Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
The Six Sacred Scores are about as well defined in the PHB/DMG as they can be. They've long been a mediocre-at-best fit for the needs of the game, but they're a sacred cow so we're stuck with them.
As casting stats, specifically, they are not defined at all and serve very poorly in that regard. There is no difference between casting with any of the given stats, all spellcasting is mechanically identical and until that changes there's no reason to differentiate between casting stats.
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
I am increasingly of the opinion that the idea of a "Casting Stat" itself is the core problem. That your abilities as a spellcaster are tied solely to something that fundamentally has no bearing whatsoever on your magic, and because of that your character is always shoehorned into one of a small number of nichey, narrow, shitty overplayed tropes with absolutely zero room for creativity or fresh takes.
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
I wouldn't. I would likely reconfigure the system to try and function solely off proficiency bonus, or otherwise divorce spellcasting from individual Sacred Scores.
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
No. Because I'm fed up with every casting class being shoehorned into the same dumb stupid lame tropes every single time because they're all forced to assume the same bloody stat spreads.
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Anything I'd like to know would likely be considered irrelevant to anyone still married to the Six Sacred Scores. So nah, guess not.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Sorcerous magic seems completely unrelated to any definition of Charisma.
sorcerer got chr by process of elimination.
Which seems a lot like "we need to stop CHA from being a dump-stat ... so lets take these two different concepts of a Magic-User and split them apart into two different classes whose names are both things that overlap with the Magic-User."
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
The Six Sacred Scores are about as well defined in the PHB/DMG as they can be. They've long been a mediocre-at-best fit for the needs of the game, but they're a sacred cow so we're stuck with them.
As casting stats, specifically, they are not defined at all and serve very poorly in that regard. There is no difference between casting with any of the given stats, all spellcasting is mechanically identical and until that changes there's no reason to differentiate between casting stats.
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
I am increasingly of the opinion that the idea of a "Casting Stat" itself is the core problem. That your abilities as a spellcaster are tied solely to something that fundamentally has no bearing whatsoever on your magic, and because of that your character is always shoehorned into one of a small number of nichey, narrow, shitty overplayed tropes with absolutely zero room for creativity or fresh takes.
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
I wouldn't. I would likely reconfigure the system to try and function solely off proficiency bonus, or otherwise divorce spellcasting from individual Sacred Scores.
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
No. Because I'm fed up with every casting class being shoehorned into the same dumb stupid lame tropes every single time because they're all forced to assume the same bloody stat spreads.
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Anything I'd like to know would likely be considered irrelevant to anyone still married to the Six Sacred Scores. So nah, guess not.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Melee power was divorced from one stat the moment they created finesse weapons. Just because casting stats are divorced from class wouldn’t divorce skill checks from stats so a party of just Dex/Con Characters will struggle. Also very important flaw of the game is Wisdom stat that it doesn’t make the Character Wise. In game Wisdom Stat is Perception and Intuition. If you lack Knowledge which is represented by Intelligence you can’t can actually be a Wise cleric. You are an intuitive cleric. Without knowledge there is no understanding. Real world wisdom requires knowledge. The mental stats are the strangest thing ever to me when I really think about them. This is the main reason I couldn’t make an unbiased poll without getting input first.
Sorcerous magic seems completely unrelated to any definition of Charisma.
sorcerer got chr by process of elimination.
Which seems a lot like "we need to stop CHA from being a dump-stat ... so lets take these two different concepts of a Magic-User and split them apart into two different classes whose names are both things that overlap with the Magic-User."
i dont think so, i think when they made dnd they had a very strong idea of themes and tropes built in. If you read the phb, picking a class is heavily promoted as the identity or fantasy of the class over the mechanics.
So the problem is wizard represents the fantasy of a really smart guy who studies a lot, and a lot of players arent into that magical fantasy, a lot of people like the idea of unexpectedly developing powers, or it being about your blood, or you being special.
Sorcerer gets to play that type of archetype, whereas wizard is an academic brain type. They want to be the xmen, not tony stark or lex luthor.
The difference here, Gwar, is that you consider a "strong idea of themes and tropes" to be a positive trait, a Feature. For many of the game's newer players, A "strong idea of themes and tropes" is a negative trait, a Drawback left lingering from the game's past baggage. That forcing each and every member of a class to conform as hard as possible to that class's Core Ideal, to the active and explicit detriment of character, roleplaying, and player enjoyment, is holding the game back rather than propping it up.
