I don't think 1/3 caster is too strong at all. Those low level spell slots offer some options, but not the same kind of raw power that full casters have, not to mention that pact magic caps out at level 5, and mystic arcanum is once per day.
EDIT: Warlock players want to cast more spells per day. WOTC admits this and they want to accommodate that, so they say. Adding additional PACT magic slots /would/ be too strong. So, that leaves adding lower level spell slots. 1/3 is the slowest existing progression, and adds more flavor than it adds POWER. Many EK players have tried to build blasters out of 1/3 progression and failed...because 1/3 casters enhance rather than define.
It is too strong if you keep all my favorite invocations. The moment you really lean into the 1/3 caster + Warlock you need to remove most of the best low level at will spell invocations. I guess they technically already remove Eldritch Sight and Beast Speech. You also need to remove mask of Many Faces and a majority of the at wills. I think you could still have 8 invocations on the class, but the level 1-4 spell at wills probably shouldn’t be a thing. They should be added to spell list. As for the spells that were once a day I suppose we could keep those invocations.
For many or even most games, those are pretty low value invocations. Most of the at wills are of fairly low value; good outside combat, but utterly useless inside it. For an RP heavy campaign, I can acknowledge their value, but I don't think I'd care if I had a player who could do that at will AND have pact magic plus 1/3 casters. For invocations with some actual combat value, my would advocate to limiting to prof bonus times/short rest. It's enough uses to feel good, but not so much as to be "at will".
The invocations that I look at as too powerful are many of the EB enhancements, the pulls and pushes. The range boost is a trap, and agonizing blast imo should be baseline for all casters. Then of course there are things like devil's sight, but...that's not a rabbit hole to go down. In general, I think invocations need some revision, and there needs to be a lot more selection there to choose from.
I think invocations are definitely the way to go as well.
The EB enhancements aren't so bad in and of themselves, it's more that if you have EB, you can collect them all in any order at any time.
I don't find moving things around on the battlefield to be terribly useful unless you're moving things out of AOE range so your companions can move out of range, OR if your DM is silly and just leaves all the monsters close enough for a spell with a geometry to hit (in which case you want to move the ones on the edge further in).
Spear is a bit more suspicious, though as a DM I honestly don't know when i would ever draw a 120 x120 square map.
My DMs never did (create big maps), and with my out of the box range, I remember not having enough range a time or two, but it was rare enough that I don't remember details.
As for moving things around, I found it tended to annoy the DM more than anything else, and stacking it up, bolting the same guy and moving him back felt cheesy so I quit doing it. I don't take those invocations anymore because the DM's life is hard enough. Why annoy him and slow things down by re-ordering the battlefield every round because I can. Let the martials do that with their new mastery attacks imo, at least they have to wade into melee and take some additional risks to do it.
Where I found it (at-will movement) particularly useful is "fixing" things for people. Monster rolls up on the sorc. Well let me push that away so you can reposition yourself without eating OA and such. Or pushing baddies into melee...powerful is probably the wrong word, it's not broken, but it felt cheesy and the DM didn't care for it, so I stopped using that invocation, and didn't take it on my next two warlocks. It's a social game and after DMing for some crap that I really didn't like in 4e, I try to limit things that antagonize.
Different DM's...
I'd get pissed at moving things around just to move them around, but I don't know, last session my players were surrounded and I was stuck where I kinda wanted to disengage, but to do so would have been out of character for the monsters and the one character went down.
It was a lot of bad rolls but also was trying to balance for challenge. (Basically a colliseum event as well, so if they went down I was going to revive them anyhow and an NPC told them medics would pull them out so....)
not for nothing, i'm plenty annoyed at warlocks being given the tiefling treatment where they might be misunderstood and persecuted or they might be just a quirky color pallet choice in a sea of quirky snowflakes [sorry, i know that's a loaded word], quickly normalized. before fiddling with the mechanisms, i feel it would benefit the class more immediately to break with the 'taboo' and 'dark scholar' main identities in UA8, touch grass, and end too-easy multiclass dips. from there, see what consensus is of those that remain.
that doesn't mean ditch the fiend and great old ones patrons! every good class has it's shadowy sub-stuff. instead, i have this theory that allowing warlock to be defacto 'troubled background' in dipped-class form is consequently spreading around lots of un-mundane features (magic swords, short rest pact spells, at will disguise self, etc). while these dips observably dilute CHA classes and martials, it's also normalizing being magical and side-lining being heroically mundane. which leads to more EK and trickster sublcasses too. because magical is the meme. or maybe i'm reading too much into this?
