You can't cast Hex immediately after you wake up; you need an enemy target and can only transfer after that target has died. You open a fight with it, and then if you're still holding it at 3+ after a fight you can rest and regain the slot while still having it up
The world is filled with living things to kill.
Technically yes, but that's getting rather munchkin, so you're relying on a lenient DM.
Wanna take it further? Go with Pact of the Chain, summon a Tressym familiar. Next summon an unseen servant, now use your action to see through your Tressym's eyes, Tressym see through invisibility and thus sees the unseen servant; with your bonus action, cast Hex on your own Unseen servant and on the next attack perform a basic attack for 2+ damage. Short rest, you've got Hex up for the next 7/23 hours when upcast to 3rd/5th level.
Personally I always felt the, "the creature must drop to 0HP" before you can reapply hex to a new target to be a tedious and needless caveat of the spell, it just limits the actions of a warlock and the alternative usage of the Hex spell is almost never used because of that limitation. My personal opinion is that the hexer invocation should make Hex a free spell with no concentration, but while you have hex active on any target, you have disadvantage on concentration checks to maintain any spell.
Personally I think Hex should be moved to Pact of the Tome as well, with the utility/power of hex being moved to the familiar for a pact of the chain warlock and pact of the blade warlock instead getting Hunter's Mark or some other equivalent spell to boost weapon damage.
Yes, the spell has limits. That's by design. If you could just move it at will, then it just reads "add 1d6 damage to every attack you make". The point is to make you focus on one target at a time so there's an element of strategy in choosing who you want to hex.
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It can work as a cantrip maybe, but unless the concentration is solved its still in a bad spot. The whole i don't get short rests problem is centered around not having enough encounters per day as if you do, you are taking short rests. Without enough encounters even with limited slots you will be using a better concentration spell every fight.
I'd make it a class ability and like rage have a hexes per day column, have it last a minute at default, let it change targets freely, no concentration, maybe no components even as its not a spell anymore its a class ability. Add class features that give ways to amp it up along the way. Have more invocations tied to it. Move on.
If it's a cantrip it's not intended to be the default option at all times. It's a resource to use when there's little investment required (like a pleb fight) or you've blown all your good magic and fall back on it.
I would not call 'I kill a living creature before breakfast every day' a bad faith argument. I would, however, say that it's clearly not rules as intended and is yet one more reason to kill off short rest spell recovery.
"How do you want your cursed, withered squirrel cooked?"
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
Yes, the spell has limits. That's by design. If you could just move it at will, then it just reads "add 1d6 damage to every attack you make". The point is to make you focus on one target at a time so there's an element of strategy in choosing who you want to hex.
you are confusing the ability to move it at-will and as a bonus action, I never said it should be moved at will, It should still cost a bonus action but should not require the previous creature to have hit 0HP. It really limits the RP potential of the spell and just leaves people focusing on just the 1d6 part of it but then the 1d6 part of it has been made to be vitally important to a warlock, at least at tier 1, and potential tier 2 for a lot of warlock builds. If a spell or ability is at the core of your class, it shouldn't have such a heavy restriction on it to begin with, and hex has been placed into that position.
Look, if you all want to bad faith scenarios to justify why a Warlock killed something before breakfast, go ahead, have fun. But please don't pretend you're presenting realistic play scenarios as opposed to someone munchkining the spell.
It is not bad faith.
Yes it is. Instead of working from a realistic game scenario to see if you can get the result you want, you treat getting the result you want as a given and twist what might happen in the game to justify it.
No it is not, but yous is. It is treating the world like a realistic world where the character somehow after years of doing it figured out this huge mystery that their spells came back after chilling for an hour or so.
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
That is the kind of DM that should not be a DM.
If a player in any of my games tries to take a short rest immediately after a long rest without doing anything other than eating breakfast, I would laugh and assume they couldn't possibly be serious
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, the spell has limits. That's by design. If you could just move it at will, then it just reads "add 1d6 damage to every attack you make". The point is to make you focus on one target at a time so there's an element of strategy in choosing who you want to hex.
you are confusing the ability to move it at-will and as a bonus action, I never said it should be moved at will, It should still cost a bonus action but should not require the previous creature to have hit 0HP. It really limits the RP potential of the spell and just leaves people focusing on just the 1d6 part of it but then the 1d6 part of it has been made to be vitally important to a warlock, at least at tier 1, and potential tier 2 for a lot of warlock builds. If a spell or ability is at the core of your class, it shouldn't have such a heavy restriction on it to begin with, and hex has been placed into that position.
