I guess. But a battlemasters abilities work the same
Battlemasters don't have any conditions anywhere near as good as stunned, and don't have anywhere near as many uses. I expect battlemaster dice to become 1/turn as well.
I guess. But a battlemasters abilities work the same
Battlemasters don't have any conditions anywhere near as good as stunned, and don't have anywhere near as many uses. I expect battlemaster dice to become 1/turn as well.
That would be a shame. What’s really the harm in using multiple maneuvers per turn? It’s not like they get that many of them that it’s sustainable.
I guess. But a battlemasters abilities work the same
Battlemasters don't have any conditions anywhere near as good as stunned, and don't have anywhere near as many uses. I expect battlemaster dice to become 1/turn as well.
Sure but it also increases their base damage which will likely be higher than the monks anyways and its not the one system for them. Monks need to use Ki to keep up with other classes, battlemaster its a bonus an already solid place to be. So until really high levels the uses wont be that different imo as monks kind of need to use one every round, the battlemaster does not. And while individually the abilities aren't as strong as stunning strike the versatility of maneuvers makes it just as useful imo. Like while disarming strike is only useful against a certain range of enemies, those it works on its effect is probably larger than stunning strike. And even ignoring the battlemaster there are legions of spells that do as much or more with either multiple targets to reduce to chance of a save or a secondary effect if the save succeeds. I was going to hit him for 1d8+4 damage anyways just isn't that big of a selling point.
Battlemasters have a much smaller pool to work from; they start with four, go up to five at level 7, and get one more for six at level 14. Slightly ahead of Ki pool initially, but falls behind fast. Plus there's quite a few that don't add to damage or are applied before the attack connects. Yes, for the umpteenth time, an optimized Fighter is going to do better DPR than an optimized Monk. That would be because pretty much the only thing a Fighter is able to do in combat is make regular attacks. Monks pretty much all have some extra ways to interact with the field, ergo they're going to take a hit to raw DPR to compensate.
Battlemasters have a much smaller pool to work from; they start with four, go up to five at level 7, and get one more for six at level 14. Slightly ahead of Ki pool initially, but falls behind fast. Plus there's quite a few that don't add to damage or are applied before the attack connects. Yes, for the umpteenth time, an optimized Fighter is going to do better DPR than an optimized Monk. That would be because pretty much the only thing a Fighter is able to do in combat is make regular attacks. Monks pretty much all have some extra ways to interact with the field, ergo they're going to take a hit to raw DPR to compensate.
So their pool isn't particularly smaller until 7th level where many games end around level 10 and unlike the monk its not the thing they kind of need to use every round to keep up. And making basic choices like choosing obvious feats and a sub class isn't some weird optimization technique. No one is talking about a 5 multi class dip where they get the DPR to over 9,000, but basic ordinary choices like hey I use a two handed sword lets take the feat around that, hey charger is cool lets take that. And without expending resources the fighter out paces the damage of the monk. And that is not the only thing the fighter will be doing better.
That's without considering class features, subclass features, etc. And saying you can take feats to optimize the Fighter but somehow can't for the Monk isn't an argument whatsoever. (For example, the Monk does great with Crusher because their extra hits give extra crit chance.)
Fighters do get two extra Ability Score Improvements though so their class basically has 2+ feats built into those class features as standard, so while Monks can certainly take feats as well, they're giving up ability score progression in order to do it. That's fine if you use rolled stats and roll really well, but not so good if you roll poorly or use standard array or point buy.
This is why I'm very much in favour of Monks gaining the same extra 10th-level feat that Rogues get; Monks arguably need it more since Rogues are only really dependent on Dexterity, compared a Monk's Dexterity/Wisdom/Constitution.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah; they could stand to get an ASI shot in the arm. That said, for the purposes of this exercise, the extra +1 mod doesn't massively move the needle in DPR, and the level 14 Fighter ASI is arguably counterbalanced by Disciplined Survivor; prof in all saving throws is a pretty fair match for a feat or ASI. Less flexible, certainly, but definitely weighty.
Yeah; they could stand to get an ASI shot in the arm. That said, for the purposes of this exercise, the extra +1 mod doesn't massively move the needle in DPR, and the level 14 Fighter ASI is arguably counterbalanced by Disciplined Survivor; prof in all saving throws is a pretty fair match for a feat or ASI. Less flexible, certainly, but definitely weighty.
While that is a good feature, Fighters do get Indomitable to help with a crucial save, meanwhile the Paladin gets to add their Charisma to all saving throws (including the ones they're proficient at) at 6th-level, and bestows that ability to all allies within 10 or 30 feet, so both Fighter and Monk are massively upstaged on saving throw defence.