I think you're overshooting on this one.
Unfortunately as much as broody edgelords are back in vogue (and I was in HS for the grunge/goth days of the 90's where too many kids were obsessed with The Crow and hot topic, and trust me, it's SUPER awkward to see kids doing that these days), I think video games really ruined it and what I see is that people have less characters and more "builds".
I think the Tasha shake down has yet to really hit and once they do, custom lineage might be a bit more be impactful. Free skills and a feat before you pick a level is pretty damned big (especially since you CAN do a weapon proficiency outside of your class, which skips some multiclassing for access to say, a greatsword or a heavy crossbow or...), and you might see a shift. It's hard though because other species have a LOT of desirable add one and the stat restrictions now remove the dilemma of stats or species traits like dark vision or swim speed or unarmored AC...
Browse the rogue forum and look at the favorite race question. It's all answers about tabaxi for movement or this race for that. It's not really...role play.
I think also what you are seeing is just the fact that people lack creativity.
As I mentioned above, I like creative mixes. I got a Goliath archfey chain warlock* in the wings I'm itching to play, and he's getting traditional warlock stat boosts, which AREN'T cha.
I think something like that is criticized unfairly by a lot of players as suboptimal and other players are afraid of playing something like that because them they'll be "playing it wrong" and made fun of not optimizing their build correctly.
Multiclassing is a munchkin move most of the time. Occasionally you'll get someone who might want to change class, but with feats that can grant you just about any SINGLE thing you might want to multiclass for, multiclassing is the better optimization option, even if a just grabbing a feat is mostly supposed to be a lifestyle improvement choice.
Anyhow, builds are more the thing than character trends.
*I have an idea for him to be "tricked" into the pact, by "stealing" his arcane focus, which was something just handed to him by one of the fey, and occasionally has to do something for his patron, like stealing silverware, not for any real benefit, except that it pleases his patron to force him to do something that is against his code (the warlock being lawful to neutral good). His pseudodragon familiar is really just another victim of the archery's whims.
The reason you see builds and not character is because at its core D&D is a game about manipulating dice rolls. People want to figure out how to succeed on more dice rolls. Combat has more dice rolls than any other part of the game so a lot of people only focus on combat. Also most importantly it’s easier to have discussions and debates about best builds than it is best character storylines. Most people aren’t going on forums to look for their characters backstory (some actually do.)
It's not about manipulating dice. Well, ok, not all of it, which is why monsters are kind of a pushover in this version compared to others and why the mechanics were simplified...
To push forward role playing.
What is it that supposedly separated 5e from its predecessors?
The thing is the community itself exists at a time where rpg's and mmo's are mostly level grinding and best builds and anime is all about having "cheat codes" in RPG like worlds.
Where superheroes have dominated the theaters for the past (oh God...) decade or longer.
People utterly SUCK at playing a role. They live in a world where having flaws or being less than rich and powerful is damned near a death sentence...
I mean builds over characters is kind of a "duh" thing.
It's not my play style, but I was arguing that the warlock isn't being picked because it's an edgelords class nearly as much as people pick it for optimization.
.you want a player that's shooting themselves in the foot? Rangers.
You want an edgelords class, nearly 90% of the time? Rogues.
You want a class people pick because they THINK it's going to be straightforward and easy? Fighter. (They should have picked rogue).
If you want people to role play don’t make a game with a separate combat system. Your combat and your roll play systems should blend seamlessly. I remember DMing for my kids one time and they said, “can we skip to game.” They just wanted to kill monsters. To them the game was killing monsters, not the rolls outside of combat.
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
If you want people to role play don’t make a game with a separate combat system. Your combat and your roll play systems should blend seamlessly. I remember DMing for my kids one time and they said, “can we skip to game.” They just wanted to kill monsters. To them the game was killing monsters, not the rolls outside of combat.
I didn't make the game..lol.
We all just play it. And both have importance.
Just saying that you don't HAVE to optimize, and the combat's pretty tame.
You have young kids (10 or younger) that are enjoying it, right?
