A caster dipping Bladelock to be better at melee is already delaying their casting to do so. That's an acceptable trade already, there's no reason to nerf Bladelock further. And if you're going 5 levels for Extra Attack that's a full-on multiclass, no different than if you did the same using Ranger or Paladin.
A caster dipping Bladelock to be better at melee is already delaying their casting to do so.
No-one has ever worried about primary spellcasters taking bladelock dips -- the hexblade dips were always paladin, sword bard, and valor bard, and you were taking it to change your attack stat to charisma. Arguably the better fix would just to make it so those classes can just do it without multiclassing (say, a feat tax instead).
A Paladin with Magic Initiate: Primal, Shillelagh, and a club is doing the same damage as a longsword or rapier from level 1, and doesn't require a Warlock dip.
honestly i hope Hex Warrior in the Pact Weapon cantrip moves to something like "When you reach 2nd level as a Warlock," verbiage. third level would be even better. a min-max dip should be a difficult choice, not a requirement.
You can't really move the casting-stat-for-melee-attacks feature higher up.
why not? because a level 1 mage might feel suboptimal at melee range? o, hubris! o, calamity!
or is it that a one-shot lock-a-din only wanted to dip one level, not two? because that one was the point.
How'd you feel playing a Wizard that doesn't get to add their Int to spellcasting until 3rd level?
Clerics are meant to be gishes, and they never get to use Wis for their weapon attacks, same for Bladesinger, Valor Bard, and Sword's Bard...
Cool then just give Warlocks full caster spell slots. :)
I believe it is futile to try to deter 1 level dips by making the 1st level feature weaker. The proper way to do it is to make the 3rd level feature more enticing.
The problem with 5E Hexblade is that it is so goddamn front loaded. Rework Hexblade's Curse into an invocation, and give it requirement 3rd level Warlock. Hell, make it an invocation that modifies Hex.
Hexblade's Hex
You learn how to make your Hex reveal weaknesses in your foe's defense instead of dealing extra necrotic damage to them.
When you cast Hex, you can choose to cast this modified version instead.
Instead of being able to deal extra necrotic damage to the target when you hit with an attack roll, any attack you make against the cursed target is a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20 on the d20.
If the cursed target dies, you regain hit points equal to your warlock level + your Spellcasting modifier (minimum of 1 hit point)
At Higher Levels. When you cast a Hex modified by this Invocation using a Spell Slot of 2nd level, the attack is a critical hit on a roll of 18, 19, or 20, on the d20. When cast using a Spell Slot of 3rd level, on a roll of 17, 18, 19 or 20 on the d20. When cast using a Spell Slot of 4th level, on a roll of 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20 on the d20. When cast using a Spell Slot of 5th level, on a roll of 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 or 20 on the d20.
Otherwise the modified spell uses the statistics for the regular Hex spell.
A caster dipping Bladelock to be better at melee is already delaying their casting to do so. That's an acceptable trade already, there's no reason to nerf Bladelock further. And if you're going 5 levels for Extra Attack that's a full-on multiclass, no different than if you did the same using Ranger or Paladin.
And that's why being a half-caster is part of the equation. Adding half of Warlock levels to your spell slots is part of the trade-off.
A Paladin with Magic Initiate: Primal, Shillelagh, and a club is doing the same damage as a longsword or rapier from level 1, and doesn't require a Warlock dip.
But it takes a feat and get stuck to the quarterstaff weapon, limiting you very much to the possible item loot.
If this Warlock proposal goes through I'd take Lessons of the First Ones for Magic Initiate Primal with Shillelagh to make a club a off hand weapon to use with charisma. Summon a shortsword with my pact cantrip for my primary weapon. A d8 averages 5.5 damage, and d6 + 3 averages 6.5. At level 5 (assuming a casting bump at 4) that's an anemic 20.5 average, or between 11 and 28 DPR. Eldritch Blast averages 9.5 on d10+4 or a range from 10 to 28.
Shillelagh is the only way to make two-weapon fighting work with the blade pact Warlock, and without heavy weapons and polearm master a d8 light weapon is as good as it gets for us.
Lifedrinker doesn't benefit it, but Spirit Shroud would. At level 9 that would be an additional 3d8 radiant damage per turn. At level 17 that would be an additional 6d8.
