Well, that's a personal opinion and this is not the place to change your mind about Pathfinder 2e (not Pathfinder 1e). But I am telling you that you can find that character building philosophy in pathfinder 2e. In 5e you will never see that.
You know, one thing I actually liked with 4E (even though we don't talk about 4E), was how it introduced the concept of spending Hit Dice on other things than recovering your hit points. (As well as, I guess, introducing the concept of spending Hit Dice altogether...)
Wouldn't be awfully warlocky to surrender your own vitality to your patron in exchange for some more scraps from their table? (ie spell slots) Some sort of mechanic where X/Long Rest you could propitiate your patron for more power by offering up 1 or more (Warlock) Hit Dice?
"Take my blood offering, you damned Fiend, but give me the power to seek vengeance on these hobgoblins!"
No one said high charisma makes them good at utility. There are 3 tiers of play exploration, social, combat. The Warlock is capable in all 3. You want to play a wizard with a different hat. Just play the damn wizard and give yourself the flavor text of warlock.
I wantr this spellcasting class to be able to cast spells. That aren't Eldritch Blast. How often have martial players complained over the years about being bored because the only thing they ever get to do in combat is say "I attack with my weapon", and yet you're pushing ferociously to try and ensure warlocks can't ever do anything but say "I cast Eldritch Blast" because you're obsessed with this hyper-low-magic thing that mandates eight hundred and seventy-three short rests a day before the warlock even simply breaks even with an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. if you want the sort of gameplay you're after, just replace Pact Magic with "Roll 1d4-3; this is the number of spell slots you have over the course of your character's entire lifetime."
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Or I will continue to cast spells fairly frequently as a warlock because I don't play in your weird world where you have a dozen encounters a day with 0 short rests. .You inability to cast spells as a warlock is a you problem. We get it you are obsessed with every caster just being a different shade of wizard. But some people like different things, the better option is for those different things to exist instead of gross grey corporate homogenization.
And don't you think that the Warlock should at least have the possibility of having level 1-2-3 spell slots? Pact tome now gives you a level 1 spell slot (which is almost irrelevant in real gameplay, by the way). Don't you think that should scale with the level? I don't know, a lvl 2 spell slot at level 3, and a lvl 3 spell slot at lvl 5. Or maybe the possibility of buying those spell slots with Eldritch Invocations.
I don't agree that a level 1 spell slot is irrelevant. But sure, in my initial review of this UAs warlock either in this thread or another one I suggested there should be invocations that expand pact of the tomes slot a long with a few other changes. I'd probably cap it at level 2 spells as level 3 spells start becoming power house spells.
You know, one thing I actually liked with 4E (even though we don't talk about 4E), was how it introduced the concept of spending Hit Dice on other things than recovering your hit points. (As well as, I guess, introducing the concept of spending Hit Dice altogether...)
Wouldn't be awfully warlocky to surrender your own vitality to your patron in exchange for some more scraps from their table? (ie spell slots) Some sort of mechanic where X/Long Rest you could propitiate your patron for more power by offering up 1 or more (Warlock) Hit Dice?
"Take my blood offering, you damned Fiend, but give me the power to seek vengeance on these hobgoblins!"
Or I will continue to cast spells fairly frequently as a warlock because I don't play in your weird world where you have a dozen encounters a day with 0 short rests.
There is nothing "weird" about not wasting over half of every single day sitting around jacking off instead of adventuring, no matter what else is going on. Short rests are bad game design and need to either disappear or be extensively rethought.
You inability to cast spells as a warlock is a you problem.
It explicitly is not. Wizards has stated on more than one occasion that one of the most consistent pieces of feedback they get on the warlock class is that players feel like their outrageously limited Pact Magic slots are too precious to ever actually use, and so players feel like they can't cast their magic and end up using no leveled spells throughout the day. A constant request has been to improve the warlock's spellcasting so that they can actually cast spells. Y'know, without bullying the DM and infuriating the rest of the party by insisting on a short rest after every single action any character takes.
They tried your thing. Your thing failed. Stop clinging to a failed idea.
We get it you are obsessed with every caster just being a different shade of wizard. But some people like different things, the better option is for those different things to exist instead of gross grey corporate homogenization.
"Better spellcasting" does not mean "is a wizard". You're simply unrealistically over-focused on the failed - and I repeat, FAILED - idea of short-rest spellcasting. There are other ways to differentiate the warlock class without the unpleasant and frustrating to play Pact Magic short-rest-max-slot system that effectively prevents leveled spellcasting.
Or I will continue to cast spells fairly frequently as a warlock because I don't play in your weird world where you have a dozen encounters a day with 0 short rests.
There is nothing "weird" about not wasting over half of every single day sitting around jacking off instead of adventuring, no matter what else is going on.
You only adventure for 2 hours a day? That would explain a lot.
Either you get no short rests a day because you're actually adventuring and time is real, or you get so many short rests per day that your "short rest recharge" abilities are at-will abilities in all but name. There is no in between. Short rests are bad broken game design and they will never work "as intended", unless you bully your DM into making your entire party invulnerable to all harm and intervention for an hour, twelve times per day.
I am going to run through this warlock at every level and compare to wizard.
I am going to ignore feats unless lessons of the first one, because both can take feats. I am going to assume 1 short rest because everyone benefits from one and spending hit dice to continue the adventure and not give the bad guys a full day to advance their schemes. I am also assuming Pact of the Tome is taken because the complaint is specifically about casting more spells, so seems obvious to take the one that lets you cast more spells and not the one that makes you more martial character.
