The new wild shapes aren't that bad just need a little tweaking. AC is obviously too low for a character meant to be in melee. A raging bear shouldn't be easier to hit (ac15) than a level 1 wizard (ac16). This only needs a little change, though land and sea form should be spell caster mod ie 8 + wis mod + proficiency giving a ac range of 13-19 in line with barbarians.
Using players base hp's also means they need something else to absorb damage. I don't like the idea of static temp hp's and using healing spells to absorb damage is laughable, the heal spells do not scale at all and are really only useful for bringing people back into the fight. I think that moon druids should get a bonus action physical resist like a better blade version of blade ward. That give the player a choice of absorbing damage, doing extra damage with unarmed strike, or using control tactics with unarmed strike (push, trip, or grapple). This makes for a dynamic class with meaningful choices and seems in line with what they are trying to do with the class.
Something else to consider, JC mentioned magic initiate get shield for druids, but how about taking mage armor instead? If you shift into form before casting mage armor than specific beats general would mean that mage armor would be what was used to calculate AC 13+dex mod which in form would be same is the Druids Wis mod.
The core problem with the One D&D wild shape isn't that it's weak in combat (though it is) -- wild shape in 5e was also weak in combat, outside of moon druids at certain levels. The problem is that they dramatically weakened the exploration utility.
They need to just go back to taking real beast stat blocks, or at least leave it as an option. The problem with the idea of "add-on" features for stuff like spider-climbing is that you'll end up with weird chimera forms, not actual natural beasts, which is what Druids are supposed to turn into.
They need to just go back to taking real beast stat blocks, or at least leave it as an option. The problem with the idea of "add-on" features for stuff like spider-climbing is that you'll end up with weird chimera forms, not actual natural beasts, which is what Druids are supposed to turn into.
Well, they could probably trim the list of beasts down to a modest number of templates, the difference between a lot of beasts is often either cosmetic or just size, particularly if you're mostly interested in out of combat utility, where most of the time you don't care about anything but the movement modes the creature can use and the senses it has.
They need to just go back to taking real beast stat blocks, or at least leave it as an option. The problem with the idea of "add-on" features for stuff like spider-climbing is that you'll end up with weird chimera forms, not actual natural beasts, which is what Druids are supposed to turn into.
Well, they could probably trim the list of beasts down to a modest number of templates, the difference between a lot of beasts is often either cosmetic or just size, particularly if you're mostly interested in out of combat utility, where most of the time you don't care about anything but the movement modes the creature can use and the senses it has.
Or they could just do the obvious thing and use the pre-existing stat blocks rather than attempt to invent a better mousetrap. They're gonna be redoing the Monster Manual as well, so they can tweak the blocks for balance if they're really that concerned about any of them.
Or they could just do the obvious thing and use the pre-existing stat blocks rather than attempt to invent a better mousetrap. They're gonna be redoing the Monster Manual as well, so they can tweak the blocks for balance if they're really that concerned about any of them.
I think the problem is more (a) players needing access to the monster manual, and (b) the sheer volume of stat blocks a player would need to deal with. There are 56 stat blocks at CR 1/4 or less in the monster manual, many of which are pointless or redundant; they could probably cut the list to a dozen and note that these stat blocks can be used to represent multiple different creatures, and nothing of importance would be lost.
There is no easy fix because they are trying to also appease the guy who only wants to be a moose at all levels. At level 1 I’m a moose at level 15 I’m a much stronger moose. Templates work much better for this, but stat blocks work much better for versatile utility and exploration. So another idea of a fix would be to use stat blocks but have a WS tag and only beast with the tag are viable for Wild shape. That would allow them to design beast that might break the game if a player had access by simply not giving it the WS tag. Then change Wild shape so it doesn’t give the Druid the beast’s hp. Instead you get temp hp equal to the size modifier + your Druid level. Size modifiers are small 5, medium 10, large 20, Huge 30. Tiny creatures always only give 1 temp hp. When the those temp hp is gone you revert to your normal form unless you choose to concentrate on the form as if concentrating on spell. Also anytime you are in Wild shape form that is not tiny you can use your beastial strike instead of the attacks in the stat block. Beastial strikes 1d8+ Wis.
Moon Druid gets to add twice their Druid level as temp hp instead, has advantage on any checks to maintain WS form and if a beast stat block has multiattack any of those attacks can be replaced with Beastial Strikes, This would be included in the Combat WS language. Edit: Realizing this doesn’t help the moose feel stronger since they won’t get multi attack. So While in WS at 6th level moon druids gain extra attack with beastial strikes.
I was just about to start a new thread about this. But what I wanted to know from the community is:
In a non-Combat situation, if you had to pick 5 or 6 beast stat blocks to use for Wildshape in 1D&D, what would you pick?
I say non-combat situation because I think it is fairly easy to fix the combat side of things. Most non-Moon druids are not using WS for combat.
If they decide to go to a curated list of stat blocks which ones would you want to see? Up to CR1, the cap for non-Moon druids in 5E
Assuming size is variable:
(Tiny-Large) Spider
(Medium or larger) Badger
(Large) Warhorse
(Tiny-Large) Owl
(Small or Medium) Dog
(Tiny-Large) Octopus
I agree with the list, F because 4 of them are terrestrial, there is not much variety with the flying and aquatic traits, and I think it should have more variety because otherwise the terrestrial one would predominate except on specific occasions where there is no other , and I also insist that the flyer should have 50 or 60 in base movement speed, thus the function of exploring large extensions is highlighted even more, I think that the average base speed of birds is higher than that of terrestrial ones.
Although druids that are NOT from the moon do not usually use it in combat, there must still be some traits that are useful in combat, such as extra armor, the possibility of knocking down or grabbing the opponent, escaping from prey (Aquatic, it is difficult to catch a fish) in case they are surprised when they are animals or in particular situations so that they can react minimally (and not recharge all the fighting traits to the one on the moon.), although significantly less effective than those on the moon that they could even see some of these enhanced traits.
The new wild shapes aren't that bad just need a little tweaking. AC is obviously too low for a character meant to be in melee. A raging bear shouldn't be easier to hit (ac15) than a level 1 wizard (ac16). This only needs a little change, though land and sea form should be spell caster mod ie 8 + wis mod + proficiency giving a ac range of 13-19 in line with barbarians.
Using players base hp's also means they need something else to absorb damage. I don't like the idea of static temp hp's and using healing spells to absorb damage is laughable, the heal spells do not scale at all and are really only useful for bringing people back into the fight. I think that moon druids should get a bonus action physical resist like a better blade version of blade ward. That give the player a choice of absorbing damage, doing extra damage with unarmed strike, or using control tactics with unarmed strike (push, trip, or grapple). This makes for a dynamic class with meaningful choices and seems in line with what they are trying to do with the class.
Something else to consider, JC mentioned magic initiate get shield for druids, but how about taking mage armor instead? If you shift into form before casting mage armor than specific beats general would mean that mage armor would be what was used to calculate AC 13+dex mod which in form would be same is the Druids Wis mod.
For the most part I agree that the templates are not that bad, but need tweaking. The biggest complaint is utility. I would be fine with the AC and HP as is for the base template, if Utility was added. But Moon Druids, as part of Combat Wildshape, get a new calculation of 13+WIS modifier or something along those lines, for AC. I agree with Agilemind that taking a feat to get shield or any other feat to make the class feature work, is bad. So a better AC calculation for Moon druids would be needed. As far as HP, I could see even going back to expending a spell slot to heal, like 5E druid, or even use a BA to expend hit dice to heal, instead of Abjuration spells. But if being able to cast abjuration spells is allowed, as well as other boosts to the templates like AC boosts or Temp HP, then maybe it should be restricted to Abjuration spells on the Primal list.
The cantrip Resistance, is Abjuration, and a reaction in 1D&D, so you have that to help with saving throws with Combat Wildshape. And who knows what they will do with Blade Ward. I don't think it's been in the UA's so far. If that becomes a reaction, and it is already Abjuration, that is another spell that could come in handy, but it's Arcane so would need a feat or multiclass to get.
As far as HP, I could see even going back to expending a spell slot to heal, like 5E druid, or even use a BA to expend hit dice to heal, instead of Abjuration spells.
I think this would be a very good idea for that subclass, that all subclasses have a particular Channel Nature for them, and in the case of the circle of the moon, without a doubt it should refer to wild form, obviously, it should scaled to significantly heal at different levels, for example:
Wild Regeneration: While you are in Wild shape, you can replace a bestial strike or in your bonus action, to spend uses of Channel Nature (You can spend more than 1 at a time) or spell slots, Healing yourself for 1d8+your constitution bonus per spell slot. If you use your Channel Nature slots, they will be considered as a level 2 spell slot, and will later change to a higher level according to your druid level, and additionally you gain that same amount in temporary life points.
I was just about to start a new thread about this. But what I wanted to know from the community is:
In a non-Combat situation, if you had to pick 5 or 6 beast stat blocks to use for Wildshape in 1D&D, what would you pick?
5 or 6 is on the low side, but generally your priorities for scouting are movement types (burrow, climb, fast movement, fly, swim), senses (blindsight, darkvision, keen senses), and stealth. Simply achieving the five movement type pretty much limits you to
Burrow: Badger (because there aren't any other burrowing animals listed)
Climb: Spider (a bunch of animals climb, but spider climb, blindsight, and darkvision makes the spider vastly superior)
Fast Movement: Warhorse (it's fast, it can carry a lot; senses could be better but fast+darkvision is somewhat uncommon)
Flight: Owl (because 120' dark vision, stealth, keen vision)
I would note that a 'pick some features' type of wild shape could just list which features to use for a bunch of standard creatures. For example, we might have the following choices:
Amphibious (swim speed equal to speed)
Blindsight (10' blindsight). For 2 picks, 30'.
Burrower (10' burrow speed). This might be 2 picks.
Climber (climb speed equal to speed). For 2 picks, spider climb.
Darkvision (60' dark vision). For 2 picks, 120'.
Fast (+20' movement)
Flier (60' flight speed, counts as 3 picks)
Hold Breath (can hold its breath for 30 minutes)
Jumper (as the Jump spell)
Keen Senses
Powerful Build (use to get horses, etc, up to reasonable carry totals).
I don't agree that flying costs 3 points, it's too much, you would limit the flying beasts to consume so many points, so it will surely be difficult to add more traits to them (I doubt that at level... let's say that 18 we can spend 6 points or more , so I would be left with almost nothing.), 2 I accept it, but 3??? So by logic amphibian/swimmer (They do the same) They should cost 2 points. (Don't raise the cost)
And in the case of a swimmer and a flyer, along with that you should slow down on land, maybe 10 feet for a swimmer and 20 or 30 feet for a flyer.
Would fast affect only ground speed? Because if it can affect all speeds, it could be that it increases by 50% each speed.
Will spider climbing include moving through webs and feeling the vibrations in them?
I was largely basing point costs on the level of spell required for a similar effect (increased if the spell is short duration, reduced if the spell doesn't require concentration), by which logic I think flight should actually be 4 points, since the fly spell only lasts for 10 minutes. Probably easier to set it as 40' flight for (3) and then you can apply fast on top of that.
I was just about to start a new thread about this. But what I wanted to know from the community is:
In a non-Combat situation, if you had to pick 5 or 6 beast stat blocks to use for Wildshape in 1D&D, what would you pick?
5 or 6 is on the low side, but generally your priorities for scouting are movement types (burrow, climb, fast movement, fly, swim), senses (blindsight, darkvision, keen senses), and stealth. Simply achieving the five movement type pretty much limits you to
Burrow: Badger (because there aren't any other burrowing animals listed)
Climb: Spider (a bunch of animals climb, but spider climb, blindsight, and darkvision makes the spider vastly superior)
Fast Movement: Warhorse (it's fast, it can carry a lot; senses could be better but fast+darkvision is somewhat uncommon)
Flight: Owl (because 120' dark vision, stealth, keen vision)
I would note that a 'pick some features' type of wild shape could just list which features to use for a bunch of standard creatures. For example, we might have the following choices:
Amphibious (swim speed equal to speed)
Blindsight (10' blindsight). For 2 picks, 30'.
Burrower (10' burrow speed). This might be 2 picks.
Climber (climb speed equal to speed). For 2 picks, spider climb.
Darkvision (60' dark vision). For 2 picks, 120'.
Fast (+20' movement)
Flier (60' flight speed, counts as 3 picks)
Hold Breath (can hold its breath for 30 minutes)
Jumper (as the Jump spell)
Keen Senses
Powerful Build (use to get horses, etc, up to reasonable carry totals).
Frog: amphibious, jumper, darkvision, water breathing (5 points)
Actually, the pick some features was my intent on asking what would be your preferred 5 or 6 stat blocks. Knowing what players are looking for in the stat block choices they would make would give a good idea of what choices would be optimal to add to a template.
I don't know about having some point values, but instead have options, which I think someone had mentioned in one of the various threads a while back, by offering things like at level 1 you can choose "beast of burden": You take the form of a beast such as a warhorse, ox, bull, etc which gives powerful build, faster movement speed (+10 feet). "Hunter": You take the form of a beast such as a wolf, panther, or other sleek predetor which gives you faster movement speed (+10 feet), Stealthy, Darkvision. At 5th level, "instectoid": you take the forma of a beast such as a spider, centipede, etc. which gives Spider Climb, web, poison bite. etc..
The names suck, I know, but although I like the idea of the templates and hope they give options, I don't want someone taking the form of a wolf, but taking spider climb. It just doens't feel natural to me.
I was just about to start a new thread about this. But what I wanted to know from the community is:
In a non-Combat situation, if you had to pick 5 or 6 beast stat blocks to use for Wildshape in 1D&D, what would you pick?
I say non-combat situation because I think it is fairly easy to fix the combat side of things. Most non-Moon druids are not using WS for combat.
If they decide to go to a curated list of stat blocks which ones would you want to see? Up to CR1, the cap for non-Moon druids in 5E
Assuming size is variable:
(Tiny-Large) Spider
(Medium or larger) Badger
(Large) Warhorse
(Tiny-Large) Owl
(Small or Medium) Dog
(Tiny-Large) Octopus
I agree with the list, F because 4 of them are terrestrial, there is not much variety with the flying and aquatic traits, and I think it should have more variety because otherwise the terrestrial one would predominate except on specific occasions where there is no other , and I also insist that the flyer should have 50 or 60 in base movement speed, thus the function of exploring large extensions is highlighted even more, I think that the average base speed of birds is higher than that of terrestrial ones.
Although druids that are NOT from the moon do not usually use it in combat, there must still be some traits that are useful in combat, such as extra armor, the possibility of knocking down or grabbing the opponent, escaping from prey (Aquatic, it is difficult to catch a fish) in case they are surprised when they are animals or in particular situations so that they can react minimally (and not recharge all the fighting traits to the one on the moon.), although significantly less effective than those on the moon that they could even see some of these enhanced traits.
Typical values for beasts: walking 40-60 ft flying 60-80ft Burrow 10 ft Swim 30-60 ft
The current UA templates even nerf the movement speed of your forms, sadly. There is just sooo little benefit from them it's ridiculous.
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The new wild shapes aren't that bad just need a little tweaking. AC is obviously too low for a character meant to be in melee. A raging bear shouldn't be easier to hit (ac15) than a level 1 wizard (ac16). This only needs a little change, though land and sea form should be spell caster mod ie 8 + wis mod + proficiency giving a ac range of 13-19 in line with barbarians.
Using players base hp's also means they need something else to absorb damage. I don't like the idea of static temp hp's and using healing spells to absorb damage is laughable, the heal spells do not scale at all and are really only useful for bringing people back into the fight. I think that moon druids should get a bonus action physical resist like a better blade version of blade ward. That give the player a choice of absorbing damage, doing extra damage with unarmed strike, or using control tactics with unarmed strike (push, trip, or grapple). This makes for a dynamic class with meaningful choices and seems in line with what they are trying to do with the class.
Something else to consider, JC mentioned magic initiate get shield for druids, but how about taking mage armor instead? If you shift into form before casting mage armor than specific beats general would mean that mage armor would be what was used to calculate AC 13+dex mod which in form would be same is the Druids Wis mod.
It shouldn't be required to take a feat to make one of your core class abilities actually functional.
I see one or more of three options.
1) better scaling
2) more options
3) a few optional "add-on" choices that scale with level - either by more choices or more powerful choices.
The core problem with the One D&D wild shape isn't that it's weak in combat (though it is) -- wild shape in 5e was also weak in combat, outside of moon druids at certain levels. The problem is that they dramatically weakened the exploration utility.
They need to just go back to taking real beast stat blocks, or at least leave it as an option. The problem with the idea of "add-on" features for stuff like spider-climbing is that you'll end up with weird chimera forms, not actual natural beasts, which is what Druids are supposed to turn into.
Well, they could probably trim the list of beasts down to a modest number of templates, the difference between a lot of beasts is often either cosmetic or just size, particularly if you're mostly interested in out of combat utility, where most of the time you don't care about anything but the movement modes the creature can use and the senses it has.
Or they could just do the obvious thing and use the pre-existing stat blocks rather than attempt to invent a better mousetrap. They're gonna be redoing the Monster Manual as well, so they can tweak the blocks for balance if they're really that concerned about any of them.
I think the problem is more (a) players needing access to the monster manual, and (b) the sheer volume of stat blocks a player would need to deal with. There are 56 stat blocks at CR 1/4 or less in the monster manual, many of which are pointless or redundant; they could probably cut the list to a dozen and note that these stat blocks can be used to represent multiple different creatures, and nothing of importance would be lost.
There is no easy fix because they are trying to also appease the guy who only wants to be a moose at all levels. At level 1 I’m a moose at level 15 I’m a much stronger moose. Templates work much better for this, but stat blocks work much better for versatile utility and exploration. So another idea of a fix would be to use stat blocks but have a WS tag and only beast with the tag are viable for Wild shape. That would allow them to design beast that might break the game if a player had access by simply not giving it the WS tag. Then change Wild shape so it doesn’t give the Druid the beast’s hp. Instead you get temp hp equal to the size modifier + your Druid level. Size modifiers are small 5, medium 10, large 20, Huge 30. Tiny creatures always only give 1 temp hp. When the those temp hp is gone you revert to your normal form unless you choose to concentrate on the form as if concentrating on spell. Also anytime you are in Wild shape form that is not tiny you can use your beastial strike instead of the attacks in the stat block. Beastial strikes 1d8+ Wis.
Moon Druid gets to add twice their Druid level as temp hp instead, has advantage on any checks to maintain WS form and if a beast stat block has multiattack any of those attacks can be replaced with Beastial Strikes, This would be included in the Combat WS language.
Edit: Realizing this doesn’t help the moose feel stronger since they won’t get multi attack. So While in WS at 6th level moon druids gain extra attack with beastial strikes.
I was just about to start a new thread about this. But what I wanted to know from the community is:
In a non-Combat situation, if you had to pick 5 or 6 beast stat blocks to use for Wildshape in 1D&D, what would you pick?
I say non-combat situation because I think it is fairly easy to fix the combat side of things. Most non-Moon druids are not using WS for combat.
If they decide to go to a curated list of stat blocks which ones would you want to see? Up to CR1, the cap for non-Moon druids in 5E
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Assuming size is variable:
(Tiny-Large) Spider
(Medium or larger) Badger
(Large) Warhorse
(Tiny-Large) Owl
(Small or Medium) Dog
(Tiny-Large) Octopus
I agree with the list, F because 4 of them are terrestrial, there is not much variety with the flying and aquatic traits, and I think it should have more variety because otherwise the terrestrial one would predominate except on specific occasions where there is no other , and I also insist that the flyer should have 50 or 60 in base movement speed, thus the function of exploring large extensions is highlighted even more, I think that the average base speed of birds is higher than that of terrestrial ones.
Although druids that are NOT from the moon do not usually use it in combat, there must still be some traits that are useful in combat, such as extra armor, the possibility of knocking down or grabbing the opponent, escaping from prey (Aquatic, it is difficult to catch a fish) in case they are surprised when they are animals or in particular situations so that they can react minimally (and not recharge all the fighting traits to the one on the moon.), although significantly less effective than those on the moon that they could even see some of these enhanced traits.For the most part I agree that the templates are not that bad, but need tweaking. The biggest complaint is utility. I would be fine with the AC and HP as is for the base template, if Utility was added. But Moon Druids, as part of Combat Wildshape, get a new calculation of 13+WIS modifier or something along those lines, for AC. I agree with Agilemind that taking a feat to get shield or any other feat to make the class feature work, is bad. So a better AC calculation for Moon druids would be needed. As far as HP, I could see even going back to expending a spell slot to heal, like 5E druid, or even use a BA to expend hit dice to heal, instead of Abjuration spells. But if being able to cast abjuration spells is allowed, as well as other boosts to the templates like AC boosts or Temp HP, then maybe it should be restricted to Abjuration spells on the Primal list.
The cantrip Resistance, is Abjuration, and a reaction in 1D&D, so you have that to help with saving throws with Combat Wildshape. And who knows what they will do with Blade Ward. I don't think it's been in the UA's so far. If that becomes a reaction, and it is already Abjuration, that is another spell that could come in handy, but it's Arcane so would need a feat or multiclass to get.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I think this would be a very good idea for that subclass, that all subclasses have a particular Channel Nature for them, and in the case of the circle of the moon, without a doubt it should refer to wild form, obviously, it should scaled to significantly heal at different levels, for example:
Wild Regeneration: While you are in Wild shape, you can replace a bestial strike or in your bonus action, to spend uses of Channel Nature (You can spend more than 1 at a time) or spell slots, Healing yourself for 1d8+your constitution bonus per spell slot. If you use your Channel Nature slots, they will be considered as a level 2 spell slot, and will later change to a higher level according to your druid level, and additionally you gain that same amount in temporary life points.
5 or 6 is on the low side, but generally your priorities for scouting are movement types (burrow, climb, fast movement, fly, swim), senses (blindsight, darkvision, keen senses), and stealth. Simply achieving the five movement type pretty much limits you to
I would note that a 'pick some features' type of wild shape could just list which features to use for a bunch of standard creatures. For example, we might have the following choices:
If we look at our preferred list we can then say:
Interesting list :)
I don't agree that flying costs 3 points, it's too much, you would limit the flying beasts to consume so many points, so it will surely be difficult to add more traits to them (I doubt that at level... let's say that 18 we can spend 6 points or more , so I would be left with almost nothing.), 2 I accept it, but 3??? So by logic amphibian/swimmer (They do the same) They should cost 2 points. (Don't raise the cost)
And in the case of a swimmer and a flyer, along with that you should slow down on land, maybe 10 feet for a swimmer and 20 or 30 feet for a flyer.
Would fast affect only ground speed? Because if it can affect all speeds, it could be that it increases by 50% each speed.
Will spider climbing include moving through webs and feeling the vibrations in them?
I was largely basing point costs on the level of spell required for a similar effect (increased if the spell is short duration, reduced if the spell doesn't require concentration), by which logic I think flight should actually be 4 points, since the fly spell only lasts for 10 minutes. Probably easier to set it as 40' flight for (3) and then you can apply fast on top of that.
Actually, the pick some features was my intent on asking what would be your preferred 5 or 6 stat blocks. Knowing what players are looking for in the stat block choices they would make would give a good idea of what choices would be optimal to add to a template.
I don't know about having some point values, but instead have options, which I think someone had mentioned in one of the various threads a while back, by offering things like at level 1 you can choose "beast of burden": You take the form of a beast such as a warhorse, ox, bull, etc which gives powerful build, faster movement speed (+10 feet). "Hunter": You take the form of a beast such as a wolf, panther, or other sleek predetor which gives you faster movement speed (+10 feet), Stealthy, Darkvision. At 5th level, "instectoid": you take the forma of a beast such as a spider, centipede, etc. which gives Spider Climb, web, poison bite. etc..
The names suck, I know, but although I like the idea of the templates and hope they give options, I don't want someone taking the form of a wolf, but taking spider climb. It just doens't feel natural to me.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
Typical values for beasts:
walking 40-60 ft
flying 60-80ft
Burrow 10 ft
Swim 30-60 ft
The current UA templates even nerf the movement speed of your forms, sadly. There is just sooo little benefit from them it's ridiculous.