It would be foolish to take Spirit Shroud as the third level Mystic Arcanum. It's good, but it's not once per day good.
A Paladin with Magic Initiate: Primal, Shillelagh, and a club is doing the same damage as a longsword or rapier from level 1, and doesn't require a Warlock dip.
But they can't pick up a ranged cantrip, the Shield spell, the Hex spell, and the Find Familiar spell at the same time. Which they can with Warlock-1.
A caster dipping Bladelock to be better at melee is already delaying their casting to do so. That's an acceptable trade already, there's no reason to nerf Bladelock further. And if you're going 5 levels for Extra Attack that's a full-on multiclass, no different than if you did the same using Ranger or Paladin.
And that's why being a half-caster is part of the equation. Adding half of Warlock levels to your spell slots is part of the trade-off.
With the new way half-casters work, Warlock-1 doesn't delay your spell slot progression at all, and only delays your spell-preparation/known by 1 level. In exchange you get: Hex, EB (mostly useless now), 2 arcane cantrips (e.g. Chill Touch + Minor Illusion), the Shield spell, medium armour proficiency (for druids & bard), and Find Familiar, plus the ability to use your casting stat for a weapon.
I hated seeing people dip Hexblade for the goodies it provided (although my first character was a Hexblade 1/Swords Bard) but it does offer a lot to other classes.
A Paladin with Magic Initiate: Primal, Shillelagh, and a club is doing the same damage as a longsword or rapier from level 1, and doesn't require a Warlock dip.
But it takes a feat and get stuck to the quarterstaff weapon, limiting you very much to the possible item loot.
You're right, but I would be fairly surprised if this is still an issue in the upcoming books. If WotC doesn't get the memo that their players are picking signature weapons at level 1 and sticking with them for life, then idk what to even say.
DMs are out here going, "well, I rolled a Staff of Striking, but the player uses a greatsword... Guess it's a Greatsword of Striking now!" Might as well make it official and just decouple effects from form altogether.
What do you think of the solution that Jeremy Crawford has proposed in his latest video? I mean, the warlock's spell level progression is like a full caster, but he gets fewer spell slots than a full caster.
We would have to see how that is reflected, since I understand that the level of the slots would not go beyond lvl 5.
With the new way half-casters work, Warlock-1 doesn't delay your spell slot progression at all, and only delays your spell-preparation/known by 1 level. In exchange you get: Hex, EB (mostly useless now), 2 arcane cantrips (e.g. Chill Touch + Minor Illusion), the Shield spell, medium armour proficiency (for druids & bard), and Find Familiar, plus the ability to use your casting stat for a weapon.
I do agree with you that dipping into Warlock shouldn't give medium armor but the rest are fine. Most of these can be grabbed with your starting feat spent on Magic Initiate. EB is useless on a dip now, and Hex is competing with anything else you could be concentrating on instead. Attacking with your casting stat is good but you can never dump physical stats entirely either.
If you take Magic Initiate: Primal you can take the Hunter's Mark spell which, for a weapon using character, is better than Hex. A level 1 slot gives you d6 per hit, not d6 period.
Hex is barely worth a level 1 slot, and certainly not a level 3 or 5 slot.
If you take Magic Initiate: Primal you can take the Hunter's Mark spell which, for a weapon using character, is better than Hex. A level 1 slot gives you d6 per hit, not d6 period.
I would not count on hunter's mark being unchanged in the next UA.
What do you think of the solution that Jeremy Crawford has proposed in his latest video? I mean, the warlock's spell level progression is like a full caster, but he gets fewer spell slots than a full caster.
We would have to see how that is reflected, since I understand that the level of the slots would not go beyond lvl 5.
Perhaps - for me, the issue isn't the idea of the changes, but the implementation, much like the changes to druid wild shape. Right questions asked, wrong or incomplete answers.
As it stands, there is really only one way to build a Warlock if you want to be more of a spellcaster as opposed to a melee combatant or pet class, and the illusion of choice is something I really can't stand. The Warlock really needs faster progression even if they don't want to provide spell slots over level 5, even if it ends up with them having more of those spell slots than other spellcasters.