I don't think many warlocks cared about the limit in combat, but in social and non combat situations where you have no intention of killing the target it gets kind of disappointing.
Yes, the spell has limits. That's by design. If you could just move it at will, then it just reads "add 1d6 damage to every attack you make". The point is to make you focus on one target at a time so there's an element of strategy in choosing who you want to hex.
you are confusing the ability to move it at-will and as a bonus action, I never said it should be moved at will, It should still cost a bonus action but should not require the previous creature to have hit 0HP. It really limits the RP potential of the spell and just leaves people focusing on just the 1d6 part of it but then the 1d6 part of it has been made to be vitally important to a warlock, at least at tier 1, and potential tier 2 for a lot of warlock builds. If a spell or ability is at the core of your class, it shouldn't have such a heavy restriction on it to begin with, and hex has been placed into that position.
I don't think many warlocks cared about the limit in combat, but in social and non combat situations where you have no intention of killing the target it gets kind of disappointing.
And? Every other debuff spell in the game doesn't migrate at your whim, why should Hex be an exception? Also, just how often are you doing this? Because if your complaint is that the combat-focused spell isn't performing as well in out of combat situations, well, you've kinda described the reason for that right there.
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
That is the kind of DM that should not be a DM.
If a player in any of my games tries to take a short rest immediately after a long rest without doing anything other than eating breakfast, I would laugh and assume they couldn't possibly be serious
Cool, you are allowed to treat your players like crap.
Yes, the spell has limits. That's by design. If you could just move it at will, then it just reads "add 1d6 damage to every attack you make". The point is to make you focus on one target at a time so there's an element of strategy in choosing who you want to hex.
you are confusing the ability to move it at-will and as a bonus action, I never said it should be moved at will, It should still cost a bonus action but should not require the previous creature to have hit 0HP. It really limits the RP potential of the spell and just leaves people focusing on just the 1d6 part of it but then the 1d6 part of it has been made to be vitally important to a warlock, at least at tier 1, and potential tier 2 for a lot of warlock builds. If a spell or ability is at the core of your class, it shouldn't have such a heavy restriction on it to begin with, and hex has been placed into that position.
I don't think many warlocks cared about the limit in combat, but in social and non combat situations where you have no intention of killing the target it gets kind of disappointing.
And? Every other debuff spell in the game doesn't migrate at your whim, why should Hex be an exception? Also, just how often are you doing this? Because if your complaint is that the combat-focused spell isn't performing as well in out of combat situations, well, you've kinda described the reason for that right there.
Hex's other function is mostly non-combat, why even have a non-combat function if it's not expected to be used, but it is very much there in the spell description; which is to say that despite what you say, Hex is actually not specifically a combat spell.
Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
While there are a couple of ability checks that could come up, it's extremely rare. About the most you might see is a contested check, such as for a grapple, else wise this is basically targetting things around social encounters, such as Wisdom, would weaken a creature's ability checks for perception and insight, or Charisma, if you want them to mess up a public speech or at a social gathering of some type.
Also several spells have the ability to switch targets, Detect Thoughts for example, Hex and Hunter's Mark could and should be shifted to working in a similar fashion, where you cast the spell on yourself but then can as a bonus action shift the focus of that spell to a specific target, that would work quiet easily in fact.
I didn't say "spells", I said "debuff spells". The point of a debuff spell is you apply the effect to a specified target, or in a specified AoE. I'm not saying they could not write a spell that does what you want, I'm saying it is clearly a deliberate design choice that debuffs do not readily migrate. Besides, if you're out of combat then either you'll have a chance to take a short rest soon and using the slot doesn't really matter, or you're in the lead up to combat and resource management is a consideration, thus using a debuff in an attempt to bypass an obstacle should cost something. Also, Hex's other function is mostly a ribbon, same as Hunter's Mark.
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
That is the kind of DM that should not be a DM.
If a player in any of my games tries to take a short rest immediately after a long rest without doing anything other than eating breakfast, I would laugh and assume they couldn't possibly be serious
Cool, you are allowed to treat your players like crap.
