I think ss dominating the power budget of monks is one reason they suck.
id rather they put in on a subclass or make it an option. A monk having to be a stun Bot is kind of lame especially cause a caster has better control and doesn't lose the ability to have damage in Exhange .
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
No, you weren't bringing up hold spells. You've been dismissing them, and spellcasting in general, out of hand. You aren't engaging in the same conversation as everyone else is.
And you're dead wrong about the spell lists for paladin subclasses in UA6. The Oath of Vengeance has three, excluding Hold Person and Hold Monster. Oath of the Ancients has three such spells. Hell, even Oath of Glory has one. And this is before we start including any uses of Channel Divinity which force a saving throw.
I have to hand it to you. The sheer confidence with which you're spitting falsehoods, whether you intend to or not, is impressive. Having said that, it's making it rather difficult to take your other tanking points seriously.
I think ss dominating the power budget of monks is one reason they suck.
id rather they put in on a subclass or make it an option. A monk having to be a stun Bot is kind of lame especially cause a caster has better control and doesn't lose the ability to have damage in Exhange .
I think they are putting a little too much into how much that power budget is at higher levels. The problem monk is facing is similar to barbarian and ranger. These 3 classes in general have very little power going into the third tier of play. At level 5 a monk's damage isn't bad and its ki costs should be used judiciously to match the situation whether that is more damage with flurry or if they have a good target they can stun (not all targets are good targets for stun) they can use stunning strike, the others are rarer circumstances but can still occur as well. As ki becomes more plentiful and cheaper to use so to does the power of these abilities relative to other classes drop. I believe that is where the issue ultimately lies.
Patient defense and step of the wind were already niche, and higher up they become more niche. FoB goes from being a good way to burst damage to being the only way to keep up with the most basic of damage. Stunning strike goes from good against some targets, to must use nearly every round to be "useful" and roll that roulette wheel. You have more uses, but their relative power is not what they were when you first got them.
Aside from Hexadin, Paladins build to cast Smites, not Hold Person. Or Guardian of Faith, or Zone of Truth, or the other handful of abilities which have a save DC of any kind to begin with. The primary reason for a non-multiclass Paladin to boost Charisma further isn't to cast spells; it's to use Aura of Protection for improved saving throws across the entire party.
Paldins have a secondary stat for save DCs that's used for secondary abilities that they aren't expected to rely on. For Monks their primary ability that the entire class is balanced around AS WELL AS their only built-in method of getting AC requires this secondary stat to be maximized for doing those things passably well.
Paladins have spell slots, not smite slots. If you are ignoring your spellcasting, you're playing them wrong.
My point is that most Paladin spells do not care about save DC and then ones that do are outliers. The most iconic paladin spells are the Smites but the other spells are things like Find Steed, Cure Wounds, Detect Evil & Good and similar. Prior to UA6 even Banishing Smite didn't trigger a save until after it has already gone off.
I don't know that I'd call 29% (13/45) of their core spell list outliers. It's certainly not any way I've ever seen the word used before, but I suppose that's beside the point. The 2014 version of Banishing Smite never forced a saving throw. Charisma is still the second-most-important ability score for paladins. It affects not only it's spell save DC, but also the number of spells it can prepare, the relative strength of Aura of Protection, and one of its two saving throw proficiencies.
Sorry for the rabbit trail, but why so dismissive of secondary statistics? Whether it's the monk's Wisdom or the paladin's Charisma, both are important to their respective classes. Again, allow me to repeat my point...this time, in context.
The save DC for a monk is no worse than a paladin's, since both are relying on their secondary attribute. And the Oath of Vengeance grants Hold Person, so if you're dismissing the monk's save DC out of hand you're also dismissing what "common knowledge" calls one of the most powerful class/subclass combinations in the game.
Since others keep bringing up hold spells, I would think this seems rather apropos.
Ok but I wasn't bringing up hold spells. I was bringing up secondary stats.
In UA6, nearly all of the Paladin spells with a save DC listed are subclass spells. There is no other Paladin besides Vengeance in UA6 that has save DC spells like Hold Person or Hold Monster. Most generic Paladin spells do not have a save DC at all. The generic Paladin is not balanced around it's extensive selection of spells with save DCs. The Paladin is balanced around it's collection of Smite spells, which are massive Nova damage dealers.
The Monk, as a core class, is entirely balanced around the 5th level feature Stunning Strike. The core Monk is balanced around it. The Shadow Monk is balanced around it. Mercy. Astral Self. Long Death. Four Elements. Sunsoul. They are *all* balanced around every Monk potentially inflicting the Stunned condition multiple times per rest. But unlike other classes that build this much around a single feature, this feature is dependent on 2 different attributes to inflict in 90% of all cases (Astral Self being the single exception with its ability to attack with Wisdom). So you have something like a 60% chance to hit on average in the first place, and then only a roughly 50% chance at best to inflict Stunned when they made a saving throw against Monk Wisdom. And that's only if you optimize your attribute distribution and ASIs.