Level 1 Wizard 2 first level spell slots, recover 1 on short rest for total of 3 spells per day 6 spells in spell book, 4 spells prepared, 3 cantrips. Ritual spells do not need to be prepared to be cast providing potentially 2 ritual spells +4 spells prepared.
vs
Level 1 Warlock with pact of the tome invocation.... 2 first level spell slots recover 1 on short rest for total of 3 spells per day, 2 spells known, 2 rituals that can be changed on short rest for total of 4 spells known and 5 cantrips (3 from any list).
Verdict: Same number of spells cast with same strength, wizard wins spells known versatility and strength, warlock wins cantrips known versatility and strength. Casting=
Level 2 Wizard 3 first level spell slots recover 1 on short rest for total of 4 spells per day, 8 spells in spell book, 5 prepared, 3 cantrips. Ritual casting......
vs
Level 2 Warlock pact of the tome, agonizing blast.... invocation to be determined.... 3 first level spell slots 1 recovered with a minute 2 recovered on a short rest, total spells per day 6, 3 spells prepared, 5 cantrips, and 2 rituals. Invocation can provide at will casting of multiple first level spells including jump, silent image, disguise self, false life, mage armor, provide perma devil sight (dark vision is a second level spell) or be used to take magic initiate to take more cantrips and get any other first level spell wanted.
Verdict: The wizard is blushing, It wishes it had the power the warlock has at this point.... but we know what yoda says about the dark side... quicker, easier, more seductive.
Level 3 Wizard 11 spells known (2 from level up 1 from savant feature of their subclass) 4 first level spells, 2 second level spells, recover a second on short rest for 4 and 3, total casts 7, total higher level casts 3. Cantrips 3... ritual casting note again.
Level 3 Warlock, 8 Spells prepared (4 unable to be chosen from patron), + 2 rituals, 2 second level spell slots 1 first level slot, recover 1 second level after 1 min, recover 2 on short rest. Total casts 6 with 5 higher level casts. Still has 1 at will first level spell.
Verdict: Roughly even in number of casts and in spells available. Strength of spells favors Warlock, the wizard is still blushing.
Level 4, each character gets 1 more cantrip and one more spell prepared. So far we are 4 levels in and the warlock is just better than a wizard at casting spells.
Level 5. Wizard, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, recover 1 third on a short rest. 9 spells prepared + ability to change one on a short rest. Total leveled spells cast, 10.
Level 5 Warlock, 1 first, 2 3rd, recover 1 third through magical cunning, recover 2 on short rest. Total level spells per day 6 spells prepared 12+ 2 rituals (6 chosen by patron). 2 More invocations "NEW INVOCATIONS AVAILABLE", These include at will self levitate (second level spells), At will Self Invisibility (Second level spell), Water breathing once per long rest (3rd level spell), At will alter self (second level spell).
Verdit: this is getting closer, the wizard gets 3 3rd vs the warlocks 5, wizard has 4 more leveled casts, but 2 less at the highest level. Warlock who takes tome and agonizing blast also has his pick of 3 at will spells ranging from first to second level. Both have ritual spells that don't count against their number of preparations. I would still say warlock wins out on casting by a small margin.
Level 6, I would say evens things up more between wizard and warlock putting the wizard a little ahead as it gets another 3rd level spell slot and warlock only gets subclass feature and a spell prepared.
Level 7, Wizard 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, recover 1 4th on short... 2 spells at highest level, 5 total "bombs" and 12 total spell casts per day. up to 11 prepared spells and ability to swap one out.
Level 7 Warlock, 1 first 2 fourth, recover 1 fourth in a minute, recover 2 on short rest, total spells still 6, total highest level 5, total "bombs" 5. Another invocation, new invocation available, Whispers of the grave. Up to 4 at will spells ranging from first to second level or one being speak with the dead.
Verdict: At this point if the at will spells are not putting in work for the warlock the wizard is taking it, but if they are the warlock is still keeping up and passing the wizard. The wizard has more flexibility, the warlock has more consistency.
level 8, wizard gets another 4th level slot, really helping him out and pushing him past the warlock bombs. Definitively can say the wizard is finally the better caster no doubt here.
level 9 Wizard is up to 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 fourth and 1 fifth slot recovering 1 fifth on a short rest, 2 highest level, 8 "bombs", 15 total casts.
Level 9 Warlock 1 first 2 fifth, recover 1 fifth in a minute, recover 2 on short rest, total 6 spells, 5 highest and total "bombs". Also gain cast of contact other plane (5th level utility spell). Additional invocation unlocked, new invocations available, arcane eye at will (4th level utility spell), Gift of protectors (effectively one use deathward a 4th level spell). up to 5 at will spells. I want to note I do believe wizard is ahead here, but 5 at will spells is A LOT of at will spells and allows for A LOT of variety of utility.
level 10 wizard pulls further ahead.
Level 11 Warlock turns on and doesn't turn back. 1 first, 3 5th 1 6th, recover 2 5th after 1 minute and 3 after a short rest. For a total of 10 casts per day, of which only 1 is below 5th level. That is a lot of spell casting.
Overall verdict. THIS version (not 2014 version). is just more powerful than wizard early on. Wizard over takes by a margin in the mid levels with 6, 8 and 10 being the best levels for the wizard over the warlock, but after level 11 they are definitively both good casters no matter how you slice it.
Edit: Should be noted Contact Other Plane is a ritual spell as well. So while you can only cast it to contact your patron and automatically succeed the save once per long rest, there is nothing stopping you from also just casting it as a ritual with no spell slot but with the risk of failing the save.
