My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
At first level, Hex is already fine. It just doesn't scale in a way that makes you keep using it at higher levels. Which is not unreasonable per se, plenty of first level spells fail to remain relevant later in the game. Tying an upgrade to invocations means that whether you keep using hex is a choice, rather than just automatic.
Hex is okay as a first level spell already. It just doesn't really keep being wort
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
At first level, Hex is already fine. It just doesn't scale in a way that makes you keep using it at higher levels. Which is not unreasonable per se, plenty of first level spells fail to remain relevant later in the game. Tying an upgrade to invocations means that whether you keep using hex is a choice, rather than just automatic.
Hex is okay as a first level spell already. It just doesn't really keep being wort
But Hex isn't a choice, even if you don't use it, it's permanently prepared, which would normally imply, it's intended to be used, even at later levels.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
At first level, Hex is already fine. It just doesn't scale in a way that makes you keep using it at higher levels. Which is not unreasonable per se, plenty of first level spells fail to remain relevant later in the game. Tying an upgrade to invocations means that whether you keep using hex is a choice, rather than just automatic.
Hex is okay as a first level spell already. It just doesn't really keep being wort
But Hex isn't a choice, even if you don't use it, it's permanently prepared, which would normally imply, it's intended to be used, even at later levels.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
A spin on no concentration I think they could do is Hex requires concentration but does not count against their limit of how many spells they can concentrate on. So it can still be disrupted but it does not stop the warlock from using objectively better spells. And even with invocations I doubt it is going to line up with things like fear or animate objects etc.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
For me the key for this half-caster Warlock (which I like) is the scalability. So some abilities are nice to be at-will, as they cannot be upcasted, but those which can scale should do.
Taking MA as mentioned, that you choose a spell level casting indicated at the table, instead being at base level only. This could allow too to repeat spell, but at different levels.
For invocations, those who can scale (like the False Life one) would change to that you can cast it at the level equal to your max spell slot level, a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus for your Warlock level per long rest. Being able to cast False Life as level 3 spell 4 times per long rest at 9th level sounds much better than casting it at-will but as level 1, which makes it not worth. The sum of temporal hit points per long rest is not bad and seems useful.
This also could apply to abilites, like Hex Master, being able to cast Hex at level 5 6 times per long rest doesn’t sound any bad for me.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
Unless the damage is a massive boost its better to leave the single target damage to the fighter and use your spells for useful things like fear.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
The best alternative to this keeping the concentration rules the same would have been my original suggestion of "when upcast using a 3rd level slot or higher, this no longer requires concentration" Similar to how bestow curse works when people cast it as a 5th level spell or higher. And Ironically, if they make Hex warlock only and do this than the "no concentration hex" is unlocked at the same level as "no concentration bestow curse" is for full casters. And the 24 hour version is unlocked at the same time full casters are getting "permanent" bestow curse.
Hex at 3rd level only does 2d6 once per round, it would take 4 rounds of combat to match fireball on a single target, on 2 targets it would take 8 rounds, and on 3 it would take 12. This is a solid use of a spell slot and action economy.
The former benefit on hex was that it was basically "free" it didn't cost a spell slot because the duration was longer than the short rest needed to recover it.
As others have stated first level is fine, heck even using your concentration on it if you cast with a first level slot is fine. It means you are preserving higher level slots and don't have something you want to use your concentration on that fight. It only becomes a concentration problem when upcasting.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
Hex Master: "an accomplished warlock may at times fold their mind in impossible geometries while gripping eldritch power. you may cast the Hex spell without expending a spell slot. reroll all '1's for Hex damage. ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex. if an attack causes concentration of Hex to break, the warlock becomes dazed for once round per additional concentration spell maintained this way and all the warlock's concentration spell effects end immediately."
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That’s the same case than with Sorcery Incarnate. A solution could be that the spell ends if you lose concentration, but it does not count for your concentration limit. Class features that forces you to use the single concentration you have…not good.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
Hex Master: "an accomplished warlock may at times fold their mind in impossible geometries while gripping eldritch power. you may cast the Hex spell without expending a spell slot. reroll all '1's for Hex damage. ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex. if an attack causes concentration of Hex to break, the warlock becomes dazed for once round per additional concentration spell maintained this way and all the warlock's concentration spell effects end immediately."
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
Hex Master: "an accomplished warlock may at times fold their mind in impossible geometries while gripping eldritch power. you may cast the Hex spell without expending a spell slot. reroll all '1's for Hex damage. ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex. if an attack causes concentration of Hex to break, the warlock becomes dazed for once round per additional concentration spell maintained this way and all the warlock's concentration spell effects end immediately."
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
Yeah, multiple summoned creatures at one time with hex is a little crazy.
My preference is to have the Hexer invocation make Hex not require concentration.