Monk players have on average a 30% chance or less to successfully inflict the Stunned condition. This is why the 2014 PHB allowed players to SS with every melee attack - it was the only reliable way to get a Stunning Strike through at all. But now the Monk has been de facto nerfed because 99% chance was too much. However 30% or less is almost useless. This would be fixed a bit better if players could invest a single attribute into both their attack and save DC like the other battlefield controllers (nearly all full spellcasters) who can raise their main attribute every 4 levels. Instead Monk must hope that whichever attribute deficiency it is currently dealing with is not the one which will soon it's next Stunning Strike attempt.
No, you weren't bringing up hold spells. You've been dismissing them, and spellcasting in general, out of hand. You aren't engaging in the same conversation as everyone else is.
And you're dead wrong about the spell lists for paladin subclasses in UA6. The Oath of Vengeance has three, excluding Hold Person and Hold Monster. Oath of the Ancients has three such spells. Hell, even Oath of Glory has one. And this is before we start including any uses of Channel Divinity which force a saving throw.
I have to hand it to you. The sheer confidence with which you're spitting falsehoods, whether you intend to or not, is impressive. Having said that, it's making it rather difficult to take your other tanking points seriously.
You literally just demonstrated with your example that aside from ONE Channel Divinity core feature (Level 9: Abjure Foes) nearly all paladin save DCs come from subclass spells. In UA6, you can alternatively get a save DC feature from Channel Divinity if you are an Oath of Ancients Paladin and use Nature's Wrath. That's it. there are only 2 non-spell save DCs for Paladins. One is a level 9 class feature and the other is a level 3 feature for a single subclass.
If that 9th level feature goes of, a maximum of 5 creatures (Charisma mod) become Frightened and Dazed. There's nothing wrong with these conditions, but in terms of raw power these features aren't even mechanically on the same plane of existence. Abjure Foes is a neat 9th level crowd control bonus. Stunning Strike is something entire parties are built around. But you appear to think they are equally impactful on class design. They are not.
I think ss dominating the power budget of monks is one reason they suck.
id rather they put in on a subclass or make it an option. A monk having to be a stun Bot is kind of lame especially cause a caster has better control and doesn't lose the ability to have damage in Exhange .
I think they are putting a little too much into how much that power budget is at higher levels. The problem monk is facing is similar to barbarian and ranger. These 3 classes in general have very little power going into the third tier of play. At level 5 a monk's damage isn't bad and its ki costs should be used judiciously to match the situation whether that is more damage with flurry or if they have a good target they can stun (not all targets are good targets for stun) they can use stunning strike, the others are rarer circumstances but can still occur as well. As ki becomes more plentiful and cheaper to use so to does the power of these abilities relative to other classes drop. I believe that is where the issue ultimately lies.
Patient defense and step of the wind were already niche, and higher up they become more niche. FoB goes from being a good way to burst damage to being the only way to keep up with the most basic of damage. Stunning strike goes from good against some targets, to must use nearly every round to be "useful" and roll that roulette wheel. You have more uses, but their relative power is not what they were when you first got them.
Excellent summary. The issues I being up with Monk and in my recent posts about Monk vs Paladin is that Monks get progressively weaker as campaigns progress, while most other classes become demonstrably stronger. Paladin happens to be one of the most mechanically consistent examples of "growth over time" specifically because it becomes less hampered by early MAD issues without needing to optimize attributes or specialize in a particular multiclass hack. Everything about Paladin is designed to feed into the Paladin mechanical loop, so it becomes easy to express in gameplay no matter what particular theme your character or campaign was aiming for.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
instead of extra attack, maybe an extra strike in FoB. nearly the same thing at that level, and doesnt cause flurry to seem like an afterthought.
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This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
I wouldn't say it solves "a lot of issues", it would only really help with the damage scaling into tier 3/4. Personally I'd still prefer something different, like a reaction attack of some kind instead; e.g- something like Riposte (attack an enemy who misses you, which would combo well with Patient Defense), maybe also expand Deflect Missile to work against more attack types.
This would give the Monk a similar choice of offence vs. defence on its reaction as it does on its bonus action, giving you more ways to mix them together (use both offensive or defensively, or mix together). Ideally it would be further bolstered with other reaction and bonus action options so it's not just the two for each (plus the occasional Step of the Wind or Slow Fall only when you need it).
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (though I could have missed it) is since they've rolled other Tasha's Cauldron optional features into base classes (i.e- Steady Aim for Rogue) they should do the same for Monk. Focused Aim (spend up to three Ki on a miss for +2 to hit per Ki) and Ki-fuelled Attack (full bonus action attack with any weapon after spending Ki) are both nice bonus features to have. It would be nice to see these got stronger at later levels, i.e- if Focused Aim scaled up to +5 to hit per Ki it would make it inexpensive for a Monk to turn near misses into hits, or to all but guarantee hitting with all of their attacks in a turn; this doesn't affect maximum potential damage but does boost average damage/consistency.