There's been arguments for months now about how a significant percentage of players view the warlock's Default Fantasy/Tropes of "a guy who uses sleaze, smarm, and sex appeal to somehow hoodwink a planar entity into giving them powers while yet also getting a disastrously bad deal in exchange for those powers" is A.) not even remotely true for a very sizeable number of perfectly valid "warlock" character concepts, B.) icky to play, and C.) self-contradictory (if the warlock's Pact is always CATASTROPHICALLY TERRIBLE for the warlock the way Warlock CHA Purists claim they must be, with terms that no sane person would EVER accept, why do you need an extremely strong sex drive 'force of personality' to convince the entity to saddle you with this hilariously terrible-for-you deal? They should be leaping at the chance to get you so firmly over a barrel). Has this not registered with purists at all? The class's whole "awful terrible Faustian baregain" schtick is actively detrimental to a great many class concepts the mechanical framework would otherwise allow players to execute.
The same can be said of many other classes, if not to quite as clear and obvious an extent. The mere existence of Oath of Vengenace flies in the face of the "SHINING RADIANT KNIGHT OF HOLY PURITY AND DIVINE GOODNESS AND LIGHT" that the "class fantasy" spells out for dingdongs. Rogues are memed on across the Internet as smarmy nasty party-screwing dickwads universally afflicted with actue involuntary kleptomania, but every subclass except Thief tells a different story, and even the thief is presented as a canny professional rather than a sticky-fingered ass bandit who'd risk jail time for two copper buttons off the flaps of a man's long johns.
Players have moved beyond the boring, crappy, overplayed and over-memed Fantasy Stereotypes the game keeps trying to perpetuate. So why keep perpetuating them?
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
The Six Sacred Scores are about as well defined in the PHB/DMG as they can be. They've long been a mediocre-at-best fit for the needs of the game, but they're a sacred cow so we're stuck with them.
As casting stats, specifically, they are not defined at all and serve very poorly in that regard. There is no difference between casting with any of the given stats, all spellcasting is mechanically identical and until that changes there's no reason to differentiate between casting stats.
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
I am increasingly of the opinion that the idea of a "Casting Stat" itself is the core problem. That your abilities as a spellcaster are tied solely to something that fundamentally has no bearing whatsoever on your magic, and because of that your character is always shoehorned into one of a small number of nichey, narrow, shitty overplayed tropes with absolutely zero room for creativity or fresh takes.
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
I wouldn't. I would likely reconfigure the system to try and function solely off proficiency bonus, or otherwise divorce spellcasting from individual Sacred Scores.
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
No. Because I'm fed up with every casting class being shoehorned into the same dumb stupid lame tropes every single time because they're all forced to assume the same bloody stat spreads.
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Anything I'd like to know would likely be considered irrelevant to anyone still married to the Six Sacred Scores. So nah, guess not.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Melee power was divorced from one stat the moment they created finesse weapons. Just because casting stats are divorced from class wouldn’t divorce skill checks from stats so a party of just Dex/Con Characters will struggle. Also very important flaw of the game is Wisdom stat that it doesn’t make the Character Wise. In game Wisdom Stat is Perception and Intuition. If you lack Knowledge which is represented by Intelligence you can’t can actually be a Wise cleric. You are an intuitive cleric. Without knowledge there is no understanding. Real world wisdom requires knowledge. The mental stats are the strangest thing ever to me when I really think about them. This is the main reason I couldn’t make an unbiased poll without getting input first.
the post i was responding to was talking about divorcing damage compeletly from attributes. Dex is still an attribute. They were reccomending power be based on PB, and you can be whatever type of stat you want for a class without losing any power.
Also, the point isnt that they want attributes tied for attribute sake, they want them tied to a certain attribute because it fits into some sort of fantasy trope. Real world wisdom is mostly about intuition, perception. A wise man understands the way the world works, and the nature of people. They speak in parables. Knowing lots of things doesnt really represent wisdom. The wise person applies knowledge better, they have better judgement. Its not really the same thing.
Trope wise, is the priest highly intellegient? can they easily aquire knowledge and synthesize information, see patterns? or do they know whats going on, and show strong judgement. i have known many highly intelligent people who were not wise, and many wise people who wouldnt be described as highly intelligent.
foolish wizards are common tropes, mad scientists, academics who blew themselves up, foolish shaman, or foolish priest, less so. Corrupt maybe, but not foolish
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
The Six Sacred Scores are about as well defined in the PHB/DMG as they can be. They've long been a mediocre-at-best fit for the needs of the game, but they're a sacred cow so we're stuck with them.
As casting stats, specifically, they are not defined at all and serve very poorly in that regard. There is no difference between casting with any of the given stats, all spellcasting is mechanically identical and until that changes there's no reason to differentiate between casting stats.
