Spider climbing: 20 and 40 (I found only 2 spiders)
Yes, it's sad, it would seem that no matter how many features we add, we'll lose other rarer ones and lose a bit of mobility... All in pursuit of simplifying and generalizing :/
You know, most of the Beast stat blocks you would ever want are already in the Player's Handbook, not just the Monster Manual. I think the argument about players needing to look through the MM is a bit over-stated.
Forget the PHB, most of them are accessible under Basic Rules, including the Elementals for Moon Druids. You literally just need one player with an internet connection and a printer
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
That’s why I was thinking of you could build a group of features that coincide with particular beasts so if you want to play a wolf or tiger you would pick that general group with the associated features that fit that form, more or less, and you wouldn’t have leopards burrowing or rhinos climbing on ceilings.
So you can choose a form and stick with it but have it scale some (hp, AC, ability scores) as you level.
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
That’s why I was thinking of you could build a group of features that coincide with particular beasts so if you want to play a wolf or tiger you would pick that general group with the associated features that fit that form, more or less, and you wouldn’t have leopards burrowing or rhinos climbing on ceilings.
So you can choose a form and stick with it but have it scale some (hp, AC, ability scores) as you level.
You could still mix and match features that don’t go together naturally. It just doesn’t fit for Druids to pick and choose individual features
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
That’s why I was thinking of you could build a group of features that coincide with particular beasts so if you want to play a wolf or tiger you would pick that general group with the associated features that fit that form, more or less, and you wouldn’t have leopards burrowing or rhinos climbing on ceilings.
So you can choose a form and stick with it but have it scale some (hp, AC, ability scores) as you level.
You could still mix and match features that don’t go together naturally. It just doesn’t fit for Druids to pick and choose individual features
That wasn’t my intention. You wouldn’t pick individual features. You would pick a form that gave you a group of features. Maybe something like move option, utility ability, and combat option. So if you want to be a wolf you get extra movement, pack tactics, darkvision. You would not be able to select a climb speed. But unlike a stat block, other parts of the template scales with level.
Edit: so it’s clear you have to choose a form, which allows only appropriate beasts looks. The form that gives the movement, pack tactics, darkvision would only allow beast shapes like wolf/canine, tiger/feline. You wouldn’t be able to become a spider with that group of features.
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
That’s why I was thinking of you could build a group of features that coincide with particular beasts so if you want to play a wolf or tiger you would pick that general group with the associated features that fit that form, more or less, and you wouldn’t have leopards burrowing or rhinos climbing on ceilings.
So you can choose a form and stick with it but have it scale some (hp, AC, ability scores) as you level.
You could still mix and match features that don’t go together naturally. It just doesn’t fit for Druids to pick and choose individual features
That wasn’t my intention. You wouldn’t pick individual features. You would pick a form that gave you a group of features. Maybe something like move option, utility ability, and combat option. So if you want to be a wolf you get extra movement, pack tactics, darkvision. You would not be able to select a climb speed. But unlike a stat block, other parts of the template scales with level.
Edit: so it’s clear you have to choose a form, which allows only appropriate beasts looks. The form that gives the movement, pack tactics, darkvision would only allow beast shapes like wolf/canine, tiger/feline. You wouldn’t be able to become a spider with that group of features.
Or, alternatively, you could just use a real block, and save a ton of bookkeeping. Outside of Moon, the form isn't supposed to scale at high levels, and Moon already had decent tools for scaling. Just tweak beast stats or CR for anything particularly troublesome, and maybe include some language reminding DM's that they have the ultimate say in which forms are usable for a character.
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
You have a choice between picking features, an enormous table full of redundant entries, or a list of representative templates that apply to multiple similar creatures. Doing a bit of design
Wild Shape (Druid 1)
When you use Wild Shape, you pick a size and a template, and either darkvision 60' or keen sense (vision). You automatically get keen sense (smell).
Size
Tiny creatures have Strength 2, Dexterity equal to Wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 20', natural attack damage is 1. Minimum size 1 lb (large rat)
Small creatures have Dexterity equal to Wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 30', natural attack damage is 1d4+Dexterity, AC is 10+Wisdom Bonus.
Medium creatures have Strength and Dexterity equal to wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 40', natural attack damage is 1d6+Dexterity, AC is 10+Wisdom Bonus.
Large creatures have Strength equal to wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 40', natural attack damage is 1d8+Dexterity, AC is 10+Wisdom Bonus.
