Again, you're taking this to odd extremes. As both player and DM, I've certainly been in situations where taking a short rest wasn't going to happen. But it's not the norm for every locale, every environment, or even every encounter. Are you playing a style of D&D that's akin to Mad Max: Fury Road where you literally can't stop to rest, anywhere or at any time?
Here's the thing. What nobody seems to get is that it's not about active, enemies-are-actively-chasing-you pressure. It's about the core world assumption - apparently unique to my table(s) - that every single hour you get to do something is also an hour the enemy gets to do something. Time is universally impartial - it gives its gifts to absolutely everyone and everything in equal measure. If the party decides to faff off for half a day every single day doing yoga while the opposition makes more effective use of their time? That's on the party, not on the DM for being a bad DM. Bad guys have objectives, and they will use the time they are given to pursue those objectives. If the party constantly decides to do nothing to interfere with that pursuit of Bad Guy objectives, how is it a DM problem when the bad guys pull ahead?
When the party is traveling from one location to another - say from the city to a dungeon entrance, if we can use some tropes of the game - are you saying that the way there is so stacked with hostiles encounters that there's never any chance for a short rest, ever? If I recall, you're someone who places a high value on roleplaying (which I'm in agreement with!) - but it sounds like you're used to playing in campaigns that are extremely combat-heavy and light on....everything else.
(Tone is hard to convey here but I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically.)
As stated - roleplaying is why time is not a nonfactor in our games. The world doesn't wait for us - if we **** around doing yoga for twelve hours a day every day, the bad guys WILL get the jump on us and we'll have to play catch-up and probably lose. The assumption everybody else in this thread is making is that enemies will sit around doing dick-monkey jack squat nothing while the party faffs off for twelve hours a day short-resting after every single individual skill check, and that is so unrealistic and unfounded an assumption that it's never seriously come up in any game I've ever played. It's why short rests are a trap - every hour the PCs spend doing Nothing is an hour the enemy spends doing Something instead, and that is never a good equation for victory.
Again, your experiences with Pact Magic don't match mine at all. Sure, there have been times when I had to rely only on cantrips or my Pact Weapon, but to me, that's just part of the character - because I know I'll get spell slots back in a way that almost none of my other party members will (unless we're on the run in Avernus with the literal hordes of hell on our trail).
I don't think I've ever gotten a single short rest in any game I've ever played as a warlock in. Not once. I know I haven't gotten a single short rest in my current warlock's game, and she's gone from third level to the verge of sixth since the game started. Either the party has time to Rest Longly, or the party needs to exert its utmost to succeed against pressing odds and short rests are out of the question. There is no in between. Either we have time and space for a long rest or we're In The Shit. No exceptions.
Which should maybe explain something about why I'm so vehemently against retaining Pact Magic, ne?
At the same time even enemies need to eat. confident minions are lax hoping some one else will do the job. Evil genius's have multiple plans and goals so as not to have all their eggs in one basket. Enemies need rest or have other enemies to worry about. It that type of adventure really sounds like bad metagaming from the dm perspective. people need downtime to function running in the full adrenaline state is not good for long periods.
I do not believe you are completely wrong but you are defiantly not completely right in your stance.
Now IMO tailoring class design towards one side (either lots or no of Sort rests) is not good as play experiences vary. They could help direct expectations by encouraging design but players and dms will still do what they want. so another option is to build a better balance within the class. I prefer a decent mix of both.
So, I Hope the new DMG will really hammer down on encounter and adventure design. (including rests and non-combat design). Personally I think a lot of perceived problems with 5e just come down to rest and encounter expectations. Perkins has at least indicated some intent for helping such areas of the game.
Thirded. I've played and DMed with time pressure as a very real thing. But all the time, every time? No.
Any series of encounters that involve intelligent enemies has some kind of pressure. You can not Assault the evil barons castle clear the gatehouse and 2 other rooms, and then expect you can just go take a rest in that place. If you retreat to rest outside the castle you should assume any progress you made has been lost and the whole castle is on nigh alert now.
