Both tables are under Using Ability Scores in the Dungeon Master's Guide, though I'm not sure how useful they are here.
The first table supposedly is meant to summarise what's in the Player's Handbook, yet it's rather unhelpfully different to what's in the PHB, as that explicitly describes Wisdom as "perception and intuition" while the DMG contradicts it with "perception and willpower" which isn't the same.
If the first table is supposed to summarise the PHB then it seems like any discrepancies should be ignored as mistakes, because surely the DMG is basically telling us that the PHB is the more authoritative source on what the scores are?
Meanwhile what the second table says about "effects assaulting your willpower" likewise seems a bit unhelpful as just because something is assaulting your willpower doesn't mean that you resist it using your willpower, same as if you're being punched in the stomach you don't offer up more stomach, you get out of the way, block etc.
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Honestly I think the emphasis on WIS saves is a holdover from 3.5 when the WIS mod was applied to Will saves iirc and they ought to distribute them more widely between the 3 stats now.
Both tables are under Using Ability Scores in the Dungeon Master's Guide, though I'm not sure how useful they are here.
The first table supposedly is meant to summarise what's in the Player's Handbook, yet it's rather unhelpfully different to what's in the PHB, as that explicitly describes Wisdom as "perception and intuition" while the DMG contradicts it with "perception and willpower" which isn't the same.
If the first table is supposed to summarise the PHB then it seems like any discrepancies should be ignored as mistakes, because surely the DMG is basically telling us that the PHB is the more authoritative source on what the scores are?
Meanwhile what the second table says about "effects assaulting your willpower" likewise seems a bit unhelpful as just because something is assaulting your willpower doesn't mean that you resist it using your willpower, same as if you're being punched in the stomach you don't offer up more stomach, you get out of the way, block etc.
So you decided that the DMG should be ignored because it doesn’t help your argument. Lol
The DMG is one of the core books. They have had 10 years to errata this if it was untrue.
Wisdom equals Willpower. It says it in the books in plain text. Until they write it in a book saying otherwise it is true.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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So you decided that the DMG should be ignored because it doesn’t help your argument. Lol
No, I read the sentence where the DMG literally tells us the table is meant to be a summary of what the Player's Handbook says:
The Player’s Handbook includes examples of what each ability score is used for. The Ability Checks table summarizes that material for easy reference.
If the table says something the Player's Handbook doesn't then it isn't an accurate summary; since it tells us the PHB is the authoritative source, then that's what we're supposed to go by. If you encounter a discrepancy in an appendix or glossary, you don't declare it more canonical than its source.
Most likely during 5e's development Willpower still existed at first and was dropped later, but they didn't correct all references to it. If the table is meant to be a summary of the PHB it should read perception and intuition as the PHB does.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Both tables are under Using Ability Scores in the Dungeon Master's Guide, though I'm not sure how useful they are here.
The first table supposedly is meant to summarise what's in the Player's Handbook, yet it's rather unhelpfully different to what's in the PHB, as that explicitly describes Wisdom as "perception and intuition" while the DMG contradicts it with "perception and willpower" which isn't the same.
If the first table is supposed to summarise the PHB then it seems like any discrepancies should be ignored as mistakes, because surely the DMG is basically telling us that the PHB is the more authoritative source on what the scores are?
Meanwhile what the second table says about "effects assaulting your willpower" likewise seems a bit unhelpful as just because something is assaulting your willpower doesn't mean that you resist it using your willpower, same as if you're being punched in the stomach you don't offer up more stomach, you get out of the way, block etc.
So you decided that the DMG should be ignored because it doesn’t help your argument. Lol
The DMG is one of the core books. They have had 10 years to errata this if it was untrue.
Wisdom equals Willpower. It says it in the books in plain text. Until they write it in a book saying otherwise it is true.
No, I’m ignoring the DMG because it’s wrong. It’s sposta refer to what’s in the PHB, I’ma go right to the source, the PHB, where it says something different. That means the table in the DMG is incorrect.
Another apocryphal understanding about the Sacred Scores is that all six might have been sourced from the original Captain Marvel or SHAZAM.
You got the two most relevant ones backward, though (Solomon's contribution might be called WIsdom, but it is not Wisdom in D&D terms; and Zeus's contribution is not Intelligence). And in terms of D&D, it has two Constitution scores.
(explanations from Captain Marvel's wikipedia page)
S The wisdom of Solomon;
"The Wisdom of Solomon grants the individual with several abilities, including perfect memory, strategic combat skills, exceptional mathematical aptitude, charisma in interpersonal interactions, limited clairvoyance for acquiring arcane knowledge and intuitive insights, as well as a natural fluency in all languages."
This is a mix of Intelligence and Charisma.
