Hey all I didn't see much talk about the rogue changes so I thought I'd start.

I think the cunning strikes are an amazing addition to the Rogue fantasy and adding new options for each subclass is a really exciting tie in that improves the class as a whole massively. Returning to the old level progression is also a good change because it removes the delay on evasion which just felt so punishing. I'm super excited about all the subclasses and the new features that have been added, though I think the core problem with assassin being meh remains, all of the new cunning strikes and functionality for each subclass just all feels very rogue to me.

Anyone have any strong opinions about the changes?

Rogues are good in this update. Arcane Trickster is the best subclass, as it always was, and improved by allowing them to take any school of magic after the level 3 choices, but the basic Rogue chassis is good.

Bard eats its lunch though, but then this iteration of Bard is probably the best class in the game.

Rogue has been my favorite 5e class and I have to say that I am extremely excited to play the new version if it makes it to print. Cunning Strikes makes the Rogue the Battle Master of the Expert group and I am here for it. 

Rogue is pretty much perfect. My only remaining concern is that they have no way to dual-wield and get their stat to offhand damage except for Crossbow Expert or Soulknife. Everything else has been addressed, including Thief and Assassin.

I would definitely prefer that they get the standardized subclass progression, but if WotC really feels that wouldn't make it possible for them to fit in Cunning Strike then I'll keep the latter.

I love the new Rogue, the damage cost for some of those abilities probably need to be tweaked but as a core feature / concept I love it.

Assassin should be the highest physical damage dealer (in terms of one strike) in the game. Having assassinate be 1 point per level is crazy weak.

Giving it 2d6 poison at lvl 13 IF DM fails the save after having it already take away 1d6 to ATTEMPT to poison an enemy when poison damage is the damage the majority of decent power monsters have immunity from is just stupid. 

Its also crazy that in order to get the 2 weapon fighting style I have to multi-class at least 2 levels into another class to get the 5 extra modifier damage using a d4 weapon. No reason to run assassin over any other rogue class. The Gloom Stalker Ranger is a better assassin than the Assassin Rogue. And with these changes all rogues will just use a Rapier to get auto advantage on every strike after the first hit. 

The lvl 17 ability needs a con save of 19 max which isn't hard to beat for pretty much any boss you would be fighting at level 17. 

I like that they tried to give the rogues new flavor. Its just a damn shame the rogues new flavor tastes like a low damage pseudo support class. 

I'm not a fan of the second subclass feature getting pushed back to 9th level.

Cunning strikes are fantastic, I think everyone agrees on that. Just one or two more options in the core feature and it will be absolutely perfect. If they kept standartized subclass progression, I would be fine with it going into print.

Honestly, I really like this Rogue. Weapon Mastery and Cunning Strike are both powerful and interesting improvements to the class. The concept of a sneaky dude with a knife has always appealed to me to be honest, but this Rogue looks a lot cooler than the 2014 one.

The biggest improvement I noticed was to the Assassin. It’s always been a poorly designed set of mechanics for cool archetype, but Assassinate and Death Strike are now a lot more powerful (and apply to more situations now. The other subclass features at levels 9 and 13 have been improved too.

All of this - combined with the fact that the Swashbuckler can do a lot of epic stuff too - leads me to believe that this Rogue is hopefully here to stay.

I like it.  I personally would like the weapons used with sneak attack to just change somehow so it feels like rogues have more options. Like maybe change it to attacks that do 1d6 or less. A club would be like a sap, unarmed take downs are very cinematic, if its a viking rogue let them use hand axes etc. Don't overly focus on dex style weapons when the balance is fine with just changing the damage. As is I think it overly narrows things down as there is a best dex melee weapon and best ranged weapon with feats a best if you don't have feats etc. So then people only use 2-3 weapons.

1d6 might have a different set of flaws, like never use daggers as hand axes are better. Honestly I'd be fine if they dropped all weapon restrictions, if you want to multi class or take a feat to get martial weapons and sneak attack with a maul have at it.  People would likely still use finesse weapons for the most part so they can focus on one stat but it would open options for more weapons.  Maybe give them the ability to finesse any one handed weapon and unarmed strikes, give them something similar to the old monk weapons where all weapons/unarmed strikes they are proficient with do a minimum of 1d6 and can use dex. I don't know. As I said right now it feels like they have a list but they are mostly false choices as there are just best options.

I don't like the cunning strike. Especially the poison. 

Poisons are something I purchase/craft and use on my blades, NOT a "give up a sneak attack die" thing. 

Now it either nerfs my ability to use sneak attack AND poison, or gets rid of the use of poisons and neither makes me happy.

Withdraw is pretty damned close to some of the features of my favorite subclass, Swashbuckler, and the dance bard infringes on the 'bucker as well, with the only real differences being that swashbucker's evasion skills aren't shared with party members, and Initiative is dex plus charisma instead of AC (which the bard's AC is a much better boost, and so are the shared evasions. The only drawback is that it has to use unarmed strikes.  Now of course bards and rogues have different CLASS (not subclass) features, but the subclasses themselves are way too damned similar for comfort). 