For the monk feature specifically it arrives too late as well; I have a Monk/Cleric character I ended up taking Resilient (Wisdom) on just so I could boost those saves a lot sooner, because I doubt I'll actually get high enough level to gain Diamond Soul.
They should really just get Wisdom and maybe Charisma in tier 2, or even Constitution and Wisdom, then the rest later along with the re-roll. But it's still much weaker than the Paladin aura, but that probably should be nerfed.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah; they could stand to get an ASI shot in the arm. That said, for the purposes of this exercise, the extra +1 mod doesn't massively move the needle in DPR, and the level 14 Fighter ASI is arguably counterbalanced by Disciplined Survivor; prof in all saving throws is a pretty fair match for a feat or ASI. Less flexible, certainly, but definitely weighty.
While that is a good feature, Fighters do get Indomitable to help with a crucial save, meanwhile the Paladin gets to add their Charisma to all saving throws (including the ones they're proficient at) at 6th-level, and bestows that ability to all allies within 10 or 30 feet, so both Fighter and Monk are massively upstaged on saving throw defence.
For the monk feature specifically it arrives too late as well; I have a Monk/Cleric character I ended up taking Resilient (Wisdom) on just so I could boost those saves a lot sooner, because I doubt I'll actually get high enough level to gain Diamond Soul.
Indomitable is at most 3 times per long rest, with the third not coming online until 17. Yes, Paladin is better at it, but we're comparing Fighter and Monk. And I was only talking about Diamond Soul relative to the level 14 ASI of Fighters.
Indomitable is at most 3 times per long rest, with the third not coming online until 17. Yes, Paladin is better at it, but we're comparing Fighter and Monk. And I was only talking about Diamond Soul relative to the level 14 ASI of Fighters.
Sure, but it's worth mentioning, as it's arguably better and comes in way earlier. It's also a more direct comparison to feat gains IMO as 6th-level is a level most campaigns should get to, and it's when the Fighter gets their first bonus Ability Score Increase/feat; 14th-level by comparison is a level many campaigns will never reach, and by that point the Fighter is pretty much fully built already (it's their fifth Ability Score Increase/feat).
Plus the benefit of feats isn't simply the choice, it's the specialising, as you can double down on what you're best at. Diamond Soul is a nice feature, but it's general and situational, so its usefulness isn't up to you, it's up to the monsters you face. It's also not as strong as it seems for a few reasons:
By the time you get it, Purity of Body at 10th-level has already made you immune to poison, so that covers a lot of (if not most of) the Constitution saving throws you're likely to make.
Likewise Stillness of Mind at 7th-level, depending upon how your DM lets you use it, helps against a lot of Wisdom saving throw effects (doesn't prevent them landing, but means you can potentially shake them off).
Charisma and Intelligence saving throws are pretty uncommon among monsters.
This means that altogether the four extra saving throw proficiencies aren't quite as valuable as they might be to other characters.
Again, not saying it's not a nice feature to have, but the really beneficial part is the ability to re-roll for a Ki point, as it's not the "four free Resilient feats" it can seem at first glance. And it points to one of Monk's somewhat less obvious problems, which is that we get several features that do very similar things, don't really stack properly (they compete as much as they complement); this is part of why I raised the Paladin Aura, because it's a single feature that outperforms all three Monk "saving throw" features (Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body and Diamond Soul) at an earlier level than all three, and at the end of the day even with Evasion the Monk still isn't all that defensively strong without Patient Defence, whereas Fighters and Paladins get the bulk of their defence in tiers 1 and 2, everything after that is a bonus.
With all this in mind I'd rather see Stillness of Mind and Purity of Body (or Self-Restoration in the playtest) be replaced with getting Diamond Soul/Disciplined Survivor sooner, because there's not as much benefit to having both, and Monk doesn't need redundant features that basically do the same things. Maybe give Constitution and Wisdom saving throw proficiency at 9th-level (since Acrobatic Movement is also situational), and leave Intelligence/Charisma and the re-roll at 14th?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Battlemasters have a much smaller pool to work from; they start with four, go up to five at level 7, and get one more for six at level 14. Slightly ahead of Ki pool initially, but falls behind fast. Plus there's quite a few that don't add to damage or are applied before the attack connects. Yes, for the umpteenth time, an optimized Fighter is going to do better DPR than an optimized Monk. That would be because pretty much the only thing a Fighter is able to do in combat is make regular attacks. Monks pretty much all have some extra ways to interact with the field, ergo they're going to take a hit to raw DPR to compensate.