Either you get no short rests a day because you're actually adventuring and time is real, or you get so many short rests per day that your "short rest recharge" abilities are at-will abilities in all but name. There is no in between. Short rests are bad broken game design and they will never work "as intended", unless you bully your DM into making your entire party invulnerable to all harm and intervention for an hour, twelve times per day.
Or you get one or two short rests a day because your table plays a game that isn't in weirdo land where people can never ever take a break. Short rests work.
Level 11 Warlock turns on and doesn't turn back. 1 first, 3 5th 1 6th, recover 2 5th after 1 minute and 3 after a short rest. For a total of 10 casts per day, of which only 1 is below 5th level. That is a lot of spell casting.
Overall verdict. THIS version (not 2014 version). is just more powerful than wizard early on. Wizard over takes by a margin in the mid levels with 6, 8 and 10 being the best levels for the wizard over the warlock, but after level 11 they are definitively both good casters no matter how you slice it.
Edit: Should be noted Contact Other Plane is a ritual spell as well. So while you can only cast it to contact your patron and automatically succeed the save once per long rest, there is nothing stopping you from also just casting it as a ritual with no spell slot but with the risk of failing the save.
Add in Archfey with their 5 free castings of Misty Step (plus maybe some as a side-effect of other abilities? I only read it once, but that sounds right) - and if you're a level 12 warlock without a 20 Charisma, you are playing wrong, lol. Plus various free castings from invocations. 2024 Warlock if it stays UA 7 version or better is going to be fun. Even if you DM screws you over with no short rests. Which also screws over plenty enough abilities from other classes. I don't recall hearing Battle Master lovers whining this much about lacka short rests, for example.
Level 11 Warlock turns on and doesn't turn back. 1 first, 3 5th 1 6th, recover 2 5th after 1 minute and 3 after a short rest. For a total of 10 casts per day, of which only 1 is below 5th level. That is a lot of spell casting.
Overall verdict. THIS version (not 2014 version). is just more powerful than wizard early on. Wizard over takes by a margin in the mid levels with 6, 8 and 10 being the best levels for the wizard over the warlock, but after level 11 they are definitively both good casters no matter how you slice it.
Edit: Should be noted Contact Other Plane is a ritual spell as well. So while you can only cast it to contact your patron and automatically succeed the save once per long rest, there is nothing stopping you from also just casting it as a ritual with no spell slot but with the risk of failing the save.
Add in Archfey with their 5 free castings of Misty Step (plus maybe some as a side-effect of other abilities? I only read it once, but that sounds right) - and if you're a level 12 warlock without a 20 Charisma, you are playing wrong, lol. Plus various free castings from invocations. 2024 Warlock if it stays UA 7 version or better is going to be fun. Even if you DM screws you over with no short rests. Which also screws over plenty enough abilities from other classes. I don't recall hearing Battle Master lovers whining this much about lacka short rests, for example.
I will honestly state that I left subclasses off on purpose save for what they have in common as they have always varied. Though I will note the warlock has consistently had solid subclasses though I feel bad for fiend right now.
No one said high charisma makes them good at utility. There are 3 tiers of play exploration, social, combat. The Warlock is capable in all 3. You want to play a wizard with a different hat. Just play the damn wizard and give yourself the flavor text of warlock.
I wantr this spellcasting class to be able to cast spells. That aren't Eldritch Blast. How often have martial players complained over the years about being bored because the only thing they ever get to do in combat is say "I attack with my weapon", and yet you're pushing ferociously to try and ensure warlocks can't ever do anything but say "I cast Eldritch Blast" because you're obsessed with this hyper-low-magic thing that mandates eight hundred and seventy-three short rests a day before the warlock even simply breaks even with an Eldritch Knight or Arcane Trickster. if you want the sort of gameplay you're after, just replace Pact Magic with "Roll 1d4-3; this is the number of spell slots you have over the course of your character's entire lifetime."
Or better yet, just eliminate Pact Magic entirely and erase the warlocks ability to cast leveled spells at all in your games. Then you will have the no-spellcasting-spellcaster you seem to be pushing so goddamned hard for, ne?
Or I will continue to cast spells fairly frequently as a warlock because I don't play in your weird world where you have a dozen encounters a day with 0 short rests. .You inability to cast spells as a warlock is a you problem. We get it you are obsessed with every caster just being a different shade of wizard. But some people like different things, the better option is for those different things to exist instead of gross grey corporate homogenization.
Jeremy Crawford explained in a video that they had tried the warlock halfcaster option because a lot of people were complaining that his magic was too limited. What Yurei says is not nonsense.
The cases are many:
- People who play without short rest. And here I agree that completely eliminating the short rest is absurd, to say the least. But there are people who do it.
- People who play with short rest, but allow them only when the narrative warrants it. This is my case as DM. If the players ask me for a short rest in a place that is not appropriate, they will be interrupted and caught with their pants around their ankles.
- People who only do 1 or 2 fights per day. Then there is a long rest. In these cases, by comparison, the warlock's magic is much more limited than that of any other caster.
- Game groups in which it is the DM who establishes when a short rest is made. In this case what happens is that the warlock may be afraid to spend his spell slots since it is uncertain when he will have them back.
In my experience as a player, I played a campaign up to lvl 15 with a genie warlock in which you could short rest whenever you wanted. That warlock was broken. I also played a hexblade up to lvl 17 in a game where there was only 1 short rest per day at most. That warlock wasn't bad in terms of gameplay, but it was boring and flat. I also played warlock halfcaster up to lvl 10, and it was fun and effective. In addition to that it did not depend on how the short rest are played in the game.
