I have often said, short rests aren't taken. They are given. When you short rest and if that rest is effective is dependent on the adventure and the story. I am usually comfortable with the idea that we can plan that there will be at least 1 short rest. Characters will need and want to spend their hit dice between fights
As a tangential comment, I'm going to echo what I've said before (and Yurei gave a full and helpful response to): I'm having a really hard time imagining a game or campaign in which short rests are rarely ever...given. I'm trying to imagine the circumstances or environments in which there is literally no safety anywhere for any length of time, be it 5 minutes or an hour, where hostiles are so numerous and aggressive that the party is unable to pause for an hour (in game time, not real time). At levels 4 and above, this is especially baffling, given access to spells like rope trick, tiny hut, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.
Similarly, I'm having a hard time imaging a full campaign in which time is so critical, every day, every hour, from level 1to 15+, in which short rests are out of the question.
I have no problems imagining specific locations and circumstances in which taking a short rest is either inadvisable or next-to-impossible or both. Likewise imagining occasional scenarios in which the party is racing a ticking clock and every minute counts.
But an entire campaign of that? 10+ levels of never, ever being able to take a few minutes or have a chance to catch breath and consider options? It sounds exhausting, not fun.
I agree that short rest features are a lot harder to design, and that it makes sense to either modify the guidelines and mechanics around them or to remove certain mechanics that recharge after this type of rest. However, I will say that there is technically a supposedly normal/typical amount here, though I doubt anyone has the statistics for how many short rests DMs make room for and how many of those rests players actually take. I genuinely would be quite interested in seeing the data on this, because the consensus among most communities seem to be that short rests are used a very varying amount of times depending on the game and the table.
I will say that IME the most common reason for not taking a short rest between encounters is that you had a long rest, making the short rest irrelevant.
I have often said, short rests aren't taken. They are given. When you short rest and if that rest is effective is dependent on the adventure and the story. I am usually comfortable with the idea that we can plan that there will be at least 1 short rest. Characters will need and want to spend their hit dice between fights
As a tangential comment, I'm going to echo what I've said before (and Yurei gave a full and helpful response to): I'm having a really hard time imagining a game or campaign in which short rests are rarely ever...given. I'm trying to imagine the circumstances or environments in which there is literally no safety anywhere for any length of time, be it 5 minutes or an hour, where hostiles are so numerous and aggressive that the party is unable to pause for an hour (in game time, not real time). At levels 4 and above, this is especially baffling, given access to spells like rope trick, tiny hut, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.
Similarly, I'm having a hard time imaging a full campaign in which time is so critical, every day, every hour, from level 1to 15+, in which short rests are out of the question.
I have no problems imagining specific locations and circumstances in which taking a short rest is either inadvisable or next-to-impossible or both. Likewise imagining occasional scenarios in which the party is racing a ticking clock and every minute counts.
But an entire campaign of that? 10+ levels of never, ever being able to take a few minutes or have a chance to catch breath and consider options? It sounds exhausting, not fun.
And I never suggested that you never get a short rest. I have never engaged in that ridiculous hyperbole. I only stated that when they happen and how effective they are is dependent on the pace of the adventure.
You yourself fully admitted that you can think of moments when taking a short rest is inadvisable or next-to-impossible. And that is the thing, the pace of the adventure will naturally dictate when rests happen.
Even in a 6 encounter day. It could be 3 encounters then a short rest 2 then a short rest and 1 then a long. Or 2,3,1 or, 3,3 or 2,2,2 or 1,1,4 or 4,1,1 or 1,1,1,1,1,1. And there is no way to standardize or, nor SHOULD YOU standardize it. All of these can happen at the same table in the same campaign. Because the pacing changes, and not knowing when you will or WONT have your resources is frustrating to manage.
Edit: and those are just the variations on a 6 encounter day and says nothing of a 4 encounter day a 3 encounter day, an 8 encounter day a 10 encounter day so on and so forth.
All of these can happen at the same table in the same campaign. Because the pacing changes, and not knowing when you will or WONT have your resources is frustrating to manage.
I mean, sure, but to me, that's just part of the game. It's part of the deal you sign up for when choosing an adventuring life. You don't know what each day is going to look like. Experience tells you that many days - probably most days - aren't going to be nonstop races with zero chances of resting, ever. So you take the hardship with the easier days.
