is the only use of Channel Nature that you would use more than 1/day. Thus by default making the Druid primarily a healer (at least until Tier 3 when Druids have no viable uses for Channel Nature other than the Wild Companion).
For Moon Druids not gaining hp of the beast robs them of the tanky-ness needed to be viable front line combatants.
For base Druid losing the ability to be a rat at level 2 hurts their ability to sneak around. Being able to cast find familiar means they don’t lose the ability to scout, but they do lose the ability move themselves around. There are thing a familiar can’t do. Losing the beast hp probably doesn’t hurt the base Druid much.
Losing unique features of beast stat blocks is a big hit to all druids. The land, sea, sky stat blocks lack things that would make you feel like a snake, a spider, a octopus, a shark, or etc.
I can understand wanting to try something new, but WotC missed the mark here.
They are in the priest group, and their history comes from them being a subclass of the cleric. Healing is a primary focus on purpose. The thing that distinguishes them from the other healer is their focus on nature based utility and battlefield control compared to undead turning and buffing others.
I don’t think that makes a Druid by default a primary healer. You are correct that moon Druids have nothing to do with thier CN since Wild shape is so bad, but we have no clue if Land Druid is coming back and if so what CN it might have. We know Spores, Stars, Dreams, and Shepards all have unique CN. I believe the only reason the moon doesn’t have a unique CN is because Wildshape is suppose to be a core feature all druids would find some use for, but clearly that isn’t true with this iteration of Wildshape. Gaining the ability to WS as a bonus action is their unique CN.
A lot of this, imho, really just needs a bit of mechanical tweaking. I mean, this is a playtest, and tweaking numbers is a good thing.
Loss of tankiness? Calculate AC as 10+Wisdom+Light Armor bonus. Give the Moon Druid free Concentration on Barkskin and always have it prepared, or something similar - haven't tested to see how well it scales. But Moon druid was always meant to be tanky via draining spell slots into HP. Maybe lift max HP limit by druid level?
Can't scout as a rat anymore? Well, you can scout as a Small sized animal, and I'm fairly sure the lack of skills listed in the stat block was an oversight. Just add them in, and rolling Wisdom + Stealth or Wisdom + Athletics to get around is pretty nice dice pool. Not being able to turn into a Tiny sized critter is possibly a re-balancing feature, not a bug, at low levels - I've heard more than once that sneaky rat druids are better scouts than rogues and rangers, and its unfair to be a better scout than the classes designed to do it.
Loss of flavor based on animal? Yes, this is a problem, but should be easily fixable - all we need to do is add a list like the abandoned Ardlings had for different beast options. Get a list of, say... ten things for poison fangs, constriction/webs, pouncing, ramming down in a charge, climbing, swimming, extra skill like athletics or stealth, etc. You get to pick one when you assume Wildshape. You can pick two at level 5, maybe?
Why the steed as a part of the core class. replace it and give Steed to the Cavalier.
It's been a staple for Paladins. Although now it's a focal point. A focal point that will be useless for a large number of encounters where you can't use a large creature.
Bold of you to claim that Nature Domain Clerics exist. We're pretty certain that at least half of the PHB Cleric subclasses are going to get sacked, and I don't think anybody would be too sad to see Nature go. They've always kinda intruded on Druids IMO.
Something you might notice about Faithful Steed- it's given at 5th level. You know, the same level where Paladins get Extra Attack AND 2nd-level spells AND +3 Proficiency Bonus. What I mean by this is it's practically a ribbon feature- a pretty powerful ribbon feature, at that.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
You might not, but WotC certainly does, given the description of the 'Priest' class group.