So their pool isn't particularly smaller until 7th level where many games end around level 10 and unlike the monk its not the thing they kind of need to use every round to keep up. And making basic choices like choosing obvious feats and a sub class isn't some weird optimization technique. No one is talking about a 5 multi class dip where they get the DPR to over 9,000, but basic ordinary choices like hey I use a two handed sword lets take the feat around that, hey charger is cool lets take that. And without expending resources the fighter out paces the damage of the monk. And that is not the only thing the fighter will be doing better.
So, let's take two Level 7's, Fighter and Monk, 18's in their damage stat, no specialized build. Fighter we'll say has a d12 weapon (two-handed weapon), Monk has a d8 quarterstaff + d6 unarmed.
Fighter's two attacks: 1d12+4 + 1d12+4 = 2d12+8 = 10-32 damage per turn
Monk's two quarterstaff attacks + one unarmed strike: 1d8+4 + 1d8+4 + 1d6+4 = 2d8+1d6+12 = 15-34 damage per turn
That's without considering class features, subclass features, etc. And saying you can take feats to optimize the Fighter but somehow can't for the Monk isn't an argument whatsoever. (For example, the Monk does great with Crusher because their extra hits give extra crit chance.)
Except most feats don't work as well for monks due to the prerequisites or stats used, a couple like crusher might if it exists in one though I'd exepct that to get a martial weapon proficiency requirement as well given how every other combat feat was built. But given the leveled feat overall I am not sure what will transfer over in their backwards compatibility system.They need to do something like say their unarmed attacks are considered martial weapons that they are proficient with or at least give them one martial weapon that they are. Allow their dex to work with grapple/shoves so feats like tavern brawler or grappler work well with them. When their martial die becomes d10 let their attacks be considered heavy weapons. This way they can capitalize on the combat feats that are meant for the warriors but currently hedge them out. Add a feat to work with their unarmored style, there is medium armor master, heavy armor master(probably should be light as well for the rogues out there) but add a unarmored master with a prerequisite of some kind of unarmed defense feature.
This is what makes it a false argument. The fighter is designed to work with feats and work with their masteries to increase their damage more than the base 1d12+4 would indicate. Due to the weapons they have access to both the mastery system and feat system does less for the monk and yet its the thing that allows the other warriors to bring the damage.
That's without considering class features, subclass features, etc. And saying you can take feats to optimize the Fighter but somehow can't for the Monk isn't an argument whatsoever. (For example, the Monk does great with Crusher because their extra hits give extra crit chance.)
Crusher boosts strength or constitution, neither stats that benefit Monk's main combat stats. Also, where are you taking it?
At level 8 Monk has had two ASIs, the Fighter has had three. The Fighter will have its main combat stat at 20, and will have space for a feat like Crusher. Indeed, if it takes two half feats that boost strength it could have 20 strength and two feats.
The Monk can have its main combat stat at 20, or it can have a main combat stat of 18 and Crusher, but it cannot have both. Since Crusher is a half feat it would be considered a Level 4+ feat, so cannot be taken as a level 1 starting feat. If you look at the Expert Classes UA you'll see that some of the Warrior feats, like Charger, which could actually be pretty good for Monk, require proficiency in a Martial Weapon, which Monks do not have.
This UA gave us the Rogue, which sets the standard in how to tweak an existing class in order to tidy up the loose edges, making it better while keeping its flavor, and Monk, which was weakened at practically every level. The only thing it gained, realistically, was an improved Martial Arts dice, which was of minor benefit given that previously most people would use a quarterstaff or spear two-handed in order to get a d8 dice up until the MA dice exceeded the d8. Its main party trick, Stunning Strike, has been reduced to a once per turn roll of the dice. Sure, you're not going to burn through your ki as fast, but the effect isn't going to be landing often either.
For some reason, instead of trying to fix the Monk, you keep accusing anyone who tries to do so of being "optimizers" as if that is some sort of dirty word. That's not an argument. D&D might be a role playing game, but when it comes to every interaction, social, exploration, combat, it's a game of math. When playing I don't go out of my way to squeeze every last ounce of power out of a build, my favorite first level dip for my Warlock is level 1 Rogue for expertise in persuasion and deception, but I don't deliberately gimp myself either.
When your entire argument is that a class is completely nonviable and terrible because one number is one less than one number from another class (never mind all the numbers that are higher), then you don't care about actual gameplay beyond hypothetical damage number-crunching in a featureless void.
And then you flip out at the audacity of people who play the game like your average player instead of a power-gamer having no problem with the class and all of the features and advantages it possesses.
A minimum level I hold for dialogue with people is honest argumentation.
You have failed that minimum.