And as my post above said: my response was tangential to your post; it wasn't meant as a direct response. It's more a response to folks saying they never get to take short rests, ever. (To be clear, this is NOT aimed at Yurei; as noted above I feel like Yurei gave a full and informative response to my query about their specific campaign.) It's something I simply can't imagine in a game, and really can't imagine being fun. Because short rests are absolutely built into the game as published in 2014; it seems clear that the rules assume parties will be able to take 1-2 short rests between long rests, at least.
All of these can happen at the same table in the same campaign. Because the pacing changes, and not knowing when you will or WONT have your resources is frustrating to manage.
I mean, sure, but to me, that's just part of the game. It's part of the deal you sign up for when choosing an adventuring life. You don't know what each day is going to look like. Experience tells you that many days - probably most days - aren't going to be nonstop races with zero chances of resting, ever. So you take the hardship with the easier days.
And as my post above said: my response was tangential to your post; it wasn't meant as a direct response. It's more a response to folks saying they never get to take short rests, ever. (To be clear, this is NOT aimed at Yurei; as noted above I feel like Yurei gave a full and informative response to my query about their specific campaign.) It's something I simply can't imagine in a game, and really can't imagine being fun. Because short rests are absolutely built into the game as published in 2014; it seems clear that the rules assume parties will be able to take 1-2 short rests between long rests, at least.
The problem is only the warlock is signing up for that deal when it comes to adventuring. No other character is punished for a change of pace. They take a rest when it makes sense, spend hit dice and recover health. The other stuff they recover on a short rest is inconsequential. All-in-all the people arguing about the "never short rests" are really being hyperbolic about exactly what I am talking about above. The short rests aren't entirely controlled or standardized and shouldn't be so it is impossible to balance the short rest ideas without putting some form of hard cap on them like Once per day when you take a short rest like with arcane recovery. or they need to be fine if you do all short rests or no short rests.
The adventurer is signing up for an unexpected day. The player is signing up to have fun and use their features and enjoy their particular power fantasy in the role that they play in the party. Picking a class and having it not worked as advertised because of the pacing of the game doesn't match exactly what your class needs to function, but is otherwise great for the story and the table isn't fun for that player or the rest of the players or the gm who now have to change the pace to make this player not feel like trash.
Somebody explain how to fix Pact Magic without giving the warlock more spell slots, since Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic nor give warlocks more spell slots.
How do you guys intend to pull that off?
How do you solve "the most common, highly requested feedback we get for warlocks is more spells, more often" without changing Pact Magic?
1. Why can;t they get more slots.
2. Short rests+give an option to take damage in a short one minute ritual that reduces max hit points to recharge clots,. or short ritual that causes exhaustion to recharge clots.
brain exhaustion with a table/deck of 'flaws' to work around sounds fun. "my secret flaw says i win if three people in the party are on fire at the end of any turn. huh. maybe i shouldn't have read that out loud."
I've considered the idea of warlocks being able to get pact slots back in exchange for Hit Dice as a bonus action (so the equivalent of a sorc trading sorcery pts for spell slots), but I'm not sure that scales well at higher levels
Well, for it to scale you can relate the life sacrificed in proportion to the level of the spell slot * the number of slots recharged.
I like this alternative for the recovery of pact spaces in case of restitution but without dependence on short breaks, the proposed cost/sacrifice makes sense.
I update, for a theoretical possibility of a pact magic space recovery mechanic at the cost of your life (a possible temporary reduction of the maximum can be inserted, until the next short or long rest, to prevent, for example, a priest from healing you to avoid the danger or abuse of this.), with 2 scaling options/alternatives:
I based this option on the sorcery point conversion table*4 (I raised level 5 by 1 point, and I added level 6 just in case, although I think it shouldn't exceed level 5.), and I added the bonus of constitution as a way of being able to cushion the sorcerer's overdemand, with the logic: if I have better health/stamina, I suffer less from the negative effect. In this way, especially if you have a decent constitution or some feat/trait that increases your health with respect to your level, it is easily 2 space recoveries and you will be left with very little life from low levels, and later you could last more, which if you He will immediately perform a short rest to heal you or there is no more combat risk is a buff that you can use almost for free.