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
Utility is all those low level spell slots count for. When it comes to infiltration, I'd rather use stealth and disguise skills than hand wave them away with something like mask of many faces anyways.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
Personally I'm a fan of invocations. They're flexible so you can give people who want to cast like a caster more those abilities through invocations that grant slots, and you can give invocations to those who want stronger range or melee options those options as well.
The invocations really are the best thing to lean into for customization.
Plus if invocations are used to get slots, then you're basically getting what you're asking for as they have to give up an invocation for each extra slot, and I get what I want by getting to keep my invocations for other things.
The mystic arcanum is the part that all warlocks should be willing to part with (and they can make an invocation for that too).
EDIT: Basically the warlock can be a bit of a build-a-bear class through the invocations.
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
Personally I'm a fan of invocations. They're flexible so you can give people who want to cast like a caster more those abilities through invocations that grant slots, and you can give invocations to those who want stronger range or melee options those options as well.
The invocations really are the best thing to lean into for customization.
Plus if invocations are used to get slots, then you're basically getting what you're asking for as they have to give up an invocation for each extra slot, and I get what I want by getting to keep my invocations for other things.
The mystic arcanum is the part that all warlocks should be willing to part with (and they can make an invocation for that too).
EDIT: Basically the warlock can be a bit of a build-a-bear class through the invocations.
I like that idea. Want to be more weapon combat focused? Invocation’s that can give you a fighting style or one that gives temp hp or armor proficiencies.
Want to be more summoning focus? Invocation’s that allow summoning specific creatures and one that increases the summoned creatures survivability and combat potential.
Want more spell casting focus? Invocations that give extra slots and invocations that lets you select spells from other spell lists and cast them once per long rest.
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
Personally I'm a fan of invocations. They're flexible so you can give people who want to cast like a caster more those abilities through invocations that grant slots, and you can give invocations to those who want stronger range or melee options those options as well.
The invocations really are the best thing to lean into for customization.
Plus if invocations are used to get slots, then you're basically getting what you're asking for as they have to give up an invocation for each extra slot, and I get what I want by getting to keep my invocations for other things.
The mystic arcanum is the part that all warlocks should be willing to part with (and they can make an invocation for that too).
EDIT: Basically the warlock can be a bit of a build-a-bear class through the invocations.
They'd need to seriously balance high level invocations to compete with Mystic Arcanum, as they tried your suggestion last playtest. Even people who overall liked the UA5 warlock came out against making Mystic Arcanum an Invocation choice since they considered it so much better than the others it was a false choice. When there are 10 options and even a casual optimizer only sees 2, those being option B and wrong, you need to go back to the drawing board.
The fix for that is to only have mystic arcanum invocation for 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells and give 14 invocations total. That additional 4 is suppose to be for Mystic Arcanums but if you really want something else at that point go ahead. I think the harder part would be balancing the invocations that give spell slots. How many spell slots should they give? At what levels do they become available? At what point would you be granting too many spell slots?
The fix for that is to only have mystic arcanum invocation for 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells and give 14 invocations total. That additional 4 is suppose to be for Mystic Arcanums but if you really want something else at that point go ahead. I think the harder part would be balancing the invocations that give spell slots. How many spell slots should they give? At what levels do they become available? At what point would you be granting too many spell slots?
IDK. 7th, 9th, 11th, 12th? This would theoretically DOUBLE the pact slots, but they'd still be only up to level 5
Typical spellcaster has 2 level 5 spell by level 10, plus 18 lower level spells. By level 12, they're doing level 6 spells plus 20 spells between levels 1-5.
And remember, it takes sacrificing 4 invocations for that.
Do you think that's fair or should it be adjusted?
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
Personally I'm a fan of invocations. They're flexible so you can give people who want to cast like a caster more those abilities through invocations that grant slots, and you can give invocations to those who want stronger range or melee options those options as well.
The invocations really are the best thing to lean into for customization.
Plus if invocations are used to get slots, then you're basically getting what you're asking for as they have to give up an invocation for each extra slot, and I get what I want by getting to keep my invocations for other things.
The mystic arcanum is the part that all warlocks should be willing to part with (and they can make an invocation for that too).
EDIT: Basically the warlock can be a bit of a build-a-bear class through the invocations.
