"most of those 'at-will' spells had zero utility in combat"
Sorry but isn't the reason casters are uber powerful and utterly outshine martials in every way, because they have spells they can use outside of combat to solve every problem the party might face, while martials have to sit there eating potato chips doing nothing at all until initiative is rolled?
In which case all those at-will utility spells are a hugely powerful boost.
At this point I feel like the complaint is "i cant cast shield and silvery barbs a half dozen times per day so warlock sucks".
We have ran the numbers, we have shown the invocations. I have played it in game at level 7. I did more leveled spell casting than anyone in that game. Still only used one slot.
Talked about alternate rest rules for games that dont really run the standard.
This warlock isn't perfect. There are spells missing on the list, there are invocations missing. Honestly, the 20th level capstone is kind of a bummer.
I would LIKE to see something juicy at level 5 probably 7/8 or 9 to encourage less warlock dip and mc out. But this isnt that bad and is definitely a huge step up.
"most of those 'at-will' spells had zero utility in combat"
Sorry but isn't the reason casters are uber powerful and utterly outshine martials in every way, because they have spells they can use outside of combat to solve every problem the party might face, while martials have to sit there eating potato chips doing nothing at all until initiative is rolled?
In which case all those at-will utility spells are a hugely powerful boost.
The fact that martials can't do much outside of combat and yet casters can is another huge issue. The best ability scores for most things out of combat are Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence, all spell casting Abilities. Constitution has basically nothing, Strength has athletics, dexterity has a few including slight of hand. But what classes can or can not do outside of combat isn't going to redress the issues that also exist within combat.
But to address this, again, in 5E, Warlock didn't even get ritual spells as a default, you'd have to go pact of the tome and book of ancient secrets to even start getting rituals, meanwhile wizard gets rituals from level 1. Having played both Wizard and Warlock in 5E, Wizard's rituals are way more useful than warlock having to spend invocations to get "at-wills". I'd be quiet happy to see Warlock lose the at-will spells, since most of them, aren't that good and the few that are, could just be added to the warlock spell list.
"most of those 'at-will' spells had zero utility in combat"
Sorry but isn't the reason casters are uber powerful and utterly outshine martials in every way, because they have spells they can use outside of combat to solve every problem the party might face, while martials have to sit there eating potato chips doing nothing at all until initiative is rolled?
In which case all those at-will utility spells are a hugely powerful boost.
At this point I feel like the complaint is "i cant cast shield and silvery barbs a half dozen times per day so warlock sucks".
We have ran the numbers, we have shown the invocations. I have played it in game at level 7. I did more leveled spell casting than anyone in that game. Still only used one slot.
Talked about alternate rest rules for games that dont really run the standard.
This warlock isn't perfect. There are spells missing on the list, there are invocations missing. Honestly, the 20th level capstone is kind of a bummer.
I would LIKE to see something juicy at level 5 probably 7/8 or 9 to encourage less warlock dip and mc out. But this isnt that bad and is definitely a huge step up.
Warlock will be able to get shield via magic initiate with pact of the tome giving a 1st level slot, that is two casts a day without using warlock's pact magic spell slots.
that isn't the issue, altho for a 1st level spell, shield is overpowered, while spells like Witchbolt tend to be very underpowered, shield however gets no benefit from upcasting, witchbolt gets little while a spells like fireball or magic missile are actually still viable to be upcast to 5th level. Spells fundamentally aren't equal and not all spells upcast equally either, in fact it appears to WotC have dramatically reduced the levels of a lot of the "at will" spell invocations and removed the term "at will" from them in the UA, which should be evidence enough of how underpowered they were and I still believe them too be.
Ascendant Step, why not just get the fly spell? When do you need to levitate in battle? it requires concentration when there are better concentration spells, all you can use it for is to move up/down, and basically "walk" on a ceiling. Levitate is best used on hostile targets to lift them out of battle to begin with so the restriction to self makes it extremely lackluster. Fiendish Vigor, in my opinion it's lack of any scalability makes it weak, it should instead give CHA mod+PB temp HP on initiative roll and remove the spell casting bit entirely.
And this is all before you get into other invocations which are simply better, Agonizing Blast is almost required for near every warlock build, repelling blast too. For pact of the blade, thirsting blade and life drinker are near must have. For pact of the tome, Gift of the protectors which is basically a superior death ward (multiple targets, even if only works once/long rest), devil's sight... not sure why people are worried about at-will spells when there are non-spell invocations that simply do more and are better. Sure two of three of them add to RP, but RP is not made to be balanced in the first place, despite some more balance being needed to enable martials to have more tools/utility within RP/social interactions is needed.
"most of those 'at-will' spells had zero utility in combat"
Sorry but isn't the reason casters are uber powerful and utterly outshine martials in every way, because they have spells they can use outside of combat to solve every problem the party might face, while martials have to sit there eating potato chips doing nothing at all until initiative is rolled?
In which case all those at-will utility spells are a hugely powerful boost.
The fact that martials can't do much outside of combat and yet casters can is another huge issue. The best ability scores for most things out of combat are Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence, all spell casting Abilities. Constitution has basically nothing, Strength has athletics, dexterity has a few including slight of hand. But what classes can or can not do outside of combat isn't going to redress the issues that also exist within combat.
But to address this, again, in 5E, Warlock didn't even get ritual spells as a default, you'd have to go pact of the tome and book of ancient secrets to even start getting rituals, meanwhile wizard gets rituals from level 1. Having played both Wizard and Warlock in 5E, Wizard's rituals are way more useful than warlock having to spend invocations to get "at-wills". I'd be quiet happy to see Warlock lose the at-will spells, since most of them, aren't that good and the few that are, could just be added to the warlock spell list.
"most of those 'at-will' spells had zero utility in combat"
Sorry but isn't the reason casters are uber powerful and utterly outshine martials in every way, because they have spells they can use outside of combat to solve every problem the party might face, while martials have to sit there eating potato chips doing nothing at all until initiative is rolled?
In which case all those at-will utility spells are a hugely powerful boost.