2nd Regarding the level of the sorcerer: (-2*level of the sorcerer)
This formula is much simpler, losing from 2 to 40 life points, and half at its maximum (Until a LONG rest), is half to allow partial recovery thanks to a spell or through a short rest using your dice. hits. This one has a lighter impact, allowing more cooldowns, and obviously you will feel less sacrifice if you increase your build or gain additional life per feat or dwarven trait, which gain more life each level. It is also the friendliest to multiclass by scaling slower and only with warlock levels. (This is to relate to the warlock's gradual corruption as he plunges deeper into the pact.)
number of slots and level scaling, possibly similar to 5e, maybe enable a level 9 summon to increase the pact spell slot by 1
1. Just like 5e short rest recharge. At 3rd along with gaining your subclass you gain a feature called Draw Power.
Draw Power- You spend one minute concentrating (as if concentrating on a spell) on the source of your magical power replenishing some of it. At the end of the minute make a d20 test with your Spellcasting modifier DC 10+ the level of your pact magic spell slot. If the check is successful you regain 1 expended pact magic spell slot. You may use this feature a number of times equal to you pb and regain all uses when you complete a long rest.
This is both stronger and weaker than my earlier version since it relies on a check, but also allows for the 5e short rest recharge as well.
2. Far more complicated but offering more castings of spells by changing pact magic functionality. Instead of always casting at your highest level you get 1 slot that stays at each level as your pact magic grows. Also on a short rest you recover expended slots equal to your warlock level. So a level 6 warlock could recover a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot, or two 3rd level slots
1st one 1st level pact slot
2nd two 1st level pact slots
3rd one 1st level pact slot, one 2nd level pact slot
4th one 1st lvl slot, two 2nd lvl slots
5th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl
6th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, two 3rd lvl
7th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl
8th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, two 4th lvl
9th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, one 5th lvl
10th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, two 5th lvl
11th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, three 5th lvl
No change until 17
17th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd, one 4th, four 5th lvl
Note that at 11th level you can’t recharge all 3 of your 5th level slots on a single short rest as you only recharge up to 11 levels worth of spell slots. The same is true at 17th level.
It is possible to combine the Draw Power feature from my first option with my second option if only having a short rest recharge mechanic is too restrictive. Then draw power would only restore half your warlock level worth of pact magic slots
Interesting, I like it, I prefer the 1st one, that is, "draw power" since I see it as simpler, or maybe some variant where I recover 1 in a short one (less dependence on these) but with a possible additional maximum space.
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I'm glad to see that Yurei at least moderated his exaggeration of the hypothetical number of short breaks that the "less realistic and more relaxed" groups do for "Witcher's fault" (5, before they were 2 digits)
I have often said, short rests aren't taken. They are given. When you short rest and if that rest is effective is dependent on the adventure and the story. I am usually comfortable with the idea that we can plan that there will be at least 1 short rest. Characters will need and want to spend their hit dice between fights
As a tangential comment, I'm going to echo what I've said before (and Yurei gave a full and helpful response to): I'm having a really hard time imagining a game or campaign in which short rests are rarely ever...given. I'm trying to imagine the circumstances or environments in which there is literally no safety anywhere for any length of time, be it 5 minutes or an hour, where hostiles are so numerous and aggressive that the party is unable to pause for an hour (in game time, not real time). At levels 4 and above, this is especially baffling, given access to spells like rope trick, tiny hut, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.
Similarly, I'm having a hard time imaging a full campaign in which time is so critical, every day, every hour, from level 1to 15+, in which short rests are out of the question.
I have no problems imagining specific locations and circumstances in which taking a short rest is either inadvisable or next-to-impossible or both. Likewise imagining occasional scenarios in which the party is racing a ticking clock and every minute counts.
But an entire campaign of that? 10+ levels of never, ever being able to take a few minutes or have a chance to catch breath and consider options? It sounds exhausting, not fun.
And I never suggested that you never get a short rest. I have never engaged in that ridiculous hyperbole. I only stated that when they happen and how effective they are is dependent on the pace of the adventure.
The same for long rests, if you can't find one hour you for sure cant find 8.
If you want a feel of 'spend life force to recharge your magic', the easy way of doing that is hit dice. "When you take a short rest, you may recover spell slots or mystic arcanum of level 5 or lower by spending hit dice equal to the level of the slot or spell; you do not heal from hit dice spent in this way" is straightforward and seems unlikely to cause balance issues.
Or make it a spell
Blood Sacrifice
Level 1, Casting Time 1 action (Ritual), Duration Instant, Target Self, Components M (cutting tool), Necromancy
You may spend up to 5 hit dice to recover total levels of spell slots or mystic arcanum equal to the number of hit dice spent.
That's actually a pretty tactically interesting spell.