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What about similar to Ki fueled Attacks but just “once on your turn, if you use a Ki point (discipline point) you can make an attack with an unarmed strike or monk weapon (or simple weapon) as part of spending that Ki/DP. Might stack too much but could qualify that to not work with FoB if that’s too much. But then PD or SotW wouldn’t make you lose out on the BA damage.
What about similar to Ki fueled Attacks but just “once on your turn, if you use a Ki point (discipline point) you can make an attack with an unarmed strike or monk weapon (or simple weapon) as part of spending that Ki/DP. Might stack too much but could qualify that to not work with FoB if that’s too much. But then PD or SotW wouldn’t make you lose out on the BA damage.
My problem with this is that it reinforces the idea that to keep up with the DPR other classes do for free Monks need to spend Ki/Discipline. That's fine if the Ki isn't just improving DPR, but it should be noted that a large number of the non-damage Ki uses the Monk received along with Ki-Fueled Strikes were part of the Tasha's Cauldron optional class features.
This is why a lot of what I did in my homebrew earlier was use Ki to improve action economy, not damage. It didn't dramatically improve DPR but it did mean that you could get more bang for your buck during your turns and reactions, so the DPR was offset by dramatic flexibility improvements with how many different things you could do on a turn.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
I wouldn't say it solves "a lot of issues", it would only really help with the damage scaling into tier 3/4. Personally I'd still prefer something different, like a reaction attack of some kind instead; e.g- something like Riposte (attack an enemy who misses you, which would combo well with Patient Defense), maybe also expand Deflect Missile to work against more attack types.
This would give the Monk a similar choice of offence vs. defence on its reaction as it does on its bonus action, giving you more ways to mix them together (use both offensive or defensively, or mix together). Ideally it would be further bolstered with out reaction and bonus action options so it's not just the two for each (plus the occasional Step of the Wind or Slow Fall only when you need it).
I'm in full agreement about better Reaction options. People are probably tired about hearing my desire for Deflect Missiles to be changed to Deflect Attack. If Deflect Attack is available, then perhaps Patient Defense could give additional uses of Deflect Attack.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (though I could have missed it) is since they've rolled other Tasha's Cauldron optional features into base classes (i.e- Steady Aim for Rogue) they should do the same for Monk. Focused Aim (spend up to three Ki on a miss for +2 to hit per Ki) and Ki-fuelled Attack (full bonus action attack with any weapon after spending Ki) are both nice bonus features to have. It would be nice to see these got stronger at later levels, i.e- if Focused Aim scaled up to +5 to hit per Ki it would make it inexpensive for a Monk to turn near misses into hits, or to all but guarantee hitting with all of their attacks in a turn; this doesn't affect maximum potential damage but does boost average damage/consistency.
Instead of Ki-fueled Attack, I would rather just remove the condition "when you use the Attack Action" from the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike & Flurry of Blows. Then Bonus Action Unarmed Strike & Flurry of Blows can be used independent of the Action. This would allow main Action Dodge plus Bonus Action Attack. And would avoid extra wording on abilities like Elemental Monk's Environmental Burst (Before or after you take this action, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action.)
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
I wouldn't say it solves "a lot of issues", it would only really help with the damage scaling into tier 3/4. Personally I'd still prefer something different, like a reaction attack of some kind instead; e.g- something like Riposte (attack an enemy who misses you, which would combo well with Patient Defense), maybe also expand Deflect Missile to work against more attack types.
This would give the Monk a similar choice of offence vs. defence on its reaction as it does on its bonus action, giving you more ways to mix them together (use both offensive or defensively, or mix together). Ideally it would be further bolstered with out reaction and bonus action options so it's not just the two for each (plus the occasional Step of the Wind or Slow Fall only when you need it).
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (though I could have missed it) is since they've rolled other Tasha's Cauldron optional features into base classes (i.e- Steady Aim for Rogue) they should do the same for Monk. Focused Aim (spend up to three Ki on a miss for +2 to hit per Ki) and Ki-fuelled Attack (full bonus action attack with any weapon after spending Ki) are both nice bonus features to have. It would be nice to see these got stronger at later levels, i.e- if Focused Aim scaled up to +5 to hit per Ki it would make it inexpensive for a Monk to turn near misses into hits, or to all but guarantee hitting with all of their attacks in a turn; this doesn't affect maximum potential damage but does boost average damage/consistency.
It actually solves a little more than damage scaling into higher levels. Part of the problem with lack of damage scaling on a martial character with the resources that the monk has is the resources goes from providing flexibility and choice, like it does as lower levels, to being needed to spend to simply contribute. By making it where the class can contribute the flexibility of the resource returns without making any of the options you are spending it on over powered.
The monk doesn't really have much of an issue before level 11 once the early level ki issue is solved. The monk is very strong from level 1-4. At 5 it is ok, but starts running into ki issues, this monk solves the ki issues by level 7.
