Again, I don't care about Pact Magic as a concept, I care about Wizards being better at casting iconic Warlock spells than Warlocks.
This issue also exists with Paladin and Cleric now, Cleric casts iconic Paladin spells better than a Paladin, including all the smite spells. Given smite spells are now bonus action on hit, it makes cleric able to out smite paladin, significantly. Then you get find steed which cleric gets flying magical mounts sooner than Paladin does...
One lousy stinking garbage-ass extra Pact Magic slot is not going to magically repair Pact Magic, Sposta. ****, according to all of the "you should be getting NO FEWER than two short rests every last single day and any table/DM that doesn't let you do that, no matter what the reason is, is a horrible table/DM that you should abandon forever", you would need to triple the number of Pact Magic slots just to catch up to "Where the Class Already Is", let alone "Where The Class Should Be."
Do you foresee a future in which Wizards triples the number of Pact Magic slots? Yeah, neither do I. Neither does anybody. Nobody with a brain in their head is saying "sure, Wizards'll absolutely give us 12 fifth-level spell slots!" It's not going to happen.
So why keep asking for it?
Who said “one slot” was enough?!? Certainly not I.
and they can increase the number of slots without tripping them.
I love that y'all's idea of "try something new" is "the same old thing every other caster class gets"
What are you talking about, the artificer was the only kind of arcane half-caster, and even that one worked in a weird way, with cleric-like spellcasting and less than a half of arcane spells available. The new warlock is the first actual arcane half-caster in game.
Square peg. Round hole. No thanks
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Somebody explain how to fix Pact Magic without giving the warlock more spell slots, since Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic nor give warlocks more spell slots.
How do you guys intend to pull that off?
How do you solve "the most common, highly requested feedback we get for warlocks is more spells, more often" without changing Pact Magic?
Somebody explain how to fix Pact Magic without giving the warlock more spell slots, since Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic nor give warlocks more spell slots.
Who's saying not to give warlocks more spell slots?
Who's saying not to give warlocks more spell slots?
Litetally all of you?
"Nooo short rests are awesome, keep warlock a short rest class!"
"Nooo you can't give warlocks lower-level slots, keep them nothing but max casts!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
Every time I poke my tits into a warlock thread, half a dozen people are screaming about Identity and how NOTHING CAN CHANGE OR WARLOCKS AREN'T WARLOCKS ANYMORE. And look - I'm one of the people who hates that psychic abilities are always blown off as just shittier spellcasting. Identity is important. It really is. But so is actually being feasible, and Pact Magic has had its chance to prove it's feasible. It has failed.
How long do we need to cling to a failed system?
Unrelated: I ******** hate* posting from my phone. Literal wurst. I have no idea how you people tolerate it, Sposta et al.
Somebody explain how to fix Pact Magic without giving the warlock more spell slots, since Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic nor give warlocks more spell slots.
How do you guys intend to pull that off?
How do you solve "the most common, highly requested feedback we get for warlocks is more spells, more often" without changing Pact Magic?
That's a weird ass strawman you've built there.
I haven't seen anyone arguing that Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic. What I've seen people argue is that being turned into half-caster and having the option for 3rd, 4th and 5th level Mystic Arcanum spells is not adequate compensation for losing the spell slot level scaling we had previously.
If they intend on keeping the half-caster progression, I want them to at least add the "source: Warlock" tag to:
Armor of Agathys
Arms of Hadar
Hunger of Hadar
Hellish Rebuke
Shadow of Moil
Summon Lesser Demons
Summon Greater Demon
...and have them scaled (when applicable) in both at what level they can be attained, and how they scale when cast with higher level spellslots, so that Warlocks get to keep the same progression rate as they have in 5E, and that other classes are not better at casting them / get access to them earlier than Warlocks.
The answer is that Action Surge, Arcane Recovery, and other lingering shirt rest abilities are not critical core-functionality pieces of their class. And no, Action Surge is not *critical* to fighters being able to fighter. It's a sweet bonus, but especially in this UA that's all it is.