In the campaigns I played this comes down to that if you have a situation safe enough to take a short rest you might as well take long rest. I only tend to see short rests happening if your ability to long rest has not reset.
So your group is on a journey through the woods, bandits attack at 10 AM, you deal with them and take a long rest at 10:05 AM. It doesn't feel like its the rules that are the issue with that one. And don't get me wrong I do think pact magic could be improved in this regard and I think short rests should probably be 5-10 minutes.
But some of these arguments seem very weird to me.
Edit to add for your first point, sure but not every session is raiding the castle.
I have mixed feelings about the changes, I haven't tested the new material yet, but the biggest thing that stands out to me is getting the pact boon at level one but not forging a pact until level three. Firstly, it just doesn't make sense thematically, I can't see any eldritch entity handing over power like this without having some sort of deal in place, and mechanically it doesn't make sense either since the abilities granted are much more in line with third level abilities from other classes and this will make one level dips into warlock much more powerful and enticing rather than less.
I do like how the new pacts add so much more flavour and the mystic arcanum being an invocation also feels like a good move, that said I'm not sure how I feel about the change from Pact magic to half caster so I'm withholding judgement on that. Medium armour does feel like it should be package with pact of the blade to me, which should be noted is both a class feature and a "cantrip" so it's not like you can just pick a different pact each day as I'm reading it.
TL;DR I feel like it needs some tweaking and there's a definite need to give hexblades something as this feels like an indirect nerf to them, but I see some potential here.
Addendum, as others have said it's defintely odd that warlocks don't get ritual casting anyway and warlocks learning ritual spells feels like it should be a standard class feature.
I love this new Warlock, it is just better and finally we don't have a class that is 100% dependent on short rests. They can do just fine in a typical 1~2 short rest/day session as all other classes.
Also, besides maybe the level 18 Capstone Hex feature - that is just kinda meh - I think they are pretty well balanced.
I have mixed feelings about the changes, I haven't tested the new material yet, but the biggest thing that stands out to me is getting the pact boon at level one but not forging a pact until level three. Firstly, it just doesn't make sense thematically, I can't see any eldritch entity handing over power like this without having some sort of deal in place, and mechanically it doesn't make sense either since the abilities granted are much more in line with third level abilities from other classes and this will make one level dips into warlock much more powerful and enticing rather than less.
I do like how the new pacts add so much more flavour and the mystic arcanum being an invocation also feels like a good move, that said I'm not sure how I feel about the change from Pact magic to half caster so I'm withholding judgement on that. Medium armour does feel like it should be package with pact of the blade to me, which should be noted is both a class feature and a "cantrip" so it's not like you can just pick a different pact each day as I'm reading it.
TL;DR I feel like it needs some tweaking and there's a definite need to give hexblades something as this feels like an indirect nerf to them, but I see some potential here.
Addendum, as others have said it's defintely odd that warlocks don't get ritual casting anyway and warlocks learning ritual spells feels like it should be a standard class feature.
So the ritual casting thing just a reminder in the rule compendium all spells with the ritual tag can be cast as rituals by all classes that prepare them. If you want to cast a spell as a ritual Warlocks can do so all they have to do is prepare a spell with the ritual tag.
18TH LEVEL: HEX MASTER You have mastered the dread application of hexes, allowing you to cast the Hex spell without expending a Spell Slot.
Can you cast as level 5 Hex for free, so that way doing 3d6? There is nothing in the description saying you can't. If you can cast as level 5 it is much better than I thought (still probably meh, but a better 3d6meh instead of 1d6meh)
I genuinely wonder about the kind of games being run when the party isn't able to short rest at least once in a day as a regular thing. I don't mean this in a snide or critical way; I come from the old school "killer DM" tradition and even then, it's very difficult for me to imagine running a game when the party can consistently count on nevergetting a short rest in during the adventuring day.