I would not be opposed to the removal of "when you take the attack action" from the martial arts ability or Flurry of blows. I believe with that and the fighters third attack at level 11 in addition to Tasha's features and adding what they talked about at level 5 where they give something similar to the sorcerer's recovery on initiative roll for ki in addition to the metabolism at level 7 the monk would be a respectable class. It is already decent from level 1-10 it really just needs that bump at 11+.
(Damage comparisons from level 1-10 don't put the monk on top of the list, but they still put them in a good spot with good flexibility to go for more damage, stun, mobility or defense as needed. A class with that kind of flexibility I classify as good... .it does need out of combat stuff still though, which is why I would still love to see the level 9 feature just be rolled into unarmored movement at much lower levels).
Its clear you think you know what your are talking about, but its also clear that you actually don't. But I'll give you this. You are excellent at side tracking the convo into debates about how monk is fine, though almost everyone here knows they are not. Mostly because the people left in the thread have a hard time walking away from the misinformation and disguised bad takes(myself included)
lets get real, have you playtested the UA6 monk. What subclasses have you tried? When is the last time you played the 2014 monk? what subclasses? How do they compare to other UA6 classes you playtested?
So, I'm going to be frank here.
I saw people insisting that two-weapon fighting surpassed the Monk's damage output. I did the simple math in-thread and found this was not the case. The Monk Bad crowd continued to insist otherwise.
I saw people declare that Action Surge was a superior damage boost to Flurry of Blows, so I did the simple math and found that was incorrect, due to FoB increasing in uses as the Monk levels versus Action Surge only scaling with Extra Attacks. The Monk Bad crowd insisted otherwise, despite not supporting their claim with their own math.
I saw people say that Monk subclasses don't contribute to their DPR, so I went and listed every Monk subclass feature that increases their damage output. The Monk Bad crowd just insisted those features didn't count.
So you talk about "misunformation and bad takes", but every time Monk players offer their own experiences and substantiated arguments, the Monk Bad crowd declares such to be less valid than featureless-void "theorycrafting" and hypotheticals.
And it'd be one thing if it was just about "improving" the Monk, but a good chunk of the Monk Bad crowd expects the class to be overhauled to suit them alone. No small number of proposed changes blatantly weaken the base Monk or make the class more shallow (e.g. dropping Wisdom from the class's features) in favour of making their features more exploitable for multiclassing. Rather than playing a class they enjoy, much of the Monk Bad crowd wants a class many people play and enjoy to be changed to their preference.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
instead of extra attack, maybe an extra strike in FoB. nearly the same thing at that level, and doesnt cause flurry to seem like an afterthought.
FoB is already what 90% of ki gets spent on, PD is occasionally used, and SotW almost never unless you are fleeing. Because having half your damage wrapped up in a single option means that option is just so far superior to all the others it is really hard to justify using anything else. If this was increased to 60% of your damage being locked behind FoB you can bet nobody would ever use any other of the BA options.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
instead of extra attack, maybe an extra strike in FoB. nearly the same thing at that level, and doesnt cause flurry to seem like an afterthought.
FoB is already what 90% of ki gets spent on, PD is occasionally used, and SotW almost never unless you are fleeing. Because having half your damage wrapped up in a single option means that option is just so far superior to all the others it is really hard to justify using anything else. If this was increased to 60% of your damage being locked behind FoB you can bet nobody would ever use any other of the BA options.
yup, a major issue is the opportunity cost and action economy of those three features. its not the only issue, but its one of the big ones.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
I wouldn't say it solves "a lot of issues", it would only really help with the damage scaling into tier 3/4. Personally I'd still prefer something different, like a reaction attack of some kind instead; e.g- something like Riposte (attack an enemy who misses you, which would combo well with Patient Defense), maybe also expand Deflect Missile to work against more attack types.
This would give the Monk a similar choice of offence vs. defence on its reaction as it does on its bonus action, giving you more ways to mix them together (use both offensive or defensively, or mix together). Ideally it would be further bolstered with out reaction and bonus action options so it's not just the two for each (plus the occasional Step of the Wind or Slow Fall only when you need it).
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (though I could have missed it) is since they've rolled other Tasha's Cauldron optional features into base classes (i.e- Steady Aim for Rogue) they should do the same for Monk. Focused Aim (spend up to three Ki on a miss for +2 to hit per Ki) and Ki-fuelled Attack (full bonus action attack with any weapon after spending Ki) are both nice bonus features to have. It would be nice to see these got stronger at later levels, i.e- if Focused Aim scaled up to +5 to hit per Ki it would make it inexpensive for a Monk to turn near misses into hits, or to all but guarantee hitting with all of their attacks in a turn; this doesn't affect maximum potential damage but does boost average damage/consistency.
It actually solves a little more than damage scaling into higher levels. Part of the problem with lack of damage scaling on a martial character with the resources that the monk has is the resources goes from providing flexibility and choice, like it does as lower levels, to being needed to spend to simply contribute. By making it where the class can contribute the flexibility of the resource returns without making any of the options you are spending it on over powered.