The bard/rogue has always been bad (Rogues get about half the expertise, and no innate spellcasting all for the sake of the sneak attack die, which, isn't the worst, but damn it, the bard needs some nerfing or at least to stop stealing the rogue's cool).


Oh yeah, the panache for swashbuckler is a straight up nerf of the subclass,  as are the dashing strikes. 

In fact using sneak attack dice as spell slots (which basically it's doing) just kills the class. Especially since you really don't get much in the way of extra attacks, you's still squishy as hell, and your "evasion" is a farce compared to the damned bard and monk and most other classes.

Also, What the hell is "vex" mastery going to do if you only have one attack action your turn.... Like the rogue does... You know, the class that uses the finesse weapons the most....

._.

They did not think this out at all...

Eh, given that you need the poisoner's kit on your person to use the poison option I'm fine with that as an explanation. You can always poison your weapons normally and not give up any sneak attack if you want. 

I don't know that I love every class that could ever reasonably be expected to profit from Weapon Mastery getting it by default, to be honest. I think Rogue has enough going for it without Weapon Mastery.

It may be controversial, but the bit I'm least enthused by is 'Steady Aim'. It blatantly favours making Rogues as ranged weapon attackers, for one thing, but moreover I think it comes online very early and basically damns the Rogue to give up their movement and their bonus action more-often-than-not, because getting advantage for Sneak Attacks is kind of a no-brainer. A higher level feature stipulating that the Rogue has advantage on any attack on which they don't have disadvantage instead, maybe?

Quote from 50WordsForSnow >>

I don't know that I love every class that could ever reasonably be expected to profit from Weapon Mastery getting it by default, to be honest. I think Rogue has enough going for it without Weapon Mastery.

It may be controversial, but the bit I'm least enthused by is 'Steady Aim'. It blatantly favours making Rogues as ranged weapon attackers, for one thing, but moreover I think it comes online very early and basically damns the Rogue to give up their movement and their bonus action more-often-than-not, because getting advantage for Sneak Attacks is kind of a no-brainer. A higher level feature stipulating that the Rogue has advantage on any attack on which they don't have disadvantage instead, maybe?

I kind of agree on both points. I want weapon mastery pretty much just for warrior classes. And I feel steady aim is counter to the entire point of cunning action. I'd want to see something in their places though. 

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

Quote from 50WordsForSnow >>

I don't know that I love every class that could ever reasonably be expected to profit from Weapon Mastery getting it by default, to be honest. I think Rogue has enough going for it without Weapon Mastery.

It may be controversial, but the bit I'm least enthused by is 'Steady Aim'. It blatantly favours making Rogues as ranged weapon attackers, for one thing, but moreover I think it comes online very early and basically damns the Rogue to give up their movement and their bonus action more-often-than-not, because getting advantage for Sneak Attacks is kind of a no-brainer. A higher level feature stipulating that the Rogue has advantage on any attack on which they don't have disadvantage instead, maybe?

 

I kind of agree on both points. I want weapon mastery pretty much just for warrior classes. And I feel steady aim is counter to the entire point of cunning action. I'd want to see something in their places though. 

Steady Aim is because DM's can be reticent for hiding actions or withhold other sneak attack granting states.  The rewording about an ally within 5 feet is also an explicit way of stating "these are when you can used sneak attack" because otherwise you are trying to hide and hide and hide.... It's annoying, and the DM is not going to be a fan or give you your ability to do what you do every turn. 

The cunning action and weapon mastery I already spoke of. 

The hiding in shadows is also just wrong. 2 of the subclasses actually are "hide in shadows" archetypes. The swashbuckler is anything but, the mastermind isn't a "literally lurk in shadows" type, especially in combat, and the investigator is basically the police: anything but shadows. Soulknife is a psychic edgelord, but doesn't necessarily need to be shadowy. Phantom is... well.. another "edgy" archetype. Assassin and thieves are the only ones that actually work in shadows and by staying hidden. 

Don't forget Vex lasts until the end of your NEXT turn.  Potentially allowing you to chain sneak attacks on subsequent turns without relying on any assistance, or giving up your movement to steady aim.

so we need to take a dip or a feat for hand xbow?

That's actually my biggest gripe with the revised Rogue.  Not every class needs to have the same subclass progression, but no class should be waiting till level 9 for the second set of subclass abilities.  That should universally be between levels 5 and 7 for all classes.

I never considered the Soulknife to be an edgelord of any kind, unless the player is responsible for it - and certainly not in the ways any subclass with Gloom, Hex, Shadow, or Vengeance in their names encourage.  The Soulknife is the character who basically can't fail a skill check once a few levels are under them.  It's rare for them to fail in Tier 2, and unheard of in Tier 3 without a GM going well out of their way to force a failure. 

Quote from HeroZero >>

Don't forget Vex lasts until the end of your NEXT turn.  Potentially allowing you to chain sneak attacks on subsequent turns without relying on any assistance, or giving up your movement to steady aim.

 Also, you can pair a Vex weapon with a Nick weapon (e.g. shortsword and scimitar), so that a hit with Vex triggers sneak attack on the Nick weapon, and still preserves your BA.