Short rests don't exist because almost no one benefits from them outside of HP recovery which is rarely needed. Fighters, warlocks, monks, and sort of clerics/druids all gain something from short rests - for everyone else it's an hour of wasted time where whatever you're adventuring to do is getting harder to complete because you're giving the bad guys a whole-ass free hour of interrupted Bad Guy time to do bad Guy things and make it noticeably more likely that you fail in whatever you were setting out to do in the first place. Short rests are gifts the party gives to the enemy, and classes that do not require them to function do not want to give their enemy gifts. It's not that a party cannot take short rests if required, it's that every single short rest is an actively bad idea and should be avoided if at all possible.
Which means warlocks get exactly two leveled spells per day using Pact Magic and otherwise get to forget they're a spellcaster.
Which sucks donkey rocks and should be changed.
Short rest is an incredible narrative opportunity for the characters to deepen their relationship. As a DM I always ask players to explain what they do during short rests. And they usually create great narrative scenes. For me short rests are essential in games, it's that necessary narrative break between more tense scenes. It is the moment in which the players narrate how their characters investigate the magical objects, tell their stories, get to know each other and strengthen their relationships. Also, from time to time, I use them for players to justify their level ups. The wizard practices his new spells while his companions discuss more mundane matters around a campfire. The warlock communicates with his patron, who offers him more power if he continues to serve her well. The paladin meditates on his oath, trying to delve into its meaning (at level 3 I make them recite it, and I encourage other players to raise questions and debates about it in other short rests). Etc...
I am aware that many gaming groups do not play short rests. Many times they apply the mechanical benefit, and continue with their adventure. Everyone plays how they want, of course. But considering that in D&D there are usually no mechanics for interlude scenes, short rest is the best alternative. For me, not playing the short rests is wasting that great narrative resource.
18TH LEVEL: HEX MASTER You have mastered the dread application of hexes, allowing you to cast the Hex spell without expending a Spell Slot.
Can you cast as level 5 Hex for free, so that way doing 3d6? There is nothing in the description saying you can't. If you can cast as level 5 it is much better than I thought (still probably meh, but a better 3d6meh instead of 1d6meh)
Look at Warlock 18 level feature and compare it to Wizard and Sorcerer.
I know it is not even comparable, i'm not asking if it is better than wiz/sorc, i'm asking if it is as bad (only lvl 1 cast of hex) as I thought or not.
I know it is not even comparable, i'm not asking if it is better than wiz/sorc, i'm asking if it is as bad (only lvl 1 cast of hex) as I thought or not.
Depends to a degree. If you cast a spell for free, is it limited to lowest level.
At level 18 use a bonus action to make next attack to a bit more damage.
One weapon attack even if you can make 2 attacks or more.
One shot from Eldritch Blast if you have 2 or more.
With the new weapon pact it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the cleric with a DIP to warlock will be a must for clerics who go to melee. But hey, that's the problem with multiclasses. It is very difficult to control the shenanigans if you allow multiclassing.
Holy moly, I think I had several orgasms while I was reading the new warlock.
No more arguing whether warlocks should be Int or Cha based class. Now they get to choose! They can even be a Wis class if they so desire!
Everything you need to be a melee warlock is now conveniently rolled into Pact of the Blade, as it should have been from the very goddamn beginning. You can be a knight for any patron you desire! You're no longer locked into that half-assed "I don't even know who the hell my patron is and neither do the devs" crutch of a subclass. And the game finally gains an actual arcane gish, to complete the trio with paladin and ranger being the divine and primal gishes respectively. d8 hit points - which is a bit low for a frontliner - is offset by Lifedrinker invocation that provides a constant passive stream of self-healing, though it comes online pretty late.
Warlock's a half caster now. Finally, spell slots! Warlocks were never meant to be blasters anyway, their main source of damage was either Eldritch Blast or Pact of the Blade, warlock used spells to control, buff and debuff. And given that warlocks are SAD, they're still perfectly capable of that!