They'd need to seriously balance high level invocations to compete with Mystic Arcanum, as they tried your suggestion last playtest. Even people who overall liked the UA5 warlock came out against making Mystic Arcanum an Invocation choice since they considered it so much better than the others it was a false choice. When there are 10 options and even a casual optimizer only sees 2, those being option B and wrong, you need to go back to the drawing board.
That's hilarious. They must see the spell slot's spell level number and salivate. Nothing the warlock gets as a level 6-9 spell is exclusive as far as I recall, and if you want that spell so badly, other casters have a better chance of casting it multiple times. In fact, at level 17 your warlock gets a limited 9th level choice... woohoo. It's so late in the game that it's not really worth caring much about but if you get to level 20 as any other full caster, you'll have a few more of those 6 and 7 spells.
I think the reviewers are putting way too much emphasis on the late game play, especially as many of the "recharges" are looking to expend a mystic arcanum slot that you're not going to get till level 12 anyway. The earlier game is where you're typically relying on recharges, by late game you have everything you're going to get. If mystic arcanum are so precious that you horde them and don't use them, well....
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only. Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2 prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3 prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only. Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2 prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3 prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
I trust you. You are far better at specifics and looking at the information at hand than me.
I'm a generalizations and overview sort of person.
I like that it's tied to WARLOCK levels which helps deal with the multiclassing issue, and that you're giving increasingly more spell slots. (My simplistic answer was just to give one each).
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only. Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2 prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3 prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
I think something like this would be the simplest compromise. Although I'd imagine that it would probably just list the number of spell slots in a table or something instead of redirecting back to Wizard, but I think that progression makes sense. I think it would require some playtesting to nail down exactly how many spell slots should be gained... I get the feeling that I would prefer this to have 3 stages instead of 4, and have each stage be a little more potent. I think it would be better for the class that, if someone does want to get more traditional spell slots as a Warlock, they're not too locked out of enjoying other invocations.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only. Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2 prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3 prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
If I am understanding this correctly, the first Awakened Power Improvement seems quite underwhelming, and would only be an invocation tax to get to Awakened Power Improvement 2. As written, Awakened Power would give the Warlock two first level spell slots (a decent deal), while Awakened Power Improvement would only provide one additional first level slot, making it far less powerful than the original Invocation. Awakened Power Improvement 2 would then give them a total of four first level slots and three second level slots (also decent) and Awakened Power 3 would provide them three third level slots and one fourth level slot (quite nice).
So, did you make a mistake in how you worded Awakened Power Improvement, or did you not realize how underwhelming it would be?
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only. Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2 prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3 prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
The reason you see builds and not character is because at its core D&D is a game about manipulating dice rolls. People want to figure out how to succeed on more dice rolls. Combat has more dice rolls than any other part of the game so a lot of people only focus on combat. Also most importantly it’s easier to have discussions and debates about best builds than it is best character storylines. Most people aren’t going on forums to look for their characters backstory (some actually do.)
We will have to agree to disagree, because I absolutely disagree. If I wanted to play a game where I just manipulated dice rolls to get a gold star for "git gud" I'd play a hack-and-slash videogame. There is absolutely no reason for me to want to play with any other person, or any other person to want to play with me in order to do that. And TBH, I kind of wouldn't mind if WotC releases an AI to run the monsters for their VTT because I don't want this kind of person at my table.
We will have to agree to disagree, because I absolutely disagree. If I wanted to play a game where I just manipulated dice rolls to get a gold star for "git gud" I'd play a hack-and-slash videogame. There is absolutely no reason for me to want to play with any other person, or any other person to want to play with me in order to do that. And TBH, I kind of wouldn't mind if WotC releases an AI to run the monsters for their VTT because I don't want this kind of person at my table.
And if someone wants an entirely crunch-free, narrative only Story For The Ages, the best way to get it is to read a book.
People like to piss all over "crunchy' folks, constantly shame them and call them all sorts of terrible names, but tabletop RPGs are at their best when narrative and mechanics align to make an experience that is both a story - with narrative structure, character growth, conflict resolution, and the like - and a game - with rules, win states and loss states, and ways to chase the former and avoid the latter - at the same time. Nothing else can match the ability of a TTRPG to be both a freeform rolling story that reacts to what the players do no matter what that turns out to be and also a game that challenges the players to achieve victory in the face of adversity. Video games can't, novels can't. People who reject all forms of crunch in favor of a Rules-Free Narrative Experience are missing the point just as much if not more so than people who don't care about all the fluffy roleplaying and just want to roll dice and slay monsters.