I have often said, short rests aren't taken. They are given. When you short rest and if that rest is effective is dependent on the adventure and the story. I am usually comfortable with the idea that we can plan that there will be at least 1 short rest. Characters will need and want to spend their hit dice between fights
As a tangential comment, I'm going to echo what I've said before (and Yurei gave a full and helpful response to): I'm having a really hard time imagining a game or campaign in which short rests are rarely ever...given. I'm trying to imagine the circumstances or environments in which there is literally no safety anywhere for any length of time, be it 5 minutes or an hour, where hostiles are so numerous and aggressive that the party is unable to pause for an hour (in game time, not real time). At levels 4 and above, this is especially baffling, given access to spells like rope trick, tiny hut, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.
Similarly, I'm having a hard time imaging a full campaign in which time is so critical, every day, every hour, from level 1to 15+, in which short rests are out of the question.
I have no problems imagining specific locations and circumstances in which taking a short rest is either inadvisable or next-to-impossible or both. Likewise imagining occasional scenarios in which the party is racing a ticking clock and every minute counts.
But an entire campaign of that? 10+ levels of never, ever being able to take a few minutes or have a chance to catch breath and consider options? It sounds exhausting, not fun.
And I never suggested that you never get a short rest. I have never engaged in that ridiculous hyperbole. I only stated that when they happen and how effective they are is dependent on the pace of the adventure.
The same for long rests, if you can't find one hour you for sure cant find 8.
Long rests can only happen once per day. And if you go more than a whole day without taking one you will get ranks of exhaustion There is a hard limit. They are Hard CODED into the game, and they reset everything. And I completely agree with this. That has NOTHING to do with what I stated though.
If Eldritch Bonk is supposed to be the sum totality of what warlocks do and the class is supposed to be nothing but a janky fighter-analogue, where's our d10 hit die? Where's our shield and heavy armor? Where's our bonus feats? Fighters get quite a few nice little perks in return for being boring and pointless - where are those perks for the warlock? I'll grant that Invocations are effectively bonus mini-feats, but that leaves quite a bit of class budget left to spend.
I see Warlocks as more of a Rogue than a Fighter, Warlocks have so many options when creating the character but in combat there is an easy way to play that many will naturally fall into.
In Combat
Rogue (Lv11), hand crossbow, find a way to get Sneak Attack 1d6+6d6+5 (29.5) piercing damage.
Warlock (Lv11), Eldritch Blast, Hex and Agonizing Blast 3x 1d10+1d6+5 (42) force damage.
Out of combat
Rogue can be Experts at so many things, pick locks hide, scout for danger, ect.
Warlocks can make a good face for the party, on top of all the Invocations they get.
A wise person once said a Rogue is better understood by the skills they didn't take, I feel like Warlocks can be understood by the Invocations they don't have.
If you want a feel of 'spend life force to recharge your magic', the easy way of doing that is hit dice. "When you take a short rest, you may recover spell slots or mystic arcanum of level 5 or lower by spending hit dice equal to the level of the slot or spell; you do not heal from hit dice spent in this way" is straightforward and seems unlikely to cause balance issues.
Or make it a spell
Blood Sacrifice
Level 1, Casting Time 1 action (Ritual), Duration Instant, Target Self, Components M (cutting tool), Necromancy
You may spend up to 5 hit dice to recover total levels of spell slots or mystic arcanum equal to the number of hit dice spent.
That's actually a pretty tactically interesting spell.
Except Hit Dice aren't very valuable. All this spell would become is a better Arcane Recovery.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Except Hit Dice aren't very valuable. All this spell would become is a better Arcane Recovery.
Hit dice are not valueless, but the main point is that they're a limited resource. As for 'better arcane recovery', it's not like arcane recovery is terribly valuable, so being better than it is a low bar.
Do you understand just how much damage Armor of Agathys can do to enemies? You can annihilate a bunch of smaller enemies with the cold damage it does. If you are using Armor of Agathys just for the temporary hp, you are playing the game wrong.
That's nice. I'd still rather have Shield. And not having to beg my party for short rests.
I'd like to have both, just like all the cool full casters do.
I think someone, maybe several someone’s have mentioned this already. I’m at work and can’t sift through all the posts to find it. So…
Would it be any better if the kept the “half caster” idea but instead of the paladin/ranger progression they used the standard full caster progression, like wizards /clerics, that capped at 10th level of Warlock. So by 10th level they would have 1st-5th level slots of 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. Then you can still upcast Armor if Agathys or whatever spell you like with your highest spell slot (5th) at 9th level just like Warlocks do now.