I understand the challenges, they need a chassis that can somehow be viable with 3 wildly different builds and playstyles (melee combatant, pet user, primary spellcaster), that feels unique, and appears viable at first glance - and doesn't depend on a specific build progression that allows no deviation in order to be so. It's a tall order.
I also sincerely hope that there is a round 2 of playtest releases for every class. Even the ones that feel right should get a second look after more refinement, and others such as the Warlock and Druid really need some different ideas put forth to see if they can do better without destroying class balance.
As it stands, there is really only one way to build a Warlock if you want to be more of a spellcaster as opposed to a melee combatant or pet class, and the illusion of choice is something I really can't stand.
I wouldn't say that there's only one way. There is a significant false choice effect, but you still have 1 free invocation at level 2-4 (the other being agonizing blast), 2 at level 5-8 (you replace agonizing blast, and take MA at 5 and 7), 3 at level 9-14, and 4 at level 15+.
I understand the challenges, they need a chassis that can somehow be viable with 3 wildly different builds and playstyles (melee combatant, pet user, primary spellcaster), that feels unique, and appears viable at first glance - and doesn't depend on a specific build progression that allows no deviation in order to be so. It's a tall order.
Were there really 3 distinct play-styles pre one warlock? Were tome and chain that different. They were pretty much primary casters. Blade sure it was more gish in idea, but that really isn't different than bladesingers etc. Other than potentially blade the pacts didn't massively effect your play style. Yeah it had an effect a invisible familiar is a great scout but you weren't a pet class. I don't think I want to tie a players level 1 decision into you are now a pet class.
Then they'd make Hunter's Mark as worthless as Hex now is.
"Worthless" is just hyperbolic. They're still really close to one another numerically, as folks on Reddit have shown. Orange line is new hex and blue is old:
You have a lot better things to concentrate on than Hex, but that's nothing new either.
Making Hex Master result in Hex not requiring concentration (just like rangers don't need to concentrate for hunter's mark) would likely make hex worth using after tier 1, though it might wind up being too good (might have to do something like eliminating the duration increase for higher level casting).
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A caster dipping Bladelock to be better at melee is already delaying their casting to do so. That's an acceptable trade already, there's no reason to nerf Bladelock further. And if you're going 5 levels for Extra Attack that's a full-on multiclass, no different than if you did the same using Ranger or Paladin.
No-one has ever worried about primary spellcasters taking bladelock dips -- the hexblade dips were always paladin, sword bard, and valor bard, and you were taking it to change your attack stat to charisma. Arguably the better fix would just to make it so those classes can just do it without multiclassing (say, a feat tax instead).
A Paladin with Magic Initiate: Primal, Shillelagh, and a club is doing the same damage as a longsword or rapier from level 1, and doesn't require a Warlock dip.
Cool then just give Warlocks full caster spell slots. :)
I believe it is futile to try to deter 1 level dips by making the 1st level feature weaker. The proper way to do it is to make the 3rd level feature more enticing.
The problem with 5E Hexblade is that it is so goddamn front loaded. Rework Hexblade's Curse into an invocation, and give it requirement 3rd level Warlock. Hell, make it an invocation that modifies Hex.
And that's why being a half-caster is part of the equation. Adding half of Warlock levels to your spell slots is part of the trade-off.
But it takes a feat and get stuck to the quarterstaff weapon, limiting you very much to the possible item loot.
If this Warlock proposal goes through I'd take Lessons of the First Ones for Magic Initiate Primal with Shillelagh to make a club a off hand weapon to use with charisma. Summon a shortsword with my pact cantrip for my primary weapon. A d8 averages 5.5 damage, and d6 + 3 averages 6.5. At level 5 (assuming a casting bump at 4) that's an anemic 20.5 average, or between 11 and 28 DPR. Eldritch Blast averages 9.5 on d10+4 or a range from 10 to 28.
Shillelagh is the only way to make two-weapon fighting work with the blade pact Warlock, and without heavy weapons and polearm master a d8 light weapon is as good as it gets for us.
Lifedrinker doesn't benefit it, but Spirit Shroud would. At level 9 that would be an additional 3d8 radiant damage per turn. At level 17 that would be an additional 6d8.