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
I am increasingly of the opinion that the idea of a "Casting Stat" itself is the core problem. That your abilities as a spellcaster are tied solely to something that fundamentally has no bearing whatsoever on your magic, and because of that your character is always shoehorned into one of a small number of nichey, narrow, shitty overplayed tropes with absolutely zero room for creativity or fresh takes.
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
I wouldn't. I would likely reconfigure the system to try and function solely off proficiency bonus, or otherwise divorce spellcasting from individual Sacred Scores.
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
No. Because I'm fed up with every casting class being shoehorned into the same dumb stupid lame tropes every single time because they're all forced to assume the same bloody stat spreads.
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Anything I'd like to know would likely be considered irrelevant to anyone still married to the Six Sacred Scores. So nah, guess not.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Melee power was divorced from one stat the moment they created finesse weapons. Just because casting stats are divorced from class wouldn’t divorce skill checks from stats so a party of just Dex/Con Characters will struggle. Also very important flaw of the game is Wisdom stat that it doesn’t make the Character Wise. In game Wisdom Stat is Perception and Intuition. If you lack Knowledge which is represented by Intelligence you can’t can actually be a Wise cleric. You are an intuitive cleric. Without knowledge there is no understanding. Real world wisdom requires knowledge. The mental stats are the strangest thing ever to me when I really think about them. This is the main reason I couldn’t make an unbiased poll without getting input first.
the post i was responding to was talking about divorcing damage compeletly from attributes. Dex is still an attribute. They were reccomending power be based on PB, and you can be whatever type of stat you want for a class without losing any power.
Also, the point isnt that they want attributes tied for attribute sake, they want them tied to a certain attribute because it fits into some sort of fantasy trope. Real world wisdom is mostly about intuition, perception. A wise man understands the way the world works, and the nature of people. They speak in parables. Knowing lots of things doesnt really represent wisdom. The wise person applies knowledge better, they have better judgement. Its not really the same thing.
Trope wise, is the priest highly intellegient? can they easily aquire knowledge and synthesize information, see patterns? or do they know whats going on, and show strong judgement. i have known many highly intelligent people who were not wise, and many wise people who wouldnt be described as highly intelligent.
foolish wizards are common tropes, mad scientists, academics who blew themselves up, foolish shaman, or foolish priest, less so. Corrupt maybe, but not foolish
I’m not going to start a pointless argument defending Yurie’s stance even though I agree with him. I will point out that your understanding of real world Wisdom is very flawed. Wisdom- the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment. I’m sorry you can’t a Wise without experience or knowledge. The mental stats make no sense.
From a pure game balance standpoint, I think spellcasting should use the same trait as you'd use to accomplish the same thing without magic; thus healing spells are the same stat as medicine (wisdom), while control spells are the same stat as persuasion/intimidation/etc (charisma). This is a bit of a problem for spells that make gross physical changes to the world (fireball, move terrain, etc) as they'd logically be strength, and Conan the Wizard isn't really our mental image, but it's probably the origin of the stat basis for at least some classes -- a lot of clerical spells really do relate to insight, medicine, or perception, and a lot of bard spells really do relate to deception, intimidation, or persuasion.
If people want a balanced game, the power of spellcasters - especially at higher levels - needs to be curtailed dramatically, by at least an order of magnitude, and spellcasters need to stop being utterly worthless without their spells. They tried this in Fourth Edition, and we all know how well that went.
Mental stats often get associated with personality, leading to confusion or different interpretations—an introverted wizard, a foolish rogue, etc. Psychologists in the 19th and 20th centuries developed lists of people's attributes. Some lists comprised 16 to 64 attributes, sometimes including variations in the attributes to describe mood changes. Eventually, the list was reduced to five attributes commonly used in personality tests, such as the Big Five, which would only benefit roleplaying. One lesson from this analysis was that separating attributes from each other was difficult and sometimes impossible. Abstract thought, imagination, reasoning, etc., were identified but correlated.
Our Sacred Scores were in the early versions of Chainmail. Searching through the 1970s books can clarify their definitions and uniqueness, especially for the mental stats of INT, WIS, and CHA. Intelligence is more about facts, logical thinking, and using information. Wisdom is more about understanding others and the world. Charisma was more about charm and influence. All three are needed to describe a person, and a person applies knowledge using each mental stat. Using the skills, 5e has come a long way to add depth to the Sacred Scores, so they have more value.
Another apocryphal understanding about the Sacred Scores is that all six might have been sourced from the original Captain Marvel or SHAZAM.
S The wisdom of Solomon; Wisdom H The strength of Hercules; Strength A The stamina of Atlas; Constitution Z The power of Zeus; Intelligence A The courage of Achilles; Charisma M The speed of Mercury. Dexterity
The list includes six characters who might clarify the definition of the Sacred Scores.
