Hi. A somewhat involved thread elsewhere inspired me to ask this question.
This is not about "D&D doesn't need a crafting system".
It also isn't for folks who think there isn't a crafting system in 5e at present.
(that's how we know who reads the OP lol)
Assuming you could have a crafting system that works with 5e rules as they are right now, what would it look like?
What would make it feel like a "real" crafting system to you?
What would you allow to be made in this crafting system?
What sorts of adventures would you create around that crafting system?
this isn't so much about "what is permissible" -- I'm not talking about DMs allowing or accepting. I'm just interested in the ideas and thoughts on crafting systems for 5e.
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Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Well, I don't think D&D needs more crafting mechanics.. at least not in the core. I have some players who would go 100% Minecraft hoarder mode with that. Optional rules could be nice though.
I thought that style was nice, and something that could easily be expanded to other types of crafting. Just give magic items a few keywords like "metal", "unholy", "fire", then have lists of creatures that could yield components for different keywords. The DM just needs to substitute some value of loot for equal value of components, that can be used to pay the crafting cost in the existing system.
For me at least, that type of system gives enough flexibility to adapt to different.. weighting of crafting in different campaigns.
1. Prices for magic items. This would help make their relative value much clearer, and it would also help to further establish the value of gold pieces as a currency. And I'm talking about individually listed prices, not the "Rare items should cost somewhere in this range" pricing.
2. Formulas/instructions/materials lists for crafting magic items. Or, at least several examples to give DMs a template from which to create their own formulas. This could help DMs to create adventures around collecting rare materials and hunting rare monsters.
3. Include with the stat blocks in the Monster Manual what, if any, materials can be harvested from creatures, and what kind of skill checks/DCs would be required. Or, if not in the MM, then at least a comprehensive table in the DMG.
4. Just more magic items. And more magic items for more of the classes. For example: in the 2014 DMG (& subsequent publications) there are a decent amount of specific magical longswords, or even axes & hammers. But there are very few bows or ranged weapons and no magic items for unarmed attacks. Now, there was a note in UA7 saying that they have plans for new magic items for unarmed and improvised fighting. But there are still a lot of gaps. There could be more specialized shields and armors and weapons. More potions and consumables varieties- and not just things that affect combat, but RP items, too. Like a truth serum (Potion of Candor), for example.
Of course, all of this type of stuff can be done by the DM on their own. But at some point, when you're buying a book that tells you how to play the game, you'd like something more than "feel free to make all this up on your own." I'd like to see more guides or guidelines. Kind of like their new direction for Class Spells, where they list common examples that you could take, or choose your own. Or, kind of like their new direction for Backgrounds, where they've provided a template on how to create your own, but then they also listed quite a few pre-made examples. Sometimes, its fun to do the work yourself and create on your own. But other times, it'd be nice if there were defined systems and lists already provided.
I’d think there should be advice for DMs on how to incorporate crafting. Stuff like, if your players are making their own items, then include less stuff in the treasure hoards to balance it out being one of the big ones.
I think to make a really functional system, you need to deal with the time element — make it something you knock out in a long rest instead of 150 work days. Maybe it’s more like cooking, you have a few ingredients, do something to combine them and then you have a single thing greater than the sum of its parts. So if you want to make a hammer of thunderbolts, you provide any old warhammer, something for the thunderbolt part, a little extra seasoning to make it interesting (this is where you do one of those weird cryptic things, like the tears of a mountain or the breath of tree), then a ritual you complete at the end of a long rest, and you attune to it simultaneously, and there you go. Getting the components can be as easy or difficult as needed for the campaign world. And the items, save the hammer, are consumed in the crafting of it.
This also gives the side benefit of basically being able to upgrade an existing weapon. I’d make it clear that you are swapping things not stacking them. So our theoretical hammer of thunderbolts can become a dwarven thrower, but it can only be one or the other, not both. And the change from one to the other should be enough of a challenge that you can’t toggle between them.
I’d hate to see component lists for each item, instead just say you need 2-4 things, and leave it to creativity of the player base, and availability of resources in a given campaign.
I think it should have sex, drugs and rock and roll. /jk
I think first thing we need to do is get rid of the time requirements. Just scrap them entirely. Having to spend nearly three years brewing a single potion or scribing a single scroll is just dumb. Not every DM is going to have that level of downtime. If you're going to let players craft, you should abstract the time to whatever the DM feels is appropriate.
Get rid of spellcaster requirements for making magic items. A dwarf Fighter with blacksmith training should be able to forge adamantine armor based on the magic within the metals. The spellcasting requirement just spits in the face of four of the classes and unnecessarily restricts their concept. The only requirement should be if you have the appropriate artisan tool proficencies.
A more varied approach to monster materials or other things you find while adventuring. Mithril, adamantine, orichalcum, dragon materials, special herbs and woods, fingerbones of a Solar, etc. Which could tie into exploration too - actually go out and find cool things to make other cool things with.
A crafting system enables addressing economics and society in D&D. If your workers could make a healing potion, better weapons, and technological improvements, how would your society function for your characters? Are there hospitals that heal you quickly because they have a factory making healing potions? If crafting is difficult, is there a noble who holds the families of artisans hostage to force them to build fortifications and forges?
Every rule in D&D creates plot points and storylines.
Tie crafting to Bastions so that games that don't use that system can ignore it as easily as possible, and the ones that want it (e.g. sandbox campaigns) can easily tie it to what they're already doing. Also helps make sure that you don't need {insert specific class} to make whatever since you can get a bunch of Artisans or Researchers or whomever to come by your base.
Tie crafting to Bastions so that games that don't use that system can ignore it as easily as possible, and the ones that want it (e.g. sandbox campaigns) can easily tie it to what they're already doing. Also helps make sure that you don't need {insert specific class} to make whatever since you can get a bunch of Artisans or Researchers or whomever to come by your base.
I disagree. It’s not hard to imagine a group that wants crafting, but not a bastion. Optional systems should be completely modular, not dependent on using a different optional system.