None of my arguments, anywhere, have stated that Monk is "completely nonviable and terrible". I have stated that it is balanced, but weak compared to other classes that do similar things. It has, as others have said, a high baseline but a low maximum.
The people you claim are "average players" would have no issues with the Monk whether it was the same, better, or worse than it is now. Likewise they would have no issue with the College of Dance Bard, despite it doing much of what Monks do, but being significantly more powerful. Therefore there is no point in including them in the discussion.
It is the people who can push classes to their limits that will try to achieve some level of balance between the classes, not average players.
By the time you get it, Purity of Body at 10th-level has already made you immune to poison, so that covers a lot of (if not most of) all Constitution saving throws you're likely to make.
Except no. Constitution saving throws are the most common even without considering concentration saves since they are linked to: 1. poison damage, poisoned effects 2. necrotic damage, max hp reduction 3. cold damage 4. stun (plus some paralysis effects) 5. blindness 6. radiant damage
By the time you get it, Purity of Body at 10th-level has already made you immune to poison, so that covers a lot of (if not most of) all Constitution saving throws you're likely to make.
Except no. Constitution saving throws are the most common even without considering concentration saves since they are linked to: 1. poison damage, poisoned effects 2. necrotic damage, max hp reduction 3. cold damage 4. stun (plus some paralysis effects) 5. blindness 6. radiant damage
I didn't say Constitution saving throws aren't useful? Maybe my use of the word "all" was confusing but I thought my point was pretty clear? And they're certainly not the most common; Dexterity and Wisdom saving throws are the most common saving throws triggered by an enemy, Constitution is only an exception if you're a caster concentrating on a spell, but that's your doing not the monster's.
Of that list poison damage/poisoned are by far the most common, and you're already immune by the time you get Diamond Soul (if you get it at all), as I stated. And I literally proposed ditching Purity of Body and Stillness of Mind for earlier Constitution/Wisdom saving throw proficiency because my main criticisms of Diamond Soul are that it comes far too late, and applies over redundant features.
An alternative is for the Monk to have Dexterity and Wisdom saving throw proficiency to begin with; if we're going to be dependent on those two ability scores we might as well lean into it, that way they could just swap Purity of Body for Strength/Constitution proficiency and Stillness of Mind for Intelligence/Charisma proficiency with the saving throw re-roll.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
One of the main issues with the monk is the combo of low hp + low AC. And it can only increase the AC according to the CR investing all the feat points for increase the ability scores.
That's why the monk class proficiency bonus should be used to add it to the AC by its own, then adding other options like giving Fighting Style and allowing to get Defensive for unarmored armor, and inserting its unarmed attack into the Martial Weapon category so could get the corresponding feats.
That's without considering class features, subclass features, etc. And saying you can take feats to optimize the Fighter but somehow can't for the Monk isn't an argument whatsoever. (For example, the Monk does great with Crusher because their extra hits give extra crit chance.)
Crusher boosts strength or constitution, neither stats that benefit Monk's main combat stats. Also, where are you taking it?
At level 8 Monk has had two ASIs, the Fighter has had three. The Fighter will have its main combat stat at 20, and will have space for a feat like Crusher. Indeed, if it takes two half feats that boost strength it could have 20 strength and two feats.
The Monk can have its main combat stat at 20, or it can have a main combat stat of 18 and Crusher, but it cannot have both. Since Crusher is a half feat it would be considered a Level 4+ feat, so cannot be taken as a level 1 starting feat. If you look at the Expert Classes UA you'll see that some of the Warrior feats, like Charger, which could actually be pretty good for Monk, require proficiency in a Martial Weapon, which Monks do not have.
This UA gave us the Rogue, which sets the standard in how to tweak an existing class in order to tidy up the loose edges, making it better while keeping its flavor, and Monk, which was weakened at practically every level. The only thing it gained, realistically, was an improved Martial Arts dice, which was of minor benefit given that previously most people would use a quarterstaff or spear two-handed in order to get a d8 dice up until the MA dice exceeded the d8. Its main party trick, Stunning Strike, has been reduced to a once per turn roll of the dice. Sure, you're not going to burn through your ki as fast, but the effect isn't going to be landing often either.
For some reason, instead of trying to fix the Monk, you keep accusing anyone who tries to do so of being "optimizers" as if that is some sort of dirty word. That's not an argument. D&D might be a role playing game, but when it comes to every interaction, social, exploration, combat, it's a game of math. When playing I don't go out of my way to squeeze every last ounce of power out of a build, my favorite first level dip for my Warlock is level 1 Rogue for expertise in persuasion and deception, but I don't deliberately gimp myself either.