H The strength of Hercules;
I feel like Atlas is stronger than Hercules, but this is what Captain Marvel says it is: Strength.
A The stamina of Atlas;
And yeah, Stamina/Constitution. But it's not so simple, because look at what the Courage of Achilles is, below.
Z The power of Zeus;
"Zeus's 'power' attribute fasciliates the transformation that grants Billy access to the full range of his powers, including the ability to shoot bursts of electricity and lightning. He also possesses a limited gift of teleportation, allowing him to effortlessly travel to and from the Rock of Eternity with a single thought. Notably, the Power of Zeus empowers him with the potential to use magic and cast spells."
Power, not Intelligence. I don't think anyone ever accused Zeus of being smart. With regard to this debate: a BRPG style "Power" stat, or Willpower. This is the trait that everyone would use for their spellcasting ability score, if we were to use SHAZAM as our "SIMPLE" style acronym.
A The courage of Achilles;
"The Courage of Achilles grants Billy peak physical defenses, rendering him nearly invulnerable. This heightened level of invulnerability provides significant protection against physical harm. Additionally, the empowerment grants Billy resistance to various elements, including heat, force, disease, and the effects of aging. This attribute allow him to withstand extreme conditions and maintain his health and vitality against formidable challenges."
This is also Constitution, in D&D terms. Achilles was ALSO a well liked leader, so I think we COULD call it the "Charisma of Achilles." But we'd be intentionally changing it from the source material.
So you decided that the DMG should be ignored because it doesn’t help your argument. Lol
No, I read the sentence where the DMG literally tells us the table is meant to be a summary of what the Player's Handbook says:
The Player’s Handbook includes examples of what each ability score is used for. The Ability Checks table summarizes that material for easy reference.
If the table says something the Player's Handbook doesn't then it isn't an accurate summary; since it tells us the PHB is the authoritative source, then that's what we're supposed to go by. If you encounter a discrepancy in an appendix or glossary, you don't declare it more canonical than its source.
Most likely during 5e's development Willpower still existed at first and was dropped later, but they didn't correct all references to it. If the table is meant to be a summary of the PHB it should read perception and intuition as the PHB does.
Both tables are under Using Ability Scores in the Dungeon Master's Guide, though I'm not sure how useful they are here.
The first table supposedly is meant to summarise what's in the Player's Handbook, yet it's rather unhelpfully different to what's in the PHB, as that explicitly describes Wisdom as "perception and intuition" while the DMG contradicts it with "perception and willpower" which isn't the same.
If the first table is supposed to summarise the PHB then it seems like any discrepancies should be ignored as mistakes, because surely the DMG is basically telling us that the PHB is the more authoritative source on what the scores are?
Meanwhile what the second table says about "effects assaulting your willpower" likewise seems a bit unhelpful as just because something is assaulting your willpower doesn't mean that you resist it using your willpower, same as if you're being punched in the stomach you don't offer up more stomach, you get out of the way, block etc.
So you decided that the DMG should be ignored because it doesn’t help your argument. Lol
The DMG is one of the core books. They have had 10 years to errata this if it was untrue.
Wisdom equals Willpower. It says it in the books in plain text. Until they write it in a book saying otherwise it is true.
No, I’m ignoring the DMG because it’s wrong. It’s sposta refer to what’s in the PHB, I’ma go right to the source, the PHB, where it says something different. That means the table in the DMG is incorrect.
Charisma does not represent willpower because the books don’t say it does. I can also show you an example from an adventure that uses Wisdom to represent willpower. It even uses those exact words. So I don’t believe the DMG made a mistake. Also no where ever is Charisma stated to represent will power or as many like to say “force of will.” That is head canon that people try to use to justify something that isn’t explained well. From the adventure Giant’s of Star Forge
This is a contest of willpower, not fortitude. The crashing waterfall is almost deafening, and the sensation of being encased in mud is unpleasant. At the end of a mud-encased competitor’s turn, that competitor must make a DC 14 Wisdom saving throw.
This is a contest of willpower, not fortitude. The crashing waterfall is almost deafening, and the sensation of being encased in mud is unpleasant. At the end of a mud-encased competitor’s turn, that competitor must make a DC 14 Wisdom saving throw.
So… your evidence is now a summary of something that doesn't match what it's supposed to be a summary of, and flavour text from an adventure module? It's not a strong case, certainly a far cry from the absolute certainty you keep ascribing to it; if willpower is such a fundamental part of what Wisdom is then why isn't it mentioned in the basic rules where Wisdom is most fundamentally defined?
In fact Quar1on's question is highly relevant; there's plenty of room to argue the difference between willpower as in resisting something, and willpower (or more specifically force of will) in imposing or pursuing something. The fact that Charisma governs skills like Intimidation and Persuasion means that it's already involved in imposing your will on others via force of personality etc.