Spellcasting is critical core functionality to a warlock, but with Pact Magic? You don't get to cast spells and be a spellcaster at all unless your DM and party are magnanimous (and bored) enough to give you 5+ short rests per day. Yes, Eldritch Blast is really good. It is not "carry the entire class alone forever" good. Warlocks are Mage class characters, they should be able to cast spells. Pact Magic doesn't allow them to do so.
The "other classes are better with [X] spells than this class!" argument is a bad wrong argument. There is nothing wrong with cleric being able to smite, there is nothing wrong with sorcerers and wizards being able to cast eldritch spells (do you, like...not remember Aberrant sorcerer?), there is nothing wrong with druids being able to use arrow spells. Who cares if the full caster class gets them faster - their original class can generally make better use of them in the case of dingdongs and rangers, or the spells should never have been exclusive in the first place in the case of warlocks and their GOO-y junk. Other people can tap the power of the Far Planes, clerics crushing skulls with a mace blazing with holy light is as iconic as paladins doing it with a sword, and if a druid wants to invoke thorns or brambles with an arrow from their shortbow who are we to tell them they can't?
I play warlocks for Invocations and to a lesser extent the utility of certain pact boons. Up until this UA, I mostly considered their spellcasting a side-gig trick they never got to seriously use outside cantrips. In this UA they can actually cast spells.
Why should we settle for not casting spells when we could cast spells instead?
I love that y'all's idea of "try something new" is "the same old thing every other caster class gets"
What are you talking about, the artificer was the only kind of arcane half-caster, and even that one worked in a weird way, with cleric-like spellcasting and less than a half of arcane spells available. The new warlock is the first actual arcane half-caster in game.
Slapping arcane on the magic does not make half caster new.
Somebody explain how to fix Pact Magic without giving the warlock more spell slots, since Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic nor give warlocks more spell slots.
How do you guys intend to pull that off?
How do you solve "the most common, highly requested feedback we get for warlocks is more spells, more often" without changing Pact Magic?
1. Why can;t they get more slots.
2. Short rests+give an option to take damage in a short one minute ritual that reduces max hit points to recharge clots,. or short ritual that causes exhaustion to recharge clots.
Who's saying not to give warlocks more spell slots?
Litetally all of you?
"Nooo short rests are awesome, keep warlock a short rest class!"
"Nooo you can't give warlocks lower-level slots, keep them nothing but max casts!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
Every time I poke my tits into a warlock thread, half a dozen people are screaming about Identity and how NOTHING CAN CHANGE OR WARLOCKS AREN'T WARLOCKS ANYMORE. And look - I'm one of the people who hates that psychic abilities are always blown off as just shittier spellcasting. Identity is important. It really is. But so is actually being feasible, and Pact Magic has had its chance to prove it's feasible. It has failed.
How long do we need to cling to a failed system?
Unrelated: I ******** hate* posting from my phone. Literal wurst. I have no idea how you people tolerate it, Sposta et al.
Literally none of us are saying that. We don't want more slots through being a 1/2 casting crap goth ranger. We want more slots through a warlocks pact magic.
Who's saying not to give warlocks more spell slots?
Litetally all of you?
"Nooo short rests are awesome, keep warlock a short rest class!"
"Nooo you can't give warlocks lower-level slots, keep them nothing but max casts!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
Every time I poke my tits into a warlock thread, half a dozen people are screaming about Identity and how NOTHING CAN CHANGE OR WARLOCKS AREN'T WARLOCKS ANYMORE. And look - I'm one of the people who hates that psychic abilities are always blown off as just shittier spellcasting. Identity is important. It really is. But so is actually being feasible, and Pact Magic has had its chance to prove it's feasible. It has failed.
How long do we need to cling to a failed system?
Unrelated: I ******** hate* posting from my phone. Literal wurst. I have no idea how you people tolerate it, Sposta et al.
Literally none of us are saying that. We don't want more slots through being a 1/2 casting crap goth ranger. We want more slots through a warlocks pact magic.
I genuinely wonder why people keep responding to posters that seem to refuse to engage in good faith
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
While I like what they did with the warlock I can understand people not liking them being half casters. Easy fix is to alter pact magic to only recharge on a long rest. Just make it part of the feature to recharge 1 pact slot in one minute proficiency times per day. They would still get 3 slots at 11 and 4 slots at 17. Then also add an invocation that lets them get two slots back each time they recharge. This allows them to cast more spells without relying on short rest but still limits how many spells per combat since they cast at highest level. Also return Mystic Arcanums to being a feature and not part on invocations. Then return the cast a spell once a day invocations, but remove the need for using a warlock spell slot. This would mean those spells only cast at their base levels, but that should be fine.
I don't think they want to set stuff like that to PB; they moved Channel Divinity away from PB because it scaled too well as a dip
Channel Divinity number of dice and uses scaled on PB. It was bad because with a one level dip it still got stronger and you got more uses. This is technically weaker than 5e warlock slots if your party actually takes short rest. If you one level dipped into a 5e warlock you have as many 1st level spell slots as you could get rest. This version just let you recharge in a minute and only gives you a max of 6 recharges per day.
The problem might be that having 10 5th level spell slots per day, at 17th level, might be too much? I don't know. At 17th level a full caster has 2 5th, and 1 of each 6th-9th. Yes, the higher level spells are more powerful, but it's hard to quantify how many 5th level slots equal a 6th-9th level spell when Wish and Meteor Swarm are in the picture.
As for the dip problem, if it was a feature that kicked in at a higher level, other than being part of the 1st level Pact Magic feature, it wouldn't be as much of an issue. But at that point you might as well make it a flat number of times, or tied to your casting stat modifier.
With 3 short rest a 5e warlork has 12 5th level spell slots. So the 5e version is still better since they could have as many spellslots as they could short rest per day. My version gets rid of short rest, but you still need a minute to restore a spell slot. Remember if you dip 1 warlock in 5e you still get that spell slots back on a short rest. Most people 2 level dip for invocations and 2 short rest recharge spell slots. I believe y’all are really overthinking this feature.
If Pact Magic gets revivified, maybe Pact of the Tome could provide lower level slots in addition to the Pact Magic slots. It makes sense flavor-wise, since Tome is supposed to be the castiest of Warlocks, and it provides something mechanics-wise to allow for easier utility. I'd prefer something that scales, but half-caster or third-caster progression might be a bit too fast for a pact boon. I dunno, just an idea that addresses some problems being raised.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I genuinely wonder why people keep responding to posters that refuse to engage in good faith
Isn't it interesting that "not good faith" means "disagreeing with me"?
Pact Magic people are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on short rests. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on max-level slots. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on full caster progression. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on, basically, anything at all. Everything about Pact Magic MUST remain exactly the same as R5e, but they also somehow expect Wizards to fix it.
Excuse me: *how*? They can't change anything about it, and the class budget to account for increased spellcasting has to come from SOMEWHERE. You don't get a character with four level 9 spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and you don't get a character with twelve level 5 slots that recharge on a short rest. The devs will NEVER allow that.
Something. Has. To. Give.
Something. Has. To. Change.
So what are you willing to budge on, to solve the fact that warlocks are widely and commonly considered to have too little spellcasting per the game's head developer? What do you give up to get better spellcasting? What do you give up to get "more spells, more often"? Because warlocks NEED more spells, more often...but the Pact Magic crowd refuses to allow it.
Whether it is a matter of choice or not is not really the issue. It is trying to understand the reasoning behind getting rid of Pact Magic. If the reasoning is "well we want to get rid of short rest recharge abilities because most people don't get to short rest in their games", you can't just leave, or straight up make more of, short rest abilities for other classes.
They gave you the reason.
"One of the most common and highly requested pieces of feedback we receive about warlocks is that they want to cast more spells, more often." ~Jeremy Crawford, talking to Todd Kenreck on the YouTubes.