If people want a balanced game, the power of spellcasters - especially at higher levels - needs to be curtailed dramatically, by at least an order of magnitude, and spellcasters need to stop being utterly worthless without their spells. They tried this in Fourth Edition, and we all know how well that went.
It depends on how you define balanced. In this case, what I'm mostly thinking about is niche protection. If you make a charisma-based spellcaster mostly good at the things charismatic characters are already good at, charisma was probably already your niche so it doesn't matter if you have some spells that can invalidate skills. Same for wisdom. Intelligence is a problem because the core niche of int (absent magic/etc) is scholarship and technical skills, which are just not super relevant to adventuring.
Intelligence is a problem because the core niche of int (absent magic/etc) is scholarship and technical skills, which are just not super relevant to adventuring.
Also critical thinking and problem solving, but those are things that are typically still left to the player in D&D, rather than a roll of the dice.
Also critical thinking and problem solving, but those are things that are typically still left to the player in D&D, rather than a roll of the dice.
A reasonable point (arguably critical thinking is wisdom, depending on the use case). I think in terms of "character skill can be replaced by player skill", high player skill can frequently compensate for low character skill in Intelligence and Charisma, occasionally for Wisdom (particularly Insight), and pretty much never for the other three.
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
The Six Sacred Scores are about as well defined in the PHB/DMG as they can be. They've long been a mediocre-at-best fit for the needs of the game, but they're a sacred cow so we're stuck with them.
As casting stats, specifically, they are not defined at all and serve very poorly in that regard. There is no difference between casting with any of the given stats, all spellcasting is mechanically identical and until that changes there's no reason to differentiate between casting stats.
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
I am increasingly of the opinion that the idea of a "Casting Stat" itself is the core problem. That your abilities as a spellcaster are tied solely to something that fundamentally has no bearing whatsoever on your magic, and because of that your character is always shoehorned into one of a small number of nichey, narrow, shitty overplayed tropes with absolutely zero room for creativity or fresh takes.
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
I wouldn't. I would likely reconfigure the system to try and function solely off proficiency bonus, or otherwise divorce spellcasting from individual Sacred Scores.
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
No. Because I'm fed up with every casting class being shoehorned into the same dumb stupid lame tropes every single time because they're all forced to assume the same bloody stat spreads.
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Anything I'd like to know would likely be considered irrelevant to anyone still married to the Six Sacred Scores. So nah, guess not.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Melee power was divorced from one stat the moment they created finesse weapons. Just because casting stats are divorced from class wouldn’t divorce skill checks from stats so a party of just Dex/Con Characters will struggle. Also very important flaw of the game is Wisdom stat that it doesn’t make the Character Wise. In game Wisdom Stat is Perception and Intuition. If you lack Knowledge which is represented by Intelligence you can’t can actually be a Wise cleric. You are an intuitive cleric. Without knowledge there is no understanding. Real world wisdom requires knowledge. The mental stats are the strangest thing ever to me when I really think about them. This is the main reason I couldn’t make an unbiased poll without getting input first.
the post i was responding to was talking about divorcing damage compeletly from attributes. Dex is still an attribute. They were reccomending power be based on PB, and you can be whatever type of stat you want for a class without losing any power.
Also, the point isnt that they want attributes tied for attribute sake, they want them tied to a certain attribute because it fits into some sort of fantasy trope. Real world wisdom is mostly about intuition, perception. A wise man understands the way the world works, and the nature of people. They speak in parables. Knowing lots of things doesnt really represent wisdom. The wise person applies knowledge better, they have better judgement. Its not really the same thing.
Trope wise, is the priest highly intellegient? can they easily aquire knowledge and synthesize information, see patterns? or do they know whats going on, and show strong judgement. i have known many highly intelligent people who were not wise, and many wise people who wouldnt be described as highly intelligent.
foolish wizards are common tropes, mad scientists, academics who blew themselves up, foolish shaman, or foolish priest, less so. Corrupt maybe, but not foolish
I’m not going to start a pointless argument defending Yurie’s stance even though I agree with him. I will point out that your understanding of real world Wisdom is very flawed. Wisdom- the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment. I’m sorry you can’t a Wise without experience or knowledge. The mental stats make no sense.
intelligence is not really all about having knowledge or experience though, intelligence is the ability to assimilate/create knowledge. IQ tests are designed to try to test reasoning, understanding, not test your knowledge or experience.
learning tons of facts isnt going to give you a high IQ, or best represent your intelligence. A highly intelligent person can exist without knowledge or really much relative experience. Intelligence and Wisdom represents different aspects of mental acuity.
intelligence is how easily you can learn, or aquire knowledge.
wisdom is about the soundness of your decisions, judgement, your ability to figure out what information is important.
you can have a high IQ(be highly intelligent), and love smoking crack and playing russian roulette. Thats not qualities that people would say represents being wise.