No, I just don't invite players into my game who would even try that kind of ridiculousness
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would not call 'I kill a living creature before breakfast every day' a bad faith argument. I would, however, say that it's clearly not rules as intended and is yet one more reason to kill off short rest spell recovery.
"How do you want your cursed, withered squirrel cooked?"
And this, ladies and gentlemen is why the old pact magic was toxic for the game. You cant "balance it" because one camp will say "ya this is the intended thing, why else have the duration be x and the rules explicitly allow this." And the other camp going " that is OP munchkin power gaming". Ending these fights is important.
But as a key part of the class Hex should be viable as an upcast. It is currently fine as a first level spell, concentration and all because the slot is so cheap. But for it to be worth the slot at 3rd and higher with current lock it needs to not cost concentration.
And this, ladies and gentlemen is why the old pact magic was toxic for the game. You cant "balance it" because one camp will say "ya this is the intended thing, why else have the duration be x and the rules explicitly allow this." And the other camp going " that is OP munchkin power gaming". Ending these fights is important.
Oh my gosh, nerds disagreeing about rules minutiae on the internet! How completely unprecedented! Obviously the solution is to just take their toy away.
... Or, you know, we could actually have a reasonable discussion of the pros and cons and not appropriate a completely different debate as an excuse to justify the outcome you want.
Also going to say, who said killing a critter is indiscriminate. Breakfast is a thing and if we are taking a short rest immediately in the morning what do you think you are doing during the short rest? Why wouldn't the warlock kill and cook a creature for breakfast to start the day off right.
Yeah, not sure I wanna eat anything that got cursed and killed by necrotic damage...
EDIT: Also not sure why you're short resting immediately after long resting
To get your spells back? Like if you use your spells and end a fight with no one getting injured you would still want to take a short rest.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
That is the kind of DM that should not be a DM.
If a player in any of my games tries to take a short rest immediately after a long rest without doing anything other than eating breakfast, I would laugh and assume they couldn't possibly be serious
Cool, you are allowed to treat your players like crap.
No, I just don't invite players into my game who would even try that kind of ridiculousness
You basic argument is someone wakes up, hits the gym and after the gym they are not capable of taking a break to catch their breath. And you think the player wanting to do that is the ridiculous one. The warlock woke up and expended 1/2 or maybe all of their magical power if they did something like scry as well, they know their batteries are low and will recharge in a hour if they take it easy. And you say ridiculous how dare a player use their brain. I would never want to play with someone like that. When that is literally the point of the short rest classes.
And this, ladies and gentlemen is why the old pact magic was toxic for the game. You cant "balance it" because one camp will say "ya this is the intended thing, why else have the duration be x and the rules explicitly allow this." And the other camp going " that is OP munchkin power gaming". Ending these fights is important.
But as a key part of the class Hex should be viable as an upcast. It is currently fine as a first level spell, concentration and all because the slot is so cheap. But for it to be worth the slot at 3rd and higher with current lock it needs to not cost concentration.
Nah, all they need is like one paragraph explaining how these things are supposed to work.
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Wanna take it further? Go with Pact of the Chain, summon a Tressym familiar. Next summon an unseen servant, now use your action to see through your Tressym's eyes, Tressym see through invisibility and thus sees the unseen servant; with your bonus action, cast Hex on your own Unseen servant and on the next attack perform a basic attack for 2+ damage. Short rest, you've got Hex up for the next 7/23 hours when upcast to 3rd/5th level.
Personally I always felt the, "the creature must drop to 0HP" before you can reapply hex to a new target to be a tedious and needless caveat of the spell, it just limits the actions of a warlock and the alternative usage of the Hex spell is almost never used because of that limitation. My personal opinion is that the hexer invocation should make Hex a free spell with no concentration, but while you have hex active on any target, you have disadvantage on concentration checks to maintain any spell.
Personally I think Hex should be moved to Pact of the Tome as well, with the utility/power of hex being moved to the familiar for a pact of the chain warlock and pact of the blade warlock instead getting Hunter's Mark or some other equivalent spell to boost weapon damage.