I am going to run through this warlock at every level and compare to wizard.
I am going to ignore feats unless lessons of the first one, because both can take feats. I am going to assume 1 short rest because everyone benefits from one and spending hit dice to continue the adventure and not give the bad guys a full day to advance their schemes. I am also assuming Pact of the Tome is taken because the complaint is specifically about casting more spells, so seems obvious to take the one that lets you cast more spells and not the one that makes you more martial character.
Level 1 Wizard 2 first level spell slots, recover 1 on short rest for total of 3 spells per day 6 spells in spell book, 4 spells prepared, 3 cantrips. Ritual spells do not need to be prepared to be cast providing potentially 2 ritual spells +4 spells prepared.
vs
Level 1 Warlock with pact of the tome invocation.... 2 first level spell slots recover 1 on short rest for total of 3 spells per day, 2 spells known, 2 rituals that can be changed on short rest for total of 4 spells known and 5 cantrips (3 from any list).
Verdict: Same number of spells cast with same strength, wizard wins spells known versatility and strength, warlock wins cantrips known versatility and strength. Casting=
Level 2 Wizard 3 first level spell slots recover 1 on short rest for total of 4 spells per day, 8 spells in spell book, 5 prepared, 3 cantrips. Ritual casting......
vs
Level 2 Warlock pact of the tome, agonizing blast.... invocation to be determined.... 3 first level spell slots 1 recovered with a minute 2 recovered on a short rest, total spells per day 6, 3 spells prepared, 5 cantrips, and 2 rituals. Invocation can provide at will casting of multiple first level spells including jump, silent image, disguise self, false life, mage armor, provide perma devil sight (dark vision is a second level spell) or be used to take magic initiate to take more cantrips and get any other first level spell wanted.
Verdict: The wizard is blushing, It wishes it had the power the warlock has at this point.... but we know what yoda says about the dark side... quicker, easier, more seductive.
Level 3 Wizard 11 spells known (2 from level up 1 from savant feature of their subclass) 4 first level spells, 2 second level spells, recover a second on short rest for 4 and 3, total casts 7, total higher level casts 3. Cantrips 3... ritual casting note again.
Level 3 Warlock, 8 Spells prepared (4 unable to be chosen from patron), + 2 rituals, 2 second level spell slots 1 first level slot, recover 1 second level after 1 min, recover 2 on short rest. Total casts 6 with 5 higher level casts. Still has 1 at will first level spell.
Verdict: Roughly even in number of casts and in spells available. Strength of spells favors Warlock, the wizard is still blushing.
Level 4, each character gets 1 more cantrip and one more spell prepared. So far we are 4 levels in and the warlock is just better than a wizard at casting spells.
Level 5. Wizard, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, recover 1 third on a short rest. 9 spells prepared + ability to change one on a short rest. Total leveled spells cast, 10.
Level 5 Warlock, 1 first, 2 3rd, recover 1 third through magical cunning, recover 2 on short rest. Total level spells per day 6 spells prepared 12+ 2 rituals (6 chosen by patron). 2 More invocations "NEW INVOCATIONS AVAILABLE", These include at will self levitate (second level spells), At will Self Invisibility (Second level spell), Water breathing once per long rest (3rd level spell), At will alter self (second level spell).
Verdit: this is getting closer, the wizard gets 3 3rd vs the warlocks 5, wizard has 4 more leveled casts, but 2 less at the highest level. Warlock who takes tome and agonizing blast also has his pick of 3 at will spells ranging from first to second level. Both have ritual spells that don't count against their number of preparations. I would still say warlock wins out on casting by a small margin.
Level 6, I would say evens things up more between wizard and warlock putting the wizard a little ahead as it gets another 3rd level spell slot and warlock only gets subclass feature and a spell prepared.
Level 7, Wizard 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, recover 1 4th on short... 2 spells at highest level, 5 total "bombs" and 12 total spell casts per day. up to 11 prepared spells and ability to swap one out.
Level 7 Warlock, 1 first 2 fourth, recover 1 fourth in a minute, recover 2 on short rest, total spells still 6, total highest level 5, total "bombs" 5. Another invocation, new invocation available, Whispers of the grave. Up to 4 at will spells ranging from first to second level or one being speak with the dead.
Verdict: At this point if the at will spells are not putting in work for the warlock the wizard is taking it, but if they are the warlock is still keeping up and passing the wizard. The wizard has more flexibility, the warlock has more consistency.
level 8, wizard gets another 4th level slot, really helping him out and pushing him past the warlock bombs. Definitively can say the wizard is finally the better caster no doubt here.
level 9 Wizard is up to 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 fourth and 1 fifth slot recovering 1 fifth on a short rest, 2 highest level, 8 "bombs", 15 total casts.
Level 9 Warlock 1 first 2 fifth, recover 1 fifth in a minute, recover 2 on short rest, total 6 spells, 5 highest and total "bombs". Also gain cast of contact other plane (5th level utility spell). Additional invocation unlocked, new invocations available, arcane eye at will (4th level utility spell), Gift of protectors (effectively one use deathward a 4th level spell). up to 5 at will spells. I want to note I do believe wizard is ahead here, but 5 at will spells is A LOT of at will spells and allows for A LOT of variety of utility.
level 10 wizard pulls further ahead.
Level 11 Warlock turns on and doesn't turn back. 1 first, 3 5th 1 6th, recover 2 5th after 1 minute and 3 after a short rest. For a total of 10 casts per day, of which only 1 is below 5th level. That is a lot of spell casting.