Mystic Arcanum can go back to class features or stay as invocations.
2. Far more complicated but offering more castings of spells by changing pact magic functionality. Instead of always casting at your highest level you get 1 slot that stays at each level as your pact magic grows. Also on a short rest you recover expended slots equal to your warlock level. So a level 6 warlock could recover a 1st, 2nd and 3rd level slot, or two 3rd level slots
1st one 1st level pact slot
2nd two 1st level pact slots
3rd one 1st level pact slot, one 2nd level pact slot
4th one 1st lvl slot, two 2nd lvl slots
5th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl
6th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, two 3rd lvl
7th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl
8th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, two 4th lvl
9th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, one 5th lvl
10th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, two 5th lvl
11th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd lvl, one 4th lvl, three 5th lvl
No change until 17
17th one 1st lvl, one 2nd lvl, one 3rd, one 4th, four 5th lvl
Note that at 11th level you can’t recharge all 3 of your 5th level slots on a single short rest as you only recharge up to 11 levels worth of spell slots. The same is true at 17th level.
It is possible to combine the Draw Power feature from my first option with my second option if only having a short rest recharge mechanic is too restrictive. Then draw power would only restore half your warlock level worth of pact magic slots
I had a similar idea, tho I think this is better than what I came up with. I'd say to just simplify the recovered pact magic slots to 1 per tier and like Arcane Recovery, limit it to once per day/long rest, on a short rest. You have a few more spell slots and have a few you wouldn't mind burning for shield or absorb elements but you can't do it as much as a Wizard or Sorcerer can, and that makes sense since Warlock is still the cantrip, eldritch blaster class with a higher hit die and access to better armour than either Wizard or Sorcerer.
I think someone, maybe several someone’s have mentioned this already. I’m at work and can’t sift through all the posts to find it. So…
Would it be any better if the kept the “half caster” idea but instead of the paladin/ranger progression they used the standard full caster progression, like wizards /clerics, that capped at 10th level of Warlock. So by 10th level they would have 1st-5th level slots of 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. Then you can still upcast Armor if Agathys or whatever spell you like with your highest spell slot (5th) at 9th level just like Warlocks do now.
Mystic Arcanum can go back to class features or stay as invocations.
That would be better mechanically, still wouldn't have the pact magic feel. I'd rather they keep pact magic maybe bump the numbers by 1 at 7ish and get normal mystic arcanums for free(maybe give some method to change them outside of level up), give the warlock like 4 more invocations and have a minor mystic arcanum ability that added a spell you could cast but also added a slot with no limit of 1 per spell level. Maybe allow the spell to be swapped more frequently, even daily. The people who liked the goth ranger could put 8 or so invocations into replicating their 1/2 caster status.
Would it be any better if the kept the “half caster” idea but instead of the paladin/ranger progression they used the standard full caster progression, like wizards /clerics, that capped at 10th level of Warlock. So by 10th level they would have 1st-5th level slots of 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. Then you can still upcast Armor if Agathys or whatever spell you like with your highest spell slot (5th) at 9th level just like Warlocks do now.
That would be better mechanically, still wouldn't have the pact magic feel.
I've been trying to pull back for the wide view to find a third alternative to 5e Pact Magic/Mystic Arcanum or UA half-caster
A warlock is an arcane caster that draws their magic from without rather than within. They aren't manipulating the Weave directly, they aren't drawing on their innate sorcerous power... they're in some fashion allowing themselves to be a conduit for someone/something else's magic
Locking spell slots at max level was one way to translate that mechanically. Getting spells and spell-like effects purely through Invocations and Arcanum would be another, although I can understand why that might not be on the table for the 1DD design team. Being a half-caster... not so much
Since we've been discussing Hit Dice as a mechanic/resource, what about Pact Magic slots that, instead of being max level all the time, are locked at their original level, but which you can use Hit Dice (or some other "lifeforce" resource, which I guess would have to be HP) to upcast? Armor of Agathys costs a 1st level slot and two Hit Dice if you want to upcast it to 3rd, something like that
You could then give the class something like a normal caster spell progression when it comes to slots with a long rest recharge, just with a different, more warlock-y way to use them
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
... A warlock is an arcane caster that draws their magic from without rather than within. They aren't manipulating the Weave directly, they aren't drawing on their innate sorcerous power... they're in some fashion allowing themselves to be a conduit for someone/something else's magic ...