The monk doesn't really have much of an issue before level 11 once the early level ki issue is solved. The monk is very strong from level 1-4. At 5 it is ok, but starts running into ki issues, this monk solves the ki issues by level 7.
I would not be opposed to the removal of "when you take the attack action" from the martial arts ability or Flurry of blows. I believe with that and the fighters third attack at level 11 in addition to Tasha's features and adding what they talked about at level 5 where they give something similar to the sorcerer's recovery on initiative roll for ki in addition to the metabolism at level 7 the monk would be a respectable class. It is already decent from level 1-10 it really just needs that bump at 11+.
(Damage comparisons from level 1-10 don't put the monk on top of the list, but they still put them in a good spot with good flexibility to go for more damage, stun, mobility or defense as needed. A class with that kind of flexibility I classify as good... .it does need out of combat stuff still though, which is why I would still love to see the level 9 feature just be rolled into unarmored movement at much lower levels).
While level 1-10 the Monk has respectable offence, the defense/survivability is the worst of all the martial characters. Lowest HP, middling AC, no healing, virtually no damage mitigation, expensive Disengage, and melee features mean the Monk is the most likely to be knocked out. Simply fixing the early Ki Point issues will not fix the survivability problem. Which is why I am a staunch supporter of changing Deflect Missiles to Deflect Attack.
I agree with you that the best out of combat improvement is moving the level 9 wall/water running to a lower level. Flavorful, unique, effective, and balanced.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
instead of extra attack, maybe an extra strike in FoB. nearly the same thing at that level, and doesnt cause flurry to seem like an afterthought.
FoB is already what 90% of ki gets spent on, PD is occasionally used, and SotW almost never unless you are fleeing. Because having half your damage wrapped up in a single option means that option is just so far superior to all the others it is really hard to justify using anything else. If this was increased to 60% of your damage being locked behind FoB you can bet nobody would ever use any other of the BA options.
yup, a major issue is the opportunity cost and action economy of those three features. its not the only issue, but its one of the big ones.
What if, as part of spending that Ki/DP for PD or SotW you can make one unarmed strike, before or after PD/SotW? You wouldn’t lose as much damage (same damage as using your BA martial arts attack but at a Ki/DP cost). SotW could go back to either/or for that one point if getting both (per UA6) is too much.
I had also been thinking about stunning strike and what if instead of Stunned you do Dazed plus an additional Unarmed Strike die damage.
5th level Stunning Strike
Once on your turn when you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or simple weapon you can spend 1 discipline point and attempt a stunning strike. The creature takes additional damage equal to one roll of your martial arts die and must succeed on a constitution saving throw or be Dazed until the start of your next turn.
At 11th level, if the creature fails the constitution saving throw they are Stunned instead of Dazed until the start of your next turn
I had been thinking maybe a Hunter Ranger’s Colossus Slayer like ability would be good as its own feature to help with damage Tier 3 & 4. But what if it was tied to SS?
Probably not the best compromise but was just a thought.
Use Wisdom as the single ability score needed for all monk bonuses (ala the hexblade's Charisma). Monks and martial artists are WISE in using their body movements. It's not always about Strength and Dexterity, although those help. They WISELY choose how to use their bodies (like a Jedi or Spiderman's Spidey Sense or fast movement as shown in the first Tobey Maguire movie).
Use Wisdom + Dexterity + Proficiency Bonus or Wisdom + Dexterity + Constitution for Unarmored Defense. All other martial classes get essentially 3 bonuses to their AC: Dexterity + Armor + Shield, or Heavy Armor + Shield. Even barbarians get Dexterity + Constitution + Shield. Monks should get the same benefit. Since they can't use a shield as the 3rd bonus to their AC, something else needs to be put in place. The Proficiency Bonus makes sense because of a martial artist's training. Constitution also makes sense because martial artists can control their bodies in crazy ways, breaking cinder blocks and boards with their bare fists, etc.
Bump the Monk's hit dice to a d10 like all other martial classes. Again, martial artists are not soft and squishy. They can take a hit.
Give Monks something akin to fighting styles at 1st level, maybe something like:
Offensive: The "Studied Attack" fighter feature. On a miss they get advantage on the next attack against that same creature
Use Wisdom as the single ability score needed for all monk bonuses (ala the hexblade's Charisma).
I like this approach. It emphasizes that they are NOT physical fighters but deeply into the mystical focus of their style.
Leave Dex based unarmed fighting to the Fighter and Bard subclasses for unarmed fighting (I’m specifically not saying Brawler, since I think that should be the name of a Barb based unarmed fighter). And obviously the Rogue, assuming they have some way to get access to Unarmed Fighting.
I’m also going to add one thing that isn’t on your list (and add it before the rest of your list)
1st weapon proficiencies are: Simple + 2 Martial Weapons (maybe limit the 2 martiala to light or finesse, but part of me says no: any 2 martial weapons; there are many examples that could fit pole arms, for example). These are your “Monk Weapons.”
And: Armor Proficiency: Shields (nothing else). I will explain in the next section.