I agree with most of this, but the big and its really big imo boost monks got was their 7th level fast metabolism thing. I personally think as is it should swap with slow fall at 4th level, if its not a short rest but just a ki point refresh drop it to level 2.
The monk class just has a bunch of little things off but those little things add up. No martial weapon with almost all martial feats requiring that proficiency so they have a feat tax to jump into useful combat feats. The weapon style feats that boost damage don't work with martial arts. They unarmed blows either need to count as one light/heavy etc or they need a new unarmed feat for people who have dice of damage with unarmed strikes. Basic unarmed combat functionality of shoves(includes trips) and grapples are ties to strength which they have no reason for. They nerfed stunning strike 2 ways because I guess at high levels someone might spam it and get it to finally work and apparently the monk should not benefit much on their attacks from stunning people. Which is fine but the nerf was without any compensation like changing its save to wisdom. Too many of their core features require a bonus action and or ki.
Not huge but they are MAD and it effects them harder than other MAD classes as more of the core functionality is tied to it.
That's without considering class features, subclass features, etc. And saying you can take feats to optimize the Fighter but somehow can't for the Monk isn't an argument whatsoever. (For example, the Monk does great with Crusher because their extra hits give extra crit chance.)
Crusher boosts strength or constitution, neither stats that benefit Monk's main combat stats. Also, where are you taking it?
At level 8 Monk has had two ASIs, the Fighter has had three. The Fighter will have its main combat stat at 20, and will have space for a feat like Crusher. Indeed, if it takes two half feats that boost strength it could have 20 strength and two feats.
The Monk can have its main combat stat at 20, or it can have a main combat stat of 18 and Crusher, but it cannot have both. Since Crusher is a half feat it would be considered a Level 4+ feat, so cannot be taken as a level 1 starting feat. If you look at the Expert Classes UA you'll see that some of the Warrior feats, like Charger, which could actually be pretty good for Monk, require proficiency in a Martial Weapon, which Monks do not have.
This UA gave us the Rogue, which sets the standard in how to tweak an existing class in order to tidy up the loose edges, making it better while keeping its flavor, and Monk, which was weakened at practically every level. The only thing it gained, realistically, was an improved Martial Arts dice, which was of minor benefit given that previously most people would use a quarterstaff or spear two-handed in order to get a d8 dice up until the MA dice exceeded the d8. Its main party trick, Stunning Strike, has been reduced to a once per turn roll of the dice. Sure, you're not going to burn through your ki as fast, but the effect isn't going to be landing often either.
For some reason, instead of trying to fix the Monk, you keep accusing anyone who tries to do so of being "optimizers" as if that is some sort of dirty word. That's not an argument. D&D might be a role playing game, but when it comes to every interaction, social, exploration, combat, it's a game of math. When playing I don't go out of my way to squeeze every last ounce of power out of a build, my favorite first level dip for my Warlock is level 1 Rogue for expertise in persuasion and deception, but I don't deliberately gimp myself either.
I agree with most of this, but the big and its really big imo boost monks got was their 7th level fast metabolism thing. I personally think as is it should swap with slow fall at 4th level, if its not a short rest but just a ki point refresh drop it to level 2.
The monk class just has a bunch of little things off but those little things add up. No martial weapon with almost all martial feats requiring that proficiency so they have a feat tax to jump into useful combat feats. The weapon style feats that boost damage don't work with martial arts. They unarmed blows either need to count as one light/heavy etc or they need a new unarmed feat for people who have dice of damage with unarmed strikes. Basic unarmed combat functionality of shoves(includes trips) and grapples are ties to strength which they have no reason for. They nerfed stunning strike 2 ways because I guess at high levels someone might spam it and get it to finally work and apparently the monk should not benefit much on their attacks from stunning people. Which is fine but the nerf was without any compensation like changing its save to wisdom. Too many of their core features require a bonus action and or ki.
Not huge but they are MAD and it effects them harder than other MAD classes as more of the core functionality is tied to it.
But that's not really a boost if you were actually short resting previously.
What we have so far: same issues with being MAD, same issues with low DPS and survivability, same issues with lack of ki points early on, a new problem introduced where you need to lower your DPS if you want to use weapon mastery, new problems where you are locked out of feats because you no longer meet the prerequisites, a reduction in survivability when they removed poison and disease immunity, a reduction in the power of their stunning strikes. Overall they took the weakest base class and made it weaker because they don't seem to understand the primary problems the monk has (no gear support, no feat support, low survivability, low DPS given that low survivability, low utility).