It would be foolish to take Spirit Shroud as the third level Mystic Arcanum. It's good, but it's not once per day good.
But they can't pick up a ranged cantrip, the Shield spell, the Hex spell, and the Find Familiar spell at the same time. Which they can with Warlock-1.
With the new way half-casters work, Warlock-1 doesn't delay your spell slot progression at all, and only delays your spell-preparation/known by 1 level. In exchange you get: Hex, EB (mostly useless now), 2 arcane cantrips (e.g. Chill Touch + Minor Illusion), the Shield spell, medium armour proficiency (for druids & bard), and Find Familiar, plus the ability to use your casting stat for a weapon.
Those are some good points.
I hated seeing people dip Hexblade for the goodies it provided (although my first character was a Hexblade 1/Swords Bard) but it does offer a lot to other classes.
It's just kind of dreck to actually play as.
You're right, but I would be fairly surprised if this is still an issue in the upcoming books. If WotC doesn't get the memo that their players are picking signature weapons at level 1 and sticking with them for life, then idk what to even say.
DMs are out here going, "well, I rolled a Staff of Striking, but the player uses a greatsword... Guess it's a Greatsword of Striking now!" Might as well make it official and just decouple effects from form altogether.
What do you think of the solution that Jeremy Crawford has proposed in his latest video? I mean, the warlock's spell level progression is like a full caster, but he gets fewer spell slots than a full caster.
We would have to see how that is reflected, since I understand that the level of the slots would not go beyond lvl 5.
I do agree with you that dipping into Warlock shouldn't give medium armor but the rest are fine. Most of these can be grabbed with your starting feat spent on Magic Initiate. EB is useless on a dip now, and Hex is competing with anything else you could be concentrating on instead. Attacking with your casting stat is good but you can never dump physical stats entirely either.
If you take Magic Initiate: Primal you can take the Hunter's Mark spell which, for a weapon using character, is better than Hex. A level 1 slot gives you d6 per hit, not d6 period.
Hex is barely worth a level 1 slot, and certainly not a level 3 or 5 slot.
I would not count on hunter's mark being unchanged in the next UA.
Then they'd make Hunter's Mark as worthless as Hex now is.
Perhaps - for me, the issue isn't the idea of the changes, but the implementation, much like the changes to druid wild shape. Right questions asked, wrong or incomplete answers.
As it stands, there is really only one way to build a Warlock if you want to be more of a spellcaster as opposed to a melee combatant or pet class, and the illusion of choice is something I really can't stand. The Warlock really needs faster progression even if they don't want to provide spell slots over level 5, even if it ends up with them having more of those spell slots than other spellcasters.
I understand the challenges, they need a chassis that can somehow be viable with 3 wildly different builds and playstyles (melee combatant, pet user, primary spellcaster), that feels unique, and appears viable at first glance - and doesn't depend on a specific build progression that allows no deviation in order to be so. It's a tall order.
I also sincerely hope that there is a round 2 of playtest releases for every class. Even the ones that feel right should get a second look after more refinement, and others such as the Warlock and Druid really need some different ideas put forth to see if they can do better without destroying class balance.
I wouldn't say that there's only one way. There is a significant false choice effect, but you still have 1 free invocation at level 2-4 (the other being agonizing blast), 2 at level 5-8 (you replace agonizing blast, and take MA at 5 and 7), 3 at level 9-14, and 4 at level 15+.
Were there really 3 distinct play-styles pre one warlock? Were tome and chain that different. They were pretty much primary casters. Blade sure it was more gish in idea, but that really isn't different than bladesingers etc. Other than potentially blade the pacts didn't massively effect your play style. Yeah it had an effect a invisible familiar is a great scout but you weren't a pet class. I don't think I want to tie a players level 1 decision into you are now a pet class.
"Worthless" is just hyperbolic. They're still really close to one another numerically, as folks on Reddit have shown. Orange line is new hex and blue is old:
You have a lot better things to concentrate on than Hex, but that's nothing new either.
Making Hex Master result in Hex not requiring concentration (just like rangers don't need to concentrate for hunter's mark) would likely make hex worth using after tier 1, though it might wind up being too good (might have to do something like eliminating the duration increase for higher level casting).