Use Wisdom + Dexterity + Proficiency Bonus or Wisdom + Dexterity + Constitution for Unarmored Defense.
I think this is a place to double down on SAD:
AC = 10 + WIS MOD + PB Further, they can choose:
Bonus Action attack(s) OR Patient Defense OR wielding a shield
(there are examples of asian martial artists with a Dao sword and shield, but no armor; so add shield proficiency but no armor proficiencies, and pick (reskinned) scimitar as one of your 2 martial weapon picks)
So, basically, you can’t use Bonus Action Unarmed Strike nor FoB nor Light Weapon Bonus Action Attack if you wield a shield. Nor can you use your Bonus Action to Dodge. But otherwise you can do all of your other abilities while wielding a shield.
Bump the Monk's hit dice to a d10 like all other martial classes.
I’m slightly agnostic about this one. I’ve never had a Monk who was taken down to 0 hp .. not even while tanking. I know that seems a little extreme, but Monks depend on the group healer(s) just as much as the other Martials do. I can see this change going either way.
Give Monks something akin to fighting styles at 1st level, maybe something like:
Offensive: The "Studied Attack" fighter feature. On a miss they get advantage on the next attack against that same creature
Defensive: Can Dodge as a reaction
Mobile: Never trigger opportunity attacks
What about … give them a version of Sneak Attack (only usable unarmed or with your Monk Weapons) that has fewer dice, but has dice per attack instead of dice per round. Then give them Cunning Strikes like maneuvers (not the exact same list, just the ones that make sense for a Monk, and maybe one or two that a Rogue doesn’t get). Maybe it only works with your Attack Action attacks, not including Nick, and not your Bonus Action attacks (so, you only get these dice once or twice per turn).
This also helps to solve perceptions about Monk damage not keeping up. And also gives Monks some way to access special martial arts maneuvers for flavor.
One of those could be a parry action: once per turn you can sacrifice two of your dice to add one die roll to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Let’s say: starting at 4th level you get the dice. 1d6 per attack from 4th - 10th levels. 2 dice from 11th-15th levels. 3 dice for 16th level and above.
Warrior Of Weapons will get full Martial Weapon proficiency, and the ability to use these dice with their special weapons.
Warrior of Shadows will get the Thieve’s Stealth Attack.
What to call these dice? Disciplined Attack dice? (as opposed to sneak attack dice).
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I think ss dominating the power budget of monks is one reason they suck.
id rather they put in on a subclass or make it an option. A monk having to be a stun Bot is kind of lame especially cause a caster has better control and doesn't lose the ability to have damage in Exhange .
It IS comparable to a 4th level spell, but not that spell.
Staggering Smite is Stunning Strike plus extra damage.
No, you weren't bringing up hold spells. You've been dismissing them, and spellcasting in general, out of hand. You aren't engaging in the same conversation as everyone else is.
And you're dead wrong about the spell lists for paladin subclasses in UA6. The Oath of Vengeance has three, excluding Hold Person and Hold Monster. Oath of the Ancients has three such spells. Hell, even Oath of Glory has one. And this is before we start including any uses of Channel Divinity which force a saving throw.
I have to hand it to you. The sheer confidence with which you're spitting falsehoods, whether you intend to or not, is impressive. Having said that, it's making it rather difficult to take your other tanking points seriously.
I think they are putting a little too much into how much that power budget is at higher levels. The problem monk is facing is similar to barbarian and ranger. These 3 classes in general have very little power going into the third tier of play. At level 5 a monk's damage isn't bad and its ki costs should be used judiciously to match the situation whether that is more damage with flurry or if they have a good target they can stun (not all targets are good targets for stun) they can use stunning strike, the others are rarer circumstances but can still occur as well. As ki becomes more plentiful and cheaper to use so to does the power of these abilities relative to other classes drop. I believe that is where the issue ultimately lies.
Patient defense and step of the wind were already niche, and higher up they become more niche. FoB goes from being a good way to burst damage to being the only way to keep up with the most basic of damage. Stunning strike goes from good against some targets, to must use nearly every round to be "useful" and roll that roulette wheel. You have more uses, but their relative power is not what they were when you first got them.
You literally just demonstrated with your example that aside from ONE Channel Divinity core feature (Level 9: Abjure Foes) nearly all paladin save DCs come from subclass spells. In UA6, you can alternatively get a save DC feature from Channel Divinity if you are an Oath of Ancients Paladin and use Nature's Wrath. That's it. there are only 2 non-spell save DCs for Paladins. One is a level 9 class feature and the other is a level 3 feature for a single subclass.
If that 9th level feature goes of, a maximum of 5 creatures (Charisma mod) become Frightened and Dazed. There's nothing wrong with these conditions, but in terms of raw power these features aren't even mechanically on the same plane of existence. Abjure Foes is a neat 9th level crowd control bonus. Stunning Strike is something entire parties are built around. But you appear to think they are equally impactful on class design. They are not.