Also critical thinking and problem solving, but those are things that are typically still left to the player in D&D, rather than a roll of the dice.
A reasonable point (arguably critical thinking is wisdom, depending on the use case). I think in terms of "character skill can be replaced by player skill", high player skill can frequently compensate for low character skill in Intelligence and Charisma, occasionally for Wisdom (particularly Insight), and pretty much never for the other three.
CHA is more table-dependent; some DM's will let roleplay carry a social check, some will only give advantage, and some will leave it up to the dice.
Edit: And I was more talking in the opposite direction; when a DM presents a practical puzzle for the PC's to solve they're unlikely to let you try and roll INT to see if your character can deduce the answer to a sphinx's riddle or somesuch. Which is good for player engagement and sense of accomplishment, but also part of the reason why INT can be seen as lackluster. The shift away from skill points didn't help, but that's the kind of thing that's swings it hard the other way and encourages people to favor it above others for your optional spread.
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Yes. Intelligence is casting from knowledge one has gained through whatever means, Wisdom is casting through one’s connection and attunement to forces from outside of themselves, and Charisma is casting through sheer force of will.
All except Warlocks. Warlocks could (and IMO should) potentially use any of the three casting stats. Either they have gained arcane knowledge from their patron that allows them to manipulate the weave (Int), they directly channel their patron’s power (Wis), or they have managed to get their patron to grant them inherent power that they can then use (Cha).
I would leave everything as is except give Warlocks their choice of spellcasting stat to best suit however their players envision that magic to manifest.
Yes to a degree. Any of them, and for the reasons I outlined in #1.👆
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
The Six Sacred Scores are about as well defined in the PHB/DMG as they can be. They've long been a mediocre-at-best fit for the needs of the game, but they're a sacred cow so we're stuck with them.
As casting stats, specifically, they are not defined at all and serve very poorly in that regard. There is no difference between casting with any of the given stats, all spellcasting is mechanically identical and until that changes there's no reason to differentiate between casting stats.
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
I am increasingly of the opinion that the idea of a "Casting Stat" itself is the core problem. That your abilities as a spellcaster are tied solely to something that fundamentally has no bearing whatsoever on your magic, and because of that your character is always shoehorned into one of a small number of nichey, narrow, shitty overplayed tropes with absolutely zero room for creativity or fresh takes.
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
I wouldn't. I would likely reconfigure the system to try and function solely off proficiency bonus, or otherwise divorce spellcasting from individual Sacred Scores.
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
No. Because I'm fed up with every casting class being shoehorned into the same dumb stupid lame tropes every single time because they're all forced to assume the same bloody stat spreads.
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Anything I'd like to know would likely be considered irrelevant to anyone still married to the Six Sacred Scores. So nah, guess not.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Melee power was divorced from one stat the moment they created finesse weapons. Just because casting stats are divorced from class wouldn’t divorce skill checks from stats so a party of just Dex/Con Characters will struggle. Also very important flaw of the game is Wisdom stat that it doesn’t make the Character Wise. In game Wisdom Stat is Perception and Intuition. If you lack Knowledge which is represented by Intelligence you can’t can actually be a Wise cleric. You are an intuitive cleric. Without knowledge there is no understanding. Real world wisdom requires knowledge. The mental stats are the strangest thing ever to me when I really think about them. This is the main reason I couldn’t make an unbiased poll without getting input first.
the post i was responding to was talking about divorcing damage compeletly from attributes. Dex is still an attribute. They were reccomending power be based on PB, and you can be whatever type of stat you want for a class without losing any power.
Also, the point isnt that they want attributes tied for attribute sake, they want them tied to a certain attribute because it fits into some sort of fantasy trope. Real world wisdom is mostly about intuition, perception. A wise man understands the way the world works, and the nature of people. They speak in parables. Knowing lots of things doesnt really represent wisdom. The wise person applies knowledge better, they have better judgement. Its not really the same thing.