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This is a contest of willpower, not fortitude. The crashing waterfall is almost deafening, and the sensation of being encased in mud is unpleasant. At the end of a mud-encased competitor’s turn, that competitor must make a DC 14 Wisdom saving throw.
So… your evidence is now a summary of something that doesn't match what it's supposed to be a summary of, and flavour text from an adventure module? It's not a strong case, certainly a far cry from the absolute certainty you keep ascribing to it; if willpower is such a fundamental part of what Wisdom is then why isn't it mentioned in the basic rules where Wisdom is most fundamentally defined?
In fact Quar1on's question is highly relevant; there's plenty of room to argue the difference between willpower as in resisting something, and willpower (or more specifically force of will) in imposing or pursuing something. The fact that Charisma governs skills like Intimidation and Persuasion means that it's already involved in imposing your will on others via force of personality etc.
So what I find funny is that even if you are calling my evidence weak, you can’t show any evidence of Charisma ever being used to represent force of will or willpower in any of the books. If so I will concede. I have no problem admitting I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen it. Please show me. If not I have to believe what is in writing and anything you are saying is just your head canon that is not supported by the books. Charisma says it deals with influencing others which different than willpower. I gave you 3 examples from two books that say Wisdom is willpower. Show me once from any book were Charisma is said to represent willpower. You only need one example.
So what I find funny is that even if you are calling my evidence weak, you can’t show any evidence of Charisma ever being used to represent force of will or willpower in any of the books.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
So what I find funny is that even if you are calling my evidence weak, you can’t show any evidence of Charisma ever being used to represent force of will or willpower in any of the books.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
Confidence is frequently considered willpower.
Close but no cigar
Confidence
the feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust.
So what I find funny is that even if you are calling my evidence weak, you can’t show any evidence of Charisma ever being used to represent force of will or willpower in any of the books.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
Confidence is frequently considered willpower.
Close but no cigar
Confidence
the feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust.
thats a different application of confidence. Thats confidence in the, "You have my confidense" context, not the confidence in self aspect.
basically they are saying willpower might be related to self confidence. based on this aspect of willpower; "also: strong determination that allows one to do something difficult"
is will power the strength of your convictions? because that is self confidence, and also why the phb says paladin is charisma based.
So what I find funny is that even if you are calling my evidence weak, you can’t show any evidence of Charisma ever being used to represent force of will or willpower in any of the books.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
Confidence is frequently considered willpower.
Close but no cigar
Confidence
the feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust.
thats a different application of confidence. Thats confidence in the, "You have my confidense" context, not the confidence in self aspect.
basically they are saying willpower might be related to self confidence. based on this aspect of willpower; "also: strong determination that allows one to do something difficult"
is will power the strength of your convictions? because that is self confidence, and also why the phb says paladin is charisma based.
The stretch isn’t going to work.
Confidence is the believing a thing will happen.
Willpower is forcing a thing to happen.
One can be confident in their willpower, but they are not the same. Also the books use the noun version “confidence” not that adjective “confident.” It really doesn’t matter sense being confident doesn’t not equal having willpower. Admittedly a person with strong willpower is usually confident, but a confident person doesn’t have to have willpower at all.
Forcing a thing to happen is charisma. Wisdom is about your resistance.
Please find any definition to prove that statement. I would be happy to concede this argument, but no one has found any evidence. Just their opinions. So far the books state the opposite of your opinion. So please present evidence.
Please find any definition to prove that statement. I would be happy to concede this argument, but no one has found any evidence. Just their opinions. So far the books state the opposite of your opinion. So please present evidence.
Except they don't "state the opposite", they use the word willpower questionably at best; you also seem to keep moving the goalposts on what is at best a distraction from what the topic was supposed to be about, which is what people's preferred scores are for each class. You're arguing that Wisdom is the only ability score that could ever possibly represent willpower, but that's not what you've shown, you've shown Wisdom can represent willpower some of the time, which is a far cry from it being the only ability score that can.
Willpower is a determination to see an outcome, or to resist one you don't want (essentially opposite sides of the same thing), but Charisma in 5e very clearly overlaps with that because Wisdom can only be used to resist, whereas Charisma can actually be used to impose. Wisdom skills are mostly passive, they're for noticing things, not doing things as such, but Charisma skills specifically enable a character to get outcomes that they want.
The use of the word willpower in Giants of the Star Forge for example is clearly because they're treating the test like a save against being frightened (which is typically a Wisdom saving throw) because it's to avoid flinching/avoiding reacting instinctively. But you've yet to demonstrate how Wisdom is used to represent sheer force of will, i.e- imposing your will on others, which is what most people have argued is why Sorcerers ended up with Charisma as their spellcasting ability score.