This. Is. Not. True.
Warlocks are not shittier clerics. You are not channeling the power of your patron. Your patron is teaching you magic. They are giving you secrets ordinary people can't discover, teaching you things only an otherworldly being can properly teach. You cannot reteach those secrets, but you can learn them. Your powers are yours, not your patron's. They cannot turn off the tap. They cannot Assume Direct Control. They need you because they are either not strong enough to act directly in the Prime Material or are otherwise barred from doing so. Once you gain a warlock ability, it is as much yours as a sorcerer's spell.
Stop treating warlocks like value-brand clerics. If you want to channel the Infinite Power of the Multiverse's Most Powerful Beings, play a god damned cleric.
Would it be any better if the kept the “half caster” idea but instead of the paladin/ranger progression they used the standard full caster progression, like wizards /clerics, that capped at 10th level of Warlock. So by 10th level they would have 1st-5th level slots of 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. Then you can still upcast Armor if Agathys or whatever spell you like with your highest spell slot (5th) at 9th level just like Warlocks do now.
That would be better mechanically, still wouldn't have the pact magic feel.
I've been trying to pull back for the wide view to find a third alternative to 5e Pact Magic/Mystic Arcanum or UA half-caster
A warlock is an arcane caster that draws their magic from without rather than within. They aren't manipulating the Weave directly, they aren't drawing on their innate sorcerous power... they're in some fashion allowing themselves to be a conduit for someone/something else's magic
Locking spell slots at max level was one way to translate that mechanically. Getting spells and spell-like effects purely through Invocations and Arcanum would be another, although I can understand why that might not be on the table for the 1DD design team. Being a half-caster... not so much
Since we've been discussing Hit Dice as a mechanic/resource, what about Pact Magic slots that, instead of being max level all the time, are locked at their original level, but which you can use Hit Dice (or some other "lifeforce" resource, which I guess would have to be HP) to upcast? Armor of Agathys costs a 1st level slot and two Hit Dice if you want to upcast it to 3rd, something like that
You could then give the class something like a normal caster spell progression when it comes to slots with a long rest recharge, just with a different, more warlock-y way to use them
I agree with Yurei on the thematic element of warlock not being a cleric, but I like the idea of coming with some other method to reflect pact magic, not sure having to spend 4 hit dice to upgrade armor to 5th level would work though. You'd be spending as many hit dice as temp hit points you'd gain. But maybe some other resource could work.
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As a tangential comment, I'm going to echo what I've said before (and Yurei gave a full and helpful response to): I'm having a really hard time imagining a game or campaign in which short rests are rarely ever...given. I'm trying to imagine the circumstances or environments in which there is literally no safety anywhere for any length of time, be it 5 minutes or an hour, where hostiles are so numerous and aggressive that the party is unable to pause for an hour (in game time, not real time). At levels 4 and above, this is especially baffling, given access to spells like rope trick, tiny hut, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion.
Similarly, I'm having a hard time imaging a full campaign in which time is so critical, every day, every hour, from level 1to 15+, in which short rests are out of the question.
I have no problems imagining specific locations and circumstances in which taking a short rest is either inadvisable or next-to-impossible or both. Likewise imagining occasional scenarios in which the party is racing a ticking clock and every minute counts.
But an entire campaign of that? 10+ levels of never, ever being able to take a few minutes or have a chance to catch breath and consider options? It sounds exhausting, not fun.
Sounds like polling time.
I will say that IME the most common reason for not taking a short rest between encounters is that you had a long rest, making the short rest irrelevant.
And I never suggested that you never get a short rest. I have never engaged in that ridiculous hyperbole. I only stated that when they happen and how effective they are is dependent on the pace of the adventure.
You yourself fully admitted that you can think of moments when taking a short rest is inadvisable or next-to-impossible. And that is the thing, the pace of the adventure will naturally dictate when rests happen.
Even in a 6 encounter day. It could be 3 encounters then a short rest 2 then a short rest and 1 then a long. Or 2,3,1 or, 3,3 or 2,2,2 or 1,1,4 or 4,1,1 or 1,1,1,1,1,1. And there is no way to standardize or, nor SHOULD YOU standardize it. All of these can happen at the same table in the same campaign. Because the pacing changes, and not knowing when you will or WONT have your resources is frustrating to manage.