Templates
Burrower: has a 5' burrow speed. Must be Tiny.
Climber: has climb speed equal to speed, advantage on Dexterity checks to maintain balance, and may base jumping on Dexterity. May not be Large.
Lurker: has advantage on stealth checks. May not be Large.
Runner: has +20' speed.
Combat Wild Shape (Moon Druid 3)
You may add a combat template to one of the base templates. Each one of them grants special attacks, as follows:
Charger (runner): If you move at least 20' towards a foe and hit with a natural weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to trip and do an extra natural weapon die of damage.
Constrictor (lurker): You may grab as a bonus action, or to make a natural weapon attack against a grabbed target.
Mauler (any): you may make a natural weapon attack as a bonus action.
Pack Hunter (any): You gain pack tactics. You may help or trip as a bonus action.
Poisonous (any): You have advantage on stealth checks. If you hit with a natural weapon attack, you may do an extra die of poison damage as a bonus action.
Pouncer (any): If you move at least 20' towards a foe and hit with an attack, you may use a bonus action to trip. If the trip succeeds, you may make a natural weapon attack against that target as part of the same action.
Trampler (runner): You may trip as a bonus action. Your natural weapon attacks do an extra die against prone targets.
Exotic Wild Shape (Druid 5)
You may turn into a creature as small as a mouse. You gain the following form options
Amphibious: swim speed equal to speed, can either breathe both water and air, or breathe one and hold breath for 30 minutes.
Aquatic: swim speed 50', can breathe water, cannot breathe air.
Giant Form: you may ignore the maximum size on any first level form.
Wall-Walker: You gain climb speed equal to speed and spider climb. At this level, must be Tiny.
Would like to point out that you wouldn’t be able to cast Mage Armor while Wildshape as a Moon Druid. You can only cast Abjuration spells that don’t have material components. And Mage Armor has one.
When you use Wild Shape, you pick a size and a template, and either darkvision 60' or keen sense (vision). You automatically get keen sense (smell).
Size
Tiny creatures have Strength 2, Dexterity equal to Wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 20', natural attack damage is 1. Minimum size 1 lb (large rat)
Small creatures have Dexterity equal to Wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 30', natural attack damage is 1d4+Dexterity, AC is 10+Wisdom Bonus.
Medium creatures have Strength and Dexterity equal to wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 40', natural attack damage is 1d6+Dexterity, AC is 10+Wisdom Bonus.
Large creatures have Strength equal to wisdom, all other ability scores normal. Speed 40', natural attack damage is 1d8+Dexterity, AC is 10+Wisdom Bonus.
Templates
Burrower: has a 5' burrow speed. Must be Tiny.
Climber: has climb speed equal to speed, advantage on Dexterity checks to maintain balance, and may base jumping on Dexterity. May not be Large.
Lurker: has advantage on stealth checks. May not be Large.
Runner: has +20' speed.
Combat Wild Shape (Moon Druid 3)
You may add a combat template to one of the base templates. Each one of them grants special attacks, as follows:
Charger (runner): If you move at least 20' towards a foe and hit with a natural weapon attack, you may use a bonus action to trip and do an extra natural weapon die of damage.
Constrictor (lurker): You may grab as a bonus action, or to make a natural weapon attack against a grabbed target.
Mauler (any): you may make a natural weapon attack as a bonus action.
Pack Hunter (any): You gain pack tactics. You may help or trip as a bonus action.
Poisonous (any): You have advantage on stealth checks. If you hit with a natural weapon attack, you may do an extra die of poison damage as a bonus action.
Pouncer (any): If you move at least 20' towards a foe and hit with an attack, you may use a bonus action to trip. If the trip succeeds, you may make a natural weapon attack against that target as part of the same action.
Trampler (runner): You may trip as a bonus action. Your natural weapon attacks do an extra die against prone targets.
Exotic Wild Shape (Druid 5)
You may turn into a creature as small as a mouse. You gain the following form options
Amphibious: swim speed equal to speed, can either breathe both water and air, or breathe one and hold breath for 30 minutes.
Aquatic: swim speed 50', can breathe water, cannot breathe air.
Giant Form: you may ignore the maximum size on any first level form.
Wall-Walker: You gain climb speed equal to speed and spider climb. At this level, must be Tiny.