Trope wise, is the priest highly intellegient? can they easily aquire knowledge and synthesize information, see patterns? or do they know whats going on, and show strong judgement. i have known many highly intelligent people who were not wise, and many wise people who wouldnt be described as highly intelligent.
foolish wizards are common tropes, mad scientists, academics who blew themselves up, foolish shaman, or foolish priest, less so. Corrupt maybe, but not foolish
I’m not going to start a pointless argument defending Yurie’s stance even though I agree with him. I will point out that your understanding of real world Wisdom is very flawed. Wisdom- the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment. I’m sorry you can’t a Wise without experience or knowledge. The mental stats make no sense.
intelligence is not really all about having knowledge or experience though, intelligence is the ability to assimilate/create knowledge. IQ tests are designed to try to test reasoning, understanding, not test your knowledge or experience.
learning tons of facts isnt going to give you a high IQ, or best represent your intelligence. A highly intelligent person can exist without knowledge or really much relative experience. Intelligence and Wisdom represents different aspects of mental acuity.
intelligence is how easily you can learn, or aquire knowledge.
wisdom is about the soundness of your decisions, judgement, your ability to figure out what information is important.
you can have a high IQ(be highly intelligent), and love smoking crack and playing russian roulette. Thats not qualities that people would say represents being wise.
You are making my point for me. Real world IQ test don’t work all the time because they are biased. The people making the test understand that now. In DnD Int does represent your knowledge, but Wis does not represent your judgement. That is literally the point I was trying to make. The games mental stats don’t make sense.
Do you think that the casting stats are well defined in the PHB or DMG? What is the actual difference from between casting with Int or Wis or Cha?
Do you believe the the Classes all have their appropriate casting stat(s) based on your understanding of the casting stats?
Which Casting Stat(s) would you assign each Class?
Would another class having a stat that differs from your assignment make you dislike the class? Which one(s)? Why?
What other general spell casting questions would you like polled?
Yes. Intelligence is casting from knowledge one has gained through whatever means, Wisdom is casting through one’s connection and attunement to forces from outside of themselves, and Charisma is casting through sheer force of will.
All except Warlocks. Warlocks could (and IMO should) potentially use any of the three casting stats. Either they have gained arcane knowledge from their patron that allows them to manipulate the weave (Int), they directly channel their patron’s power (Wis), or they have managed to get their patron to grant them inherent power that they can then use (Cha).
I would leave everything as is except give Warlocks their choice of spellcasting stat to best suit however their players envision that magic to manifest.
Yes to a degree. Any of them, and for the reasons I outlined in #1.👆
None that I can think of at this time.
The only thing I will challenge you on is Cha. The books state that willpower is Wisdom. So casting with Cha can’t be force of will.
The books state that willpower is Wisdom. So casting with Cha can’t be force of will.
Where is that stated? I found references to Wisdom being "awareness, intuition, insight" (under Determine Ability Scores), "measuring perception and insight" (under Using Ability Scores), and "Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition" (under Using Each Ability).
Charisma by comparison under the same sections is defined as "confidence, eloquence, leadership", "measuring force of personality", and "charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality" respectively.
Along these lines I would think of Charisma as how you can impose your will on others (lying, intimidating etc.), whereas Wisdom is how you might recognise that being done to you (realise someone is lying, that they can't back up their threats etc.).
Charisma isn't a perfect fit for force of will, but nothing else is better really; having a forceful personality, or having force of will, usually means confidence/certainty, though in a Sorcerer's case it might be more about the natural "presence"; in so far as that could inform character it might be that a Sorcerer without any social skill proficiencies may just have a forceful personality (just not a convincing one) or they might seem "intense".
I should clarify I haven't done an exhaustive search for where in the rules the ability scores are defined, these are just the sections that stood out to me.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
casters aren't really shoehorned relatively speaking, because they only strongly need one stat, don't have a lot of great feats, they'll probably have 20 in two stats. If they were divorce it from casting power, they may as well divorce melee power from a stat.
then we'd probably have dex/con being two highest stats for most players. str int wis chr would be about what other skills/flavor you want.
basically they tied power to the stats they wanted strongly linked to the class. DnD is actually trying to create fantasy tropes, not a freeform character builder. They want strong barbarians, intelligent wizards, wise clerics.
but I do think the system could be improved so that it isnt that you never touch another stat until your max main stat.
Which seems a lot like "we need to stop CHA from being a dump-stat ... so lets take these two different concepts of a Magic-User and split them apart into two different classes whose names are both things that overlap with the Magic-User."
Melee power was divorced from one stat the moment they created finesse weapons.
Just because casting stats are divorced from class wouldn’t divorce skill checks from stats so a party of just Dex/Con Characters will struggle.
Also very important flaw of the game is Wisdom stat that it doesn’t make the Character Wise. In game Wisdom Stat is Perception and Intuition. If you lack Knowledge which is represented by Intelligence you can’t can actually be a Wise cleric. You are an intuitive cleric. Without knowledge there is no understanding. Real world wisdom requires knowledge. The mental stats are the strangest thing ever to me when I really think about them. This is the main reason I couldn’t make an unbiased poll without getting input first.
i dont think so, i think when they made dnd they had a very strong idea of themes and tropes built in. If you read the phb, picking a class is heavily promoted as the identity or fantasy of the class over the mechanics.
So the problem is wizard represents the fantasy of a really smart guy who studies a lot, and a lot of players arent into that magical fantasy, a lot of people like the idea of unexpectedly developing powers, or it being about your blood, or you being special.
Sorcerer gets to play that type of archetype, whereas wizard is an academic brain type. They want to be the xmen, not tony stark or lex luthor.
The difference here, Gwar, is that you consider a "strong idea of themes and tropes" to be a positive trait, a Feature. For many of the game's newer players, A "strong idea of themes and tropes" is a negative trait, a Drawback left lingering from the game's past baggage. That forcing each and every member of a class to conform as hard as possible to that class's Core Ideal, to the active and explicit detriment of character, roleplaying, and player enjoyment, is holding the game back rather than propping it up.
There's been arguments for months now about how a significant percentage of players view the warlock's Default Fantasy/Tropes of "a guy who uses sleaze, smarm, and sex appeal to somehow hoodwink a planar entity into giving them powers while yet also getting a disastrously bad deal in exchange for those powers" is A.) not even remotely true for a very sizeable number of perfectly valid "warlock" character concepts, B.) icky to play, and C.) self-contradictory (if the warlock's Pact is always CATASTROPHICALLY TERRIBLE for the warlock the way Warlock CHA Purists claim they must be, with terms that no sane person would EVER accept, why do you need an extremely strong
sex drive'force of personality' to convince the entity to saddle you with this hilariously terrible-for-you deal? They should be leaping at the chance to get you so firmly over a barrel). Has this not registered with purists at all? The class's whole "awful terrible Faustian baregain" schtick is actively detrimental to a great many class concepts the mechanical framework would otherwise allow players to execute.The same can be said of many other classes, if not to quite as clear and obvious an extent. The mere existence of Oath of Vengenace flies in the face of the "SHINING RADIANT KNIGHT OF HOLY PURITY AND DIVINE GOODNESS AND LIGHT" that the "class fantasy" spells out for dingdongs. Rogues are memed on across the Internet as smarmy nasty party-screwing dickwads universally afflicted with actue involuntary kleptomania, but every subclass except Thief tells a different story, and even the thief is presented as a canny professional rather than a sticky-fingered ass bandit who'd risk jail time for two copper buttons off the flaps of a man's long johns.
Players have moved beyond the boring, crappy, overplayed and over-memed Fantasy Stereotypes the game keeps trying to perpetuate. So why keep perpetuating them?
Please do not contact or message me.
the post i was responding to was talking about divorcing damage compeletly from attributes. Dex is still an attribute. They were reccomending power be based on PB, and you can be whatever type of stat you want for a class without losing any power.
Also, the point isnt that they want attributes tied for attribute sake, they want them tied to a certain attribute because it fits into some sort of fantasy trope. Real world wisdom is mostly about intuition, perception. A wise man understands the way the world works, and the nature of people. They speak in parables. Knowing lots of things doesnt really represent wisdom. The wise person applies knowledge better, they have better judgement. Its not really the same thing.
Trope wise, is the priest highly intellegient? can they easily aquire knowledge and synthesize information, see patterns? or do they know whats going on, and show strong judgement. i have known many highly intelligent people who were not wise, and many wise people who wouldnt be described as highly intelligent.
foolish wizards are common tropes, mad scientists, academics who blew themselves up, foolish shaman, or foolish priest, less so. Corrupt maybe, but not foolish
I’m not going to start a pointless argument defending Yurie’s stance even though I agree with him. I will point out that your understanding of real world Wisdom is very flawed.
Wisdom- the quality of having experience, knowledge, and good judgment.
I’m sorry you can’t a Wise without experience or knowledge. The mental stats make no sense.
From a pure game balance standpoint, I think spellcasting should use the same trait as you'd use to accomplish the same thing without magic; thus healing spells are the same stat as medicine (wisdom), while control spells are the same stat as persuasion/intimidation/etc (charisma). This is a bit of a problem for spells that make gross physical changes to the world (fireball, move terrain, etc) as they'd logically be strength, and Conan the Wizard isn't really our mental image, but it's probably the origin of the stat basis for at least some classes -- a lot of clerical spells really do relate to insight, medicine, or perception, and a lot of bard spells really do relate to deception, intimidation, or persuasion.
If people want a balanced game, the power of spellcasters - especially at higher levels - needs to be curtailed dramatically, by at least an order of magnitude, and spellcasters need to stop being utterly worthless without their spells. They tried this in Fourth Edition, and we all know how well that went.
Please do not contact or message me.