At this point I feel like the complaint is "i cant cast shield and silvery barbs a half dozen times per day so warlock sucks".
We have ran the numbers, we have shown the invocations. I have played it in game at level 7. I did more leveled spell casting than anyone in that game. Still only used one slot.
Talked about alternate rest rules for games that dont really run the standard.
This warlock isn't perfect. There are spells missing on the list, there are invocations missing. Honestly, the 20th level capstone is kind of a bummer.
I would LIKE to see something juicy at level 5 probably 7/8 or 9 to encourage less warlock dip and mc out. But this isnt that bad and is definitely a huge step up.
Warlock will be able to get shield via magic initiate with pact of the tome giving a 1st level slot, that is two casts a day without using warlock's pact magic spell slots.
that isn't the issue, altho for a 1st level spell, shield is overpowered, while spells like Witchbolt tend to be very underpowered, shield however gets no benefit from upcasting, witchbolt gets little while a spells like fireball or magic missile are actually still viable to be upcast to 5th level. Spells fundamentally aren't equal and not all spells upcast equally either, in fact it appears to WotC have dramatically reduced the levels of a lot of the "at will" spell invocations and removed the term "at will" from them in the UA, which should be evidence enough of how underpowered they were and I still believe them too be.
Ascendant Step, why not just get the fly spell? When do you need to levitate in battle? it requires concentration when there are better concentration spells, all you can use it for is to move up/down, and basically "walk" on a ceiling. Levitate is best used on hostile targets to lift them out of battle to begin with so the restriction to self makes it extremely lackluster. Fiendish Vigor, in my opinion it's lack of any scalability makes it weak, it should instead give CHA mod+PB temp HP on initiative roll and remove the spell casting bit entirely.
And this is all before you get into other invocations which are simply better, Agonizing Blast is almost required for near every warlock build, repelling blast too. For pact of the blade, thirsting blade and life drinker are near must have. For pact of the tome, Gift of the protectors which is basically a superior death ward (multiple targets, even if only works once/long rest), devil's sight... not sure why people are worried about at-will spells when there are non-spell invocations that simply do more and are better. Sure two of three of them add to RP, but RP is not made to be balanced in the first place, despite some more balance being needed to enable martials to have more tools/utility within RP/social interactions is needed.
Yes you could always cast fly instead instead of self levitate. And, in fact, i took both on my playtest lock. Levitate, in this case, is for the Out of combat utility and mobility. So you dont have to use a slot to reach places easier. Fly is better, but it uses a slot.
Even when I am playing a druid, my highest level slots are reserved for combat while my lowest level slots are used either in short easy fights or, more likely, exploration and other out of combat utility. If I am level 8 i consider myself to have 5, maybe 6 because spike growth, combat spells for the day. The other 7 are largely considered utility. By level 9 it is up to 7 maybe 8.
At 5 it is 4 or 5, at 6 it is 5 or 6. By 7 it is 4 or 5. The same number of slots a lock is going to have after magical cunning and 1 short rest. Why am I comparing to druid. 1. Because I like druids and they are my most played caster besides locks. 2. Because like lock they have other features besides spells.
Why warlock is being compared to Wizard is beyond me. Wizards get almost no features besides subclass features and spells and, without invocations people want warlock to match wizard in spell casting? The only thing the wizard does?
Agonizing Blast is almost required for near every warlock build, repelling blast too
Do people really love Repelling blast that much? Having seen it in action, it seems to me to be an incredibly annoying feature. EB is designed to synergize with Hex for single-target damage, so strategically you want to focus fire with the rest of the party and attack the same enemy they are attacking. But this means if you've got melee characters in the party you are repelling the enemies out of their threat range which depending on the situation can mean they can't attack that enemy effectively on their turn. But the enemy can just move back and attack that melee character again on the enemey's turn.
Ascendant Step, why not just get the fly spell? When do you need to levitate in battle?
Because the fly spell costs a slot and you don't have a ton of those, but these aren't mutually exclusive either. You can easily get both if you need them. Levitate can raise you up out of reach of melee enemies which can be very helpful in battle, but also has tons of out of combat utility so you don't need to use your limited Pact Magic slots outside of combat. If you can't see why not using a slot to get across a river of lava before fighting a pack of demons is beneficial to the power of a Warlock then sorry, I think this discussion is over.
As for Master of Myriad Forms vs Mask of Many Faces, to be honest I'm shocked by how many people think an illusion is better than actually being the person you are impersonating. DMs must be being extremely permissive with Disguise Self cause RAW if you touch anything or anything touches you then everyone who can see you gets a check to see through your illusion, and if they touch you then they instantly recognize that it is an illusion and can see through it.
“As for Master of Myriad Forms vs Mask of Many Faces, to be honest I'm shocked by how many people think an illusion is better than actually being the person you are impersonating. DMs must be being extremely permissive with Disguise Self cause RAW if you touch anything or anything touches you then everyone who can see you gets a check to see through your illusion, and if they touch you then they instantly recognize that it is an illusion and can see through it.”
I can see the argument wherein Disguise Self will provide an outfit change, but Alter Self does not.
Ascendant Step, why not just get the fly spell? When do you need to levitate in battle?
Because the fly spell costs a slot and you don't have a ton of those, but these aren't mutually exclusive either. You can easily get both if you need them. Levitate can raise you up out of reach of melee enemies which can be very helpful in battle, but also has tons of out of combat utility so you don't need to use your limited Pact Magic slots outside of combat. If you can't see why not using a slot to get across a river of lava before fighting a pack of demons is beneficial to the power of a Warlock then sorry, I think this discussion is over.
As for Master of Myriad Forms vs Mask of Many Faces, to be honest I'm shocked by how many people think an illusion is better than actually being the person you are impersonating. DMs must be being extremely permissive with Disguise Self cause RAW if you touch anything or anything touches you then everyone who can see you gets a check to see through your illusion, and if they touch you then they instantly recognize that it is an illusion and can see through it.