Access to the entire arcane spell list! No more having to take invocations to be able to curse someone. Now you have access to Bestow Curse just like that. And bonus spells from your patron, too, that's 25 total spells, plus free ones from invocations like Misty Visions if you take any of those. Plus ritual casting. Bloody amazing.
Overall, I'm ecstatic about the warlock. It still might use some little fixes here and there, but overall, it's better than it's ever been.
I'll get around to reading the thread, but my search yielded nothing so I wanna talk about this.
Gaze of Two Minds lets you cast spells from the other person's space. It has no range cap.
Now clearly if it required the person to have your material components, it would require them to use their hands, which would necessitate the rules explicitly telling you so. By the same logic, this doesn't use their voice or their movements -- it uses yours.
Wherever you happen to be.
Having a 5th-level Warlock in your party means you have access to Subtle Spell without sorcery points. Also the Warlock never needs to get out of bed, as long as they're comfortable risking two people getting KO'd at the same time. But it doesn't end if they get KO'd. I guess you could say it gets suspended.
Gaze of the Two Minds requires a bonus action every turn. Given how many of the warlock's spells and features depend on using the character's bonus action, I don't see this particular invocation being infinitely renewable.
I exclusively play Warlocks and have always had problems with the class, despite how much I love them. Literally, this new version fixes almost every single issue I've ever had with the class.
That said, I have a question that I haven't seen addressed yet:
Pact of the Chain no longer says anything about being able to cast touch spells through your familiar. Is this just gone now? I would think with the new rules for Gaze of Two Minds showing if you're mentally connected to another character you can cast through them, if anything, we'd be upgraded so that we can cast *any* range spell through our familiars since we're inherently mentally connected with them. But instead we're losing it entirely?
If this is the case, in my opinion, this absolutely wrecks being a PotC warlock. And that's the only thing I don't like so far.
Okay, I read the thread. Who would've guessed -- fixing the Warlock without fixing short rests means reinventing Pact Magic!
I swear: Make short rests a limited resource that refresh on long rests. Then, make them one minute long. All your problems go away. But this is just too complicated for some reason.
Nothing stands out to me here, except the aforementioned Gaze. There's definitely some noticable changes, but I don't particularly mind any of it. Warlock has historically always been a damage blaster, going back to 3.5e. Do I think that's a waste of narrative potential? Sure. Do I think it needs to be changed? Ehhhhhh.
I'm glad to see Mystic Arcanum isn't depressing to read anymore. Before, you got to cast a spell once......... Using your spell slots. But you had two spell slots? Too bad, you can only cast it once. It might have been a fine feature. I don't know, because it read so terribly that I've never picked it or seen anyone pick it.
I have mixed feelings about the changes, I haven't tested the new material yet, but the biggest thing that stands out to me is getting the pact boon at level one but not forging a pact until level three. Firstly, it just doesn't make sense thematically, I can't see any eldritch entity handing over power like this without having some sort of deal in place, and mechanically it doesn't make sense either since the abilities granted are much more in line with third level abilities from other classes and this will make one level dips into warlock much more powerful and enticing rather than less...
...
first taste is free. but, is it? just because the book might not say you're making increasingly binding promises, your DM might. you might be supplying the blood drop by drop that is revealed to be the ink of your contract on the sign-up date. try "yes, and..." with this particular new rule and see what happens.
hopefully some later splat book comes around to spoon feed everyone some suggestions for how this might make sense so i can stop seeing this argument (no offense to you specifically).
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At the same time even enemies need to eat. confident minions are lax hoping some one else will do the job. Evil genius's have multiple plans and goals so as not to have all their eggs in one basket. Enemies need rest or have other enemies to worry about. It that type of adventure really sounds like bad metagaming from the dm perspective. people need downtime to function running in the full adrenaline state is not good for long periods.