Uh, there’s plenty of gear a Monk can use, unless you’re only talking about armor. The dpr issue is also really overhyped for anyone but a min-maxer, and the weapon mastery bit in particular is not nearly so dire as you make out. Keep in mind each tier of die only represent a single point of damage difference on average; throughout tiers 1 and 2 you’re talking a difference of maybe 1 point across the available weapons compared to d6 or d8 unarmed. Poison and disease immunity got removed specifically because the wording was ambiguous as to what it actually applied to, so how useful that was in the first place is up in the air. Also Fast Metabolism is only useless if your group literally rests between every combat encounter, which isn’t really how the game is meant to be run. Most of the complaints I see for the class are either the product of someone mishandling it or of people inflating marginal differences in stats as though they’re insurmountable obstacles.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Battlemasters don't have any conditions anywhere near as good as stunned, and don't have anywhere near as many uses. I expect battlemaster dice to become 1/turn as well.
That would be a shame. What’s really the harm in using multiple maneuvers per turn? It’s not like they get that many of them that it’s sustainable.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Sure but it also increases their base damage which will likely be higher than the monks anyways and its not the one system for them. Monks need to use Ki to keep up with other classes, battlemaster its a bonus an already solid place to be. So until really high levels the uses wont be that different imo as monks kind of need to use one every round, the battlemaster does not. And while individually the abilities aren't as strong as stunning strike the versatility of maneuvers makes it just as useful imo. Like while disarming strike is only useful against a certain range of enemies, those it works on its effect is probably larger than stunning strike. And even ignoring the battlemaster there are legions of spells that do as much or more with either multiple targets to reduce to chance of a save or a secondary effect if the save succeeds. I was going to hit him for 1d8+4 damage anyways just isn't that big of a selling point.
Battlemasters have a much smaller pool to work from; they start with four, go up to five at level 7, and get one more for six at level 14. Slightly ahead of Ki pool initially, but falls behind fast. Plus there's quite a few that don't add to damage or are applied before the attack connects. Yes, for the umpteenth time, an optimized Fighter is going to do better DPR than an optimized Monk. That would be because pretty much the only thing a Fighter is able to do in combat is make regular attacks. Monks pretty much all have some extra ways to interact with the field, ergo they're going to take a hit to raw DPR to compensate.
So their pool isn't particularly smaller until 7th level where many games end around level 10 and unlike the monk its not the thing they kind of need to use every round to keep up. And making basic choices like choosing obvious feats and a sub class isn't some weird optimization technique. No one is talking about a 5 multi class dip where they get the DPR to over 9,000, but basic ordinary choices like hey I use a two handed sword lets take the feat around that, hey charger is cool lets take that. And without expending resources the fighter out paces the damage of the monk. And that is not the only thing the fighter will be doing better.
Fighters do get two extra Ability Score Improvements though so their class basically has 2+ feats built into those class features as standard, so while Monks can certainly take feats as well, they're giving up ability score progression in order to do it. That's fine if you use rolled stats and roll really well, but not so good if you roll poorly or use standard array or point buy.
This is why I'm very much in favour of Monks gaining the same extra 10th-level feat that Rogues get; Monks arguably need it more since Rogues are only really dependent on Dexterity, compared a Monk's Dexterity/Wisdom/Constitution.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Yeah; they could stand to get an ASI shot in the arm. That said, for the purposes of this exercise, the extra +1 mod doesn't massively move the needle in DPR, and the level 14 Fighter ASI is arguably counterbalanced by Disciplined Survivor; prof in all saving throws is a pretty fair match for a feat or ASI. Less flexible, certainly, but definitely weighty.
While that is a good feature, Fighters do get Indomitable to help with a crucial save, meanwhile the Paladin gets to add their Charisma to all saving throws (including the ones they're proficient at) at 6th-level, and bestows that ability to all allies within 10 or 30 feet, so both Fighter and Monk are massively upstaged on saving throw defence.
For the monk feature specifically it arrives too late as well; I have a Monk/Cleric character I ended up taking Resilient (Wisdom) on just so I could boost those saves a lot sooner, because I doubt I'll actually get high enough level to gain Diamond Soul.
They should really just get Wisdom and maybe Charisma in tier 2, or even Constitution and Wisdom, then the rest later along with the re-roll. But it's still much weaker than the Paladin aura, but that probably should be nerfed.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Indomitable is at most 3 times per long rest, with the third not coming online until 17. Yes, Paladin is better at it, but we're comparing Fighter and Monk. And I was only talking about Diamond Soul relative to the level 14 ASI of Fighters.