Mental stats often get associated with personality, leading to confusion or different interpretations—an introverted wizard, a foolish rogue, etc. Psychologists in the 19th and 20th centuries developed lists of people's attributes. Some lists comprised 16 to 64 attributes, sometimes including variations in the attributes to describe mood changes. Eventually, the list was reduced to five attributes commonly used in personality tests, such as the Big Five, which would only benefit roleplaying. One lesson from this analysis was that separating attributes from each other was difficult and sometimes impossible. Abstract thought, imagination, reasoning, etc., were identified but correlated.
Our Sacred Scores were in the early versions of Chainmail. Searching through the 1970s books can clarify their definitions and uniqueness, especially for the mental stats of INT, WIS, and CHA. Intelligence is more about facts, logical thinking, and using information. Wisdom is more about understanding others and the world. Charisma was more about charm and influence. All three are needed to describe a person, and a person applies knowledge using each mental stat. Using the skills, 5e has come a long way to add depth to the Sacred Scores, so they have more value.
Another apocryphal understanding about the Sacred Scores is that all six might have been sourced from the original Captain Marvel or SHAZAM.
S The wisdom of Solomon; Wisdom
H The strength of Hercules; Strength
A The stamina of Atlas; Constitution
Z The power of Zeus; Intelligence
A The courage of Achilles; Charisma
M The speed of Mercury. Dexterity
The list includes six characters who might clarify the definition of the Sacred Scores.
It depends on how you define balanced. In this case, what I'm mostly thinking about is niche protection. If you make a charisma-based spellcaster mostly good at the things charismatic characters are already good at, charisma was probably already your niche so it doesn't matter if you have some spells that can invalidate skills. Same for wisdom. Intelligence is a problem because the core niche of int (absent magic/etc) is scholarship and technical skills, which are just not super relevant to adventuring.
Also critical thinking and problem solving, but those are things that are typically still left to the player in D&D, rather than a roll of the dice.
A reasonable point (arguably critical thinking is wisdom, depending on the use case). I think in terms of "character skill can be replaced by player skill", high player skill can frequently compensate for low character skill in Intelligence and Charisma, occasionally for Wisdom (particularly Insight), and pretty much never for the other three.
intelligence is not really all about having knowledge or experience though, intelligence is the ability to assimilate/create knowledge. IQ tests are designed to try to test reasoning, understanding, not test your knowledge or experience.
learning tons of facts isnt going to give you a high IQ, or best represent your intelligence. A highly intelligent person can exist without knowledge or really much relative experience. Intelligence and Wisdom represents different aspects of mental acuity.
intelligence is how easily you can learn, or aquire knowledge.
wisdom is about the soundness of your decisions, judgement, your ability to figure out what information is important.
you can have a high IQ(be highly intelligent), and love smoking crack and playing russian roulette. Thats not qualities that people would say represents being wise.
CHA is more table-dependent; some DM's will let roleplay carry a social check, some will only give advantage, and some will leave it up to the dice.
Edit: And I was more talking in the opposite direction; when a DM presents a practical puzzle for the PC's to solve they're unlikely to let you try and roll INT to see if your character can deduce the answer to a sphinx's riddle or somesuch. Which is good for player engagement and sense of accomplishment, but also part of the reason why INT can be seen as lackluster. The shift away from skill points didn't help, but that's the kind of thing that's swings it hard the other way and encourages people to favor it above others for your optional spread.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
You are making my point for me. Real world IQ test don’t work all the time because they are biased. The people making the test understand that now.
In DnD Int does represent your knowledge, but Wis does not represent your judgement. That is literally the point I was trying to make. The games mental stats don’t make sense.
The only thing I will challenge you on is Cha. The books state that willpower is Wisdom. So casting with Cha can’t be force of will.
Charisma is the ability to impose your will on others, Wisdom is the ability to resist being controlled.
Where is that stated? I found references to Wisdom being "awareness, intuition, insight" (under Determine Ability Scores), "measuring perception and insight" (under Using Ability Scores), and "Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition" (under Using Each Ability).
Charisma by comparison under the same sections is defined as "confidence, eloquence, leadership", "measuring force of personality", and "charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality" respectively.
Along these lines I would think of Charisma as how you can impose your will on others (lying, intimidating etc.), whereas Wisdom is how you might recognise that being done to you (realise someone is lying, that they can't back up their threats etc.).
Charisma isn't a perfect fit for force of will, but nothing else is better really; having a forceful personality, or having force of will, usually means confidence/certainty, though in a Sorcerer's case it might be more about the natural "presence"; in so far as that could inform character it might be that a Sorcerer without any social skill proficiencies may just have a forceful personality (just not a convincing one) or they might seem "intense".
I should clarify I haven't done an exhaustive search for where in the rules the ability scores are defined, these are just the sections that stood out to me.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.