Excellent summary. The issues I being up with Monk and in my recent posts about Monk vs Paladin is that Monks get progressively weaker as campaigns progress, while most other classes become demonstrably stronger. Paladin happens to be one of the most mechanically consistent examples of "growth over time" specifically because it becomes less hampered by early MAD issues without needing to optimize attributes or specialize in a particular multiclass hack. Everything about Paladin is designed to feed into the Paladin mechanical loop, so it becomes easy to express in gameplay no matter what particular theme your character or campaign was aiming for.
This may sound like a boring solution, but giving them the third extra attack at 11 like fighter gets may just be the solution. It would make the ki abilities still relevant. FoB would still be about getting extra burst, you can contribute and still target good targets with stunning strike, dodge and disengage can be used without feeling like you are losing too much damage....it is simple, it is clean solves a lot of issues.
instead of extra attack, maybe an extra strike in FoB. nearly the same thing at that level, and doesnt cause flurry to seem like an afterthought.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
I wouldn't say it solves "a lot of issues", it would only really help with the damage scaling into tier 3/4. Personally I'd still prefer something different, like a reaction attack of some kind instead; e.g- something like Riposte (attack an enemy who misses you, which would combo well with Patient Defense), maybe also expand Deflect Missile to work against more attack types.
This would give the Monk a similar choice of offence vs. defence on its reaction as it does on its bonus action, giving you more ways to mix them together (use both offensive or defensively, or mix together). Ideally it would be further bolstered with other reaction and bonus action options so it's not just the two for each (plus the occasional Step of the Wind or Slow Fall only when you need it).
One thing I haven't seen mentioned (though I could have missed it) is since they've rolled other Tasha's Cauldron optional features into base classes (i.e- Steady Aim for Rogue) they should do the same for Monk. Focused Aim (spend up to three Ki on a miss for +2 to hit per Ki) and Ki-fuelled Attack (full bonus action attack with any weapon after spending Ki) are both nice bonus features to have. It would be nice to see these got stronger at later levels, i.e- if Focused Aim scaled up to +5 to hit per Ki it would make it inexpensive for a Monk to turn near misses into hits, or to all but guarantee hitting with all of their attacks in a turn; this doesn't affect maximum potential damage but does boost average damage/consistency.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
What about similar to Ki fueled Attacks but just “once on your turn, if you use a Ki point (discipline point) you can make an attack with an unarmed strike or monk weapon (or simple weapon) as part of spending that Ki/DP. Might stack too much but could qualify that to not work with FoB if that’s too much. But then PD or SotW wouldn’t make you lose out on the BA damage.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
My problem with this is that it reinforces the idea that to keep up with the DPR other classes do for free Monks need to spend Ki/Discipline. That's fine if the Ki isn't just improving DPR, but it should be noted that a large number of the non-damage Ki uses the Monk received along with Ki-Fueled Strikes were part of the Tasha's Cauldron optional class features.
This is why a lot of what I did in my homebrew earlier was use Ki to improve action economy, not damage. It didn't dramatically improve DPR but it did mean that you could get more bang for your buck during your turns and reactions, so the DPR was offset by dramatic flexibility improvements with how many different things you could do on a turn.
I'm in full agreement about better Reaction options. People are probably tired about hearing my desire for Deflect Missiles to be changed to Deflect Attack. If Deflect Attack is available, then perhaps Patient Defense could give additional uses of Deflect Attack.
Instead of Ki-fueled Attack, I would rather just remove the condition "when you use the Attack Action" from the Bonus Action Unarmed Strike & Flurry of Blows. Then Bonus Action Unarmed Strike & Flurry of Blows can be used independent of the Action. This would allow main Action Dodge plus Bonus Action Attack. And would avoid extra wording on abilities like Elemental Monk's Environmental Burst (Before or after you take this action, you can make one Unarmed Strike as a Bonus Action.)
It actually solves a little more than damage scaling into higher levels. Part of the problem with lack of damage scaling on a martial character with the resources that the monk has is the resources goes from providing flexibility and choice, like it does as lower levels, to being needed to spend to simply contribute. By making it where the class can contribute the flexibility of the resource returns without making any of the options you are spending it on over powered.
The monk doesn't really have much of an issue before level 11 once the early level ki issue is solved. The monk is very strong from level 1-4. At 5 it is ok, but starts running into ki issues, this monk solves the ki issues by level 7.
I would not be opposed to the removal of "when you take the attack action" from the martial arts ability or Flurry of blows. I believe with that and the fighters third attack at level 11 in addition to Tasha's features and adding what they talked about at level 5 where they give something similar to the sorcerer's recovery on initiative roll for ki in addition to the metabolism at level 7 the monk would be a respectable class. It is already decent from level 1-10 it really just needs that bump at 11+.