Sure, but it's worth mentioning, as it's arguably better and comes in way earlier. It's also a more direct comparison to feat gains IMO as 6th-level is a level most campaigns should get to, and it's when the Fighter gets their first bonus Ability Score Increase/feat; 14th-level by comparison is a level many campaigns will never reach, and by that point the Fighter is pretty much fully built already (it's their fifth Ability Score Increase/feat).
Plus the benefit of feats isn't simply the choice, it's the specialising, as you can double down on what you're best at. Diamond Soul is a nice feature, but it's general and situational, so its usefulness isn't up to you, it's up to the monsters you face. It's also not as strong as it seems for a few reasons:
This means that altogether the four extra saving throw proficiencies aren't quite as valuable as they might be to other characters.
Again, not saying it's not a nice feature to have, but the really beneficial part is the ability to re-roll for a Ki point, as it's not the "four free Resilient feats" it can seem at first glance. And it points to one of Monk's somewhat less obvious problems, which is that we get several features that do very similar things, don't really stack properly (they compete as much as they complement); this is part of why I raised the Paladin Aura, because it's a single feature that outperforms all three Monk "saving throw" features (Stillness of Mind, Purity of Body and Diamond Soul) at an earlier level than all three, and at the end of the day even with Evasion the Monk still isn't all that defensively strong without Patient Defence, whereas Fighters and Paladins get the bulk of their defence in tiers 1 and 2, everything after that is a bonus.
With all this in mind I'd rather see Stillness of Mind and Purity of Body (or Self-Restoration in the playtest) be replaced with getting Diamond Soul/Disciplined Survivor sooner, because there's not as much benefit to having both, and Monk doesn't need redundant features that basically do the same things. Maybe give Constitution and Wisdom saving throw proficiency at 9th-level (since Acrobatic Movement is also situational), and leave Intelligence/Charisma and the re-roll at 14th?
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Except most feats don't work as well for monks due to the prerequisites or stats used, a couple like crusher might if it exists in one though I'd exepct that to get a martial weapon proficiency requirement as well given how every other combat feat was built. But given the leveled feat overall I am not sure what will transfer over in their backwards compatibility system.They need to do something like say their unarmed attacks are considered martial weapons that they are proficient with or at least give them one martial weapon that they are. Allow their dex to work with grapple/shoves so feats like tavern brawler or grappler work well with them. When their martial die becomes d10 let their attacks be considered heavy weapons. This way they can capitalize on the combat feats that are meant for the warriors but currently hedge them out. Add a feat to work with their unarmored style, there is medium armor master, heavy armor master(probably should be light as well for the rogues out there) but add a unarmored master with a prerequisite of some kind of unarmed defense feature.
This is what makes it a false argument. The fighter is designed to work with feats and work with their masteries to increase their damage more than the base 1d12+4 would indicate. Due to the weapons they have access to both the mastery system and feat system does less for the monk and yet its the thing that allows the other warriors to bring the damage.
Crusher boosts strength or constitution, neither stats that benefit Monk's main combat stats. Also, where are you taking it?
At level 8 Monk has had two ASIs, the Fighter has had three. The Fighter will have its main combat stat at 20, and will have space for a feat like Crusher. Indeed, if it takes two half feats that boost strength it could have 20 strength and two feats.
The Monk can have its main combat stat at 20, or it can have a main combat stat of 18 and Crusher, but it cannot have both. Since Crusher is a half feat it would be considered a Level 4+ feat, so cannot be taken as a level 1 starting feat. If you look at the Expert Classes UA you'll see that some of the Warrior feats, like Charger, which could actually be pretty good for Monk, require proficiency in a Martial Weapon, which Monks do not have.
This UA gave us the Rogue, which sets the standard in how to tweak an existing class in order to tidy up the loose edges, making it better while keeping its flavor, and Monk, which was weakened at practically every level. The only thing it gained, realistically, was an improved Martial Arts dice, which was of minor benefit given that previously most people would use a quarterstaff or spear two-handed in order to get a d8 dice up until the MA dice exceeded the d8. Its main party trick, Stunning Strike, has been reduced to a once per turn roll of the dice. Sure, you're not going to burn through your ki as fast, but the effect isn't going to be landing often either.
For some reason, instead of trying to fix the Monk, you keep accusing anyone who tries to do so of being "optimizers" as if that is some sort of dirty word. That's not an argument. D&D might be a role playing game, but when it comes to every interaction, social, exploration, combat, it's a game of math. When playing I don't go out of my way to squeeze every last ounce of power out of a build, my favorite first level dip for my Warlock is level 1 Rogue for expertise in persuasion and deception, but I don't deliberately gimp myself either.
A minimum level I hold for dialogue with people is honest argumentation.