I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
A spin on no concentration I think they could do is Hex requires concentration but does not count against their limit of how many spells they can concentrate on. So it can still be disrupted but it does not stop the warlock from using objectively better spells. And even with invocations I doubt it is going to line up with things like fear or animate objects etc.
Surprised no one’s talked about this yet. This would balance hex at all levels if it scaled.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
Hex Master: "an accomplished warlock may at times fold their mind in impossible geometries while gripping eldritch power. you may cast the Hex spell without expending a spell slot. reroll all '1's for Hex damage. ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex. if an attack causes concentration of Hex to break, the warlock becomes dazed for once round per additional concentration spell maintained this way and all the warlock's concentration spell effects end immediately."
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
yep. and Hexer invocation gives you advantage on the the CON save.
you couldn't summon a fiend and make it battle some conjured fey because you only have one 6th level MA. but i suppose once a day you could pull one of those out of your hat and still have a handful of hold monster slots. plus all that sweet, sweet level 1 Hex damage because free spells use the lowest slot, apparently. and you're still going to instantly lose concentration if you're incapacitated (paralyzed, petrified, stunned, asleep) and potentially be dazed for several turns if you do. is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
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Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules?
ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex.
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
Well, no.
But if the fix to Hex only arrives at level 18, I wouldn't really say it's fixed.
I haven't heard anybody say this, but shouldn't Hex just affect saving throws, like players always think it says it does? I feel like the penalty on ability checks is seriously a ribbon effect, and the fact that it reads like it's so much cooler is really kind of bad design, right? Like, imagine if Fireball said "each creature in the area burns to death and dies instantly... If the spell's damage is enough to kill it." Lol.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules?
ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex.
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
Well, no.
But if the fix to Hex only arrives at level 18, I wouldn't really say it's fixed.
I haven't heard anybody say this, but shouldn't Hex just affect saving throws, like players always think it says it does? I feel like the penalty on ability checks is seriously a ribbon effect, and the fact that it reads like it's so much cooler is really kind of bad design, right? Like, imagine if Fireball said "each creature in the area burns to death and dies instantly... If the spell's damage is enough to kill it." Lol.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
Hex Master: "an accomplished warlock may at times fold their mind in impossible geometries while gripping eldritch power. you may cast the Hex spell without expending a spell slot. reroll all '1's for Hex damage. ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex. if an attack causes concentration of Hex to break, the warlock becomes dazed for once round per additional concentration spell maintained this way and all the warlock's concentration spell effects end immediately."
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
yep. and Hexer invocation gives you advantage on the the CON save.
you couldn't summon a fiend and make it battle some conjured fey because you only have one 6th level MA. but i suppose once a day you could pull one of those out of your hat and still have a handful of hold monster slots. plus all that sweet, sweet level 1 Hex damage because free spells use the lowest slot, apparently. and you're still going to instantly lose concentration if you're incapacitated (paralyzed, petrified, stunned, asleep) and potentially be dazed for several turns if you do. is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
Compared to the Bladesinger having infinite castings of Shield 3 levels ago? Probably not.
is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
Concentration exists for a reason. What you're proposing doesn't actually make you you want to use hex, it just lets you ignore concentration for every other spell.
The fix for hex should be specific to hex. Making hex not cost concentration is not going to break anything, but making hex cause every other spell in the game to not cost concentration is absolutely going to break things.
is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
Concentration exists for a reason. What you're proposing doesn't actually make you you want to use hex, it just lets you ignore concentration for every other spell.
The fix for hex should be specific to hex. Making hex not cost concentration is not going to break anything, but making hex cause every other spell in the game to not cost concentration is absolutely going to break things.
i guess I'm only looking at DBB's current list of warlock spells and not the Arcane List from the UA, so things might be more dire than i think. but i can't see it yet. from the 5E list it seems like the warlock is still limited by the action economy (some of these concentration spells take more than 6 seconds to cast) and time limitations. also, i reiterate that if the DM wants to challenge you then you're not immune.
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I think we can do more interesting things with hex based invocations. Making it a worthwhile spell to cast on its own.... like EB..... and then adding invocations is just more interesting.
At first level, Hex is already fine. It just doesn't scale in a way that makes you keep using it at higher levels. Which is not unreasonable per se, plenty of first level spells fail to remain relevant later in the game. Tying an upgrade to invocations means that whether you keep using hex is a choice, rather than just automatic.
Hex is okay as a first level spell already. It just doesn't really keep being wort
But Hex isn't a choice, even if you don't use it, it's permanently prepared, which would normally imply, it's intended to be used, even at later levels.
Especially when your capstone is hex related.
A spin on no concentration I think they could do is Hex requires concentration but does not count against their limit of how many spells they can concentrate on. So it can still be disrupted but it does not stop the warlock from using objectively better spells. And even with invocations I doubt it is going to line up with things like fear or animate objects etc.