Yes, the spell has limits. That's by design. If you could just move it at will, then it just reads "add 1d6 damage to every attack you make". The point is to make you focus on one target at a time so there's an element of strategy in choosing who you want to hex.
This is the kind of nonsense that creates DMs that don't allow short rests at all
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If it's a cantrip it's not intended to be the default option at all times. It's a resource to use when there's little investment required (like a pleb fight) or you've blown all your good magic and fall back on it.
"How do you want your cursed, withered squirrel cooked?"
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That is the kind of DM that should not be a DM.
you are confusing the ability to move it at-will and as a bonus action, I never said it should be moved at will, It should still cost a bonus action but should not require the previous creature to have hit 0HP. It really limits the RP potential of the spell and just leaves people focusing on just the 1d6 part of it but then the 1d6 part of it has been made to be vitally important to a warlock, at least at tier 1, and potential tier 2 for a lot of warlock builds. If a spell or ability is at the core of your class, it shouldn't have such a heavy restriction on it to begin with, and hex has been placed into that position.
No it is not, but yous is. It is treating the world like a realistic world where the character somehow after years of doing it figured out this huge mystery that their spells came back after chilling for an hour or so.
If a player in any of my games tries to take a short rest immediately after a long rest without doing anything other than eating breakfast, I would laugh and assume they couldn't possibly be serious
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't think many warlocks cared about the limit in combat, but in social and non combat situations where you have no intention of killing the target it gets kind of disappointing.
And? Every other debuff spell in the game doesn't migrate at your whim, why should Hex be an exception? Also, just how often are you doing this? Because if your complaint is that the combat-focused spell isn't performing as well in out of combat situations, well, you've kinda described the reason for that right there.
Cool, you are allowed to treat your players like crap.
Hex's other function is mostly non-combat, why even have a non-combat function if it's not expected to be used, but it is very much there in the spell description; which is to say that despite what you say, Hex is actually not specifically a combat spell.
While there are a couple of ability checks that could come up, it's extremely rare. About the most you might see is a contested check, such as for a grapple, else wise this is basically targetting things around social encounters, such as Wisdom, would weaken a creature's ability checks for perception and insight, or Charisma, if you want them to mess up a public speech or at a social gathering of some type.
Also several spells have the ability to switch targets, Detect Thoughts for example, Hex and Hunter's Mark could and should be shifted to working in a similar fashion, where you cast the spell on yourself but then can as a bonus action shift the focus of that spell to a specific target, that would work quiet easily in fact.
I didn't say "spells", I said "debuff spells". The point of a debuff spell is you apply the effect to a specified target, or in a specified AoE. I'm not saying they could not write a spell that does what you want, I'm saying it is clearly a deliberate design choice that debuffs do not readily migrate. Besides, if you're out of combat then either you'll have a chance to take a short rest soon and using the slot doesn't really matter, or you're in the lead up to combat and resource management is a consideration, thus using a debuff in an attempt to bypass an obstacle should cost something. Also, Hex's other function is mostly a ribbon, same as Hunter's Mark.
No, I just don't invite players into my game who would even try that kind of ridiculousness
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
With some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
And this, ladies and gentlemen is why the old pact magic was toxic for the game. You cant "balance it" because one camp will say "ya this is the intended thing, why else have the duration be x and the rules explicitly allow this." And the other camp going " that is OP munchkin power gaming". Ending these fights is important.
But as a key part of the class Hex should be viable as an upcast. It is currently fine as a first level spell, concentration and all because the slot is so cheap. But for it to be worth the slot at 3rd and higher with current lock it needs to not cost concentration.
Oh my gosh, nerds disagreeing about rules minutiae on the internet! How completely unprecedented! Obviously the solution is to just take their toy away.
... Or, you know, we could actually have a reasonable discussion of the pros and cons and not appropriate a completely different debate as an excuse to justify the outcome you want.
You basic argument is someone wakes up, hits the gym and after the gym they are not capable of taking a break to catch their breath. And you think the player wanting to do that is the ridiculous one. The warlock woke up and expended 1/2 or maybe all of their magical power if they did something like scry as well, they know their batteries are low and will recharge in a hour if they take it easy. And you say ridiculous how dare a player use their brain. I would never want to play with someone like that. When that is literally the point of the short rest classes.
Nah, all they need is like one paragraph explaining how these things are supposed to work.