Edit: and those are just the variations on a 6 encounter day and says nothing of a 4 encounter day a 3 encounter day, an 8 encounter day a 10 encounter day so on and so forth.
I mean, sure, but to me, that's just part of the game. It's part of the deal you sign up for when choosing an adventuring life. You don't know what each day is going to look like. Experience tells you that many days - probably most days - aren't going to be nonstop races with zero chances of resting, ever. So you take the hardship with the easier days.
And as my post above said: my response was tangential to your post; it wasn't meant as a direct response. It's more a response to folks saying they never get to take short rests, ever. (To be clear, this is NOT aimed at Yurei; as noted above I feel like Yurei gave a full and informative response to my query about their specific campaign.) It's something I simply can't imagine in a game, and really can't imagine being fun. Because short rests are absolutely built into the game as published in 2014; it seems clear that the rules assume parties will be able to take 1-2 short rests between long rests, at least.
The problem is only the warlock is signing up for that deal when it comes to adventuring. No other character is punished for a change of pace. They take a rest when it makes sense, spend hit dice and recover health. The other stuff they recover on a short rest is inconsequential. All-in-all the people arguing about the "never short rests" are really being hyperbolic about exactly what I am talking about above. The short rests aren't entirely controlled or standardized and shouldn't be so it is impossible to balance the short rest ideas without putting some form of hard cap on them like Once per day when you take a short rest like with arcane recovery. or they need to be fine if you do all short rests or no short rests.
The adventurer is signing up for an unexpected day. The player is signing up to have fun and use their features and enjoy their particular power fantasy in the role that they play in the party. Picking a class and having it not worked as advertised because of the pacing of the game doesn't match exactly what your class needs to function, but is otherwise great for the story and the table isn't fun for that player or the rest of the players or the gm who now have to change the pace to make this player not feel like trash.
I update, for a theoretical possibility of a pact magic space recovery mechanic at the cost of your life (a possible temporary reduction of the maximum can be inserted, until the next short or long rest, to prevent, for example, a priest from healing you to avoid the danger or abuse of this.), with 2 scaling options/alternatives:
Level <-----> (loss of life)
1 <-----> (constitution bonus - 8)
2 <-----> (constitution bonus - 12)
3 <-----> (constitution bonus - 20)
4 <-----> (constitution bonus - 24)
5 <-----> (constitution bonus - 32)
6 <-----> (constitution bonus - 40)
I based this option on the sorcery point conversion table*4 (I raised level 5 by 1 point, and I added level 6 just in case, although I think it shouldn't exceed level 5.), and I added the bonus of constitution as a way of being able to cushion the sorcerer's overdemand, with the logic: if I have better health/stamina, I suffer less from the negative effect. In this way, especially if you have a decent constitution or some feat/trait that increases your health with respect to your level, it is easily 2 space recoveries and you will be left with very little life from low levels, and later you could last more, which if you He will immediately perform a short rest to heal you or there is no more combat risk is a buff that you can use almost for free.
This formula is much simpler, losing from 2 to 40 life points, and half at its maximum (Until a LONG rest), is half to allow partial recovery thanks to a spell or through a short rest using your dice. hits. This one has a lighter impact, allowing more cooldowns, and obviously you will feel less sacrifice if you increase your build or gain additional life per feat or dwarven trait, which gain more life each level. It is also the friendliest to multiclass by scaling slower and only with warlock levels. (This is to relate to the warlock's gradual corruption as he plunges deeper into the pact.)
number of slots and level scaling, possibly similar to 5e, maybe enable a level 9 summon to increase the pact spell slot by 1
Interesting, I like it, I prefer the 1st one, that is, "draw power" since I see it as simpler, or maybe some variant where I recover 1 in a short one (less dependence on these) but with a possible additional maximum space.
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I'm glad to see that Yurei at least moderated his exaggeration of the hypothetical number of short breaks that the "less realistic and more relaxed" groups do for "Witcher's fault" (5, before they were 2 digits)
The same for long rests, if you can't find one hour you for sure cant find 8.
If you want a feel of 'spend life force to recharge your magic', the easy way of doing that is hit dice. "When you take a short rest, you may recover spell slots or mystic arcanum of level 5 or lower by spending hit dice equal to the level of the slot or spell; you do not heal from hit dice spent in this way" is straightforward and seems unlikely to cause balance issues.
Or make it a spell
That's actually a pretty tactically interesting spell.
Long rests can only happen once per day. And if you go more than a whole day without taking one you will get ranks of exhaustion There is a hard limit. They are Hard CODED into the game, and they reset everything. And I completely agree with this. That has NOTHING to do with what I stated though.
I see Warlocks as more of a Rogue than a Fighter, Warlocks have so many options when creating the character but in combat there is an easy way to play that many will naturally fall into.
In Combat
Out of combat
A wise person once said a Rogue is better understood by the skills they didn't take, I feel like Warlocks can be understood by the Invocations they don't have.
Except Hit Dice aren't very valuable. All this spell would become is a better Arcane Recovery.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Hit dice are not valueless, but the main point is that they're a limited resource. As for 'better arcane recovery', it's not like arcane recovery is terribly valuable, so being better than it is a low bar.
I'd like to have both, just like all the cool full casters do.
I think someone, maybe several someone’s have mentioned this already. I’m at work and can’t sift through all the posts to find it. So…
Would it be any better if the kept the “half caster” idea but instead of the paladin/ranger progression they used the standard full caster progression, like wizards /clerics, that capped at 10th level of Warlock. So by 10th level they would have 1st-5th level slots of 4, 3, 3, 3, 2. Then you can still upcast Armor if Agathys or whatever spell you like with your highest spell slot (5th) at 9th level just like Warlocks do now.
Mystic Arcanum can go back to class features or stay as invocations.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I'm exhausted by the conversation and don't have much to add, but just to let you know, Yurei's a lady. : )
I had a similar idea, tho I think this is better than what I came up with. I'd say to just simplify the recovered pact magic slots to 1 per tier and like Arcane Recovery, limit it to once per day/long rest, on a short rest. You have a few more spell slots and have a few you wouldn't mind burning for shield or absorb elements but you can't do it as much as a Wizard or Sorcerer can, and that makes sense since Warlock is still the cantrip, eldritch blaster class with a higher hit die and access to better armour than either Wizard or Sorcerer.
That would be better mechanically, still wouldn't have the pact magic feel. I'd rather they keep pact magic maybe bump the numbers by 1 at 7ish and get normal mystic arcanums for free(maybe give some method to change them outside of level up), give the warlock like 4 more invocations and have a minor mystic arcanum ability that added a spell you could cast but also added a slot with no limit of 1 per spell level. Maybe allow the spell to be swapped more frequently, even daily. The people who liked the goth ranger could put 8 or so invocations into replicating their 1/2 caster status.
I've been trying to pull back for the wide view to find a third alternative to 5e Pact Magic/Mystic Arcanum or UA half-caster
A warlock is an arcane caster that draws their magic from without rather than within. They aren't manipulating the Weave directly, they aren't drawing on their innate sorcerous power... they're in some fashion allowing themselves to be a conduit for someone/something else's magic
Locking spell slots at max level was one way to translate that mechanically. Getting spells and spell-like effects purely through Invocations and Arcanum would be another, although I can understand why that might not be on the table for the 1DD design team. Being a half-caster... not so much
Since we've been discussing Hit Dice as a mechanic/resource, what about Pact Magic slots that, instead of being max level all the time, are locked at their original level, but which you can use Hit Dice (or some other "lifeforce" resource, which I guess would have to be HP) to upcast? Armor of Agathys costs a 1st level slot and two Hit Dice if you want to upcast it to 3rd, something like that
You could then give the class something like a normal caster spell progression when it comes to slots with a long rest recharge, just with a different, more warlock-y way to use them
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This. Is. Not. True.
Warlocks are not shittier clerics. You are not channeling the power of your patron. Your patron is teaching you magic. They are giving you secrets ordinary people can't discover, teaching you things only an otherworldly being can properly teach. You cannot reteach those secrets, but you can learn them. Your powers are yours, not your patron's. They cannot turn off the tap. They cannot Assume Direct Control. They need you because they are either not strong enough to act directly in the Prime Material or are otherwise barred from doing so. Once you gain a warlock ability, it is as much yours as a sorcerer's spell.
Stop treating warlocks like value-brand clerics. If you want to channel the Infinite Power of the Multiverse's Most Powerful Beings, play a god damned cleric.
Please do not contact or message me.
I agree with Yurei on the thematic element of warlock not being a cleric, but I like the idea of coming with some other method to reflect pact magic, not sure having to spend 4 hit dice to upgrade armor to 5th level would work though. You'd be spending as many hit dice as temp hit points you'd gain. But maybe some other resource could work.