If you're at the point where you need to Levitate, things have almost certainly already gone wrong and it's a concentration spell. There is very few reasons to use it in combat. after all you can basically trap yourself in the air if you're not careful since you can only move up and down unless you have something to push against or pull on. It's basically a very limited form of distance, control. You need something around 15~20 foot high to move but you need nothing to exist 5~10 foot above you else you can't even float high enough in the first place. Which means you need a high ceiling or to be outside somewhere like a forest. Also since it's concentration, if you do get hit, you can fail the save and just instantly end out in the middle of a mob of creatures. Overall, I really do not rate the ascendant step invocation.
Myriad of Forms is more likely to pass an inspection but has other weaknesses, first off you can not alter your size or fundamental shape, this means a human can not impersonate a gnome or a gnome impersonate a human, additionally a human can not impersonate an aarakocra since while they are bipedal, they have wings which is not the same basic shape. So basically there is very little difference between Myriad of Forms and just using a disguise kit, is you don't need disguise kit proficiency and the actor feat, overall I believe the fact that a single 2nd level spell replaces a feat and a proficiency like that, is terrible but hardly a singular case of utility spells that give too much.
Disguise self allows you to alter your appearance by up to one foot. This means you could find somewhere to hide, where you can see over the top of a crate or a rock but another creature can see nothing back, as your appearance is one foot shorter, depending on your DM you could also do the reverse, where you stand behind total cover but make yourself appear 1 foot taller, so creatures attack your "head" but all shoots miss, depends on DM. Additionally Disguise self allows you to "change" your clothing, appearing like another person isn't just about physical looks but also about your clothes and other such features, if you use alter self to appear like another person, you either need to replicate their clothes, steal their clothes or use disguise self to pass off your clothes as theirs. Disguise self has it's own short fall, it does not pass a physical interaction.
The other two features of Alter Self, can also be dismissed, Natural Weapons are just weaker than eldritch blast, they are strength based attacks and Warlocks rarely have a good strength score. Aquatic Adaptation is weaker than Water Breathing, which you could get from Gift of the Depths instead, being able to make your entire party breath water is already good, being able to do so without fear that the first attack that hits you, could remove your ability to breath water is just substantially more safe.
Um.. no. Nobody who actually knows the Queen would confuse any of the actresses who have played the Queen for being the actual Queen regardless of how good their makeup was. Whereas If you Alter Self, you become completely indistinguishable from the actual Queen. You also sound exactly like the Queen -> Disguise Self and Disguise Kits don't change your voice so the moment you speak you'll give yourself away.
Using Alter Self you could walk into a palace as the king and command the servants and guards to do your bidding. Using a disguise kit you might be able to pass yourself off as a servant. Using Disguise Self you might be able to pass yourself off as a guard as long as you don't touch anyone/anything and nobody tries to touch you.
Um.. no. Nobody who actually knows the Queen would confuse any of the actresses who have played the Queen for being the actual Queen regardless of how good their makeup was. Whereas If you Alter Self, you become completely indistinguishable from the actual Queen. You also sound exactly like the Queen -> Disguise Self and Disguise Kits don't change your voice so the moment you speak you'll give yourself away.
Using Alter Self you could walk into a palace as the king and command the servants and guards to do your bidding. Using a disguise kit you might be able to pass yourself off as a servant. Using Disguise Self you might be able to pass yourself off as a guard as long as you don't touch anyone/anything and nobody tries to touch you.
First off Quote Mine, quote it PROPERLY
So basically there is very little difference between Myriad of Forms and just using a disguise kit, is you don't need disguise kit proficiency and the actor feat
I'll admit, that I missed the word 'difference' after the comma, but that post is unedited and we can see the actor feat mentioned. Note the Actor feat's ability of Mimicry. You sound exactly like the queen, also you do not auto-pass deceptions of being the Queen, people can still pick up mannerisms, or note issues in the speech patterns themselves, Actor's feat is actually needed for the advantage of deception or you'll probably get found out quiet quickly if you try to pass yourself off as a noble. Additionally, you're in damaged adventurer clothes/armor with no crown, big big give away that something is wrong.
Also what you infer the disguise kit does, is no where in source material:
Disguise Kit. This pouch of cosmetics, hair dye, and small props lets you create disguises that change your physical appearance. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to create a visual disguise.
There is literally no part in this that says you can not pass yourself off as nobility or royalty. You can insist that it might be the case but there is no RAW or RAI to infer any such limitation, there is no part that says you can't pass yourself off as a different race or sex of the same size. Now if that person is of a different size, you can not as easily pass that off but again, it isn't noted in the Disguise Kit that, that is actually a limitation, the props could include padding to make somebody appear fat or a corset to make people appear some what thinner. Height would be the only real issue here.
A "visual disguise" is not the same as "You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any".
Disguise Kit. This pouch of cosmetics, hair dye, and small props lets you create disguises that change your physical appearance. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to create a visual disguise.
Notice it does not say anything about clothing here either, you can't make robes tor a quality that would be worn by nobility using a disguise kit, you need to buy those regardless of whether you use a disguise kit or use alter self. A crown covered in diamonds and precious stones likewise isn't a "small prop" you could make for only 50 gp.
A disguise kit is not magic, it is no more effective than Hollywood make up. Anyone familiar with the person you are pretending to be it going to have an easy time telling you are not really that person.
So there seems to be some emphasis on concentration vs non-concentration of disguise self vs alter self. Unless you did something like detect magic or are concentrating on a hex spell it really isn't going to matter. Second Alter Self's purpose should not be considered to replace disguise self it is a 2 in 1 invocation. It provides the ability to change yourself into anyone and also allow you to swim and breath underwater. It is 1 invocation that does disguise self and gift of the depths. It uses concentration, but in the scenarios you need it that may not be relevant. Beyond that there are enough good invocations that if some aren't "for you" than pick different ones. I have probably lost the thread and the conversation at this point.
(also the note earlier, yes you can get shield through MI, but you can't spam it, which I think is what people are complaining about with "not enough first or second level spells for combat")
it should instead give CHA mod+PB temp HP on initiative roll and remove the spell casting bit entirely.
So... 8 temporary hit points is terrible and too low, so you would change it to be 5 instead? Sorry but I really do not understand your argument here.
Assuming the player is maxing charisma it would break down as +5 from 1-3, +6 at @4, +7 from 5-7, +8 @8, +9 from 10-12, and +10 @ 13. Not really much change from the base, and I figure DM's would automatically assume the character refreshes their cast at the end of each encounter without needing to declare it each time unless there's some reason the Warlock wouldn't.
A "visual disguise" is not the same as "You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any".
Disguise Kit. This pouch of cosmetics, hair dye, and small props lets you create disguises that change your physical appearance. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to create a visual disguise.
Notice it does not say anything about clothing here either, you can't make robes tor a quality that would be worn by nobility using a disguise kit, you need to buy those regardless of whether you use a disguise kit or use alter self. A crown covered in diamonds and precious stones likewise isn't a "small prop" you could make for only 50 gp.
A disguise kit is not magic, it is no more effective than Hollywood make up. Anyone familiar with the person you are pretending to be it going to have an easy time telling you are not really that person.
I never said Disguise kit gives clothing, I did say that perhaps props could include padding and a corset, "props" is decided undefined to that degree. Now what I said alter self doesn't, which is why it's doing barely more than a disguise kit, alter self is little more than a disguise kit and the actor feat merged into a spell, which is part of the reason alter self is so bad, it literally makes a feat pointless because at least four different spell casting classes can do the same thing with a spell.
If you use Alter Self, you still need to go out and buy those same props, or you have to use the disguise self spell, or steal those clothes. In fact Alter Self doesn't even alter the clothes you are already wearing to your transformed size which should mean they rip or are baggy afterwards.
So there seems to be some emphasis on concentration vs non-concentration of disguise self vs alter self. Unless you did something like detect magic or are concentrating on a hex spell it really isn't going to matter. Second Alter Self's purpose should not be considered to replace disguise self it is a 2 in 1 invocation. It provides the ability to change yourself into anyone and also allow you to swim and breath underwater. It is 1 invocation that does disguise self and gift of the depths. It uses concentration, but in the scenarios you need it that may not be relevant. Beyond that there are enough good invocations that if some aren't "for you" than pick different ones. I have probably lost the thread and the conversation at this point.
(also the note earlier, yes you can get shield through MI, but you can't spam it, which I think is what people are complaining about with "not enough first or second level spells for combat")
Alter Self just isn't Gift of the Depths, nor should it be confused with it, you seemingly gain the same benefits but you do not. You can't alter your appearance and gain the water breathing at same time, you also can lose your water breathing too concentration, it's ultimately very VERY inferior to Gift of the Depths which is passive water breathing and can give water breathing to the whole party for 24 hours without any concentration. With Gift of the Depths, if you lose that concentration you're just dead, since you can't cast Alter Self underwater, it has a verbal component and you're drowning.
Obviously Alter Self and Disguise Self are meant to be used together, but that is two invocations, which early game is just not worth the invocations when there are just simply better invocations. You got Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Pact of Tome, Pact of Blade, Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Lessons of the First Ones, I dunno why we keep focusing on the underwhelming at-will invocations that don't cost a spell slot, they do very little for combat and RP isn't anywhere near properly designed in D&D to begin with for classes to have any semblance of balance in RP. A bard still basically out-does everybody since they can basically do everything in RP. Even with Alter Self, a bard is more likely to be able to trick their way into a castle and less likely to be discovered or arrested.
it should instead give CHA mod+PB temp HP on initiative roll and remove the spell casting bit entirely.
So... 8 temporary hit points is terrible and too low, so you would change it to be 5 instead? Sorry but I really do not understand your argument here.
Assuming the player is maxing charisma it would break down as +5 from 1-3, +6 at @4, +7 from 5-7, +8 @8, +9 from 10-12, and +10 @ 13. Not really much change from the base, and I figure DM's would automatically assume the character refreshes their cast at the end of each encounter without needing to declare it each time unless there's some reason the Warlock wouldn't.
This.
It is only lower at levels 1-7, it matches at level 8 and is higher at level 9. The problem with Fiendish Vigor is it does not scale to level, by level 15, +8 temp HP ain't doing it any more while +8 temp HP at level 1 is more than you'll likely ever need. And yes, making it at initiative just removes the unnecessary step of a warlock remembering to say they cast it after every encounter.
it should instead give CHA mod+PB temp HP on initiative roll and remove the spell casting bit entirely.
So... 8 temporary hit points is terrible and too low, so you would change it to be 5 instead? Sorry but I really do not understand your argument here.
Assuming the player is maxing charisma it would break down as +5 from 1-3, +6 at @4, +7 from 5-7, +8 @8, +9 from 10-12, and +10 @ 13. Not really much change from the base, and I figure DM's would automatically assume the character refreshes their cast at the end of each encounter without needing to declare it each time unless there's some reason the Warlock wouldn't.
This.
It is only lower at levels 1-7, it matches at level 8 and is higher at level 9. The problem with Fiendish Vigor is it does not scale to level, by level 15, +8 temp HP ain't doing it any more while +8 temp HP at level 1 is more than you'll likely ever need. And yes, making it at initiative just removes the unnecessary step of a warlock remembering to say they cast it after every encounter.
And 2 additional tmp HP make a difference? At level 15, the difference between 8 thp and 10 thp is negligible, it's a rounding error (2% of your max hp). Whereas at level 1, the difference between 5 thp and 8 thp can be a whole attack's worth. Plus most parties play much much more at level 1-7 than at level 15+ (in our campaign where we made it to level 17 we played 6 months of the campaign at levels 1-7 and about 4 sessions at level 13+) so I honestly do not understand why your adjustment would be considered an improvement.
PS: Also by changing it to only on initiative roll you are taking it away from use against environmental hazards and traps. There are tons of ways to take damage outside of initiative, with current Fiendish Vigor the warlock gets those 8 thp as soon as initiative ends so if they e.g. slip down a trapped staircase into a pit of spikes, that thp is there as a buffer.
A "visual disguise" is not the same as "You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any".
Disguise Kit. This pouch of cosmetics, hair dye, and small props lets you create disguises that change your physical appearance. Proficiency with this kit lets you add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to create a visual disguise.
Notice it does not say anything about clothing here either, you can't make robes tor a quality that would be worn by nobility using a disguise kit, you need to buy those regardless of whether you use a disguise kit or use alter self. A crown covered in diamonds and precious stones likewise isn't a "small prop" you could make for only 50 gp.
A disguise kit is not magic, it is no more effective than Hollywood make up. Anyone familiar with the person you are pretending to be it going to have an easy time telling you are not really that person.
I never said Disguise kit gives clothing, I did say that perhaps props could include padding and a corset, "props" is decided undefined to that degree. Now what I said alter self doesn't, which is why it's doing barely more than a disguise kit, alter self is little more than a disguise kit and the actor feat merged into a spell, which is part of the reason alter self is so bad, it literally makes a feat pointless because at least four different spell casting classes can do the same thing with a spell.
If you use Alter Self, you still need to go out and buy those same props, or you have to use the disguise self spell, or steal those clothes. In fact Alter Self doesn't even alter the clothes you are already wearing to your transformed size which should mean they rip or are baggy afterwards.
So there seems to be some emphasis on concentration vs non-concentration of disguise self vs alter self. Unless you did something like detect magic or are concentrating on a hex spell it really isn't going to matter. Second Alter Self's purpose should not be considered to replace disguise self it is a 2 in 1 invocation. It provides the ability to change yourself into anyone and also allow you to swim and breath underwater. It is 1 invocation that does disguise self and gift of the depths. It uses concentration, but in the scenarios you need it that may not be relevant. Beyond that there are enough good invocations that if some aren't "for you" than pick different ones. I have probably lost the thread and the conversation at this point.
(also the note earlier, yes you can get shield through MI, but you can't spam it, which I think is what people are complaining about with "not enough first or second level spells for combat")
Alter Self just isn't Gift of the Depths, nor should it be confused with it, you seemingly gain the same benefits but you do not. You can't alter your appearance and gain the water breathing at same time, you also can lose your water breathing too concentration, it's ultimately very VERY inferior to Gift of the Depths which is passive water breathing and can give water breathing to the whole party for 24 hours without any concentration. With Gift of the Depths, if you lose that concentration you're just dead, since you can't cast Alter Self underwater, it has a verbal component and you're drowning.
Obviously Alter Self and Disguise Self are meant to be used together, but that is two invocations, which early game is just not worth the invocations when there are just simply better invocations. You got Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Pact of Tome, Pact of Blade, Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Lessons of the First Ones, I dunno why we keep focusing on the underwhelming at-will invocations that don't cost a spell slot, they do very little for combat and RP isn't anywhere near properly designed in D&D to begin with for classes to have any semblance of balance in RP. A bard still basically out-does everybody since they can basically do everything in RP. Even with Alter Self, a bard is more likely to be able to trick their way into a castle and less likely to be discovered or arrested.
Again. Alter self pull sdouble. It doesn't do both at the same, but it covers both utility albiet slightly worse. If you want to disguise yourself pick mask. If you want to breathe under water pick gift. If you want to be able to both as needed and dont want to use 2 invocations for it that is what alter self is for.
And 2 additional tmp HP make a difference? At level 15, the difference between 8 thp and 10 thp is negligible, it's a rounding error (2% of your max hp). Whereas at level 1, the difference between 5 thp and 8 thp can be a whole attack's worth. Plus most parties play much much more at level 1-7 than at level 15+ (in our campaign where we made it to level 17 we played 6 months of the campaign at levels 1-7 and about 4 sessions at level 13+) so I honestly do not understand why your adjustment would be considered an improvement.
PS: Also by changing it to only on initiative roll you are taking it away from use against environmental hazards and traps. There are tons of ways to take damage outside of initiative, with current Fiendish Vigor the warlock gets those 8 thp as soon as initiative ends so if they e.g. slip down a trapped staircase into a pit of spikes, that thp is there as a buffer.
Maybe something as relatively simple as having Fiendish Vigour scale at 5/11/17, like cantrips do? Starting at 8 (or lower), and then getting a fixed amount bump at each advancement stage, as if being upcast? (ex, 6 at 1st level, 9 at 5th level, 12 at 11th level, and finally 15 at 17th level)
We've seen some scaling invocations already, what with Thirsting Blade's 11th-level advancement, and Eldritch Spear getting an ever increasing range bonus. Eldritch Smite is inherently scaling. I'm all for invocations that grow with your character, and would gladly accept them starting out weaker to help them stay relevant further along.
Is playing a Warlock a problem with the game mechanics or how the game mechanics are implemented at a table? Identifying the largest factor responsible for the problem helps to solve the problem.
Okay here is the 1/3 spellcaster I did for UA5, but updated to attempt to work with UA 7 design goals. Pact Gift is a new feature that gives you either Pact of the Blade or Pact of the Tome invocation. Pact Gift is a prerequisite to take any Pact of invocations. This is to stop people from using a feat to grab one of the former Pact Boons. Pact slots are gained at 2nd level with the Pact Magic feature. Pact Slots are no longer Spell slots per se. It is literally magical energy granted to you from your patron. They can be used to cast spells and for features that specifically name them. Thus they can’t be used by Sorcerers font of magic to become sorcerers points or any feature that only names spell slots. They could be used by a Sorcerer/Warlock to cast either their Sorcerer spells or their Warlock spells. Invocations would be reworded to mention both spell slots and pact slots. Pact of the Tome would no longer grant an additional spell slot and Book of Ancient Secrets would be an invocation again. Eldritch smite would continue to work only on Pact slots. Even with them already having low level ritual spells I would bring back Eldritch Sight and Beast Speech invocations. It should be up to the player if they would rather prepare the spell or have it as an invocation. There would be no benefit to do both, but having the option between the two is awesome imo. Additionally I would limit the amount short rest recharge of Pact Slots to either proficiency bonus times or half proficiency bonus times per long rest.
Warlock
Level
Class Features
Invocations
Cantrips
Spells Prepared
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
Pact Slots
Pact Slot Level
1st
Spellcasting, Pact Gift
1
2
2
2
-
-
-
-
-
2nd
Pact Magic
2
2
3
2
-
-
-
1
1st
3rd
Warlock Subclass
2
2
4
2
-
-
-
2
2nd
4th
ASI
2
3
5
3
-
-
-
2
2nd
5th
-
3
3
6
3
-
-
-
2
3rd
6th
Subclass Feature
3
3
7
3
-
-
-
2
3rd
7th
-
4
3
8
4
2
-
-
2
4th
8th
ASI
4
3
9
4
2
-
-
2
4th
9th
Contact Patron
5
3
10
4
2
-
-
2
5th
10th
Subclass Feature
5
4
10
4
3
-
-
2
5th
11th
Mystic Arcanum 6th level Spell
5
4
11
4
3
-
-
2
5th
12th
ASI
6
4
11
4
3
-
-
2
5th
13th
MA 7th level Spell
6
4
12
4
3
2
-
2
5th
14th
Subclass Feature
6
4
12
4
3
2
-
2
5th
15th
MA 8th level Spell
7
4
13
4
3
2
-
2
5th
16th
ASI
7
4
13
4
3
3
-
2
5th
17th
MA 9th level Spell
7
4
14
4
3
3
-
3
5th
18th
-
8
4
14
4
3
3
-
3
5th
19th
ASI
8
4
15
4
3
3
1
3
5th
20th
Eldritch Master
8
4
15
4
3
3
1
3
5th
If you wanted another option would be to give pact magic at level 1 like normal and start the 1/3 casting by giving spell casting at 3rd level as it is done for other subclasses that have 1/3 casting progression. I prefer the way I did it because it doesn’t feel like it came out of nowhere, but there is a story to tell with either path. My path tells the story of someone who already had magic but made a deal to gain more power than they naturally would have had. The other way tell the story of someone which no magic gaining power from another being and awakening their own magical power. Honestly with either you could also say the spell slots are power being granted from the patron as well. You are free to flavor the slots however you desire.
This table looks pretty grokkable to me (how did you make it?) and is roughly what I had in mind for 1/3 + Pact + Invocations. I think they're okay with Warlocks having both Blade and Tome now.
I’m horrible at using the forum tools. I made this on google spreadsheet then copy pasted it. Also with my set up a warlock would be able to take any invocations including both pact of tome and pact of blade but someone gaining invocations through the feat wouldn’t be able to take any of the “Pact of” invocations since those invocations would require the pact gift feature. Basically if you want those invocations you need to multiclass into warlock not just use a feat.
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At this point I feel like the complaint is "i cant cast shield and silvery barbs a half dozen times per day so warlock sucks".
We have ran the numbers, we have shown the invocations. I have played it in game at level 7. I did more leveled spell casting than anyone in that game. Still only used one slot.
Talked about alternate rest rules for games that dont really run the standard.
This warlock isn't perfect. There are spells missing on the list, there are invocations missing. Honestly, the 20th level capstone is kind of a bummer.
I would LIKE to see something juicy at level 5 probably 7/8 or 9 to encourage less warlock dip and mc out. But this isnt that bad and is definitely a huge step up.
The fact that martials can't do much outside of combat and yet casters can is another huge issue. The best ability scores for most things out of combat are Charisma, Wisdom and Intelligence, all spell casting Abilities. Constitution has basically nothing, Strength has athletics, dexterity has a few including slight of hand. But what classes can or can not do outside of combat isn't going to redress the issues that also exist within combat.
But to address this, again, in 5E, Warlock didn't even get ritual spells as a default, you'd have to go pact of the tome and book of ancient secrets to even start getting rituals, meanwhile wizard gets rituals from level 1. Having played both Wizard and Warlock in 5E, Wizard's rituals are way more useful than warlock having to spend invocations to get "at-wills". I'd be quiet happy to see Warlock lose the at-will spells, since most of them, aren't that good and the few that are, could just be added to the warlock spell list.
Warlock will be able to get shield via magic initiate with pact of the tome giving a 1st level slot, that is two casts a day without using warlock's pact magic spell slots.
that isn't the issue, altho for a 1st level spell, shield is overpowered, while spells like Witchbolt tend to be very underpowered, shield however gets no benefit from upcasting, witchbolt gets little while a spells like fireball or magic missile are actually still viable to be upcast to 5th level. Spells fundamentally aren't equal and not all spells upcast equally either, in fact it appears to WotC have dramatically reduced the levels of a lot of the "at will" spell invocations and removed the term "at will" from them in the UA, which should be evidence enough of how underpowered they were and I still believe them too be.
Ascendant Step, why not just get the fly spell? When do you need to levitate in battle? it requires concentration when there are better concentration spells, all you can use it for is to move up/down, and basically "walk" on a ceiling. Levitate is best used on hostile targets to lift them out of battle to begin with so the restriction to self makes it extremely lackluster. Fiendish Vigor, in my opinion it's lack of any scalability makes it weak, it should instead give CHA mod+PB temp HP on initiative roll and remove the spell casting bit entirely.
And this is all before you get into other invocations which are simply better, Agonizing Blast is almost required for near every warlock build, repelling blast too. For pact of the blade, thirsting blade and life drinker are near must have. For pact of the tome, Gift of the protectors which is basically a superior death ward (multiple targets, even if only works once/long rest), devil's sight... not sure why people are worried about at-will spells when there are non-spell invocations that simply do more and are better. Sure two of three of them add to RP, but RP is not made to be balanced in the first place, despite some more balance being needed to enable martials to have more tools/utility within RP/social interactions is needed.
So... 8 temporary hit points is terrible and too low, so you would change it to be 5 instead? Sorry but I really do not understand your argument here.
Yes you could always cast fly instead instead of self levitate. And, in fact, i took both on my playtest lock. Levitate, in this case, is for the Out of combat utility and mobility. So you dont have to use a slot to reach places easier. Fly is better, but it uses a slot.
Even when I am playing a druid, my highest level slots are reserved for combat while my lowest level slots are used either in short easy fights or, more likely, exploration and other out of combat utility. If I am level 8 i consider myself to have 5, maybe 6 because spike growth, combat spells for the day. The other 7 are largely considered utility. By level 9 it is up to 7 maybe 8.
At 5 it is 4 or 5, at 6 it is 5 or 6. By 7 it is 4 or 5. The same number of slots a lock is going to have after magical cunning and 1 short rest. Why am I comparing to druid. 1. Because I like druids and they are my most played caster besides locks. 2. Because like lock they have other features besides spells.
Why warlock is being compared to Wizard is beyond me. Wizards get almost no features besides subclass features and spells and, without invocations people want warlock to match wizard in spell casting? The only thing the wizard does?
Do people really love Repelling blast that much? Having seen it in action, it seems to me to be an incredibly annoying feature. EB is designed to synergize with Hex for single-target damage, so strategically you want to focus fire with the rest of the party and attack the same enemy they are attacking. But this means if you've got melee characters in the party you are repelling the enemies out of their threat range which depending on the situation can mean they can't attack that enemy effectively on their turn. But the enemy can just move back and attack that melee character again on the enemey's turn.
Because the fly spell costs a slot and you don't have a ton of those, but these aren't mutually exclusive either. You can easily get both if you need them. Levitate can raise you up out of reach of melee enemies which can be very helpful in battle, but also has tons of out of combat utility so you don't need to use your limited Pact Magic slots outside of combat. If you can't see why not using a slot to get across a river of lava before fighting a pack of demons is beneficial to the power of a Warlock then sorry, I think this discussion is over.
As for Master of Myriad Forms vs Mask of Many Faces, to be honest I'm shocked by how many people think an illusion is better than actually being the person you are impersonating. DMs must be being extremely permissive with Disguise Self cause RAW if you touch anything or anything touches you then everyone who can see you gets a check to see through your illusion, and if they touch you then they instantly recognize that it is an illusion and can see through it.
I can see the argument wherein Disguise Self will provide an outfit change, but Alter Self does not.
If you're at the point where you need to Levitate, things have almost certainly already gone wrong and it's a concentration spell. There is very few reasons to use it in combat. after all you can basically trap yourself in the air if you're not careful since you can only move up and down unless you have something to push against or pull on. It's basically a very limited form of distance, control. You need something around 15~20 foot high to move but you need nothing to exist 5~10 foot above you else you can't even float high enough in the first place. Which means you need a high ceiling or to be outside somewhere like a forest. Also since it's concentration, if you do get hit, you can fail the save and just instantly end out in the middle of a mob of creatures. Overall, I really do not rate the ascendant step invocation.
Myriad of Forms is more likely to pass an inspection but has other weaknesses, first off you can not alter your size or fundamental shape, this means a human can not impersonate a gnome or a gnome impersonate a human, additionally a human can not impersonate an aarakocra since while they are bipedal, they have wings which is not the same basic shape. So basically there is very little difference between Myriad of Forms and just using a disguise kit, is you don't need disguise kit proficiency and the actor feat, overall I believe the fact that a single 2nd level spell replaces a feat and a proficiency like that, is terrible but hardly a singular case of utility spells that give too much.
Disguise self allows you to alter your appearance by up to one foot. This means you could find somewhere to hide, where you can see over the top of a crate or a rock but another creature can see nothing back, as your appearance is one foot shorter, depending on your DM you could also do the reverse, where you stand behind total cover but make yourself appear 1 foot taller, so creatures attack your "head" but all shoots miss, depends on DM. Additionally Disguise self allows you to "change" your clothing, appearing like another person isn't just about physical looks but also about your clothes and other such features, if you use alter self to appear like another person, you either need to replicate their clothes, steal their clothes or use disguise self to pass off your clothes as theirs. Disguise self has it's own short fall, it does not pass a physical interaction.
The other two features of Alter Self, can also be dismissed, Natural Weapons are just weaker than eldritch blast, they are strength based attacks and Warlocks rarely have a good strength score. Aquatic Adaptation is weaker than Water Breathing, which you could get from Gift of the Depths instead, being able to make your entire party breath water is already good, being able to do so without fear that the first attack that hits you, could remove your ability to breath water is just substantially more safe.
Um.. no. Nobody who actually knows the Queen would confuse any of the actresses who have played the Queen for being the actual Queen regardless of how good their makeup was. Whereas If you Alter Self, you become completely indistinguishable from the actual Queen. You also sound exactly like the Queen -> Disguise Self and Disguise Kits don't change your voice so the moment you speak you'll give yourself away.
Using Alter Self you could walk into a palace as the king and command the servants and guards to do your bidding. Using a disguise kit you might be able to pass yourself off as a servant. Using Disguise Self you might be able to pass yourself off as a guard as long as you don't touch anyone/anything and nobody tries to touch you.
First off Quote Mine, quote it PROPERLY
I'll admit, that I missed the word 'difference' after the comma, but that post is unedited and we can see the actor feat mentioned. Note the Actor feat's ability of Mimicry. You sound exactly like the queen, also you do not auto-pass deceptions of being the Queen, people can still pick up mannerisms, or note issues in the speech patterns themselves, Actor's feat is actually needed for the advantage of deception or you'll probably get found out quiet quickly if you try to pass yourself off as a noble. Additionally, you're in damaged adventurer clothes/armor with no crown, big big give away that something is wrong.
Also what you infer the disguise kit does, is no where in source material:
There is literally no part in this that says you can not pass yourself off as nobility or royalty. You can insist that it might be the case but there is no RAW or RAI to infer any such limitation, there is no part that says you can't pass yourself off as a different race or sex of the same size. Now if that person is of a different size, you can not as easily pass that off but again, it isn't noted in the Disguise Kit that, that is actually a limitation, the props could include padding to make somebody appear fat or a corset to make people appear some what thinner. Height would be the only real issue here.
A "visual disguise" is not the same as "You decide what you look like, including your height, weight, facial features, sound of your voice, hair length, coloration, and distinguishing characteristics, if any".
Notice it does not say anything about clothing here either, you can't make robes tor a quality that would be worn by nobility using a disguise kit, you need to buy those regardless of whether you use a disguise kit or use alter self. A crown covered in diamonds and precious stones likewise isn't a "small prop" you could make for only 50 gp.
A disguise kit is not magic, it is no more effective than Hollywood make up. Anyone familiar with the person you are pretending to be it going to have an easy time telling you are not really that person.
So there seems to be some emphasis on concentration vs non-concentration of disguise self vs alter self. Unless you did something like detect magic or are concentrating on a hex spell it really isn't going to matter. Second Alter Self's purpose should not be considered to replace disguise self it is a 2 in 1 invocation. It provides the ability to change yourself into anyone and also allow you to swim and breath underwater. It is 1 invocation that does disguise self and gift of the depths. It uses concentration, but in the scenarios you need it that may not be relevant. Beyond that there are enough good invocations that if some aren't "for you" than pick different ones. I have probably lost the thread and the conversation at this point.
(also the note earlier, yes you can get shield through MI, but you can't spam it, which I think is what people are complaining about with "not enough first or second level spells for combat")
Assuming the player is maxing charisma it would break down as +5 from 1-3, +6 at @4, +7 from 5-7, +8 @8, +9 from 10-12, and +10 @ 13. Not really much change from the base, and I figure DM's would automatically assume the character refreshes their cast at the end of each encounter without needing to declare it each time unless there's some reason the Warlock wouldn't.
I never said Disguise kit gives clothing, I did say that perhaps props could include padding and a corset, "props" is decided undefined to that degree. Now what I said alter self doesn't, which is why it's doing barely more than a disguise kit, alter self is little more than a disguise kit and the actor feat merged into a spell, which is part of the reason alter self is so bad, it literally makes a feat pointless because at least four different spell casting classes can do the same thing with a spell.
If you use Alter Self, you still need to go out and buy those same props, or you have to use the disguise self spell, or steal those clothes. In fact Alter Self doesn't even alter the clothes you are already wearing to your transformed size which should mean they rip or are baggy afterwards.
Alter Self just isn't Gift of the Depths, nor should it be confused with it, you seemingly gain the same benefits but you do not. You can't alter your appearance and gain the water breathing at same time, you also can lose your water breathing too concentration, it's ultimately very VERY inferior to Gift of the Depths which is passive water breathing and can give water breathing to the whole party for 24 hours without any concentration. With Gift of the Depths, if you lose that concentration you're just dead, since you can't cast Alter Self underwater, it has a verbal component and you're drowning.
Obviously Alter Self and Disguise Self are meant to be used together, but that is two invocations, which early game is just not worth the invocations when there are just simply better invocations. You got Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Pact of Tome, Pact of Blade, Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Lessons of the First Ones, I dunno why we keep focusing on the underwhelming at-will invocations that don't cost a spell slot, they do very little for combat and RP isn't anywhere near properly designed in D&D to begin with for classes to have any semblance of balance in RP. A bard still basically out-does everybody since they can basically do everything in RP. Even with Alter Self, a bard is more likely to be able to trick their way into a castle and less likely to be discovered or arrested.
This.
It is only lower at levels 1-7, it matches at level 8 and is higher at level 9. The problem with Fiendish Vigor is it does not scale to level, by level 15, +8 temp HP ain't doing it any more while +8 temp HP at level 1 is more than you'll likely ever need. And yes, making it at initiative just removes the unnecessary step of a warlock remembering to say they cast it after every encounter.
And 2 additional tmp HP make a difference? At level 15, the difference between 8 thp and 10 thp is negligible, it's a rounding error (2% of your max hp). Whereas at level 1, the difference between 5 thp and 8 thp can be a whole attack's worth. Plus most parties play much much more at level 1-7 than at level 15+ (in our campaign where we made it to level 17 we played 6 months of the campaign at levels 1-7 and about 4 sessions at level 13+) so I honestly do not understand why your adjustment would be considered an improvement.
PS: Also by changing it to only on initiative roll you are taking it away from use against environmental hazards and traps. There are tons of ways to take damage outside of initiative, with current Fiendish Vigor the warlock gets those 8 thp as soon as initiative ends so if they e.g. slip down a trapped staircase into a pit of spikes, that thp is there as a buffer.
Again. Alter self pull sdouble. It doesn't do both at the same, but it covers both utility albiet slightly worse. If you want to disguise yourself pick mask. If you want to breathe under water pick gift. If you want to be able to both as needed and dont want to use 2 invocations for it that is what alter self is for.
Maybe something as relatively simple as having Fiendish Vigour scale at 5/11/17, like cantrips do? Starting at 8 (or lower), and then getting a fixed amount bump at each advancement stage, as if being upcast? (ex, 6 at 1st level, 9 at 5th level, 12 at 11th level, and finally 15 at 17th level)
We've seen some scaling invocations already, what with Thirsting Blade's 11th-level advancement, and Eldritch Spear getting an ever increasing range bonus. Eldritch Smite is inherently scaling. I'm all for invocations that grow with your character, and would gladly accept them starting out weaker to help them stay relevant further along.
Is playing a Warlock a problem with the game mechanics or how the game mechanics are implemented at a table? Identifying the largest factor responsible for the problem helps to solve the problem.
I’m horrible at using the forum tools. I made this on google spreadsheet then copy pasted it. Also with my set up a warlock would be able to take any invocations including both pact of tome and pact of blade but someone gaining invocations through the feat wouldn’t be able to take any of the “Pact of” invocations since those invocations would require the pact gift feature. Basically if you want those invocations you need to multiclass into warlock not just use a feat.