I do not believe you are completely wrong but you are defiantly not completely right in your stance.
Now IMO tailoring class design towards one side (either lots or no of Sort rests) is not good as play experiences vary. They could help direct expectations by encouraging design but players and dms will still do what they want. so another option is to build a better balance within the class. I prefer a decent mix of both.
So, I Hope the new DMG will really hammer down on encounter and adventure design. (including rests and non-combat design). Personally I think a lot of perceived problems with 5e just come down to rest and encounter expectations. Perkins has at least indicated some intent for helping such areas of the game.
So your group is on a journey through the woods, bandits attack at 10 AM, you deal with them and take a long rest at 10:05 AM. It doesn't feel like its the rules that are the issue with that one. And don't get me wrong I do think pact magic could be improved in this regard and I think short rests should probably be 5-10 minutes.
But some of these arguments seem very weird to me.
Edit to add for your first point, sure but not every session is raiding the castle.
I have mixed feelings about the changes, I haven't tested the new material yet, but the biggest thing that stands out to me is getting the pact boon at level one but not forging a pact until level three. Firstly, it just doesn't make sense thematically, I can't see any eldritch entity handing over power like this without having some sort of deal in place, and mechanically it doesn't make sense either since the abilities granted are much more in line with third level abilities from other classes and this will make one level dips into warlock much more powerful and enticing rather than less.
I do like how the new pacts add so much more flavour and the mystic arcanum being an invocation also feels like a good move, that said I'm not sure how I feel about the change from Pact magic to half caster so I'm withholding judgement on that. Medium armour does feel like it should be package with pact of the blade to me, which should be noted is both a class feature and a "cantrip" so it's not like you can just pick a different pact each day as I'm reading it.
TL;DR I feel like it needs some tweaking and there's a definite need to give hexblades something as this feels like an indirect nerf to them, but I see some potential here.
Addendum, as others have said it's defintely odd that warlocks don't get ritual casting anyway and warlocks learning ritual spells feels like it should be a standard class feature.
I love this new Warlock, it is just better and finally we don't have a class that is 100% dependent on short rests. They can do just fine in a typical 1~2 short rest/day session as all other classes.
Also, besides maybe the level 18 Capstone Hex feature - that is just kinda meh - I think they are pretty well balanced.
What did they do to my HEX Spell?
Hex master = Cast a nerfed level 1 spell for free.
Hexer Invocation = Cast a nerfed spell at 600 feet with ADV to maintain. (Just in case the enemy can hit you from 600 feet away)
Will they make Hunter's mark work like HEX to make Hex work like Hunter's Mark?
So the ritual casting thing just a reminder in the rule compendium all spells with the ritual tag can be cast as rituals by all classes that prepare them. If you want to cast a spell as a ritual Warlocks can do so all they have to do is prepare a spell with the ritual tag.
Question for people talking about 'Countering/Dispelling Class features based on spells..
IF a spell can be cast WITHOUT A Spell Slot is it still considered a Spell in regards to counter/dispel magic?
Cantrips are still spells so yes.
Will make a thread to talk about Warlock invocations as soon as I have time. I think a deep dive to them will help a bit.
Can you cast as level 5 Hex for free, so that way doing 3d6? There is nothing in the description saying you can't. If you can cast as level 5 it is much better than I thought (still probably meh, but a better 3d6meh instead of 1d6meh)
Short rest is an incredible narrative opportunity for the characters to deepen their relationship. As a DM I always ask players to explain what they do during short rests. And they usually create great narrative scenes. For me short rests are essential in games, it's that necessary narrative break between more tense scenes. It is the moment in which the players narrate how their characters investigate the magical objects, tell their stories, get to know each other and strengthen their relationships. Also, from time to time, I use them for players to justify their level ups. The wizard practices his new spells while his companions discuss more mundane matters around a campfire. The warlock communicates with his patron, who offers him more power if he continues to serve her well. The paladin meditates on his oath, trying to delve into its meaning (at level 3 I make them recite it, and I encourage other players to raise questions and debates about it in other short rests). Etc...