I also wonder if it would be too sloppy to tack on spell slots as riders to other Invocations. We already have something like this with the new version of Pact of the Tome, which includes a single traditional first level spell slot in addition to the other features of the invocation. Could we possibly take some lesser invocations and juice them by adding a bonus spell slot?
Different DM's...
I'd get pissed at moving things around just to move them around, but I don't know, last session my players were surrounded and I was stuck where I kinda wanted to disengage, but to do so would have been out of character for the monsters and the one character went down.
It was a lot of bad rolls but also was trying to balance for challenge. (Basically a colliseum event as well, so if they went down I was going to revive them anyhow and an NPC told them medics would pull them out so....)
If you want people to role play don’t make a game with a separate combat system. Your combat and your roll play systems should blend seamlessly. I remember DMing for my kids one time and they said, “can we skip to game.” They just wanted to kill monsters. To them the game was killing monsters, not the rolls outside of combat.
The problem with 1/3 caster + Pact Magic keeping all its low level utility, RP, infiltration at will invocations is that it then gets to save all is newly acquired spell slots just for combat. That is not balanced at all. The reason they get the invocations is because they don’t have spell slots. I’m fine giving up those invocations because I DM more than I play so if players want more spell slots that’s a fair trade. I’ve also seen some suggest invocations that grant spell slots. That could be the happy medium.
I didn't make the game..lol.
We all just play it. And both have importance.
Just saying that you don't HAVE to optimize, and the combat's pretty tame.
You have young kids (10 or younger) that are enjoying it, right?
Utility is all those low level spell slots count for. When it comes to infiltration, I'd rather use stealth and disguise skills than hand wave them away with something like mask of many faces anyways.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Personally I'm a fan of invocations. They're flexible so you can give people who want to cast like a caster more those abilities through invocations that grant slots, and you can give invocations to those who want stronger range or melee options those options as well.
The invocations really are the best thing to lean into for customization.
Plus if invocations are used to get slots, then you're basically getting what you're asking for as they have to give up an invocation for each extra slot, and I get what I want by getting to keep my invocations for other things.
The mystic arcanum is the part that all warlocks should be willing to part with (and they can make an invocation for that too).
EDIT: Basically the warlock can be a bit of a build-a-bear class through the invocations.
I like that idea. Want to be more weapon combat focused? Invocation’s that can give you a fighting style or one that gives temp hp or armor proficiencies.
Want to be more summoning focus? Invocation’s that allow summoning specific creatures and one that increases the summoned creatures survivability and combat potential.
Want more spell casting focus? Invocations that give extra slots and invocations that lets you select spells from other spell lists and cast them once per long rest.
They'd need to seriously balance high level invocations to compete with Mystic Arcanum, as they tried your suggestion last playtest. Even people who overall liked the UA5 warlock came out against making Mystic Arcanum an Invocation choice since they considered it so much better than the others it was a false choice. When there are 10 options and even a casual optimizer only sees 2, those being option B and wrong, you need to go back to the drawing board.
The fix for that is to only have mystic arcanum invocation for 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells and give 14 invocations total. That additional 4 is suppose to be for Mystic Arcanums but if you really want something else at that point go ahead. I think the harder part would be balancing the invocations that give spell slots. How many spell slots should they give? At what levels do they become available? At what point would you be granting too many spell slots?
IDK. 7th, 9th, 11th, 12th? This would theoretically DOUBLE the pact slots, but they'd still be only up to level 5
Typical spellcaster has 2 level 5 spell by level 10, plus 18 lower level spells. By level 12, they're doing level 6 spells plus 20 spells between levels 1-5.
And remember, it takes sacrificing 4 invocations for that.
Do you think that's fair or should it be adjusted?
That's hilarious. They must see the spell slot's spell level number and salivate. Nothing the warlock gets as a level 6-9 spell is exclusive as far as I recall, and if you want that spell so badly, other casters have a better chance of casting it multiple times. In fact, at level 17 your warlock gets a limited 9th level choice... woohoo. It's so late in the game that it's not really worth caring much about but if you get to level 20 as any other full caster, you'll have a few more of those 6 and 7 spells.