I wonder if they had asked in the survey you are quoting, to players. "We can give your Warlock more spell casting but you won't get your highest level slot (5th) until level 17. How does that sound?" how many warlock players would be like, "woohoo!!! Lets do it. And please, hold off our 2nd level slots to 5th, our 3rd level slots to 9th, and our 4th level slots to 13th. That would be awesome!!!"
I genuinely wonder why people keep responding to posters that refuse to engage in good faith
Isn't it interesting that "not good faith" means "disagreeing with me"?
Pact Magic people are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on short rests. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on max-level slots. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on full caster progression. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on, basically, anything at all. Everything about Pact Magic MUST remain exactly the same as R5e, but they also somehow expect Wizards to fix it.
Excuse me: *how*? They can't change anything about it, and the class budget to account for increased spellcasting has to come from SOMEWHERE. You don't get a character with four level 9 spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and you don't get a character with twelve level 5 slots that recharge on a short rest. The devs will NEVER allow that.
Something. Has. To. Give.
Something. Has. To. Change.
So what are you willing to budge on, to solve the fact that warlocks are widely and commonly considered to have too little spellcasting per the game's head developer? What do you give up to get better spellcasting? What do you give up to get "more spells, more often"? Because warlocks NEED more spells, more often...but the Pact Magic crowd refuses to allow it.
Why?
You keep saying this yet many in this very thread are saying it's absolutely fine to make them recharge on long rest. Just adjust the balance to fit.
Same question to you then, ThriKreen - what do you give up for all the bounteous extra casting we want? Short rest recharge? Level progression? Slot level? Or do we give up Invocations instead because y'all insist on stronger casting without anything to pay or show for it, like they can just triple the number of Pact slots you get and not catch infinite hatred for it.
What gets to change? Something has to, so what gets to?
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This issue also exists with Paladin and Cleric now, Cleric casts iconic Paladin spells better than a Paladin, including all the smite spells. Given smite spells are now bonus action on hit, it makes cleric able to out smite paladin, significantly. Then you get find steed which cleric gets flying magical mounts sooner than Paladin does...
Who said “one slot” was enough?!? Certainly not I.
and they can increase the number of slots without tripping them.
I ask because I wants it.
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Square peg. Round hole. No thanks
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Fine.
Somebody explain how to fix Pact Magic without giving the warlock more spell slots, since Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic nor give warlocks more spell slots.
How do you guys intend to pull that off?
How do you solve "the most common, highly requested feedback we get for warlocks is more spells, more often" without changing Pact Magic?
Please do not contact or message me.
Who's saying not to give warlocks more spell slots?
micro-transactions!
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Litetally all of you?
"Nooo short rests are awesome, keep warlock a short rest class!"
"Nooo you can't give warlocks lower-level slots, keep them nothing but max casts!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
"Nooo you can't...!"
Every time I poke my tits into a warlock thread, half a dozen people are screaming about Identity and how NOTHING CAN CHANGE OR WARLOCKS AREN'T WARLOCKS ANYMORE. And look - I'm one of the people who hates that psychic abilities are always blown off as just shittier spellcasting. Identity is important. It really is. But so is actually being feasible, and Pact Magic has had its chance to prove it's feasible. It has failed.
How long do we need to cling to a failed system?
Unrelated: I ******** hate* posting from my phone. Literal wurst. I have no idea how you people tolerate it, Sposta et al.
Please do not contact or message me.
That's a weird ass strawman you've built there.
I haven't seen anyone arguing that Wizards is not allowed to get rid of Pact Magic. What I've seen people argue is that being turned into half-caster and having the option for 3rd, 4th and 5th level Mystic Arcanum spells is not adequate compensation for losing the spell slot level scaling we had previously.
If they intend on keeping the half-caster progression, I want them to at least add the "source: Warlock" tag to:
...and have them scaled (when applicable) in both at what level they can be attained, and how they scale when cast with higher level spellslots, so that Warlocks get to keep the same progression rate as they have in 5E, and that other classes are not better at casting them / get access to them earlier than Warlocks.
Because its not a flaw its a feature.
The "other classes are better with [X] spells than this class!" argument is a bad wrong argument. There is nothing wrong with cleric being able to smite, there is nothing wrong with sorcerers and wizards being able to cast eldritch spells (do you, like...not remember Aberrant sorcerer?), there is nothing wrong with druids being able to use arrow spells. Who cares if the full caster class gets them faster - their original class can generally make better use of them in the case of dingdongs and rangers, or the spells should never have been exclusive in the first place in the case of warlocks and their GOO-y junk. Other people can tap the power of the Far Planes, clerics crushing skulls with a mace blazing with holy light is as iconic as paladins doing it with a sword, and if a druid wants to invoke thorns or brambles with an arrow from their shortbow who are we to tell them they can't?
I play warlocks for Invocations and to a lesser extent the utility of certain pact boons. Up until this UA, I mostly considered their spellcasting a side-gig trick they never got to seriously use outside cantrips. In this UA they can actually cast spells.
Why should we settle for not casting spells when we could cast spells instead?
Please do not contact or message me.
Slapping arcane on the magic does not make half caster new.
1. Why can;t they get more slots.
2. Short rests+give an option to take damage in a short one minute ritual that reduces max hit points to recharge clots,. or short ritual that causes exhaustion to recharge clots.
Literally none of us are saying that. We don't want more slots through being a 1/2 casting crap goth ranger. We want more slots through a warlocks pact magic.
I genuinely wonder why people keep responding to posters that seem to refuse to engage in good faith
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
With 3 short rest a 5e warlork has 12 5th level spell slots. So the 5e version is still better since they could have as many spellslots as they could short rest per day. My version gets rid of short rest, but you still need a minute to restore a spell slot. Remember if you dip 1 warlock in 5e you still get that spell slots back on a short rest. Most people 2 level dip for invocations and 2 short rest recharge spell slots. I believe y’all are really overthinking this feature.
If Pact Magic gets revivified, maybe Pact of the Tome could provide lower level slots in addition to the Pact Magic slots. It makes sense flavor-wise, since Tome is supposed to be the castiest of Warlocks, and it provides something mechanics-wise to allow for easier utility. I'd prefer something that scales, but half-caster or third-caster progression might be a bit too fast for a pact boon. I dunno, just an idea that addresses some problems being raised.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Isn't it interesting that "not good faith" means "disagreeing with me"?
Pact Magic people are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on short rests. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on max-level slots. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on full caster progression. They are ABSOLUTELY UNWILLING to budge on, basically, anything at all. Everything about Pact Magic MUST remain exactly the same as R5e, but they also somehow expect Wizards to fix it.
Excuse me: *how*? They can't change anything about it, and the class budget to account for increased spellcasting has to come from SOMEWHERE. You don't get a character with four level 9 spell slots that recharge on a short rest, and you don't get a character with twelve level 5 slots that recharge on a short rest. The devs will NEVER allow that.
Something. Has. To. Give.
Something. Has. To. Change.
So what are you willing to budge on, to solve the fact that warlocks are widely and commonly considered to have too little spellcasting per the game's head developer? What do you give up to get better spellcasting? What do you give up to get "more spells, more often"? Because warlocks NEED more spells, more often...but the Pact Magic crowd refuses to allow it.
Why?
Please do not contact or message me.
I wonder if they had asked in the survey you are quoting, to players. "We can give your Warlock more spell casting but you won't get your highest level slot (5th) until level 17. How does that sound?" how many warlock players would be like, "woohoo!!! Lets do it. And please, hold off our 2nd level slots to 5th, our 3rd level slots to 9th, and our 4th level slots to 13th. That would be awesome!!!"
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
You keep saying this yet many in this very thread are saying it's absolutely fine to make them recharge on long rest. Just adjust the balance to fit.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Same question to you then, ThriKreen - what do you give up for all the bounteous extra casting we want? Short rest recharge? Level progression? Slot level? Or do we give up Invocations instead because y'all insist on stronger casting without anything to pay or show for it, like they can just triple the number of Pact slots you get and not catch infinite hatred for it.
What gets to change? Something has to, so what gets to?
Please do not contact or message me.