Tie crafting to Bastions so that games that don't use that system can ignore it as easily as possible, and the ones that want it (e.g. sandbox campaigns) can easily tie it to what they're already doing. Also helps make sure that you don't need {insert specific class} to make whatever since you can get a bunch of Artisans or Researchers or whomever to come by your base.
I disagree. It’s not hard to imagine a group that wants crafting, but not a bastion. Optional systems should be completely modular, not dependent on using a different optional system.
If they plan on having Downtime without Bastions then fine, but I was under the impression that they're trying to merge the two.
1. Prices for magic items. This would help make their relative value much clearer, and it would also help to further establish the value of gold pieces as a currency. And I'm talking about individually listed prices, not the "Rare items should cost somewhere in this range" pricing.
2. Formulas/instructions/materials lists for crafting magic items. Or, at least several examples to give DMs a template from which to create their own formulas. This could help DMs to create adventures around collecting rare materials and hunting rare monsters.
3. Include with the stat blocks in the Monster Manual what, if any, materials can be harvested from creatures, and what kind of skill checks/DCs would be required. Or, if not in the MM, then at least a comprehensive table in the DMG.
4. Just more magic items. And more magic items for more of the classes. For example: in the 2014 DMG (& subsequent publications) there are a decent amount of specific magical longswords, or even axes & hammers. But there are very few bows or ranged weapons and no magic items for unarmed attacks. Now, there was a note in UA7 saying that they have plans for new magic items for unarmed and improvised fighting. But there are still a lot of gaps. There could be more specialized shields and armors and weapons. More potions and consumables varieties- and not just things that affect combat, but RP items, too. Like a truth serum (Potion of Candor), for example.
Of course, all of this type of stuff can be done by the DM on their own. But at some point, when you're buying a book that tells you how to play the game, you'd like something more than "feel free to make all this up on your own." I'd like to see more guides or guidelines. Kind of like their new direction for Class Spells, where they list common examples that you could take, or choose your own. Or, kind of like their new direction for Backgrounds, where they've provided a template on how to create your own, but then they also listed quite a few pre-made examples. Sometimes, its fun to do the work yourself and create on your own. But other times, it'd be nice if there were defined systems and lists already provided.
I'd prefer to keep the materials required as simple as possible; if you want to make an uncommon item then you need an uncommon material (for a weapon or armour) or ingredient (for a potion). The remaining cost should be gold (for easy to obtain components) and time to do the work. It should be possible to buy or gather common crafting materials for use on the road or to lower gold costs if you wish, but again it shouldn't be too complex, e.g- "alchemy ingredients" for potions.
If you have suitable tool proficiencies you can use these to complete the work quicker, otherwise you might need to pay for someone to do it for you, e.g- a suitable blacksmith to forge a weapon etc.
Keeping the system as simple as possible means DMs (or optional rules) can still add further detail for groups that want it, rather than going detailed as a base and then having to try and work out the best way to skip parts of a more complex system. By having components identified mainly by rarity, the DM can still specify what they actually are if they want to, e.g- your rare component was red dragon scales, so whatever you make will be described as incorporating that.
In terms of what you can make, it probably makes sense to add a "Craftable" tag to items, so that we can be clear what kinds of things players can (relatively) easily make for themselves, versus items that are considered unique or challenging and would need some extra steps, like obtaining some kind of schematic that a DM could put behind a quest or interaction.
By keeping crafting tied to rarity, the DM can restrict crafting in the same way any other magical loot, by making the crafting materials available at the same kind of time.
The point is to keep the system simple, but flexible enough to build upon if you need to. Too much detail just makes it less likely to be used, or more annoying for more casual groups that might still like to do some crafting.
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I'm mostly okay with the system that exists in XGE but I have three main annoyances with it:
First. Currently, tool proficiency is largely just used as a binary to enable crafting in the first place. I'm not fond of that. I feel like an actual ability check should be made somewhere in the process. Off the top of my head it can be as simple as modifying the time or gold costs towards crafting.
Without much thought put into specific DCs or outcomes here's a sample of what I'm thinking of:
0 - 5 - The item takes either twice as long to craft or costs twice as much as the usual amount of gold. (Your choice) 5 - 15 - The item takes the normal time and cost to craft. 15 - 25 - The item takes either half as much time to craft or costs half the usual amount of gold. (Your choice) 25+ - The item takes half as much time to craft and costs half the usual amount of gold.
This or a similar template can apply to both magical and nonmagical crafting, though maybe there's a better way to integrate proficiency into this.
Second is the Exotic material requirement for crafting magic items. In theory I like this a lot, however I feel like the way they implemented this is backwards.
Following it straightforwardly requires the player to:
Decide on a specific magic item they want to craft and get approval from the DM.
Convince the rest of the party to go out on a specific adventure seeking that ingredient from an thematically appropriate creature of a specific challenge rating appropriate to the rarity of the magic item. To me this feels like it derails the campaign. It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly, but the way it's presented in the book makes this seem like this is an entirely separate adventure.
3. Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: Player can choose any magic item to craft (Pending DM approval) Cons: Requires having a specific item in mind up front. A player's desire to craft an item might interrupt the flow of the campaign. (Even if it didn't I personally would still feel like I'm imposing)
I'd prefer if it worked in a different order:
Over the course of any adventure you will naturally be encountering or facing creatures of various CRs. When you acquire an exotic material on the course of an adventure, mark down the CR of the relevant creature when this item is acquired. Use this CR to determine the potential rarity of an item one can craft with it.
Decide on a thematically appropriate item based on this exotic ingredient. (Item still requires DM approval)
Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: No need to plan a specific magic item in advance, that decision comes later and still requires DM approval. No need to convince anyone to go out seeking exotic ingredients. You just naturally pick them up over the course of an adventure. Cons: Your selection pool of possible magic items might be smaller. (Depends on how strict the table might be over a thematically appropriate item).
Third, I'm not super happy with the Formula requirement for crafting a magic item. Mostly because the game is largely silent on how this formula might be obtained.
XGE just claims it as a requirement and defines it as a recipe that lists the materials and steps required to craft. It offers nothing else.
DMG further implies that the default way to acquire a formula is to find it somewhere in the world, awarded as if it were itself a magic item of one level higher rarity (or the same rarity if magic items are commonplace). The problem with it being awarded in this way is two fold. It adds an extra hurdle to magic item crafting in a system that's already full of hurdles, and it feels like a character can't have authorship of this item, they have to look up an existing recipe. They can't devise their own recipe through research, reverse engineer a recipe from an existing item, or make modifications/substitutions to an existing recipe, etc. The crafter has to follow the recipe on the back of the box of mac and cheese to the letter.
It's true that nothing written outright prevents inventing or modifying a formula... but I'm also extremely used to reading RAW in a "The rules say what you can do, not what you can't do" frame of mind so I would appreciate a couple examples in the rules for alternate means of acquiring a formula.
Finally, and this is a minor gripe, I feel like any magic item should reflect the skill of its creator yet most magic items in the DMG have a static spell DC/spell attack modifier. Meaning any wand of smiles will always have a 10 DC regardless of if the creator was a level 3 novice or a level 20 master. I feel like a crafted item should have the same as its creator's spell DC at time of crafting. (Or in the case of Artificer infusions, their current DC/spell modifier so long as the item remains infused)
TLDR Summary:
I'd like for Tool Proficiency to matter more than just as a binary. Possibly through ability checks, possibly through other means.
I want to be able to gather the necessary materials with the least disruption to the DM and other player's plans as possible.
I'd prefer not having to decide on what specific item I create in advance of the entire process but closer to the middle (maybe even the end) even if this means I have fewer options for item selection overall.
If formulas remain a requirement I'd like the text to include some examples of ways to obtain them other than "you find it as loot instead of a stronger magic item."
It'd be nice if the static DC of the item were negotiable instead of only what's printed in the DMG.
I want to be able to gather the necessary materials with the least disruption to the DM and other player's plans as possible.
I'd prefer not having to decide on what specific item I create in advance of the entire process but closer to the middle (maybe even the end) even if this means I have fewer options for item selection overall.
I'll also add that these two reasons are why I actually like the abstract "buy a magic item with Bastion Points system." Cause it meshes somewhat well with a narrative of item crafting that doesn't interrupt the adventure.
I'm mostly okay with the system that exists in XGE but I have three main annoyances with it:
First. Currently, tool proficiency is largely just used as a binary to enable crafting in the first place. I'm not fond of that. I feel like an actual ability check should be made somewhere in the process. Off the top of my head it can be as simple as modifying the time or gold costs towards crafting.
Without much thought put into specific DCs or outcomes here's a sample of what I'm thinking of:
0 - 5 - The item takes either twice as long to craft or costs twice as much as the usual amount of gold. (Your choice) 5 - 15 - The item takes the normal time and cost to craft. 15 - 25 - The item takes either half as much time to craft or costs half the usual amount of gold. (Your choice) 25+ - The item takes half as much time to craft and costs half the usual amount of gold.
This or a similar template can apply to both magical and nonmagical crafting, though maybe there's a better way to integrate proficiency into this.
Second is the Exotic material requirement for crafting magic items. In theory I like this a lot, however I feel like the way they implemented this is backwards.
Following it straightforwardly requires the player to:
Decide on a specific magic item they want to craft and get approval from the DM.
Convince the rest of the party to go out on a specific adventure seeking that ingredient from an thematically appropriate creature of a specific challenge rating appropriate to the rarity of the magic item. To me this feels like it derails the campaign. It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly, but the way it's presented in the book makes this seem like this is an entirely separate adventure.
3. Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: Player can choose any magic item to craft (Pending DM approval) Cons: Requires having a specific item in mind up front. A player's desire to craft an item might interrupt the flow of the campaign. (Even if it didn't I personally would still feel like I'm imposing)
I'd prefer if it worked in a different order:
Over the course of any adventure you will naturally be encountering or facing creatures of various CRs. When you acquire an exotic material on the course of an adventure, mark down the CR of the relevant creature when this item is acquired. Use this CR to determine the potential rarity of an item one can craft with it.
Decide on a thematically appropriate item based on this exotic ingredient. (Item still requires DM approval)
Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: No need to plan a specific magic item in advance, that decision comes later and still requires DM approval. No need to convince anyone to go out seeking exotic ingredients. You just naturally pick them up over the course of an adventure. Cons: Your selection pool of possible magic items might be smaller. (Depends on how strict the table might be over a thematically appropriate item).
Third, I'm not super happy with the Formula requirement for crafting a magic item. Mostly because the game is largely silent on how this formula might be obtained.
XGE just claims it as a requirement and defines it as a recipe that lists the materials and steps required to craft. It offers nothing else.
DMG further implies that the default way to acquire a formula is to find it somewhere in the world, awarded as if it were itself a magic item of one level higher rarity (or the same rarity if magic items are commonplace). The problem with it being awarded in this way is two fold. It adds an extra hurdle to magic item crafting in a system that's already full of hurdles, and it feels like a character can't have authorship of this item, they have to look up an existing recipe. They can't devise their own recipe through research, reverse engineer a recipe from an existing item, or make modifications/substitutions to an existing recipe, etc. The crafter has to follow the recipe on the back of the box of mac and cheese to the letter.
It's true that nothing written outright prevents inventing or modifying a formula... but I'm also extremely used to reading RAW in a "The rules say what you can do, not what you can't do" frame of mind so I would appreciate a couple examples in the rules for alternate means of acquiring a formula.
Finally, and this is a minor gripe, I feel like any magic item should reflect the skill of its creator yet most magic items in the DMG have a static spell DC/spell attack modifier. Meaning any wand of smiles will always have a 10 DC regardless of if the creator was a level 3 novice or a level 20 master. I feel like a crafted item should have the same as its creator's spell DC at time of crafting. (Or in the case of Artificer infusions, their current DC/spell modifier so long as the item remains infused)
TLDR Summary:
I'd like for Tool Proficiency to matter more than just as a binary. Possibly through ability checks, possibly through other means.
I want to be able to gather the necessary materials with the least disruption to the DM and other player's plans as possible.
I'd prefer not having to decide on what specific item I create in advance of the entire process but closer to the middle (maybe even the end) even if this means I have fewer options for item selection overall.
If formulas remain a requirement I'd like the text to include some examples of ways to obtain them other than "you find it as loot instead of a stronger magic item."
It'd be nice if the static DC of the item were negotiable instead of only what's printed in the DMG.
Regarding how the component is acquired, there’s another option you didn’t consider: communicate with the DM ahead of time that you’d like to craft the item, so the DM can incorporate the acquisition of the component into the current adventure ahead of the downtime. Which is also why trying to make a hard list of components is counter-productive, to address a commonly brought up point. It sounds engaging at first, but ultimately it just creates a hurdle to integrating the acquisition into the campaign if only x, y, or z creature is acceptable for an item and none of them fit into the current scenario.
The penalty aspect of rolling for crafting doesn’t seem like a good idea imo, because it has the potential to outright blow up if the downtime exists in a strict window and the player can’t afford to double the cost. Honestly, I would give rolls only a positive result and less sway; maybe 15 DC for 10% off, 20 for 15% on a Common item, with the DCs scaling by 5 for each successive tier. Rewards tool profs and gives Artificers in particular some kick, but without the risk of yanking the rug out from under a player.
In general I think the time factor can stand as-is; making a magic sword, elaborate potion, or intricate arcane instrument does not sound like the kind of activities that can be done while on the road. I like the idea of having the bastion do the work so the item cooks while you’re away (although I’d eliminate the roll as a convenience fee), and maybe have a facility to trim 2-3 weeks off the time. As much as people like to make out like it takes years to forge a +1 sword, the 10 weeks for rare is hardly an unreasonable time lapse even if something is still cooking in the background, and Very Rare and Legendary should take a noteworthy investment of time to craft, both for worldbuilding and as a throttle on power accumulation. The schematics/formula could definitely be better laid out, but I’d say they’re useful as an express DM fiat tool to allow the DM to curate accessibility based on the needs of the campaign. Maybe say something like “some formula can be found by simply consulting the records of a friendly magical archive, some purchased from a vendor of magic items for [some formula or table to give prices by rarity- significantly smaller than the crafting cost], some must sought out or encountered on your travels, and some have simply been lost to the mists of time”. Gives the DM a suite of options to work with, based on what they want for the campaign.
I am not particularly fond of the whole detailed "formula/recipe" style of crafting system.
Indeed, if that did become a standard, I would remove crafting from my game entirely. To do so requires far too much of the materials and such being tied to the Lore, and Lore is, in my opinion, solely and explicitly the realm of the DM. You give me a bunch of lore, and I am less likely to use a system than I am one without it.
Two pointed examples: I canceled my preorder for the new book of many Things stuff because they introduced a metric ton of lore that is useless and would mean I would have to do far more work to create something that fits my setting. And I do not use any class from the base game or any race from the base game.
I happen to like a little more crunch than usual, but it isn't much more, and it has to serve a purpose.
For me, crafting should be about the little things that adventurers need, and less about magical items. Focusing on magical items is too much a "power fantasy", and I don't create power fantasy adventures, I create adventures that are meant to test a character and challenge a player, and so in my mind power fantasies steal the joy of the game from everyone. It is why I am hard on those who focus on optimizing.
Which is not to say that I want there to be no crafting system -- I do, in fact. I want it to be something of value to the players that helps them out while they are exploring the world, or when they have their backs to a corner, facing a small horde and need to prepare since they are already low on ammunition and some of their essentia items are in need of repair or replacement.
I Would expand the rarity system extensively, for magical items, and I would give a little more oomph to the proficiency system -- if a character gets or takes Smithing as a skill more than once, they gain some benefit to doing the work in terms of the completion roll, and the item might be more resistant to damage or more easily recovered. I would not allow for creation of anything at rare level or better until at least 13th level, and nothing legendary until 17th level. Uncommon would come in at 5th level, at the earliest, common at 3rd level at the earliest -- and only if they had significant skill.
I have no problem with the notion of being able to buy exotic ingredients and normal materials -- but I would also require the use of a workshop for things that require that. There is a difference between shoeing a horse or repairing a bent blade and creating a new one. A difference between patching armor and creating it.
WHich may sound odd to some people, but we don't have double damage crits. We have weapon breaking fumbles and armor damaging crits.
For us, it is about telling a good story, and a good story is not one wher ethe hero always has everything and is wholly able to win out every time, and can easily make anything they need. There is dram involved in all of that.
Also, we aren't bothered by downtime as much as others appear to be -- we use it as part of the growth and cycle of the characters -- I could argue that since it is an open world, downtime is part of the adventure, because there is no forced story, and not always a BBEG to overcome. Sometimes the adventure is surviving getting from point A to point B.
So for me, the crafting system should have a basis very close to the existing one -- not much detail, even less lore, and more suggestions and explanations of things like what makes something common or uncommon or rare. Crafting means there is no buying of magical items, as well, so it cannot be cheaper than buying it. Not for PCs.
Crafting can be a way of earning money, as well -- which is why I think the Bastion system should kill the generic "workshop" style space and simply do what they did for the other crafting type of spaces (smithing, brewing)and create a bunch of crafting spaces that provide benefits -- but even there, I don't think they should provide magical item benefits.
So if they do a crafting system, they need to seriously do something about he way that doing so interfaces with the prices in the PHB of regular goods -- that is, fix the economic system. Yes, adventurer's suddenly bring in a bunch of gold and depress the local value of it, but wealth is not the majority of why my players' characters adventure. That kind of thinking comes, imo, from wanting to game the rules, trying to make the rules the whole of the game like some sort of RAW competition. Doing that always reduces the fun of the game.
Doing that reduces the possibilities of the game.
So, basically:
Strip out Lore of any sort -- do not step on my toes.
Very limited magical items, focus on everyday items.
Fix economy to make worthwhile
Make it a part of the development of a character.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities .-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-. An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more. Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
Second is the Exotic material requirement for crafting magic items. In theory I like this a lot, however I feel like the way they implemented this is backwards.
Following it straightforwardly requires the player to:
Decide on a specific magic item they want to craft and get approval from the DM.
Convince the rest of the party to go out on a specific adventure seeking that ingredient from an thematically appropriate creature of a specific challenge rating appropriate to the rarity of the magic item. To me this feels like it derails the campaign. It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly, but the way it's presented in the book makes this seem like this is an entirely separate adventure.
3. Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: Player can choose any magic item to craft (Pending DM approval) Cons: Requires having a specific item in mind up front. A player's desire to craft an item might interrupt the flow of the campaign. (Even if it didn't I personally would still feel like I'm imposing)
I'd prefer if it worked in a different order:
Over the course of any adventure you will naturally be encountering or facing creatures of various CRs. When you acquire an exotic material on the course of an adventure, mark down the CR of the relevant creature when this item is acquired. Use this CR to determine the potential rarity of an item one can craft with it.
Decide on a thematically appropriate item based on this exotic ingredient. (Item still requires DM approval)
Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: No need to plan a specific magic item in advance, that decision comes later and still requires DM approval. No need to convince anyone to go out seeking exotic ingredients. You just naturally pick them up over the course of an adventure. Cons: Your selection pool of possible magic items might be smaller. (Depends on how strict the table might be over a thematically appropriate item).
Regarding how the component is acquired, there’s another option you didn’t consider: communicate with the DM ahead of time that you’d like to craft the item, so the DM can incorporate the acquisition of the component into the current adventure ahead of the downtime. Which is also why trying to make a hard list of components is counter-productive, to address a commonly brought up point. It sounds engaging at first, but ultimately it just creates a hurdle to integrating the acquisition into the campaign if only x, y, or z creature is acceptable for an item and none of them fit into the current scenario.
The rest of the quotes removed since it's a lot of text and I'm only addressing this paragraph anyway.
I did mention, briefly "It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly" but communicating this ahead of time also requires deciding in advance what item I'd like to create. This brings up the issue that by the time I have the downtime ready to craft I may no longer have any need for that item I decided on before acquiring the necessary ingredient for it.
Further, the alternate order I proposed doesn't require creating a hard list of components. You can just take any relevant magical object in the scene or body part of a creature possibly made up by the DM on the spot, such as the whisker of a Water Weird. What's important is marking down the creature's CR along with the item in your inventory. So in this case that would be writing down "Water Weird Whisker (CR3)." So that later on (possibly several sessions later) you have in your notes all of the information you need to potentially craft a thematically appropriate item without having to work out anything specific with your DM in advance other than "Hey, are you cool with us doing crafting in this campaign?" Then, run the actual item by your DM once you've come up with something. Then, once approved, take whatever other downtime steps are necessary to craft the item.
If neither your DM nor you care about the item retaining any thematic relationship to the creature you can even just write "Exotic Ingredient (CR3)" and know that lets you create a common magic item, per the rules in XGE.
Second is the Exotic material requirement for crafting magic items. In theory I like this a lot, however I feel like the way they implemented this is backwards.
Following it straightforwardly requires the player to:
Decide on a specific magic item they want to craft and get approval from the DM.
Convince the rest of the party to go out on a specific adventure seeking that ingredient from an thematically appropriate creature of a specific challenge rating appropriate to the rarity of the magic item. To me this feels like it derails the campaign. It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly, but the way it's presented in the book makes this seem like this is an entirely separate adventure.
3. Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: Player can choose any magic item to craft (Pending DM approval) Cons: Requires having a specific item in mind up front. A player's desire to craft an item might interrupt the flow of the campaign. (Even if it didn't I personally would still feel like I'm imposing)
I'd prefer if it worked in a different order:
Over the course of any adventure you will naturally be encountering or facing creatures of various CRs. When you acquire an exotic material on the course of an adventure, mark down the CR of the relevant creature when this item is acquired. Use this CR to determine the potential rarity of an item one can craft with it.
Decide on a thematically appropriate item based on this exotic ingredient. (Item still requires DM approval)
Craft the item taking the appropriate amount of time/gold.
Pros: No need to plan a specific magic item in advance, that decision comes later and still requires DM approval. No need to convince anyone to go out seeking exotic ingredients. You just naturally pick them up over the course of an adventure. Cons: Your selection pool of possible magic items might be smaller. (Depends on how strict the table might be over a thematically appropriate item).
Regarding how the component is acquired, there’s another option you didn’t consider: communicate with the DM ahead of time that you’d like to craft the item, so the DM can incorporate the acquisition of the component into the current adventure ahead of the downtime. Which is also why trying to make a hard list of components is counter-productive, to address a commonly brought up point. It sounds engaging at first, but ultimately it just creates a hurdle to integrating the acquisition into the campaign if only x, y, or z creature is acceptable for an item and none of them fit into the current scenario.
The rest of the quotes removed since it's a lot of text and I'm only addressing this paragraph anyway.
I did mention, briefly "It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly" but mentioning ahead of time also requires deciding in advance what item I'd like to create. This brings up the issue that by the time I have the downtime ready to craft I may no longer have any need for that item I decided on before acquiring the necessary item.
Further, the alternate order I proposed doesn't require creating a hard list of components. You can just take any relevant magical object in the scene or body part of a creature possibly made up on the spot, such as the whisker of a Water Weird. What's important is marking down the creature's CR (3 in this case) along with the item in your inventory. So that later on (possibly several sessions later) you have in your notes all of the information you need to potentially craft a thematically appropriate item without having to work out anything specific with your DM in advance other than "Hey, are you cool with us doing crafting in this campaign?" Then, run the actual item by your DM once you've come up with something. Then, take whatever other downtime steps are necessary to craft the item.
So don’t try to craft something you’re only situationally interested in. Being able to knock together the right tool for the job on the spot is the function of Artificers. Magic item crafting is a way to get at the items at the top of your wishlist; if you want to MacGuyver your way out of an active situation, you invoke the five sacred words “I’d like to try something”, take up your d20, and place your fate in the hands of RNGsus.
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Hi. A somewhat involved thread elsewhere inspired me to ask this question.
This is not about "D&D doesn't need a crafting system".
It also isn't for folks who think there isn't a crafting system in 5e at present.
(that's how we know who reads the OP lol)
Assuming you could have a crafting system that works with 5e rules as they are right now, what would it look like?
What would make it feel like a "real" crafting system to you?
What would you allow to be made in this crafting system?
What sorts of adventures would you create around that crafting system?
this isn't so much about "what is permissible" -- I'm not talking about DMs allowing or accepting. I'm just interested in the ideas and thoughts on crafting systems for 5e.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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Well, I don't think D&D needs more crafting mechanics.. at least not in the core. I have some players who would go 100% Minecraft hoarder mode with that. Optional rules could be nice though.
There was a homebrew for herbalism posted on this awhile back: https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1488-the-horticulturists-guide-to-plants-in-d-d
I thought that style was nice, and something that could easily be expanded to other types of crafting. Just give magic items a few keywords like "metal", "unholy", "fire", then have lists of creatures that could yield components for different keywords. The DM just needs to substitute some value of loot for equal value of components, that can be used to pay the crafting cost in the existing system.
For me at least, that type of system gives enough flexibility to adapt to different.. weighting of crafting in different campaigns.
1. Prices for magic items. This would help make their relative value much clearer, and it would also help to further establish the value of gold pieces as a currency. And I'm talking about individually listed prices, not the "Rare items should cost somewhere in this range" pricing.
2. Formulas/instructions/materials lists for crafting magic items. Or, at least several examples to give DMs a template from which to create their own formulas. This could help DMs to create adventures around collecting rare materials and hunting rare monsters.
3. Include with the stat blocks in the Monster Manual what, if any, materials can be harvested from creatures, and what kind of skill checks/DCs would be required. Or, if not in the MM, then at least a comprehensive table in the DMG.
4. Just more magic items. And more magic items for more of the classes. For example: in the 2014 DMG (& subsequent publications) there are a decent amount of specific magical longswords, or even axes & hammers. But there are very few bows or ranged weapons and no magic items for unarmed attacks. Now, there was a note in UA7 saying that they have plans for new magic items for unarmed and improvised fighting. But there are still a lot of gaps. There could be more specialized shields and armors and weapons. More potions and consumables varieties- and not just things that affect combat, but RP items, too. Like a truth serum (Potion of Candor), for example.
Of course, all of this type of stuff can be done by the DM on their own. But at some point, when you're buying a book that tells you how to play the game, you'd like something more than "feel free to make all this up on your own." I'd like to see more guides or guidelines. Kind of like their new direction for Class Spells, where they list common examples that you could take, or choose your own. Or, kind of like their new direction for Backgrounds, where they've provided a template on how to create your own, but then they also listed quite a few pre-made examples. Sometimes, its fun to do the work yourself and create on your own. But other times, it'd be nice if there were defined systems and lists already provided.
I’d think there should be advice for DMs on how to incorporate crafting. Stuff like, if your players are making their own items, then include less stuff in the treasure hoards to balance it out being one of the big ones.
I think to make a really functional system, you need to deal with the time element — make it something you knock out in a long rest instead of 150 work days. Maybe it’s more like cooking, you have a few ingredients, do something to combine them and then you have a single thing greater than the sum of its parts. So if you want to make a hammer of thunderbolts, you provide any old warhammer, something for the thunderbolt part, a little extra seasoning to make it interesting (this is where you do one of those weird cryptic things, like the tears of a mountain or the breath of tree), then a ritual you complete at the end of a long rest, and you attune to it simultaneously, and there you go. Getting the components can be as easy or difficult as needed for the campaign world. And the items, save the hammer, are consumed in the crafting of it.
This also gives the side benefit of basically being able to upgrade an existing weapon. I’d make it clear that you are swapping things not stacking them. So our theoretical hammer of thunderbolts can become a dwarven thrower, but it can only be one or the other, not both. And the change from one to the other should be enough of a challenge that you can’t toggle between them.
I’d hate to see component lists for each item, instead just say you need 2-4 things, and leave it to creativity of the player base, and availability of resources in a given campaign.
I think it should have sex, drugs and rock and roll. /jk
I think first thing we need to do is get rid of the time requirements. Just scrap them entirely. Having to spend nearly three years brewing a single potion or scribing a single scroll is just dumb. Not every DM is going to have that level of downtime. If you're going to let players craft, you should abstract the time to whatever the DM feels is appropriate.
Get rid of spellcaster requirements for making magic items. A dwarf Fighter with blacksmith training should be able to forge adamantine armor based on the magic within the metals. The spellcasting requirement just spits in the face of four of the classes and unnecessarily restricts their concept. The only requirement should be if you have the appropriate artisan tool proficencies.
A more varied approach to monster materials or other things you find while adventuring. Mithril, adamantine, orichalcum, dragon materials, special herbs and woods, fingerbones of a Solar, etc. Which could tie into exploration too - actually go out and find cool things to make other cool things with.
Crafting should only be things a player can craft on the go, not some robust downtime crafting system. Stuff they can work on during short rest.
A crafting system enables addressing economics and society in D&D. If your workers could make a healing potion, better weapons, and technological improvements, how would your society function for your characters? Are there hospitals that heal you quickly because they have a factory making healing potions? If crafting is difficult, is there a noble who holds the families of artisans hostage to force them to build fortifications and forges?
Every rule in D&D creates plot points and storylines.
Tie crafting to Bastions so that games that don't use that system can ignore it as easily as possible, and the ones that want it (e.g. sandbox campaigns) can easily tie it to what they're already doing. Also helps make sure that you don't need {insert specific class} to make whatever since you can get a bunch of Artisans or Researchers or whomever to come by your base.
I disagree. It’s not hard to imagine a group that wants crafting, but not a bastion. Optional systems should be completely modular, not dependent on using a different optional system.
If they plan on having Downtime without Bastions then fine, but I was under the impression that they're trying to merge the two.
This.
I'd prefer to keep the materials required as simple as possible; if you want to make an uncommon item then you need an uncommon material (for a weapon or armour) or ingredient (for a potion). The remaining cost should be gold (for easy to obtain components) and time to do the work. It should be possible to buy or gather common crafting materials for use on the road or to lower gold costs if you wish, but again it shouldn't be too complex, e.g- "alchemy ingredients" for potions.
If you have suitable tool proficiencies you can use these to complete the work quicker, otherwise you might need to pay for someone to do it for you, e.g- a suitable blacksmith to forge a weapon etc.
Keeping the system as simple as possible means DMs (or optional rules) can still add further detail for groups that want it, rather than going detailed as a base and then having to try and work out the best way to skip parts of a more complex system. By having components identified mainly by rarity, the DM can still specify what they actually are if they want to, e.g- your rare component was red dragon scales, so whatever you make will be described as incorporating that.
In terms of what you can make, it probably makes sense to add a "Craftable" tag to items, so that we can be clear what kinds of things players can (relatively) easily make for themselves, versus items that are considered unique or challenging and would need some extra steps, like obtaining some kind of schematic that a DM could put behind a quest or interaction.
By keeping crafting tied to rarity, the DM can restrict crafting in the same way any other magical loot, by making the crafting materials available at the same kind of time.
The point is to keep the system simple, but flexible enough to build upon if you need to. Too much detail just makes it less likely to be used, or more annoying for more casual groups that might still like to do some crafting.
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Tie rarity to CR lvl of monsters
I'm mostly okay with the system that exists in XGE but I have three main annoyances with it:
First. Currently, tool proficiency is largely just used as a binary to enable crafting in the first place. I'm not fond of that.
I feel like an actual ability check should be made somewhere in the process. Off the top of my head it can be as simple as modifying the time or gold costs towards crafting.
Without much thought put into specific DCs or outcomes here's a sample of what I'm thinking of:
0 - 5 - The item takes either twice as long to craft or costs twice as much as the usual amount of gold. (Your choice)
5 - 15 - The item takes the normal time and cost to craft.
15 - 25 - The item takes either half as much time to craft or costs half the usual amount of gold. (Your choice)
25+ - The item takes half as much time to craft and costs half the usual amount of gold.
This or a similar template can apply to both magical and nonmagical crafting, though maybe there's a better way to integrate proficiency into this.
Second is the Exotic material requirement for crafting magic items.
In theory I like this a lot, however I feel like the way they implemented this is backwards.
Following it straightforwardly requires the player to:
Pros: Player can choose any magic item to craft (Pending DM approval)
Cons: Requires having a specific item in mind up front. A player's desire to craft an item might interrupt the flow of the campaign.
(Even if it didn't I personally would still feel like I'm imposing)
I'd prefer if it worked in a different order:
Pros: No need to plan a specific magic item in advance, that decision comes later and still requires DM approval. No need to convince anyone to go out seeking exotic ingredients. You just naturally pick them up over the course of an adventure.
Cons: Your selection pool of possible magic items might be smaller. (Depends on how strict the table might be over a thematically appropriate item).
Third, I'm not super happy with the Formula requirement for crafting a magic item. Mostly because the game is largely silent on how this formula might be obtained.
XGE just claims it as a requirement and defines it as a recipe that lists the materials and steps required to craft. It offers nothing else.
DMG further implies that the default way to acquire a formula is to find it somewhere in the world, awarded as if it were itself a magic item of one level higher rarity (or the same rarity if magic items are commonplace). The problem with it being awarded in this way is two fold. It adds an extra hurdle to magic item crafting in a system that's already full of hurdles, and it feels like a character can't have authorship of this item, they have to look up an existing recipe. They can't devise their own recipe through research, reverse engineer a recipe from an existing item, or make modifications/substitutions to an existing recipe, etc. The crafter has to follow the recipe on the back of the box of mac and cheese to the letter.
It's true that nothing written outright prevents inventing or modifying a formula... but I'm also extremely used to reading RAW in a "The rules say what you can do, not what you can't do" frame of mind so I would appreciate a couple examples in the rules for alternate means of acquiring a formula.
Finally, and this is a minor gripe, I feel like any magic item should reflect the skill of its creator yet most magic items in the DMG have a static spell DC/spell attack modifier. Meaning any wand of smiles will always have a 10 DC regardless of if the creator was a level 3 novice or a level 20 master. I feel like a crafted item should have the same as its creator's spell DC at time of crafting. (Or in the case of Artificer infusions, their current DC/spell modifier so long as the item remains infused)
TLDR Summary:
I'll also add that these two reasons are why I actually like the abstract "buy a magic item with Bastion Points system." Cause it meshes somewhat well with a narrative of item crafting that doesn't interrupt the adventure.
They literally already did this with the XGtE crafting; there’s a suggested CR by item rarity.
Regarding how the component is acquired, there’s another option you didn’t consider: communicate with the DM ahead of time that you’d like to craft the item, so the DM can incorporate the acquisition of the component into the current adventure ahead of the downtime. Which is also why trying to make a hard list of components is counter-productive, to address a commonly brought up point. It sounds engaging at first, but ultimately it just creates a hurdle to integrating the acquisition into the campaign if only x, y, or z creature is acceptable for an item and none of them fit into the current scenario.
The penalty aspect of rolling for crafting doesn’t seem like a good idea imo, because it has the potential to outright blow up if the downtime exists in a strict window and the player can’t afford to double the cost. Honestly, I would give rolls only a positive result and less sway; maybe 15 DC for 10% off, 20 for 15% on a Common item, with the DCs scaling by 5 for each successive tier. Rewards tool profs and gives Artificers in particular some kick, but without the risk of yanking the rug out from under a player.
In general I think the time factor can stand as-is; making a magic sword, elaborate potion, or intricate arcane instrument does not sound like the kind of activities that can be done while on the road. I like the idea of having the bastion do the work so the item cooks while you’re away (although I’d eliminate the roll as a convenience fee), and maybe have a facility to trim 2-3 weeks off the time. As much as people like to make out like it takes years to forge a +1 sword, the 10 weeks for rare is hardly an unreasonable time lapse even if something is still cooking in the background, and Very Rare and Legendary should take a noteworthy investment of time to craft, both for worldbuilding and as a throttle on power accumulation. The schematics/formula could definitely be better laid out, but I’d say they’re useful as an express DM fiat tool to allow the DM to curate accessibility based on the needs of the campaign. Maybe say something like “some formula can be found by simply consulting the records of a friendly magical archive, some purchased from a vendor of magic items for [some formula or table to give prices by rarity- significantly smaller than the crafting cost], some must sought out or encountered on your travels, and some have simply been lost to the mists of time”. Gives the DM a suite of options to work with, based on what they want for the campaign.
I am not particularly fond of the whole detailed "formula/recipe" style of crafting system.
Indeed, if that did become a standard, I would remove crafting from my game entirely. To do so requires far too much of the materials and such being tied to the Lore, and Lore is, in my opinion, solely and explicitly the realm of the DM. You give me a bunch of lore, and I am less likely to use a system than I am one without it.
Two pointed examples: I canceled my preorder for the new book of many Things stuff because they introduced a metric ton of lore that is useless and would mean I would have to do far more work to create something that fits my setting. And I do not use any class from the base game or any race from the base game.
I happen to like a little more crunch than usual, but it isn't much more, and it has to serve a purpose.
For me, crafting should be about the little things that adventurers need, and less about magical items. Focusing on magical items is too much a "power fantasy", and I don't create power fantasy adventures, I create adventures that are meant to test a character and challenge a player, and so in my mind power fantasies steal the joy of the game from everyone. It is why I am hard on those who focus on optimizing.
Which is not to say that I want there to be no crafting system -- I do, in fact. I want it to be something of value to the players that helps them out while they are exploring the world, or when they have their backs to a corner, facing a small horde and need to prepare since they are already low on ammunition and some of their essentia items are in need of repair or replacement.
I Would expand the rarity system extensively, for magical items, and I would give a little more oomph to the proficiency system -- if a character gets or takes Smithing as a skill more than once, they gain some benefit to doing the work in terms of the completion roll, and the item might be more resistant to damage or more easily recovered. I would not allow for creation of anything at rare level or better until at least 13th level, and nothing legendary until 17th level. Uncommon would come in at 5th level, at the earliest, common at 3rd level at the earliest -- and only if they had significant skill.
I have no problem with the notion of being able to buy exotic ingredients and normal materials -- but I would also require the use of a workshop for things that require that. There is a difference between shoeing a horse or repairing a bent blade and creating a new one. A difference between patching armor and creating it.
WHich may sound odd to some people, but we don't have double damage crits. We have weapon breaking fumbles and armor damaging crits.
For us, it is about telling a good story, and a good story is not one wher ethe hero always has everything and is wholly able to win out every time, and can easily make anything they need. There is dram involved in all of that.
Also, we aren't bothered by downtime as much as others appear to be -- we use it as part of the growth and cycle of the characters -- I could argue that since it is an open world, downtime is part of the adventure, because there is no forced story, and not always a BBEG to overcome. Sometimes the adventure is surviving getting from point A to point B.
So for me, the crafting system should have a basis very close to the existing one -- not much detail, even less lore, and more suggestions and explanations of things like what makes something common or uncommon or rare. Crafting means there is no buying of magical items, as well, so it cannot be cheaper than buying it. Not for PCs.
Crafting can be a way of earning money, as well -- which is why I think the Bastion system should kill the generic "workshop" style space and simply do what they did for the other crafting type of spaces (smithing, brewing)and create a bunch of crafting spaces that provide benefits -- but even there, I don't think they should provide magical item benefits.
So if they do a crafting system, they need to seriously do something about he way that doing so interfaces with the prices in the PHB of regular goods -- that is, fix the economic system. Yes, adventurer's suddenly bring in a bunch of gold and depress the local value of it, but wealth is not the majority of why my players' characters adventure. That kind of thinking comes, imo, from wanting to game the rules, trying to make the rules the whole of the game like some sort of RAW competition. Doing that always reduces the fun of the game.
Doing that reduces the possibilities of the game.
So, basically:
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
The rest of the quotes removed since it's a lot of text and I'm only addressing this paragraph anyway.
I did mention, briefly "It's possible a DM can weave the necessary creature into a campaign seamlessly" but communicating this ahead of time also requires deciding in advance what item I'd like to create. This brings up the issue that by the time I have the downtime ready to craft I may no longer have any need for that item I decided on before acquiring the necessary ingredient for it.
Further, the alternate order I proposed doesn't require creating a hard list of components. You can just take any relevant magical object in the scene or body part of a creature possibly made up by the DM on the spot, such as the whisker of a Water Weird. What's important is marking down the creature's CR along with the item in your inventory. So in this case that would be writing down "Water Weird Whisker (CR3)." So that later on (possibly several sessions later) you have in your notes all of the information you need to potentially craft a thematically appropriate item without having to work out anything specific with your DM in advance other than "Hey, are you cool with us doing crafting in this campaign?" Then, run the actual item by your DM once you've come up with something. Then, once approved, take whatever other downtime steps are necessary to craft the item.
If neither your DM nor you care about the item retaining any thematic relationship to the creature you can even just write "Exotic Ingredient (CR3)" and know that lets you create a common magic item, per the rules in XGE.
So don’t try to craft something you’re only situationally interested in. Being able to knock together the right tool for the job on the spot is the function of Artificers. Magic item crafting is a way to get at the items at the top of your wishlist; if you want to MacGuyver your way out of an active situation, you invoke the five sacred words “I’d like to try something”, take up your d20, and place your fate in the hands of RNGsus.