You have failed that minimum.
None of my arguments, anywhere, have stated that Monk is "completely nonviable and terrible". I have stated that it is balanced, but weak compared to other classes that do similar things. It has, as others have said, a high baseline but a low maximum.
The people you claim are "average players" would have no issues with the Monk whether it was the same, better, or worse than it is now. Likewise they would have no issue with the College of Dance Bard, despite it doing much of what Monks do, but being significantly more powerful. Therefore there is no point in including them in the discussion.
It is the people who can push classes to their limits that will try to achieve some level of balance between the classes, not average players.
Except no. Constitution saving throws are the most common even without considering concentration saves since they are linked to:
1. poison damage, poisoned effects
2. necrotic damage, max hp reduction
3. cold damage
4. stun (plus some paralysis effects)
5. blindness
6. radiant damage
I didn't say Constitution saving throws aren't useful? Maybe my use of the word "all" was confusing but I thought my point was pretty clear? And they're certainly not the most common; Dexterity and Wisdom saving throws are the most common saving throws triggered by an enemy, Constitution is only an exception if you're a caster concentrating on a spell, but that's your doing not the monster's.
Of that list poison damage/poisoned are by far the most common, and you're already immune by the time you get Diamond Soul (if you get it at all), as I stated. And I literally proposed ditching Purity of Body and Stillness of Mind for earlier Constitution/Wisdom saving throw proficiency because my main criticisms of Diamond Soul are that it comes far too late, and applies over redundant features.
An alternative is for the Monk to have Dexterity and Wisdom saving throw proficiency to begin with; if we're going to be dependent on those two ability scores we might as well lean into it, that way they could just swap Purity of Body for Strength/Constitution proficiency and Stillness of Mind for Intelligence/Charisma proficiency with the saving throw re-roll.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
One of the main issues with the monk is the combo of low hp + low AC. And it can only increase the AC according to the CR investing all the feat points for increase the ability scores.
That's why the monk class proficiency bonus should be used to add it to the AC by its own, then adding other options like giving Fighting Style and allowing to get Defensive for unarmored armor, and inserting its unarmed attack into the Martial Weapon category so could get the corresponding feats.
I agree with most of this, but the big and its really big imo boost monks got was their 7th level fast metabolism thing. I personally think as is it should swap with slow fall at 4th level, if its not a short rest but just a ki point refresh drop it to level 2.
The monk class just has a bunch of little things off but those little things add up. No martial weapon with almost all martial feats requiring that proficiency so they have a feat tax to jump into useful combat feats. The weapon style feats that boost damage don't work with martial arts. They unarmed blows either need to count as one light/heavy etc or they need a new unarmed feat for people who have dice of damage with unarmed strikes. Basic unarmed combat functionality of shoves(includes trips) and grapples are ties to strength which they have no reason for. They nerfed stunning strike 2 ways because I guess at high levels someone might spam it and get it to finally work and apparently the monk should not benefit much on their attacks from stunning people. Which is fine but the nerf was without any compensation like changing its save to wisdom. Too many of their core features require a bonus action and or ki.
Not huge but they are MAD and it effects them harder than other MAD classes as more of the core functionality is tied to it.
I gave my suggestion for an overhaul of the OneD&D Monk over in the "Pugilistic Propositions" thread.
But that's not really a boost if you were actually short resting previously.
What we have so far: same issues with being MAD, same issues with low DPS and survivability, same issues with lack of ki points early on, a new problem introduced where you need to lower your DPS if you want to use weapon mastery, new problems where you are locked out of feats because you no longer meet the prerequisites, a reduction in survivability when they removed poison and disease immunity, a reduction in the power of their stunning strikes. Overall they took the weakest base class and made it weaker because they don't seem to understand the primary problems the monk has (no gear support, no feat support, low survivability, low DPS given that low survivability, low utility).
Uh, there’s plenty of gear a Monk can use, unless you’re only talking about armor. The dpr issue is also really overhyped for anyone but a min-maxer, and the weapon mastery bit in particular is not nearly so dire as you make out. Keep in mind each tier of die only represent a single point of damage difference on average; throughout tiers 1 and 2 you’re talking a difference of maybe 1 point across the available weapons compared to d6 or d8 unarmed. Poison and disease immunity got removed specifically because the wording was ambiguous as to what it actually applied to, so how useful that was in the first place is up in the air. Also Fast Metabolism is only useless if your group literally rests between every combat encounter, which isn’t really how the game is meant to be run. Most of the complaints I see for the class are either the product of someone mishandling it or of people inflating marginal differences in stats as though they’re insurmountable obstacles.