(Damage comparisons from level 1-10 don't put the monk on top of the list, but they still put them in a good spot with good flexibility to go for more damage, stun, mobility or defense as needed. A class with that kind of flexibility I classify as good... .it does need out of combat stuff still though, which is why I would still love to see the level 9 feature just be rolled into unarmored movement at much lower levels).
still in denial I see
FoB is already what 90% of ki gets spent on, PD is occasionally used, and SotW almost never unless you are fleeing. Because having half your damage wrapped up in a single option means that option is just so far superior to all the others it is really hard to justify using anything else. If this was increased to 60% of your damage being locked behind FoB you can bet nobody would ever use any other of the BA options.
yup, a major issue is the opportunity cost and action economy of those three features. its not the only issue, but its one of the big ones.
While level 1-10 the Monk has respectable offence, the defense/survivability is the worst of all the martial characters. Lowest HP, middling AC, no healing, virtually no damage mitigation, expensive Disengage, and melee features mean the Monk is the most likely to be knocked out. Simply fixing the early Ki Point issues will not fix the survivability problem. Which is why I am a staunch supporter of changing Deflect Missiles to Deflect Attack.
I agree with you that the best out of combat improvement is moving the level 9 wall/water running to a lower level. Flavorful, unique, effective, and balanced.
What if, as part of spending that Ki/DP for PD or SotW you can make one unarmed strike, before or after PD/SotW? You wouldn’t lose as much damage (same damage as using your BA martial arts attack but at a Ki/DP cost). SotW could go back to either/or for that one point if getting both (per UA6) is too much.
I had also been thinking about stunning strike and what if instead of Stunned you do Dazed plus an additional Unarmed Strike die damage.
I had been thinking maybe a Hunter Ranger’s Colossus Slayer like ability would be good as its own feature to help with damage Tier 3 & 4. But what if it was tied to SS?
Probably not the best compromise but was just a thought.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Easy fixes to make the monk better:
Monks and martial artists are WISE in using their body movements. It's not always about Strength and Dexterity, although those help. They WISELY choose how to use their bodies (like a Jedi or Spiderman's Spidey Sense or fast movement as shown in the first Tobey Maguire movie).
All other martial classes get essentially 3 bonuses to their AC: Dexterity + Armor + Shield, or Heavy Armor + Shield. Even barbarians get Dexterity + Constitution + Shield. Monks should get the same benefit. Since they can't use a shield as the 3rd bonus to their AC, something else needs to be put in place. The Proficiency Bonus makes sense because of a martial artist's training. Constitution also makes sense because martial artists can control their bodies in crazy ways, breaking cinder blocks and boards with their bare fists, etc.
Again, martial artists are not soft and squishy. They can take a hit.
I like this approach. It emphasizes that they are NOT physical fighters but deeply into the mystical focus of their style.
Leave Dex based unarmed fighting to the Fighter and Bard subclasses for unarmed fighting (I’m specifically not saying Brawler, since I think that should be the name of a Barb based unarmed fighter). And obviously the Rogue, assuming they have some way to get access to Unarmed Fighting.
I’m also going to add one thing that isn’t on your list (and add it before the rest of your list)
1st weapon proficiencies are: Simple + 2 Martial Weapons (maybe limit the 2 martiala to light or finesse, but part of me says no: any 2 martial weapons; there are many examples that could fit pole arms, for example). These are your “Monk Weapons.”
And: Armor Proficiency: Shields (nothing else). I will explain in the next section.
I think this is a place to double down on SAD:
AC = 10 + WIS MOD + PB
Further, they can choose:
Bonus Action attack(s) OR Patient Defense OR wielding a shield
(there are examples of asian martial artists with a Dao sword and shield, but no armor; so add shield proficiency but no armor proficiencies, and pick (reskinned) scimitar as one of your 2 martial weapon picks)
So, basically, you can’t use Bonus Action Unarmed Strike nor FoB nor Light Weapon Bonus Action Attack if you wield a shield. Nor can you use your Bonus Action to Dodge. But otherwise you can do all of your other abilities while wielding a shield.
I’m slightly agnostic about this one. I’ve never had a Monk who was taken down to 0 hp .. not even while tanking. I know that seems a little extreme, but Monks depend on the group healer(s) just as much as the other Martials do. I can see this change going either way.
What about … give them a version of Sneak Attack (only usable unarmed or with your Monk Weapons) that has fewer dice, but has dice per attack instead of dice per round. Then give them Cunning Strikes like maneuvers (not the exact same list, just the ones that make sense for a Monk, and maybe one or two that a Rogue doesn’t get). Maybe it only works with your Attack Action attacks, not including Nick, and not your Bonus Action attacks (so, you only get these dice once or twice per turn).
This also helps to solve perceptions about Monk damage not keeping up. And also gives Monks some way to access special martial arts maneuvers for flavor.
One of those could be a parry action: once per turn you can sacrifice two of your dice to add one die roll to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Let’s say: starting at 4th level you get the dice. 1d6 per attack from 4th - 10th levels. 2 dice from 11th-15th levels. 3 dice for 16th level and above.
Warrior Of Weapons will get full Martial Weapon proficiency, and the ability to use these dice with their special weapons.
Warrior of Shadows will get the Thieve’s Stealth Attack.
What to call these dice? Disciplined Attack dice? (as opposed to sneak attack dice).