I think the reviewers are putting way too much emphasis on the late game play, especially as many of the "recharges" are looking to expend a mystic arcanum slot that you're not going to get till level 12 anyway. The earlier game is where you're typically relying on recharges, by late game you have everything you're going to get. If mystic arcanum are so precious that you horde them and don't use them, well....
Potential New Invocations
I did it this way to keep it simple for multi classing and to use a preexisting table. If you take all the invocations you would have slots equal to 1/3 caster or 7th level Wizard. I originally did it with 1 level per invocation but that consumed too many invocations to even be fun. I intentionally made it so you don’t have to take them in order or you could swap out for a better one. I’m sure there is probably better language for all of this.
Awakened Power
prerequisite: 3rd level Warlock
Your patron awakens powers within you giving access to spell slots similar to a Wizard. You count as having 1 level in the Wizard class for calculating spell slots only.
Spell Slots. The Wizard table shows how many Spell Slots you have to cast your spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher. You regain all expended Spell Slots when you finish a Long Rest.
Awakened Power Improvement
prerequisite: 5th level Warlock, Awakened power
Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain an additional level in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 2
prerequisite: 9th level Warlock, Awakened power
Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 2 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
Awakened Power Improvement 3
prerequisite: 18th level Warlock, Awakened power
Your Patron Awakens more of your power. You gain 3 additional levels in wizard only for calculating spell slots.
I trust you. You are far better at specifics and looking at the information at hand than me.
I'm a generalizations and overview sort of person.
I like that it's tied to WARLOCK levels which helps deal with the multiclassing issue, and that you're giving increasingly more spell slots. (My simplistic answer was just to give one each).
I think something like this would be the simplest compromise. Although I'd imagine that it would probably just list the number of spell slots in a table or something instead of redirecting back to Wizard, but I think that progression makes sense. I think it would require some playtesting to nail down exactly how many spell slots should be gained... I get the feeling that I would prefer this to have 3 stages instead of 4, and have each stage be a little more potent. I think it would be better for the class that, if someone does want to get more traditional spell slots as a Warlock, they're not too locked out of enjoying other invocations.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I would take those invocations.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If I am understanding this correctly, the first Awakened Power Improvement seems quite underwhelming, and would only be an invocation tax to get to Awakened Power Improvement 2. As written, Awakened Power would give the Warlock two first level spell slots (a decent deal), while Awakened Power Improvement would only provide one additional first level slot, making it far less powerful than the original Invocation. Awakened Power Improvement 2 would then give them a total of four first level slots and three second level slots (also decent) and Awakened Power 3 would provide them three third level slots and one fourth level slot (quite nice).
So, did you make a mistake in how you worded Awakened Power Improvement, or did you not realize how underwhelming it would be?
Just MC into Sorcerer.
We will have to agree to disagree, because I absolutely disagree. If I wanted to play a game where I just manipulated dice rolls to get a gold star for "git gud" I'd play a hack-and-slash videogame. There is absolutely no reason for me to want to play with any other person, or any other person to want to play with me in order to do that. And TBH, I kind of wouldn't mind if WotC releases an AI to run the monsters for their VTT because I don't want this kind of person at my table.
And if someone wants an entirely crunch-free, narrative only Story For The Ages, the best way to get it is to read a book.
People like to piss all over "crunchy' folks, constantly shame them and call them all sorts of terrible names, but tabletop RPGs are at their best when narrative and mechanics align to make an experience that is both a story - with narrative structure, character growth, conflict resolution, and the like - and a game - with rules, win states and loss states, and ways to chase the former and avoid the latter - at the same time. Nothing else can match the ability of a TTRPG to be both a freeform rolling story that reacts to what the players do no matter what that turns out to be and also a game that challenges the players to achieve victory in the face of adversity. Video games can't, novels can't. People who reject all forms of crunch in favor of a Rules-Free Narrative Experience are missing the point just as much if not more so than people who don't care about all the fluffy roleplaying and just want to roll dice and slay monsters.
Please do not contact or message me.
I also wonder if it would be too sloppy to tack on spell slots as riders to other Invocations. We already have something like this with the new version of Pact of the Tome, which includes a single traditional first level spell slot in addition to the other features of the invocation. Could we possibly take some lesser invocations and juice them by adding a bonus spell slot?
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium