The idea that GOOlocks categorically cannot have a direct relationship is not outlined anywhere. The description only says that it “might” not be aware of you, which is arguably a valid dynamic for any pact, while at the same time not being at all relevant to my point that they are very clearly looking to a Faustian bargain as the archetypal example of the class.
And you absolutely can do what you describe; one can easily hit 16 in two stats after race/background bonuses in point-buy without dumping any stats below 10. Heck, you can even dip into or out of Wizard if you want for the premise. Now, whichever side you don’t wish to level as much will lag 5-10% in casting oomph, but both mechanically and thematically that’s what happens when you diversify instead of specialize.
It is an option that is heavily advertised by the class description, which makes it relevant. We're not talking about say, a druid who sweet talks the fey into giving them nature powers to explain why they cast with CHA. The idea that a warlock doesn't get their power through a purely transactional relationship is in the class description. It's a way to play the warlock that is actively encouraged by the text. This, to me, makes it worth considering a new mechanic to better support that style of play.
As for dumping all your spare attribute points into a dump stat so you can play a smart warlock... That's not... Great advice, to be honest. A player shouldn't need to cripple their mechanical build to support a roleplay that the game itself tells you is a valid interpretation of the class.
The idea that GOOlocks categorically cannot have a direct relationship is not outlined anywhere. The description only says that it “might” not be aware of you, which is arguably a valid dynamic for any pact, while at the same time not being at all relevant to my point that they are very clearly looking to a Faustian bargain as the archetypal example of the class.
And you absolutely can do what you describe; one can easily hit 16 in two stats after race/background bonuses in point-buy without dumping any stats below 10. Heck, you can even dip into or out of Wizard if you want for the premise. Now, whichever side you don’t wish to level as much will lag 5-10% in casting oomph, but both mechanically and thematically that’s what happens when you diversify instead of specialize.
It is an option that is heavily advertised by the class description, which makes it relevant. We're not talking about say, a druid who sweet talks the fey into giving them nature powers to explain why they cast with CHA. The idea that a warlock doesn't get their power through a purely transactional relationship is in the class description. It's a way to play the warlock that is actively encouraged by the text. This, to me, makes it worth considering a new mechanic to better support that style of play.
As for dumping all your spare attribute points into a dump stat so you can play a smart warlock... That's not... Great advice, to be honest. A player shouldn't need to cripple their mechanical build to support a roleplay that the game itself tells you is a valid interpretation of the class.
To add to this. even if you did sweet talk a godlike being as a level 0 nobody what in the class description implies the casting of their spells implies its powered by charisma. If I sweet talk someone into giving me a two handed sword I still need to use strength to swing it. If you sweet talk a wizard into being your mentor you still need intelligence to cast the spells. For intelligence its a much closer link with descriptions like this. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power. It does not say their force of personality fuels powers granted from fey nobles etc. They are drawing on ancient knowledge and piecing together arcane secrets to form their power. That screams intelligence to me. Even if we grant charisma is how a pact is formed because you can actually persuade or con these beings enough to sway them into giving you power. The descriptions in the class for how that power is used however it happens to be gained seems to be intelligence based. And most of the rest of the class seems to be around intelligence based descriptors.
The description of an obsessed arcanist is what drew me and I suspect many players to the class only to be disappointed its a face class.
Psyren, sorry if you feel like I was singling you out as against Charisma as a Warlock casting stat, but you did say in a previous post (which I quoted), "No, it doesn't make sense to use a different score. Their power comes from knowledge." Maybe you didn't mean for that statement to sound as sweeping as it did to me, and I certainly may have forgotten other points you have made through the discussion, so yet again I am sorry if I misrepresented your stance.
I hope (but am not entirely sure) that the Study Action really will be something that boosts the usefulness of Intelligence in actual play, and thus affect how people distribute their ability scores.
Crzyhawk, thank you for your measured response. The issue of primary ability scores and multiclassing is a difficult one. I'd certainly agree that the abundance of Charisma-based classes makes some combinations too easy and abusable. However, I am wary that Warlock multiclassing with the Wizard in particular, may have problems since it seems very many people are of the opinion that the latter is already the most powerful class in the game without that possible advantage. I'm not deeply into theorycrafting, so this fear may be unfounded, and I hope that it is.
That's something to consider...but wizard gets very little from Warlock. With the new changes, an int eldritch blast is no threat because it scales on warlock level. There are very few warlock only spells worth poaching for the arcane caster with the biggest pool of available spells in the game, challenged only by the charisma-based divine soul sorcerer. Armor can already be poached from Artificer. And, remember, the wizard gives up signature spells for...whatever warlock is providing. I don't personally see any wizards watering themselves down and delaying spell progression with warlock. Bladesinger? Fair, but I'd argue a high level BS in melee is wasting his potential as a spellcaster.
The big problem on the other hand are melees. Paladin and to a lesser extent bards gain a lot by being able to use their caster stat as their melee attack stat as their melee attack stat for a 1 level dip in warlock. Sorcs aren't able to do their disgusting level of eldritch blast spam/hex stacking anymore, so that's less of a problem. Paladins though, cranking up their auras AND their melee attack stats at the same time is problematic. They and melee bards are balanced to an extent by requiring multiple stat dependencies. A single level dip into warlock solves that issue. And what do they give up?
Bard:
Superior Inspiration
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use.
I'll make that trade every day and twice on gameday.
Paladin: Oath feature. This will depend on your oath value wise. But, generally using your weapon attacks is going to happen every round of the game. As a combat focused player? I'm probably making that trade.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Just for the record, I never said I was against multiclassing, just that it is an issue that should also be considered along with the flexible stat for Warlocks. Both Yurei and Psyren have provided sound reasoning for why it really shouldn't be a concern for Wizard/Warlock combos, and at least I am satisfied by this.
If someone could explain why Sorlock is so evil aside from Coffeelock, I’d appreciate it. And what’s so bad about a Warlock dip on a Paladin. A dip for Paladin gives them maybe one or two extra 1st level smites a day, and Sorlock suffers the same progression setback as Wizards. The only examples of “abuse” of a dip for either comes from a Sorcerer feature which I think they’re already patching in 1D&D or a specific Warlock subclass feature for Paladins (Hex Warrior). Even if we weren’t getting a system overhaul fairly soon, one is a case of making an errata to cover the interaction, and the other is honestly just a case of live and learn on subclass features. Yes, Paladins and gish Bards can dip Warlock to be slightly less MAD. Considering how many people go on about how unfair and limiting it is that some classes are MAD in the first place, it honestly seems up for debate if that’s even really a bad thing. Is there something else I’m missing here?
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Just for the record, I never said I was against multiclassing, just that it is an issue that should also be considered along with the flexible stat for Warlocks. Both Yurei and Psyren have provided sound reasoning for why it really shouldn't be a concern for Wizard/Warlock combos, and at least I am satisfied by this.
If someone could explain why Sorlock is so evil aside from Coffeelock, I’d appreciate it. And what’s so bad about a Warlock dip on a Paladin. A dip for Paladin gives them maybe one or two extra 1st level smites a day, and Sorlock suffers the same progression setback as Wizards. The only examples of “abuse” of a dip for either comes from a Sorcerer feature which I think they’re already patching in 1D&D or a specific Warlock subclass feature for Paladins (Hex Warrior). Even if we weren’t getting a system overhaul fairly soon, one is a case of making an errata to cover the interaction, and the other is honestly just a case of live and learn on subclass features. Yes, Paladins and gish Bards can dip Warlock to be slightly less MAD. Considering how many people go on about how unfair and limiting it is that some classes are MAD in the first place, it honestly seems up for debate if that’s even really a bad thing. Is there something else I’m missing here?
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use.
I'll make that trade every day and twice on gameday.
What the Bardlock is giving up isn't just the capstone - it's undelayed spell progression at every level from 2-19. They're also going Valor or Swords, which are ultimately weaker than Lore, Eloquence, Creation, and nuGlamor. In other words, Bardlocks aren't problematic - they're fine.
Now for Paladin I agree, there currently isn't enough tradeoff there, but that's because Blade Pact is overtuned / works with every weapon under the sun currently. It should really just be 1H weapons unless you either take IPW or Hexblade - that way, Paladins who want to go with polearms either need to be MAD or they need to go for even more Warlock levels and thus delay their paladin features further.
Honestly, Blade Pact swapping the weapon to CHA is a nice feather but not a game-changer. Paladins are almost inevitably going to go heavy armor, so they already need to invest in 15 STR regardless of what their attack stat is. Using point buy to start at 16 CHA as well, this could hypothetically free up ASI's from level 12 on for feats, CON, or secondary stats, but much like Monks and Rangers, there's really not a pressing need to take the casting stat past 16 to make the class perform well. Spell slot priority is given to Divine Smite, and secondary priority usually goes to buffs that don't depend on the casting stat. The main notable effect is that it makes it easier to get an extra +2 on Aura of Protection, but while the extra 10% to save odds is nice, it's not really paradigm shifting. Basically I agree that they're not trading away much, but imo performance-wise they're not gaining a ton either; slightly better DC that's rarely used, slightly better saves, and honestly about the same stat/feat flexibility for class performance as if they leveled STR to 20 while leaving CHA at 16. I don't think Pact of Blade needs to be nerfed because of this scenario.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
Just for the record, I never said I was against multiclassing, just that it is an issue that should also be considered along with the flexible stat for Warlocks. Both Yurei and Psyren have provided sound reasoning for why it really shouldn't be a concern for Wizard/Warlock combos, and at least I am satisfied by this.
If someone could explain why Sorlock is so evil aside from Coffeelock, I’d appreciate it. And what’s so bad about a Warlock dip on a Paladin. A dip for Paladin gives them maybe one or two extra 1st level smites a day, and Sorlock suffers the same progression setback as Wizards. The only examples of “abuse” of a dip for either comes from a Sorcerer feature which I think they’re already patching in 1D&D or a specific Warlock subclass feature for Paladins (Hex Warrior). Even if we weren’t getting a system overhaul fairly soon, one is a case of making an errata to cover the interaction, and the other is honestly just a case of live and learn on subclass features. Yes, Paladins and gish Bards can dip Warlock to be slightly less MAD. Considering how many people go on about how unfair and limiting it is that some classes are MAD in the first place, it honestly seems up for debate if that’s even really a bad thing. Is there something else I’m missing here?
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
FYI monsters have a better chance of succeeding against a saving throw, that having you miss with an attack roll (roughly 15% difference) so when you account for that plus the fact that attack rolls can crit and saving throw spells cannot then Hex + EB on a sorlock deals better damage than Disintegrate and only costs the equivalent of 2x 1st level spells so they can do it all day long at the level they would be able to cast Disintegrate. Since "Dead" is the best condition, Hex + quickened EB is generally the best choice for a sorlock to make unless they can get at least 4 enemies in an AoE.
Also in the latest UA they rolled back having EB scale with warlock levels and have returning it to the 2014 version.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
In OneD&D the scaling for Eldritch Blast is going to be tied to Warlock level, not class level like other cantrips. Currently, a Sorcerer would still need a 2 level dip (permanently delaying higher level spell access) in order to use EB as well as a Warlock since it works best when boosted via invocations. 3d10 at 11th level isn't anywhere near as good as 3d10+15 AND pushing the enemy into an area effect spell while also reducing their movement.
Warlock multi-classing shenanigans are primarily limited to characters that use weapons and spells in concert, largely due to bladelocks being more front end loaded than the ranger. I think part of the reason for a 3rd attack at lvl 11 is to encourage more single class bladelocks rather than seeing the standard as running to some other class. Although I think the issue here is less with the paladin and bard and more with the warlock itself. The class features of either a paladin or bard look a LOT more attractive than the gully dwarf slog Warlocks go through from levels 2 through 10.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
in this context, i think "spend more time spamming EB" refers to keeping up hex between battles. i don't have any experience whatsoever with high level sorcerers, but i do follow the leap that a high level sorc might have better things to do with their concentration. a high level warlock too, come to think of it. but, hey, maybe the campaign has been 20 levels of polite and uncomplicated one-at-a-time monsters on a conveyor belt. can't lose focus on those efficiency metrics just before retirement.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
Sorlock is considered a 'problem' by mechanics-hating thespians because:
A.) any multiclass, for any reason, is considered Problematic by mechanics-hating thespians. Even combinations that have natural narrative synergy, such as Laudna's Shadow sorceress/Undead warlock combination or a Storm sorceress/Genie warlock mix. Hell, the latter warlock patron has class features that actiovely state "you begin to take on some of the nature of your patron"; how does that not allow a natural blending of Djinni/Madrid Genielock and Storm sorcery?
B.) Even without full Coffeelock nonsense, the sorceress can use Pact Magic slots as a quick refresh for their sorcery points during a short rest and gain improved at-will damage through Agonizing Doink, alongside whatever subclass features they gain from the warlock's objectively stronger subclasses compared to sorcery. Situations like that, where the mechanics of one class naturally shore up one of the weaknesses of another class in a way that makes for a more logical, effective, and capable character, are sheerest poison to mechanics-hating thespians that thrive on broken, barely-functional characters so riddled with flaws it's amazing they haven't tripped over their own trauma, fallen down a pit, and died.
It was said earlier that people who focus on mechanically effective characters "naturally" care less about roleplaying, character growth, and narrative arcs, often to the point of not caring at all. This has been the exact opposite of my experience - the people most invested in understanding and exploring the game's mechanics are also the ones most invested in exploring the game's narrative side. People who go out of their way to grasp the game's mechanical systems as thoroughly as they're able can manipulate those systems to produce the result they want, which is almost never fishing for the most numerically potent mixture they can find but instead knowing how to execute unusual character concepts in ways that aren't a drag on the party. Or assembling a character that poses interesting questions the table can then enjoy finding the answers to.
Nobody gives a shit what the straight-classed wizard is/does, everybody knows exactly who that character is from the moment the game starts. Straight wizards aren't allowed to have interesting characterizations because as AoR has been insisting this whole thread, wizards are all required to be studious, book-smart, everything-else-dumb Magic Nerds who hate adventuring and constantly pine for civilization. We've all seen/played with/played as that idiot. Mingle the wizard and warlock classes, though? Well, now you have to ask which came first - did the character study magic in the ways of a wizard only to realize they didn't have the patience to go far on this route and turn their research towards finding a shortcut? Did they start as a warlock only to realize the power wasn't worth the price and use their experience to goad them into the focused discipline they lacked before? Or is their warlock patron merely another part of their study of the arcane, delving into gifts ordinary mortals - even wizardly-inclined ones - never gain in an attempt to understand those gifts and perhaps even learn how to replicate them through the arcane arts mortals do have? Or, or, is one of the gifts their patron gave them the ability to more easily grasp and understand the arcane, giving them a magical Intelligence boost so they could eclipse unboosted students of the arcane?
Plenty of fascinating questions you could ask...if warlocks weren't as required to be charismatic oblivious morons as wizards are required to be nerdy noodle-armed wieners completely unsuited to the rigors of adventuring.
It was said earlier that people who focus on mechanically effective characters "naturally" care less about roleplaying, character growth, and narrative arcs, often to the point of not caring at all. This has been the exact opposite of my experience - the people most invested in understanding and exploring the game's mechanics are also the ones most invested in exploring the game's narrative side. People who go out of their way to grasp the game's mechanical systems as thoroughly as they're able can manipulate those systems to produce the result they want, which is almost never fishing for the most numerically potent mixture they can find but instead knowing how to execute unusual character concepts in ways that aren't a drag on the party. Or assembling a character that poses interesting questions the table can then enjoy finding the answers to.
We're simply comparing personal experience and perceptions, really. I have zero problems believing you re: your experiences with optimizers/min maxers. I'm glad that it's been positive and they've cared just as much about the RP aspect of the game as the mechanical side. That's ideal, really.
My experience has been the opposite. A very narrow and intense focus on mechanics and optimization, with only token efforts at RP. The folks I've known who are most invested in the game's mechanics are mostly concerned with the tactical aspects of the game; all of their characters feel the same, regardless of class or ancestry. A dwarven wizard doesn't feel any different from a half-orc ranger; the differences are purely mechanical or abilities, not in how they have the character make decisions, interact with others, or develop as the game goes along.
BTW, I'm not a wanna thespian and don't ask my players to be. I do want the players to make an effort to inject each character with distinct and meaningful personality, expressed mainly by the choices they make in the game, not by silly voices or grandstanding at the table. I'm certainly no aspiring voice actor (or actor of any other kind) - but I do strive to give personality to my campaign world, especially through the descriptions, words, and choices of the NPCs.
And really, the biggest issue with optimization/min maxing is what other posters have said: when it's just one or two people in the party, which thereby throws off game balance a LOT.
in this context, i think "spend more time spamming EB" refers to keeping up hex between battles. i don't have any experience whatsoever with high level sorcerers, but i do follow the leap that a high level sorc might have better things to do with their concentration. a high level warlock too, come to think of it.
Do they though? That hasn't been my experience with sorlocks. In an on-and-off pick up game we play we have a Sorlock and from level 3-15 they used Hex + EB spam 95% of their turns, and handily did more damage than any other character in the party unless the paladin was lucky enough to get a critical hit. The only other spells they cast were: Shield (all the time), Absorb Elements (occasionally), Haste (once or twice), Dimension Door (a couple times), Fly (once, out-of-combat), Counterspell (a few of times), Banishment (once), Misty Step (a few times). They had Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Wall of Force, and other good spells but they never ever used them. Now they've made it to level 16 their new go-to combo is Draconic Transformation + EB spam, instead of Hex + EB spam.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
Yes, because Sorcerers have more alternative options to spend their Action and Bonus Action on. Particularly as at most levels you’ll burn through SP pretty quickly if you’re constantly using Quickened.
Just for the record, I never said I was against multiclassing, just that it is an issue that should also be considered along with the flexible stat for Warlocks. Both Yurei and Psyren have provided sound reasoning for why it really shouldn't be a concern for Wizard/Warlock combos, and at least I am satisfied by this.
If someone could explain why Sorlock is so evil aside from Coffeelock, I’d appreciate it. And what’s so bad about a Warlock dip on a Paladin. A dip for Paladin gives them maybe one or two extra 1st level smites a day, and Sorlock suffers the same progression setback as Wizards. The only examples of “abuse” of a dip for either comes from a Sorcerer feature which I think they’re already patching in 1D&D or a specific Warlock subclass feature for Paladins (Hex Warrior). Even if we weren’t getting a system overhaul fairly soon, one is a case of making an errata to cover the interaction, and the other is honestly just a case of live and learn on subclass features. Yes, Paladins and gish Bards can dip Warlock to be slightly less MAD. Considering how many people go on about how unfair and limiting it is that some classes are MAD in the first place, it honestly seems up for debate if that’s even really a bad thing. Is there something else I’m missing here?
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
FYI monsters have a better chance of succeeding against a saving throw, that having you miss with an attack roll (roughly 15% difference) so when you account for that plus the fact that attack rolls can crit and saving throw spells cannot then Hex + EB on a sorlock deals better damage than Disintegrate and only costs the equivalent of 2x 1st level spells so they can do it all day long at the level they would be able to cast Disintegrate. Since "Dead" is the best condition, Hex + quickened EB is generally the best choice for a sorlock to make unless they can get at least 4 enemies in an AoE.
Also in the latest UA they rolled back having EB scale with warlock levels and have returning it to the 2014 version.
You did see my part about using the Bonus Action for other things too, right? I don’t have the time to crunch exact numbers atm, but the point stands that there’s other ways for a Sorc to hit big numbers without delaying spell progression to dip Warlock and lock themselves into a single move.
We're simply comparing personal experience and perceptions, really. I have zero problems believing you re: your experiences with optimizers/min maxers. I'm glad that it's been positive and they've cared just as much about the RP aspect of the game as the mechanical side. That's ideal, really.
My experience has been the opposite. A very narrow and intense focus on mechanics and optimization, with only token efforts at RP. The folks I've known who are most invested in the game's mechanics are mostly concerned with the tactical aspects of the game; all of their characters feel the same, regardless of class or ancestry. A dwarven wizard doesn't feel any different from a half-orc ranger; the differences are purely mechanical or abilities, not in how they have the character make decisions, interact with others, or develop as the game goes along.
I don't doubt at all that your experience is as genuine as mine is. I mostly brought it up because I know a lot of people assume your experience is the default/expected/only reason to be engaged with the game's mechanics. At my table(s), people know the rules very well and use that knowledge to 1.) create mechanically interesting characters that mesh with interesting and unusual narratives, and 2.) know when, how, and why to selectively ignore rules to extract maximum engagement and awesomeness from the game. Heh, it's like they always say about painting and Picasso - Picasso was a master painter before he started breaking all the rules of painting, so he knew which rules he was breaking, why he was doing it, and what the end result would be. It's that intentionality I wish we could see more of in the game, people knowing precisely what they're doing and why they're doing it.
BTW, I'm not a wanna thespian and don't ask my players to be. I do want the players to make an effort to inject each character with distinct and meaningful personality, expressed mainly by the choices they make in the game, not by silly voices or grandstanding at the table. I'm certainly no aspiring voice actor (or actor of any other kind) - but I do strive to give personality to my campaign world, especially through the descriptions, words, and choices of the NPCs.
And really, the biggest issue with optimization/min maxing is what other posters have said: when it's just one or two people in the party, which thereby throws off game balance a LOT.
I like silly voices and grandstanding at the table. Putting on a performance for your fellow players can be a great way to enhance the D&D experience; my table's most memorable characters have mated an outlandish voice/persona to an effective mechanical build and interesting narrative decisions. It's by no means required, of course, someone can easily have an engaging and meaningful game of D&D told entirely in normal-voice third person, but I find it quite enjoyable to affect an accent and speak in my character's voice.
My problem is with people who think D&D is an Arte Forme (specifically with extra E's for added pretentiousness), that the purpose of the game is to be a Study of the Human State of Weakness, Vulnerability, and Pathos, and who are trying to turn the game into a Byronic tragedy instead of a fun game about adventuring in a fantasy land. People who're the ideological opposite of the Powergaming Math Munchkin and who are just as bad for D&D, but who often hold themselves up as the purest, truest, most ardent and proper enjoyers of the hobby and a standard of play to which everyone else should aspire. Which, let's be real: nobody else likes Bohemian Failure Monkeys.
It's one thing to make a decision you-the-player know is poor because it's something your character would do in the heat of a tense or difficult moment. It's quite another entirely to make a character whose sole and entire goal is to make nothing but poor decisions every single session until the TPK hits because you think a party flaming out and dying as ignoble failures is a more artistic story than adventuring in a fantasy land.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
Yes, because Sorcerers have more alternative options to spend their Action and Bonus Action on. Particularly as at most levels you’ll burn through SP pretty quickly if you’re constantly using Quickened.
Just for the record, I never said I was against multiclassing, just that it is an issue that should also be considered along with the flexible stat for Warlocks. Both Yurei and Psyren have provided sound reasoning for why it really shouldn't be a concern for Wizard/Warlock combos, and at least I am satisfied by this.
If someone could explain why Sorlock is so evil aside from Coffeelock, I’d appreciate it. And what’s so bad about a Warlock dip on a Paladin. A dip for Paladin gives them maybe one or two extra 1st level smites a day, and Sorlock suffers the same progression setback as Wizards. The only examples of “abuse” of a dip for either comes from a Sorcerer feature which I think they’re already patching in 1D&D or a specific Warlock subclass feature for Paladins (Hex Warrior). Even if we weren’t getting a system overhaul fairly soon, one is a case of making an errata to cover the interaction, and the other is honestly just a case of live and learn on subclass features. Yes, Paladins and gish Bards can dip Warlock to be slightly less MAD. Considering how many people go on about how unfair and limiting it is that some classes are MAD in the first place, it honestly seems up for debate if that’s even really a bad thing. Is there something else I’m missing here?
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
FYI monsters have a better chance of succeeding against a saving throw, that having you miss with an attack roll (roughly 15% difference) so when you account for that plus the fact that attack rolls can crit and saving throw spells cannot then Hex + EB on a sorlock deals better damage than Disintegrate and only costs the equivalent of 2x 1st level spells so they can do it all day long at the level they would be able to cast Disintegrate. Since "Dead" is the best condition, Hex + quickened EB is generally the best choice for a sorlock to make unless they can get at least 4 enemies in an AoE.
Also in the latest UA they rolled back having EB scale with warlock levels and have returning it to the 2014 version.
You did see my part about using the Bonus Action for other things too, right? I don’t have the time to crunch exact numbers atm, but the point stands that there’s other ways for a Sorc to hit big numbers without delaying spell progression to dip Warlock and lock themselves into a single move.
Sorcerers don't have that many ways to use bonus actions outside quickened, so yeah I guess they can quicken the fireball and then eldritch blast. which may be better than 2 eldritch blasts. But if focused on on EB spam they wont run out of metamagic points as they can convert spells to metamagic points and most tables just don't have enough encounters for them to run out.
End result, yeah I can see why it could be a issue at some tables on the mechanical side now.
Edit to add and I can see how a warlock at the table may feel sort of screwed their gimmick is being done better by someone who dipped in. So again I hope they roll back to eldritch blast being tied to class level. Which along with flexible casting stat I mentioned in the play test feedback.
It was said earlier that people who focus on mechanically effective characters "naturally" care less about roleplaying, character growth, and narrative arcs, often to the point of not caring at all. This has been the exact opposite of my experience - the people most invested in understanding and exploring the game's mechanics are also the ones most invested in exploring the game's narrative side. People who go out of their way to grasp the game's mechanical systems as thoroughly as they're able can manipulate those systems to produce the result they want, which is almost never fishing for the most numerically potent mixture they can find but instead knowing how to execute unusual character concepts in ways that aren't a drag on the party. Or assembling a character that poses interesting questions the table can then enjoy finding the answers to.
We're simply comparing personal experience and perceptions, really. I have zero problems believing you re: your experiences with optimizers/min maxers. I'm glad that it's been positive and they've cared just as much about the RP aspect of the game as the mechanical side. That's ideal, really.
My experience has been the opposite. A very narrow and intense focus on mechanics and optimization, with only token efforts at RP. The folks I've known who are most invested in the game's mechanics are mostly concerned with the tactical aspects of the game; all of their characters feel the same, regardless of class or ancestry. A dwarven wizard doesn't feel any different from a half-orc ranger; the differences are purely mechanical or abilities, not in how they have the character make decisions, interact with others, or develop as the game goes along.
BTW, I'm not a wanna thespian and don't ask my players to be. I do want the players to make an effort to inject each character with distinct and meaningful personality, expressed mainly by the choices they make in the game, not by silly voices or grandstanding at the table. I'm certainly no aspiring voice actor (or actor of any other kind) - but I do strive to give personality to my campaign world, especially through the descriptions, words, and choices of the NPCs.
And really, the biggest issue with optimization/min maxing is what other posters have said: when it's just one or two people in the party, which thereby throws off game balance a LOT.
At my table the one optimizer who now is not with us as having kids ate into his free time role played fine. But him being that much better than the rest of the table both reduced the fun of the other players and made it a royal pain in the ass to balance an encounter for me. If I pushed things hard enough to challenge him without just focusing on him to a point it seemed like I was targeting him the rest of the party got stomped, if I didn't he rolled the fight like it was nothing.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
Yes, because Sorcerers have more alternative options to spend their Action and Bonus Action on. Particularly as at most levels you’ll burn through SP pretty quickly if you’re constantly using Quickened.
Just for the record, I never said I was against multiclassing, just that it is an issue that should also be considered along with the flexible stat for Warlocks. Both Yurei and Psyren have provided sound reasoning for why it really shouldn't be a concern for Wizard/Warlock combos, and at least I am satisfied by this.
If someone could explain why Sorlock is so evil aside from Coffeelock, I’d appreciate it. And what’s so bad about a Warlock dip on a Paladin. A dip for Paladin gives them maybe one or two extra 1st level smites a day, and Sorlock suffers the same progression setback as Wizards. The only examples of “abuse” of a dip for either comes from a Sorcerer feature which I think they’re already patching in 1D&D or a specific Warlock subclass feature for Paladins (Hex Warrior). Even if we weren’t getting a system overhaul fairly soon, one is a case of making an errata to cover the interaction, and the other is honestly just a case of live and learn on subclass features. Yes, Paladins and gish Bards can dip Warlock to be slightly less MAD. Considering how many people go on about how unfair and limiting it is that some classes are MAD in the first place, it honestly seems up for debate if that’s even really a bad thing. Is there something else I’m missing here?
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
FYI monsters have a better chance of succeeding against a saving throw, that having you miss with an attack roll (roughly 15% difference) so when you account for that plus the fact that attack rolls can crit and saving throw spells cannot then Hex + EB on a sorlock deals better damage than Disintegrate and only costs the equivalent of 2x 1st level spells so they can do it all day long at the level they would be able to cast Disintegrate. Since "Dead" is the best condition, Hex + quickened EB is generally the best choice for a sorlock to make unless they can get at least 4 enemies in an AoE.
Also in the latest UA they rolled back having EB scale with warlock levels and have returning it to the 2014 version.
You did see my part about using the Bonus Action for other things too, right? I don’t have the time to crunch exact numbers atm, but the point stands that there’s other ways for a Sorc to hit big numbers without delaying spell progression to dip Warlock and lock themselves into a single move.
Sorcerers don't have that many ways to use bonus actions outside quickened, so yeah I guess they can quicken the fireball and then eldritch blast. which may be better than 2 eldritch blasts. But if focused on on EB spam they wont run out of metamagic points as they can convert spells to metamagic points and most tables just don't have enough encounters for them to run out.
End result, yeah I can see why it could be a issue at some tables on the mechanical side now.
There’s quite a few spells that give you some form of bonus action attack, so they have plenty. Regardless, this hypothetical combo is not a problem, just a very stale way to achieve the typical caster performance.
Sorlock is considered a 'problem' by mechanics-hating thespians because:
A.) any multiclass, for any reason, is considered Problematic by mechanics-hating thespians. Even combinations that have natural narrative synergy, such as Laudna's Shadow sorceress/Undead warlock combination or a Storm sorceress/Genie warlock mix. Hell, the latter warlock patron has class features that actiovely state "you begin to take on some of the nature of your patron"; how does that not allow a natural blending of Djinni/Madrid Genielock and Storm sorcery?
Multi classing in itself is not a issue, its when a simple dip or easy choice drastically alters the balance of the game which can reduce the fun of others at the table and make it harder to DM for. Like I said before optimizing and mechanic loving is fine, but the game should be designed so a optimized character is better than a non optimized one but not by too much. They should mechanically feel like they fit in the same table/party still. I think its fine if someone intentionally makes a bad character not fitting in with a optimized character balance wise but a fairly straight build should fit in with either.
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It is an option that is heavily advertised by the class description, which makes it relevant. We're not talking about say, a druid who sweet talks the fey into giving them nature powers to explain why they cast with CHA. The idea that a warlock doesn't get their power through a purely transactional relationship is in the class description. It's a way to play the warlock that is actively encouraged by the text. This, to me, makes it worth considering a new mechanic to better support that style of play.
As for dumping all your spare attribute points into a dump stat so you can play a smart warlock... That's not... Great advice, to be honest. A player shouldn't need to cripple their mechanical build to support a roleplay that the game itself tells you is a valid interpretation of the class.
To add to this. even if you did sweet talk a godlike being as a level 0 nobody what in the class description implies the casting of their spells implies its powered by charisma. If I sweet talk someone into giving me a two handed sword I still need to use strength to swing it. If you sweet talk a wizard into being your mentor you still need intelligence to cast the spells. For intelligence its a much closer link with descriptions like this. Drawing on the ancient knowledge of beings such as fey nobles, demons, devils, hags, and alien entities of the Far Realm, warlocks piece together arcane secrets to bolster their own power. It does not say their force of personality fuels powers granted from fey nobles etc. They are drawing on ancient knowledge and piecing together arcane secrets to form their power. That screams intelligence to me. Even if we grant charisma is how a pact is formed because you can actually persuade or con these beings enough to sway them into giving you power. The descriptions in the class for how that power is used however it happens to be gained seems to be intelligence based. And most of the rest of the class seems to be around intelligence based descriptors.
The description of an obsessed arcanist is what drew me and I suspect many players to the class only to be disappointed its a face class.
That's something to consider...but wizard gets very little from Warlock. With the new changes, an int eldritch blast is no threat because it scales on warlock level. There are very few warlock only spells worth poaching for the arcane caster with the biggest pool of available spells in the game, challenged only by the charisma-based divine soul sorcerer. Armor can already be poached from Artificer. And, remember, the wizard gives up signature spells for...whatever warlock is providing. I don't personally see any wizards watering themselves down and delaying spell progression with warlock. Bladesinger? Fair, but I'd argue a high level BS in melee is wasting his potential as a spellcaster.
The big problem on the other hand are melees. Paladin and to a lesser extent bards gain a lot by being able to use their caster stat as their melee attack stat as their melee attack stat for a 1 level dip in warlock. Sorcs aren't able to do their disgusting level of eldritch blast spam/hex stacking anymore, so that's less of a problem. Paladins though, cranking up their auras AND their melee attack stats at the same time is problematic. They and melee bards are balanced to an extent by requiring multiple stat dependencies. A single level dip into warlock solves that issue. And what do they give up?
Bard:
Superior Inspiration
At 20th level, when you roll initiative and have no uses of Bardic Inspiration left, you regain one use.
I'll make that trade every day and twice on gameday.
Paladin: Oath feature. This will depend on your oath value wise. But, generally using your weapon attacks is going to happen every round of the game. As a combat focused player? I'm probably making that trade.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sorlock won't be so bad with the new updates to warlock's eldritch blast and hex.
What it currently has is hex tiggers every time it hits. Eldritch blast that scales on caster level rather than warlock level...so a 20th level sorlock is pumping 4 bolts per round, each triggering hex if they hit. Then the spend a sorc point and as a bonus action, quicken the spell and cast it again, for a total of 8 bolts/round and 8 potential hex taps. Then they spend their warlock slots that regen on a short rest to regen their sorc points so they don't run out. They can use their sorc slots too if they somehow manage to run out.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
They can literally get the same spell combo with Magic Initiate, though. Assuming a 20th level caster wants to waste their Concentration spell on Hex and not use any of their better spells. Using the theoretical 60% accuracy, that's 8d10+40 + 8d6 for an average of 67 dpr. For their whole turn. With no additional effects more significant than possibly moving or slowing what they hit. Or they could use Disintegrate for 75 dpr as a 6th level spell, with an additional 10 dpr for each upcast level, with Heightened Spell to reduce the chance of failure, on top of leaving their concentration slot free for something like Animate Objects or Blade of Disaster.
Hex is decent on Warlocks because they tend to spend more time spamming EB or making weapon attacks than using other spells. It's really not worth it on other casters.
What the Bardlock is giving up isn't just the capstone - it's undelayed spell progression at every level from 2-19. They're also going Valor or Swords, which are ultimately weaker than Lore, Eloquence, Creation, and nuGlamor. In other words, Bardlocks aren't problematic - they're fine.
Now for Paladin I agree, there currently isn't enough tradeoff there, but that's because Blade Pact is overtuned / works with every weapon under the sun currently. It should really just be 1H weapons unless you either take IPW or Hexblade - that way, Paladins who want to go with polearms either need to be MAD or they need to go for even more Warlock levels and thus delay their paladin features further.
Honestly, Blade Pact swapping the weapon to CHA is a nice feather but not a game-changer. Paladins are almost inevitably going to go heavy armor, so they already need to invest in 15 STR regardless of what their attack stat is. Using point buy to start at 16 CHA as well, this could hypothetically free up ASI's from level 12 on for feats, CON, or secondary stats, but much like Monks and Rangers, there's really not a pressing need to take the casting stat past 16 to make the class perform well. Spell slot priority is given to Divine Smite, and secondary priority usually goes to buffs that don't depend on the casting stat. The main notable effect is that it makes it easier to get an extra +2 on Aura of Protection, but while the extra 10% to save odds is nice, it's not really paradigm shifting. Basically I agree that they're not trading away much, but imo performance-wise they're not gaining a ton either; slightly better DC that's rarely used, slightly better saves, and honestly about the same stat/feat flexibility for class performance as if they leveled STR to 20 while leaving CHA at 16. I don't think Pact of Blade needs to be nerfed because of this scenario.
So Hex is a bad spell for a Sorlock who can spam EB twice as often per turn than a Warlock but it's a decent spell for Warlocks because they rely more on EB?
By that logic, Warlock is simply a far worse class than Sorc. I mean they spend a lot of time doing things that arent worth doing for a Sorlock who can do it twice as effective...
FYI monsters have a better chance of succeeding against a saving throw, that having you miss with an attack roll (roughly 15% difference) so when you account for that plus the fact that attack rolls can crit and saving throw spells cannot then Hex + EB on a sorlock deals better damage than Disintegrate and only costs the equivalent of 2x 1st level spells so they can do it all day long at the level they would be able to cast Disintegrate. Since "Dead" is the best condition, Hex + quickened EB is generally the best choice for a sorlock to make unless they can get at least 4 enemies in an AoE.
Also in the latest UA they rolled back having EB scale with warlock levels and have returning it to the 2014 version.
In OneD&D the scaling for Eldritch Blast is going to be tied to Warlock level, not class level like other cantrips. Currently, a Sorcerer would still need a 2 level dip (permanently delaying higher level spell access) in order to use EB as well as a Warlock since it works best when boosted via invocations. 3d10 at 11th level isn't anywhere near as good as 3d10+15 AND pushing the enemy into an area effect spell while also reducing their movement.
Warlock multi-classing shenanigans are primarily limited to characters that use weapons and spells in concert, largely due to bladelocks being more front end loaded than the ranger. I think part of the reason for a 3rd attack at lvl 11 is to encourage more single class bladelocks rather than seeing the standard as running to some other class. Although I think the issue here is less with the paladin and bard and more with the warlock itself. The class features of either a paladin or bard look a LOT more attractive than the gully dwarf slog Warlocks go through from levels 2 through 10.
How many spells you got, Warlock?
Two. No more than two.
in this context, i think "spend more time spamming EB" refers to keeping up hex between battles. i don't have any experience whatsoever with high level sorcerers, but i do follow the leap that a high level sorc might have better things to do with their concentration. a high level warlock too, come to think of it. but, hey, maybe the campaign has been 20 levels of polite and uncomplicated one-at-a-time monsters on a conveyor belt. can't lose focus on those efficiency metrics just before retirement.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Sorlock is considered a 'problem' by mechanics-hating thespians because:
A.) any multiclass, for any reason, is considered Problematic by mechanics-hating thespians. Even combinations that have natural narrative synergy, such as Laudna's Shadow sorceress/Undead warlock combination or a Storm sorceress/Genie warlock mix. Hell, the latter warlock patron has class features that actiovely state "you begin to take on some of the nature of your patron"; how does that not allow a natural blending of Djinni/Madrid Genielock and Storm sorcery?
B.) Even without full Coffeelock nonsense, the sorceress can use Pact Magic slots as a quick refresh for their sorcery points during a short rest and gain improved at-will damage through Agonizing Doink, alongside whatever subclass features they gain from the warlock's objectively stronger subclasses compared to sorcery. Situations like that, where the mechanics of one class naturally shore up one of the weaknesses of another class in a way that makes for a more logical, effective, and capable character, are sheerest poison to mechanics-hating thespians that thrive on broken, barely-functional characters so riddled with flaws it's amazing they haven't tripped over their own trauma, fallen down a pit, and died.
It was said earlier that people who focus on mechanically effective characters "naturally" care less about roleplaying, character growth, and narrative arcs, often to the point of not caring at all. This has been the exact opposite of my experience - the people most invested in understanding and exploring the game's mechanics are also the ones most invested in exploring the game's narrative side. People who go out of their way to grasp the game's mechanical systems as thoroughly as they're able can manipulate those systems to produce the result they want, which is almost never fishing for the most numerically potent mixture they can find but instead knowing how to execute unusual character concepts in ways that aren't a drag on the party. Or assembling a character that poses interesting questions the table can then enjoy finding the answers to.
Nobody gives a shit what the straight-classed wizard is/does, everybody knows exactly who that character is from the moment the game starts. Straight wizards aren't allowed to have interesting characterizations because as AoR has been insisting this whole thread, wizards are all required to be studious, book-smart, everything-else-dumb Magic Nerds who hate adventuring and constantly pine for civilization. We've all seen/played with/played as that idiot. Mingle the wizard and warlock classes, though? Well, now you have to ask which came first - did the character study magic in the ways of a wizard only to realize they didn't have the patience to go far on this route and turn their research towards finding a shortcut? Did they start as a warlock only to realize the power wasn't worth the price and use their experience to goad them into the focused discipline they lacked before? Or is their warlock patron merely another part of their study of the arcane, delving into gifts ordinary mortals - even wizardly-inclined ones - never gain in an attempt to understand those gifts and perhaps even learn how to replicate them through the arcane arts mortals do have? Or, or, is one of the gifts their patron gave them the ability to more easily grasp and understand the arcane, giving them a magical Intelligence boost so they could eclipse unboosted students of the arcane?
Plenty of fascinating questions you could ask...if warlocks weren't as required to be charismatic oblivious morons as wizards are required to be nerdy noodle-armed wieners completely unsuited to the rigors of adventuring.
Please do not contact or message me.
We're simply comparing personal experience and perceptions, really. I have zero problems believing you re: your experiences with optimizers/min maxers. I'm glad that it's been positive and they've cared just as much about the RP aspect of the game as the mechanical side. That's ideal, really.
My experience has been the opposite. A very narrow and intense focus on mechanics and optimization, with only token efforts at RP. The folks I've known who are most invested in the game's mechanics are mostly concerned with the tactical aspects of the game; all of their characters feel the same, regardless of class or ancestry. A dwarven wizard doesn't feel any different from a half-orc ranger; the differences are purely mechanical or abilities, not in how they have the character make decisions, interact with others, or develop as the game goes along.
BTW, I'm not a wanna thespian and don't ask my players to be. I do want the players to make an effort to inject each character with distinct and meaningful personality, expressed mainly by the choices they make in the game, not by silly voices or grandstanding at the table. I'm certainly no aspiring voice actor (or actor of any other kind) - but I do strive to give personality to my campaign world, especially through the descriptions, words, and choices of the NPCs.
And really, the biggest issue with optimization/min maxing is what other posters have said: when it's just one or two people in the party, which thereby throws off game balance a LOT.
Do they though? That hasn't been my experience with sorlocks. In an on-and-off pick up game we play we have a Sorlock and from level 3-15 they used Hex + EB spam 95% of their turns, and handily did more damage than any other character in the party unless the paladin was lucky enough to get a critical hit. The only other spells they cast were: Shield (all the time), Absorb Elements (occasionally), Haste (once or twice), Dimension Door (a couple times), Fly (once, out-of-combat), Counterspell (a few of times), Banishment (once), Misty Step (a few times). They had Hypnotic Pattern, Web, Wall of Force, and other good spells but they never ever used them. Now they've made it to level 16 their new go-to combo is Draconic Transformation + EB spam, instead of Hex + EB spam.
Yes, because Sorcerers have more alternative options to spend their Action and Bonus Action on. Particularly as at most levels you’ll burn through SP pretty quickly if you’re constantly using Quickened.
You did see my part about using the Bonus Action for other things too, right? I don’t have the time to crunch exact numbers atm, but the point stands that there’s other ways for a Sorc to hit big numbers without delaying spell progression to dip Warlock and lock themselves into a single move.
I don't doubt at all that your experience is as genuine as mine is. I mostly brought it up because I know a lot of people assume your experience is the default/expected/only reason to be engaged with the game's mechanics. At my table(s), people know the rules very well and use that knowledge to 1.) create mechanically interesting characters that mesh with interesting and unusual narratives, and 2.) know when, how, and why to selectively ignore rules to extract maximum engagement and awesomeness from the game. Heh, it's like they always say about painting and Picasso - Picasso was a master painter before he started breaking all the rules of painting, so he knew which rules he was breaking, why he was doing it, and what the end result would be. It's that intentionality I wish we could see more of in the game, people knowing precisely what they're doing and why they're doing it.
I like silly voices and grandstanding at the table. Putting on a performance for your fellow players can be a great way to enhance the D&D experience; my table's most memorable characters have mated an outlandish voice/persona to an effective mechanical build and interesting narrative decisions. It's by no means required, of course, someone can easily have an engaging and meaningful game of D&D told entirely in normal-voice third person, but I find it quite enjoyable to affect an accent and speak in my character's voice.
My problem is with people who think D&D is an Arte Forme (specifically with extra E's for added pretentiousness), that the purpose of the game is to be a Study of the Human State of Weakness, Vulnerability, and Pathos, and who are trying to turn the game into a Byronic tragedy instead of a fun game about adventuring in a fantasy land. People who're the ideological opposite of the Powergaming Math Munchkin and who are just as bad for D&D, but who often hold themselves up as the purest, truest, most ardent and proper enjoyers of the hobby and a standard of play to which everyone else should aspire. Which, let's be real: nobody else likes Bohemian Failure Monkeys.
It's one thing to make a decision you-the-player know is poor because it's something your character would do in the heat of a tense or difficult moment. It's quite another entirely to make a character whose sole and entire goal is to make nothing but poor decisions every single session until the TPK hits because you think a party flaming out and dying as ignoble failures is a more artistic story than adventuring in a fantasy land.
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Sorcerers don't have that many ways to use bonus actions outside quickened, so yeah I guess they can quicken the fireball and then eldritch blast. which may be better than 2 eldritch blasts. But if focused on on EB spam they wont run out of metamagic points as they can convert spells to metamagic points and most tables just don't have enough encounters for them to run out.
End result, yeah I can see why it could be a issue at some tables on the mechanical side now.
Edit to add and I can see how a warlock at the table may feel sort of screwed their gimmick is being done better by someone who dipped in. So again I hope they roll back to eldritch blast being tied to class level. Which along with flexible casting stat I mentioned in the play test feedback.
At my table the one optimizer who now is not with us as having kids ate into his free time role played fine. But him being that much better than the rest of the table both reduced the fun of the other players and made it a royal pain in the ass to balance an encounter for me. If I pushed things hard enough to challenge him without just focusing on him to a point it seemed like I was targeting him the rest of the party got stomped, if I didn't he rolled the fight like it was nothing.
There’s quite a few spells that give you some form of bonus action attack, so they have plenty. Regardless, this hypothetical combo is not a problem, just a very stale way to achieve the typical caster performance.
Multi classing in itself is not a issue, its when a simple dip or easy choice drastically alters the balance of the game which can reduce the fun of others at the table and make it harder to DM for. Like I said before optimizing and mechanic loving is fine, but the game should be designed so a optimized character is better than a non optimized one but not by too much. They should mechanically feel like they fit in the same table/party still. I think its fine if someone intentionally makes a bad character not fitting in with a optimized character balance wise but a fairly straight build should fit in with either.