This list is interesting about a possible growth of the 1st 5 levels, I suppose you would put more improvements for the wild shape that affect all druids at levels 9 and 13, leaving levels 7, 11 and 15 as potentially free in case those who would do the one DnD take advantage of them at least some of them for improvements that do not include the wild form.
The tiny form that armor would have? And the stats of the Giant form? Disadvantage in agility? (Personally I wouldn't put the giant shape for everyone, only for the circle of the moon, and not for level 5.)
Picking features isn’t right for Druids; they’re supposed to turn into natural, real beasts, not weird chimeras
Quite. To me the rules don't feel right, because the whole assumption behind them is that wildshaping is just another weapon. And the main obstacle to use cases that spring to mind is the time limit. For example I might want to use it as a means of travel (a deer in a hurry can do about 30 miles in a day), or concealment, in which case I might want to be an animal for days.
I want to be able to turn into a cat and curl up by the fireplace if I find there's too much wildlife in the mattress I'm expected to sleep on. I want to turn into a horse and be stolen by the bandits. But if I can't break the one hour time limit these applications are probably not possible.
Comparing 3e and 5e I think there was some kind of rule laid down: "Noone shall be turned into an animal for more than a few hours".
I still feel that using the beast stat block is the most elegant solution for handling Wildshape. Templates are just limiters on what you can simulate, as there are only so many abilities and options Wizards can give us with them without making a template for every animal in the Monster Manual.
If templates must happen make using the actual beast statblock an optional rule at least. That way people who don't want to bother looking at the beast options can use their template and those of us who don't mind a little extra homework don't have to lose massive amounts of utility and flavor.
I still feel that using the beast stat block is the most elegant solution for handling Wildshape. Templates are just limiters on what you can simulate, as there are only so many abilities and options Wizards can give us with them without making a template for every animal in the Monster Manual.
If templates must happen make using the actual beast statblock an optional rule at least. That way people who don't want to bother looking at the beast options can use their template and those of us who don't mind a little extra homework don't have to lose massive amounts of utility and flavor.
The problem is they basically stopped making beast beast because they didn’t want to give druids access to anything game breaking.
Plus once you've covered all the basic animals, there's not exactly much room for anything new or different, since anything particularly different typically gets classified as a Monstrosity.
I still feel that using the beast stat block is the most elegant solution for handling Wildshape. Templates are just limiters on what you can simulate, as there are only so many abilities and options Wizards can give us with them without making a template for every animal in the Monster Manual.
If templates must happen make using the actual beast statblock an optional rule at least. That way people who don't want to bother looking at the beast options can use their template and those of us who don't mind a little extra homework don't have to lose massive amounts of utility and flavor.
The problem is they basically stopped making beast beast because they didn’t want to give druids access to anything game breaking.
Which I find kind of hilarious, it's basically them admitting the CR system is totally broken. Though I would point out the Polymorph is just as bad a culprit for this as WS. So it makes no sense to limit WS without also limiting Polymorph.
The problem is they basically stopped making beast beast because they didn’t want to give druids access to anything game breaking.
Eh, it's mostly because there's a quite limited range of options for new things that are actually beasts. Other than skunks, not sure I see a major gap where I can't just go "treat this animal as this other animal".
For me the nessecity of stat blocks was dms treated skills/ use differently. Some dms didn't like trying to "smell" your way to solutions unless it was written out like a Tressym.
Having stat blocks ment I could adapt my choices based on the dm. Either go for a higher stat or a tailored feature.
I enjoyed going through new books to see new beast statblocks. It gave me a 80%player 20% dm place to explore both aspects with out causing meta problems......until wotc started gating features and beasts due to feature fears.
there are the three main groups that interact with stat blocks. Casting(we'll include polymorph and summons), druids, and pet masters
Now casters generally don't modify the stat block to function so I actually doubt they are the main reason stat blocks were the problem.
The druid on the other hand kept some base class features that had potential synergies. This affected some of the stat block design.
And pet classes just caused fights around phb ranger. Wich I suspect wotc was under a conflict avoidance policy. Never allowed to actually dis agree with either side.
the two beastmaster sytem kind of worked. It's not ideal but almost everyone(who wanted a beast)got a playspace. Templates and stat options mixed could work.
Feature shopping could also work instead but it would need to be designed really really well.
The problem is they basically stopped making beast beast because they didn’t want to give druids access to anything game breaking.
If a beast has some gamebreaking ability just give it a CR that a druid can't turn into. Or heck, maybe it a Legendary action or some new form of action that you don't get when you assume the wildshape. There are already ways to stop wildshape from accessing specific forms and abilities baked into the system. Designers just need to ask themselves "do we want druids to get their hands on this tool" and then classify them appropriately.
Plus once you've covered all the basic animals, there's not exactly much room for anything new or different, since anything particularly different typically gets classified as a Monstrosity.
Not necessarily. 5e is currently missing some beast options that 3.5e had, like dire bear and giant bear. Dire and Giant variants of existing animals would be a fine way to ensure there's more variety in the higher CR range for druids to use wildshape for, as well as give some options for those who want to only turn into various flavors of a specific animal type.
It's also a fantasy world though, and there's a ton of space for "naturally occurring, mystical animals" that don't fit under the Monstrosity category at all. Heck, Wizards is already moving toward letting druids become stuff like Owlbears in OneDnD, as it was one of the specific examples for the template.
Dinosaurs are also still largely untapped as a resource. Especially if they boosted the allosaurus to CR 3 or 4, opening up space for stuff like the Utahraptor (CR2), actually accurate depictions of various hadrosaurs (CR3 at least, No way something that big should be CR 1/4), and Dilophosaurus (CR1). Then we could have things like spinosaurus or Carcharodontosaurus for CR 6, giving druids a little higher-end variety aside from mammoth.
I also personally think there should be a sub-class or a feat or something that lets druids turn into plants as well. More variety in forms and character themes.
Technically you could classify "natural" magic animals as beasts, but the design philosophy seems to be that Beast is used for real-world animals and the dire/giant versions of them.
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I add:
Yes, it's sad, it would seem that no matter how many features we add, we'll lose other rarer ones and lose a bit of mobility... All in pursuit of simplifying and generalizing :/
You know, most of the Beast stat blocks you would ever want are already in the Player's Handbook, not just the Monster Manual. I think the argument about players needing to look through the MM is a bit over-stated.
Forget the PHB, most of them are accessible under Basic Rules, including the Elementals for Moon Druids. You literally just need one player with an internet connection and a printer
That’s why I was thinking of you could build a group of features that coincide with particular beasts so if you want to play a wolf or tiger you would pick that general group with the associated features that fit that form, more or less, and you wouldn’t have leopards burrowing or rhinos climbing on ceilings.
So you can choose a form and stick with it but have it scale some (hp, AC, ability scores) as you level.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
You could still mix and match features that don’t go together naturally. It just doesn’t fit for Druids to pick and choose individual features
That wasn’t my intention. You wouldn’t pick individual features. You would pick a form that gave you a group of features. Maybe something like move option, utility ability, and combat option. So if you want to be a wolf you get extra movement, pack tactics, darkvision. You would not be able to select a climb speed. But unlike a stat block, other parts of the template scales with level.
Edit: so it’s clear you have to choose a form, which allows only appropriate beasts looks. The form that gives the movement, pack tactics, darkvision would only allow beast shapes like wolf/canine, tiger/feline. You wouldn’t be able to become a spider with that group of features.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Or, alternatively, you could just use a real block, and save a ton of bookkeeping. Outside of Moon, the form isn't supposed to scale at high levels, and Moon already had decent tools for scaling. Just tweak beast stats or CR for anything particularly troublesome, and maybe include some language reminding DM's that they have the ultimate say in which forms are usable for a character.
You have a choice between picking features, an enormous table full of redundant entries, or a list of representative templates that apply to multiple similar creatures. Doing a bit of design
Wild Shape (Druid 1)
When you use Wild Shape, you pick a size and a template, and either darkvision 60' or keen sense (vision). You automatically get keen sense (smell).
Size
Templates
Combat Wild Shape (Moon Druid 3)
You may add a combat template to one of the base templates. Each one of them grants special attacks, as follows:
Exotic Wild Shape (Druid 5)
You may turn into a creature as small as a mouse. You gain the following form options
Would like to point out that you wouldn’t be able to cast Mage Armor while Wildshape as a Moon Druid. You can only cast Abjuration spells that don’t have material components. And Mage Armor has one.
This list is interesting about a possible growth of the 1st 5 levels, I suppose you would put more improvements for the wild shape that affect all druids at levels 9 and 13, leaving levels 7, 11 and 15 as potentially free in case those who would do the one DnD take advantage of them at least some of them for improvements that do not include the wild form.
The tiny form that armor would have?
And the stats of the Giant form? Disadvantage in agility? (Personally I wouldn't put the giant shape for everyone, only for the circle of the moon, and not for level 5.)
Quite. To me the rules don't feel right, because the whole assumption behind them is that wildshaping is just another weapon. And the main obstacle to use cases that spring to mind is the time limit. For example I might want to use it as a means of travel (a deer in a hurry can do about 30 miles in a day), or concealment, in which case I might want to be an animal for days.
I want to be able to turn into a cat and curl up by the fireplace if I find there's too much wildlife in the mattress I'm expected to sleep on. I want to turn into a horse and be stolen by the bandits. But if I can't break the one hour time limit these applications are probably not possible.
Comparing 3e and 5e I think there was some kind of rule laid down: "Noone shall be turned into an animal for more than a few hours".
You could probably cast it before you change.
I still feel that using the beast stat block is the most elegant solution for handling Wildshape. Templates are just limiters on what you can simulate, as there are only so many abilities and options Wizards can give us with them without making a template for every animal in the Monster Manual.
If templates must happen make using the actual beast statblock an optional rule at least. That way people who don't want to bother looking at the beast options can use their template and those of us who don't mind a little extra homework don't have to lose massive amounts of utility and flavor.
The problem is they basically stopped making beast beast because they didn’t want to give druids access to anything game breaking.
Plus once you've covered all the basic animals, there's not exactly much room for anything new or different, since anything particularly different typically gets classified as a Monstrosity.
Which I find kind of hilarious, it's basically them admitting the CR system is totally broken. Though I would point out the Polymorph is just as bad a culprit for this as WS. So it makes no sense to limit WS without also limiting Polymorph.
Eh, it's mostly because there's a quite limited range of options for new things that are actually beasts. Other than skunks, not sure I see a major gap where I can't just go "treat this animal as this other animal".
For me the nessecity of stat blocks was dms treated skills/ use differently. Some dms didn't like trying to "smell" your way to solutions unless it was written out like a Tressym.
Having stat blocks ment I could adapt my choices based on the dm. Either go for a higher stat or a tailored feature.
I enjoyed going through new books to see new beast statblocks. It gave me a 80%player 20% dm place to explore both aspects with out causing meta problems......until wotc started gating features and beasts due to feature fears.
there are the three main groups that interact with stat blocks. Casting(we'll include polymorph and summons), druids, and pet masters
Now casters generally don't modify the stat block to function so I actually doubt they are the main reason stat blocks were the problem.
The druid on the other hand kept some base class features that had potential synergies. This affected some of the stat block design.
And pet classes just caused fights around phb ranger. Wich I suspect wotc was under a conflict avoidance policy. Never allowed to actually dis agree with either side.
the two beastmaster sytem kind of worked. It's not ideal but almost everyone(who wanted a beast)got a playspace. Templates and stat options mixed could work.
Feature shopping could also work instead but it would need to be designed really really well.
If a beast has some gamebreaking ability just give it a CR that a druid can't turn into. Or heck, maybe it a Legendary action or some new form of action that you don't get when you assume the wildshape. There are already ways to stop wildshape from accessing specific forms and abilities baked into the system. Designers just need to ask themselves "do we want druids to get their hands on this tool" and then classify them appropriately.
Not necessarily. 5e is currently missing some beast options that 3.5e had, like dire bear and giant bear. Dire and Giant variants of existing animals would be a fine way to ensure there's more variety in the higher CR range for druids to use wildshape for, as well as give some options for those who want to only turn into various flavors of a specific animal type.
It's also a fantasy world though, and there's a ton of space for "naturally occurring, mystical animals" that don't fit under the Monstrosity category at all. Heck, Wizards is already moving toward letting druids become stuff like Owlbears in OneDnD, as it was one of the specific examples for the template.
Dinosaurs are also still largely untapped as a resource. Especially if they boosted the allosaurus to CR 3 or 4, opening up space for stuff like the Utahraptor (CR2), actually accurate depictions of various hadrosaurs (CR3 at least, No way something that big should be CR 1/4), and Dilophosaurus (CR1). Then we could have things like spinosaurus or Carcharodontosaurus for CR 6, giving druids a little higher-end variety aside from mammoth.
I also personally think there should be a sub-class or a feat or something that lets druids turn into plants as well. More variety in forms and character themes.
Technically you could classify "natural" magic animals as beasts, but the design philosophy seems to be that Beast is used for real-world animals and the dire/giant versions of them.