Overall verdict. THIS version (not 2014 version). is just more powerful than wizard early on. Wizard over takes by a margin in the mid levels with 6, 8 and 10 being the best levels for the wizard over the warlock, but after level 11 they are definitively both good casters no matter how you slice it.
Edit: Should be noted Contact Other Plane is a ritual spell as well. So while you can only cast it to contact your patron and automatically succeed the save once per long rest, there is nothing stopping you from also just casting it as a ritual with no spell slot but with the risk of failing the save.
You missed the fact that Patron spells are always prepared and don't count towards the limit. Warlock pulls ahead in spells prepared at 3rd level, and maintains the advantage all the way to level 20, where Warlocks have 26 prepared spells and Wizards have 25.
Edit: and that's without Invocations or Tome spells.
Edit edit: nevermind. I missed the structure of your post.
It would be great if WotC published some data on rest frequency amongst their players. We see a lot of strong opinions one way or another on the board but they're all based on personal experiences that may not mesh with most other players. Like the whole 'more spell slots is the most common feedback' issue may just be a very vocal 10% of players and the 90% liked pact magic as is.
Either you get no short rests a day because you're actually adventuring and time is real, or you get so many short rests per day that your "short rest recharge" abilities are at-will abilities in all but name. There is no in between. Short rests are bad broken game design and they will never work "as intended", unless you bully your DM into making your entire party invulnerable to all harm and intervention for an hour, twelve times per day.
This is demonstrably false, as I've played two warlock characters and I can absolutely assert that I was able to get two short rests a day, if needed.
Again, you seem to be assuming what's normal at your table is normal across the board (or should be). This idea of taking a short rest every other hour is frankly weird. Does anyone actually have a game with 6-8 encounters per game day - with each encounter being of the deadly variety - every single game day? This sounds not just exhausting but almost abusive. Granted, if you're dungeoncrawling or in an enemy fortress, you're likely to have a high number of encounters per day in those specific circumstances. But on other days, when you're traveling or in a city? And are you saying it's the norm, from level 1 all the way to campaign's end, to have every single game day running on a ticking clock, where the stakes are so high and the enemies so numerous and powerful, that taking a rest once or twice during the day translates to the bad guys gaining advantages that guarantee their victory?
What's funny is that I'm on board with ditching the short rest mechanic for warlocks as long as the new version retains a distinct flavor, making it look and feel in gameplay different from wizards, sorcerers, and clerics. But these kind of hyperbolic claims hurt your case, not help them.
You know, one thing I actually liked with 4E (even though we don't talk about 4E), was how it introduced the concept of spending Hit Dice on other things than recovering your hit points. (As well as, I guess, introducing the concept of spending Hit Dice altogether...)
Wouldn't be awfully warlocky to surrender your own vitality to your patron in exchange for some more scraps from their table? (ie spell slots) Some sort of mechanic where X/Long Rest you could propitiate your patron for more power by offering up 1 or more (Warlock) Hit Dice?
"Take my blood offering, you damned Fiend, but give me the power to seek vengeance on these hobgoblins!"
Like an Invocation that lets a warlock expand warlock hit dice to cast their warlock spells of 1st-5th level. Like your out of Pact Slots and want to cast Mind Spike you can expand 2 hit dice, roll them you take damage equal to the numbers rolled and you can get a bonus of either the DC increases by the number of hit dice used, the damage increases by the numbers rolled on the hit dice, or a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of dice rolled.
the maximum number of hit dice you can expand per spell is equal to your constitution modifier.
You know, one thing I actually liked with 4E (even though we don't talk about 4E), was how it introduced the concept of spending Hit Dice on other things than recovering your hit points. (As well as, I guess, introducing the concept of spending Hit Dice altogether...)
Wouldn't be awfully warlocky to surrender your own vitality to your patron in exchange for some more scraps from their table? (ie spell slots) Some sort of mechanic where X/Long Rest you could propitiate your patron for more power by offering up 1 or more (Warlock) Hit Dice?
"Take my blood offering, you damned Fiend, but give me the power to seek vengeance on these hobgoblins!"
Like an Invocation that lets a warlock expand warlock hit dice to cast their warlock spells of 1st-5th level. Like your out of Pact Slots and want to cast Mind Spike you can expand 2 hit dice, roll them you take damage equal to the numbers rolled and you can get a bonus of either the DC increases by the number of hit dice used, the damage increases by the numbers rolled on the hit dice, or a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of dice rolled.
the maximum number of hit dice you can expand per spell is equal to your constitution modifier.
Expending hit dice is okay…taking damage like that is not.
Like your out of Pact Slots and want to cast Mind Spike you can expand 2 hit dice, roll them you take damage equal to the numbers rolled and you can get a bonus of either the DC increases by the number of hit dice used, the damage increases by the numbers rolled on the hit dice, or a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of dice rolled.
Expending hit dice is okay…taking damage like that is not.
I was about to say, spending a hit dice AND being hurt for it at the same time feels a bit like double dipping into the punishment pool :)
But, honestly, a class that exclusively fuel their magic using hit dice would be so interesting! Like Monks and Sorcerers, they would naturally get a maximum of 20 of these "points". That's also in the same general volume as the 22 spell slots available to a full caster. However, I have no idea how to balance how much each "point" would be worth.
Still it'd be an interesting high-risk high-reward type of class! :)
Even when a Warlock does get two short rests per day, this is still not a fix.
1) From levels 1-10, i.e. the vast majority of campaigns and printed modules and even Baldurs effing Gate, their bandaid slot recovery mechanic gives you a whopping one slot per Long Rest in a pinch. Cue the very SR-begging and slot-hoarding they tried and failed to solve. And you're still going to be ignoring useful low-level spells like Shield, Misty Step (non-Archfey), Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs etc.
2) Most Invocations don't compete for your slots now, but they're still 90% utility/exploration - so you'll still cast your two combat slots and then resort to boring cantrip spam (EB archery) in a fight. And you'll also be backloading those utility choices behind your mandatory Pact Boons, Agonizing/Repelling Blast that will keep you alive etc. Cue Every Warlock in Tier 1 and Tier 2 looking damn near identical aside from being split into the Blade and Tome camps.
3) Pact Slots still don't scale past 5th level or interact with Spellcasting at all, so Warlocks are still the worst upcasters in the game, and they can do nothing to improve it. This is especially glaring for summoning, which they should arguably be toe-to-toe or close at with Wizards (look at how many summoning spells they get for proof). Consider the GOOlock capstone - you get to Summon Aberration, but you have to use your own slots to do it so it's never getting stronger than its 4th level version - even with the buffs to its damage and health, it's not going to compete with a 6th level summon never mind an 8th-level one from any wizard, and especially not a Conjurer or Necromancer.
I'm not against Pact Slots returning, but give Warlocks actual spellcasting too. Or let Mystic Arcanum be usable for upcasting in some way, even if you have to spend invocations on the privilege.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Well, that's a personal opinion and this is not the place to change your mind about Pathfinder 2e (not Pathfinder 1e). But I am telling you that you can find that character building philosophy in pathfinder 2e. In 5e you will never see that.
You know, one thing I actually liked with 4E (even though we don't talk about 4E), was how it introduced the concept of spending Hit Dice on other things than recovering your hit points. (As well as, I guess, introducing the concept of spending Hit Dice altogether...)
Wouldn't be awfully warlocky to surrender your own vitality to your patron in exchange for some more scraps from their table? (ie spell slots) Some sort of mechanic where X/Long Rest you could propitiate your patron for more power by offering up 1 or more (Warlock) Hit Dice?
"Take my blood offering, you damned Fiend, but give me the power to seek vengeance on these hobgoblins!"
Or I will continue to cast spells fairly frequently as a warlock because I don't play in your weird world where you have a dozen encounters a day with 0 short rests. .You inability to cast spells as a warlock is a you problem. We get it you are obsessed with every caster just being a different shade of wizard. But some people like different things, the better option is for those different things to exist instead of gross grey corporate homogenization.
I don't agree that a level 1 spell slot is irrelevant. But sure, in my initial review of this UAs warlock either in this thread or another one I suggested there should be invocations that expand pact of the tomes slot a long with a few other changes. I'd probably cap it at level 2 spells as level 3 spells start becoming power house spells.
It is thematic at least.
There is nothing "weird" about not wasting over half of every single day sitting around jacking off instead of adventuring, no matter what else is going on. Short rests are bad game design and need to either disappear or be extensively rethought.
It explicitly is not. Wizards has stated on more than one occasion that one of the most consistent pieces of feedback they get on the warlock class is that players feel like their outrageously limited Pact Magic slots are too precious to ever actually use, and so players feel like they can't cast their magic and end up using no leveled spells throughout the day. A constant request has been to improve the warlock's spellcasting so that they can actually cast spells. Y'know, without bullying the DM and infuriating the rest of the party by insisting on a short rest after every single action any character takes.
They tried your thing. Your thing failed. Stop clinging to a failed idea.
"Better spellcasting" does not mean "is a wizard". You're simply unrealistically over-focused on the failed - and I repeat, FAILED - idea of short-rest spellcasting. There are other ways to differentiate the warlock class without the unpleasant and frustrating to play Pact Magic short-rest-max-slot system that effectively prevents leveled spellcasting.
Please do not contact or message me.
You only adventure for 2 hours a day? That would explain a lot.
I don't know how many times I need to say it.
Nobody. Ever. Gets "two" short rests a day.
Either you get no short rests a day because you're actually adventuring and time is real, or you get so many short rests per day that your "short rest recharge" abilities are at-will abilities in all but name. There is no in between. Short rests are bad broken game design and they will never work "as intended", unless you bully your DM into making your entire party invulnerable to all harm and intervention for an hour, twelve times per day.
Please do not contact or message me.
I am going to run through this warlock at every level and compare to wizard.
I am going to ignore feats unless lessons of the first one, because both can take feats. I am going to assume 1 short rest because everyone benefits from one and spending hit dice to continue the adventure and not give the bad guys a full day to advance their schemes. I am also assuming Pact of the Tome is taken because the complaint is specifically about casting more spells, so seems obvious to take the one that lets you cast more spells and not the one that makes you more martial character.
Level 1 Wizard 2 first level spell slots, recover 1 on short rest for total of 3 spells per day 6 spells in spell book, 4 spells prepared, 3 cantrips. Ritual spells do not need to be prepared to be cast providing potentially 2 ritual spells +4 spells prepared.
vs
Level 1 Warlock with pact of the tome invocation.... 2 first level spell slots recover 1 on short rest for total of 3 spells per day, 2 spells known, 2 rituals that can be changed on short rest for total of 4 spells known and 5 cantrips (3 from any list).
Verdict: Same number of spells cast with same strength, wizard wins spells known versatility and strength, warlock wins cantrips known versatility and strength. Casting=
Level 2 Wizard 3 first level spell slots recover 1 on short rest for total of 4 spells per day, 8 spells in spell book, 5 prepared, 3 cantrips. Ritual casting......
vs
Level 2 Warlock pact of the tome, agonizing blast.... invocation to be determined.... 3 first level spell slots 1 recovered with a minute 2 recovered on a short rest, total spells per day 6, 3 spells prepared, 5 cantrips, and 2 rituals. Invocation can provide at will casting of multiple first level spells including jump, silent image, disguise self, false life, mage armor, provide perma devil sight (dark vision is a second level spell) or be used to take magic initiate to take more cantrips and get any other first level spell wanted.
Verdict: The wizard is blushing, It wishes it had the power the warlock has at this point.... but we know what yoda says about the dark side... quicker, easier, more seductive.
Level 3
Wizard 11 spells known (2 from level up 1 from savant feature of their subclass) 4 first level spells, 2 second level spells, recover a second on short rest for 4 and 3, total casts 7, total higher level casts 3. Cantrips 3... ritual casting note again.
Level 3 Warlock, 8 Spells prepared (4 unable to be chosen from patron), + 2 rituals, 2 second level spell slots 1 first level slot, recover 1 second level after 1 min, recover 2 on short rest. Total casts 6 with 5 higher level casts. Still has 1 at will first level spell.
Verdict: Roughly even in number of casts and in spells available. Strength of spells favors Warlock, the wizard is still blushing.
Level 4, each character gets 1 more cantrip and one more spell prepared. So far we are 4 levels in and the warlock is just better than a wizard at casting spells.
Level 5. Wizard, 4 first, 3 second, 2 third, recover 1 third on a short rest. 9 spells prepared + ability to change one on a short rest. Total leveled spells cast, 10.
Level 5 Warlock, 1 first, 2 3rd, recover 1 third through magical cunning, recover 2 on short rest. Total level spells per day 6 spells prepared 12+ 2 rituals (6 chosen by patron). 2 More invocations "NEW INVOCATIONS AVAILABLE", These include at will self levitate (second level spells), At will Self Invisibility (Second level spell), Water breathing once per long rest (3rd level spell), At will alter self (second level spell).
Verdit: this is getting closer, the wizard gets 3 3rd vs the warlocks 5, wizard has 4 more leveled casts, but 2 less at the highest level. Warlock who takes tome and agonizing blast also has his pick of 3 at will spells ranging from first to second level. Both have ritual spells that don't count against their number of preparations. I would still say warlock wins out on casting by a small margin.
Level 6, I would say evens things up more between wizard and warlock putting the wizard a little ahead as it gets another 3rd level spell slot and warlock only gets subclass feature and a spell prepared.
Level 7, Wizard 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 1 4th, recover 1 4th on short... 2 spells at highest level, 5 total "bombs" and 12 total spell casts per day. up to 11 prepared spells and ability to swap one out.
Level 7 Warlock, 1 first 2 fourth, recover 1 fourth in a minute, recover 2 on short rest, total spells still 6, total highest level 5, total "bombs" 5. Another invocation, new invocation available, Whispers of the grave. Up to 4 at will spells ranging from first to second level or one being speak with the dead.
Verdict: At this point if the at will spells are not putting in work for the warlock the wizard is taking it, but if they are the warlock is still keeping up and passing the wizard. The wizard has more flexibility, the warlock has more consistency.
level 8, wizard gets another 4th level slot, really helping him out and pushing him past the warlock bombs. Definitively can say the wizard is finally the better caster no doubt here.
level 9 Wizard is up to 4 first, 3 second, 3 third, 3 fourth and 1 fifth slot recovering 1 fifth on a short rest, 2 highest level, 8 "bombs", 15 total casts.
Level 9 Warlock 1 first 2 fifth, recover 1 fifth in a minute, recover 2 on short rest, total 6 spells, 5 highest and total "bombs". Also gain cast of contact other plane (5th level utility spell). Additional invocation unlocked, new invocations available, arcane eye at will (4th level utility spell), Gift of protectors (effectively one use deathward a 4th level spell). up to 5 at will spells. I want to note I do believe wizard is ahead here, but 5 at will spells is A LOT of at will spells and allows for A LOT of variety of utility.
level 10 wizard pulls further ahead.
Level 11 Warlock turns on and doesn't turn back. 1 first, 3 5th 1 6th, recover 2 5th after 1 minute and 3 after a short rest. For a total of 10 casts per day, of which only 1 is below 5th level. That is a lot of spell casting.
Overall verdict. THIS version (not 2014 version). is just more powerful than wizard early on. Wizard over takes by a margin in the mid levels with 6, 8 and 10 being the best levels for the wizard over the warlock, but after level 11 they are definitively both good casters no matter how you slice it.
Edit: Should be noted Contact Other Plane is a ritual spell as well. So while you can only cast it to contact your patron and automatically succeed the save once per long rest, there is nothing stopping you from also just casting it as a ritual with no spell slot but with the risk of failing the save.
Or you get one or two short rests a day because your table plays a game that isn't in weirdo land where people can never ever take a break. Short rests work.
Add in Archfey with their 5 free castings of Misty Step (plus maybe some as a side-effect of other abilities? I only read it once, but that sounds right) - and if you're a level 12 warlock without a 20 Charisma, you are playing wrong, lol. Plus various free castings from invocations. 2024 Warlock if it stays UA 7 version or better is going to be fun. Even if you DM screws you over with no short rests. Which also screws over plenty enough abilities from other classes. I don't recall hearing Battle Master lovers whining this much about lacka short rests, for example.
I will honestly state that I left subclasses off on purpose save for what they have in common as they have always varied. Though I will note the warlock has consistently had solid subclasses though I feel bad for fiend right now.