I am aware that many gaming groups do not play short rests. Many times they apply the mechanical benefit, and continue with their adventure. Everyone plays how they want, of course. But considering that in D&D there are usually no mechanics for interlude scenes, short rest is the best alternative. For me, not playing the short rests is wasting that great narrative resource.
Look at Warlock 18 level feature and compare it to Wizard and Sorcerer.
I know it is not even comparable, i'm not asking if it is better than wiz/sorc, i'm asking if it is as bad (only lvl 1 cast of hex) as I thought or not.
Depends to a degree. If you cast a spell for free, is it limited to lowest level.
At level 18 use a bonus action to make next attack to a bit more damage.
One weapon attack even if you can make 2 attacks or more.
One shot from Eldritch Blast if you have 2 or more.
With the new weapon pact it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the cleric with a DIP to warlock will be a must for clerics who go to melee. But hey, that's the problem with multiclasses. It is very difficult to control the shenanigans if you allow multiclassing.
Holy moly, I think I had several orgasms while I was reading the new warlock.
Overall, I'm ecstatic about the warlock. It still might use some little fixes here and there, but overall, it's better than it's ever been.
I'll get around to reading the thread, but my search yielded nothing so I wanna talk about this.
Gaze of Two Minds lets you cast spells from the other person's space. It has no range cap.
Now clearly if it required the person to have your material components, it would require them to use their hands, which would necessitate the rules explicitly telling you so. By the same logic, this doesn't use their voice or their movements -- it uses yours.
Wherever you happen to be.
Having a 5th-level Warlock in your party means you have access to Subtle Spell without sorcery points. Also the Warlock never needs to get out of bed, as long as they're comfortable risking two people getting KO'd at the same time. But it doesn't end if they get KO'd. I guess you could say it gets suspended.
Gaze of the Two Minds requires a bonus action every turn. Given how many of the warlock's spells and features depend on using the character's bonus action, I don't see this particular invocation being infinitely renewable.
I exclusively play Warlocks and have always had problems with the class, despite how much I love them. Literally, this new version fixes almost every single issue I've ever had with the class.
That said, I have a question that I haven't seen addressed yet:
Pact of the Chain no longer says anything about being able to cast touch spells through your familiar. Is this just gone now? I would think with the new rules for Gaze of Two Minds showing if you're mentally connected to another character you can cast through them, if anything, we'd be upgraded so that we can cast *any* range spell through our familiars since we're inherently mentally connected with them. But instead we're losing it entirely?
If this is the case, in my opinion, this absolutely wrecks being a PotC warlock. And that's the only thing I don't like so far.
Okay, I read the thread. Who would've guessed -- fixing the Warlock without fixing short rests means reinventing Pact Magic!
I swear: Make short rests a limited resource that refresh on long rests. Then, make them one minute long. All your problems go away. But this is just too complicated for some reason.
Nothing stands out to me here, except the aforementioned Gaze. There's definitely some noticable changes, but I don't particularly mind any of it. Warlock has historically always been a damage blaster, going back to 3.5e. Do I think that's a waste of narrative potential? Sure. Do I think it needs to be changed? Ehhhhhh.
I'm glad to see Mystic Arcanum isn't depressing to read anymore. Before, you got to cast a spell once......... Using your spell slots. But you had two spell slots? Too bad, you can only cast it once. It might have been a fine feature. I don't know, because it read so terribly that I've never picked it or seen anyone pick it.
first taste is free. but, is it? just because the book might not say you're making increasingly binding promises, your DM might. you might be supplying the blood drop by drop that is revealed to be the ink of your contract on the sign-up date. try "yes, and..." with this particular new rule and see what happens.
hopefully some later splat book comes around to spoon feed everyone some suggestions for how this might make sense so i can stop seeing this argument (no offense to you specifically).
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!