Is there an alternative benefit to provide Warlocks that keeps all classes using the same concentration rules? For example, could an invocation for a Warlock allow them to add more damage per round that their concentration is held, such as adding +1 damage or allow them to ignore low rolls on a die, such as a roll of 1 damage is a minimum of 2+, etc.? The goal is to give the Warlock a benefit for sustaining their concentration well.
For me the key for this half-caster Warlock (which I like) is the scalability. So some abilities are nice to be at-will, as they cannot be upcasted, but those which can scale should do.
Taking MA as mentioned, that you choose a spell level casting indicated at the table, instead being at base level only. This could allow too to repeat spell, but at different levels.
For invocations, those who can scale (like the False Life one) would change to that you can cast it at the level equal to your max spell slot level, a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus for your Warlock level per long rest. Being able to cast False Life as level 3 spell 4 times per long rest at 9th level sounds much better than casting it at-will but as level 1, which makes it not worth. The sum of temporal hit points per long rest is not bad and seems useful.
This also could apply to abilites, like Hex Master, being able to cast Hex at level 5 6 times per long rest doesn’t sound any bad for me.
Unless the damage is a massive boost its better to leave the single target damage to the fighter and use your spells for useful things like fear.
The best alternative to this keeping the concentration rules the same would have been my original suggestion of "when upcast using a 3rd level slot or higher, this no longer requires concentration" Similar to how bestow curse works when people cast it as a 5th level spell or higher. And Ironically, if they make Hex warlock only and do this than the "no concentration hex" is unlocked at the same level as "no concentration bestow curse" is for full casters. And the 24 hour version is unlocked at the same time full casters are getting "permanent" bestow curse.
Hex at 3rd level only does 2d6 once per round, it would take 4 rounds of combat to match fireball on a single target, on 2 targets it would take 8 rounds, and on 3 it would take 12. This is a solid use of a spell slot and action economy.
The former benefit on hex was that it was basically "free" it didn't cost a spell slot because the duration was longer than the short rest needed to recover it.
As others have stated first level is fine, heck even using your concentration on it if you cast with a first level slot is fine. It means you are preserving higher level slots and don't have something you want to use your concentration on that fight. It only becomes a concentration problem when upcasting.
Hex Master: "an accomplished warlock may at times fold their mind in impossible geometries while gripping eldritch power. you may cast the Hex spell without expending a spell slot. reroll all '1's for Hex damage. ignore concentration for other spells while maintaining Hex. if an attack causes concentration of Hex to break, the warlock becomes dazed for once round per additional concentration spell maintained this way and all the warlock's concentration spell effects end immediately."
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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That’s the same case than with Sorcery Incarnate. A solution could be that the spell ends if you lose concentration, but it does not count for your concentration limit. Class features that forces you to use the single concentration you have…not good.
So instead of allowing Hex to ignore concentration, you allow every other spell to ignore concentration while using Hex? That's asking for trouble.
Yeah, multiple summoned creatures at one time with hex is a little crazy.
Surprised no one’s talked about this yet. This would balance hex at all levels if it scaled.
yep. and Hexer invocation gives you advantage on the the CON save.
you couldn't summon a fiend and make it battle some conjured fey because you only have one 6th level MA. but i suppose once a day you could pull one of those out of your hat and still have a handful of hold monster slots. plus all that sweet, sweet level 1 Hex damage because free spells use the lowest slot, apparently. and you're still going to instantly lose concentration if you're incapacitated (paralyzed, petrified, stunned, asleep) and potentially be dazed for several turns if you do. is that really so overwhelmingly powerful at level 18, 19, and 20?
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
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Well, no.
But if the fix to Hex only arrives at level 18, I wouldn't really say it's fixed.
I haven't heard anybody say this, but shouldn't Hex just affect saving throws, like players always think it says it does? I feel like the penalty on ability checks is seriously a ribbon effect, and the fact that it reads like it's so much cooler is really kind of bad design, right? Like, imagine if Fireball said "each creature in the area burns to death and dies instantly... If the spell's damage is enough to kill it." Lol.
No, DA of saving throws is Broken AF.
Compared to the Bladesinger having infinite castings of Shield 3 levels ago? Probably not.
Concentration exists for a reason. What you're proposing doesn't actually make you you want to use hex, it just lets you ignore concentration for every other spell.
The fix for hex should be specific to hex. Making hex not cost concentration is not going to break anything, but making hex cause every other spell in the game to not cost concentration is absolutely going to break things.
i guess I'm only looking at DBB's current list of warlock spells and not the Arcane List from the UA, so things might be more dire than i think. but i can't see it yet. from the 5E list it seems like the warlock is still limited by the action economy (some of these concentration spells take more than 6 seconds to cast) and time limitations. also, i reiterate that if the DM wants to challenge you then you're not immune.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!