Jeremy Crawford explained in a video that they had tried the warlock halfcaster option because a lot of people were complaining that his magic was too limited. What Yurei says is not nonsense.
The cases are many:
- People who play without short rest. And here I agree that completely eliminating the short rest is absurd, to say the least. But there are people who do it.
- People who play with short rest, but allow them only when the narrative warrants it. This is my case as DM. If the players ask me for a short rest in a place that is not appropriate, they will be interrupted and caught with their pants around their ankles.
- People who only do 1 or 2 fights per day. Then there is a long rest. In these cases, by comparison, the warlock's magic is much more limited than that of any other caster.
- Game groups in which it is the DM who establishes when a short rest is made. In this case what happens is that the warlock may be afraid to spend his spell slots since it is uncertain when he will have them back.
In my experience as a player, I played a campaign up to lvl 15 with a genie warlock in which you could short rest whenever you wanted. That warlock was broken. I also played a hexblade up to lvl 17 in a game where there was only 1 short rest per day at most. That warlock wasn't bad in terms of gameplay, but it was boring and flat. I also played warlock halfcaster up to lvl 10, and it was fun and effective. In addition to that it did not depend on how the short rest are played in the game.
You missed the fact that Patron spells are always prepared and don't count towards the limit. Warlock pulls ahead in spells prepared at 3rd level, and maintains the advantage all the way to level 20, where Warlocks have 26 prepared spells and Wizards have 25.
Edit: and that's without Invocations or Tome spells.
Edit edit: nevermind. I missed the structure of your post.
It would be great if WotC published some data on rest frequency amongst their players. We see a lot of strong opinions one way or another on the board but they're all based on personal experiences that may not mesh with most other players. Like the whole 'more spell slots is the most common feedback' issue may just be a very vocal 10% of players and the 90% liked pact magic as is.
This is demonstrably false, as I've played two warlock characters and I can absolutely assert that I was able to get two short rests a day, if needed.
Again, you seem to be assuming what's normal at your table is normal across the board (or should be). This idea of taking a short rest every other hour is frankly weird. Does anyone actually have a game with 6-8 encounters per game day - with each encounter being of the deadly variety - every single game day? This sounds not just exhausting but almost abusive. Granted, if you're dungeoncrawling or in an enemy fortress, you're likely to have a high number of encounters per day in those specific circumstances. But on other days, when you're traveling or in a city? And are you saying it's the norm, from level 1 all the way to campaign's end, to have every single game day running on a ticking clock, where the stakes are so high and the enemies so numerous and powerful, that taking a rest once or twice during the day translates to the bad guys gaining advantages that guarantee their victory?
What's funny is that I'm on board with ditching the short rest mechanic for warlocks as long as the new version retains a distinct flavor, making it look and feel in gameplay different from wizards, sorcerers, and clerics. But these kind of hyperbolic claims hurt your case, not help them.
Like an Invocation that lets a warlock expand warlock hit dice to cast their warlock spells of 1st-5th level. Like your out of Pact Slots and want to cast Mind Spike you can expand 2 hit dice, roll them you take damage equal to the numbers rolled and you can get a bonus of either the DC increases by the number of hit dice used, the damage increases by the numbers rolled on the hit dice, or a bonus to the attack roll equal to the number of dice rolled.
the maximum number of hit dice you can expand per spell is equal to your constitution modifier.
Expending hit dice is okay…taking damage like that is not.
I was about to say, spending a hit dice AND being hurt for it at the same time feels a bit like double dipping into the punishment pool :)
But, honestly, a class that exclusively fuel their magic using hit dice would be so interesting! Like Monks and Sorcerers, they would naturally get a maximum of 20 of these "points". That's also in the same general volume as the 22 spell slots available to a full caster. However, I have no idea how to balance how much each "point" would be worth.
Still it'd be an interesting high-risk high-reward type of class! :)
Even when a Warlock does get two short rests per day, this is still not a fix.
1) From levels 1-10, i.e. the vast majority of campaigns and printed modules and even Baldurs effing Gate, their bandaid slot recovery mechanic gives you a whopping one slot per Long Rest in a pinch. Cue the very SR-begging and slot-hoarding they tried and failed to solve. And you're still going to be ignoring useful low-level spells like Shield, Misty Step (non-Archfey), Absorb Elements, Silvery Barbs etc.
2) Most Invocations don't compete for your slots now, but they're still 90% utility/exploration - so you'll still cast your two combat slots and then resort to boring cantrip spam (EB archery) in a fight. And you'll also be backloading those utility choices behind your mandatory Pact Boons, Agonizing/Repelling Blast that will keep you alive etc. Cue Every Warlock in Tier 1 and Tier 2 looking damn near identical aside from being split into the Blade and Tome camps.
3) Pact Slots still don't scale past 5th level or interact with Spellcasting at all, so Warlocks are still the worst upcasters in the game, and they can do nothing to improve it. This is especially glaring for summoning, which they should arguably be toe-to-toe or close at with Wizards (look at how many summoning spells they get for proof). Consider the GOOlock capstone - you get to Summon Aberration, but you have to use your own slots to do it so it's never getting stronger than its 4th level version - even with the buffs to its damage and health, it's not going to compete with a 6th level summon never mind an 8th-level one from any wizard, and especially not a Conjurer or Necromancer.
I'm not against Pact Slots returning, but give Warlocks actual spellcasting too. Or let Mystic Arcanum be usable for upcasting in some way, even if you have to spend invocations on the privilege.