So either both are different forms of willpower, or willpower was never the right word to use to begin with because Charisma might represent something similar but not exactly the same, either way this is all just a massive, pointless distraction because people are as entitled to believe Charisma is suitable for Sorcerers as they were to begin with.
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Both tables are under Using Ability Scores in the Dungeon Master's Guide, though I'm not sure how useful they are here.
The first table supposedly is meant to summarise what's in the Player's Handbook, yet it's rather unhelpfully different to what's in the PHB, as that explicitly describes Wisdom as "perception and intuition" while the DMG contradicts it with "perception and willpower" which isn't the same.
If the first table is supposed to summarise the PHB then it seems like any discrepancies should be ignored as mistakes, because surely the DMG is basically telling us that the PHB is the more authoritative source on what the scores are?
Meanwhile what the second table says about "effects assaulting your willpower" likewise seems a bit unhelpful as just because something is assaulting your willpower doesn't mean that you resist it using your willpower, same as if you're being punched in the stomach you don't offer up more stomach, you get out of the way, block etc.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Honestly I think the emphasis on WIS saves is a holdover from 3.5 when the WIS mod was applied to Will saves iirc and they ought to distribute them more widely between the 3 stats now.
So you decided that the DMG should be ignored because it doesn’t help your argument. Lol
The DMG is one of the core books. They have had 10 years to errata this if it was untrue.
Wisdom equals Willpower. It says it in the books in plain text. Until they write it in a book saying otherwise it is true.
Why can't Wisdom and Charisma both be willpower?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No, I read the sentence where the DMG literally tells us the table is meant to be a summary of what the Player's Handbook says:
If the table says something the Player's Handbook doesn't then it isn't an accurate summary; since it tells us the PHB is the authoritative source, then that's what we're supposed to go by. If you encounter a discrepancy in an appendix or glossary, you don't declare it more canonical than its source.
Most likely during 5e's development Willpower still existed at first and was dropped later, but they didn't correct all references to it. If the table is meant to be a summary of the PHB it should read perception and intuition as the PHB does.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
No, I’m ignoring the DMG because it’s wrong. It’s sposta refer to what’s in the PHB, I’ma go right to the source, the PHB, where it says something different. That means the table in the DMG is incorrect.
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You got the two most relevant ones backward, though (Solomon's contribution might be called WIsdom, but it is not Wisdom in D&D terms; and Zeus's contribution is not Intelligence). And in terms of D&D, it has two Constitution scores.
(explanations from Captain Marvel's wikipedia page)
"The Wisdom of Solomon grants the individual with several abilities, including perfect memory, strategic combat skills, exceptional mathematical aptitude, charisma in interpersonal interactions, limited clairvoyance for acquiring arcane knowledge and intuitive insights, as well as a natural fluency in all languages."
This is a mix of Intelligence and Charisma.
I feel like Atlas is stronger than Hercules, but this is what Captain Marvel says it is: Strength.
And yeah, Stamina/Constitution. But it's not so simple, because look at what the Courage of Achilles is, below.
"Zeus's 'power' attribute fasciliates the transformation that grants Billy access to the full range of his powers, including the ability to shoot bursts of electricity and lightning. He also possesses a limited gift of teleportation, allowing him to effortlessly travel to and from the Rock of Eternity with a single thought. Notably, the Power of Zeus empowers him with the potential to use magic and cast spells."
Power, not Intelligence. I don't think anyone ever accused Zeus of being smart. With regard to this debate: a BRPG style "Power" stat, or Willpower. This is the trait that everyone would use for their spellcasting ability score, if we were to use SHAZAM as our "SIMPLE" style acronym.
"The Courage of Achilles grants Billy peak physical defenses, rendering him nearly invulnerable. This heightened level of invulnerability provides significant protection against physical harm. Additionally, the empowerment grants Billy resistance to various elements, including heat, force, disease, and the effects of aging. This attribute allow him to withstand extreme conditions and maintain his health and vitality against formidable challenges."
This is also Constitution, in D&D terms. Achilles was ALSO a well liked leader, so I think we COULD call it the "Charisma of Achilles." But we'd be intentionally changing it from the source material.
Definitely Dexterity.
Charisma does not represent willpower because the books don’t say it does. I can also show you an example from an adventure that uses Wisdom to represent willpower. It even uses those exact words. So I don’t believe the DMG made a mistake. Also no where ever is Charisma stated to represent will power or as many like to say “force of will.” That is head canon that people try to use to justify something that isn’t explained well.
From the adventure Giant’s of Star Forge
This is a contest of willpower, not fortitude. The crashing waterfall is almost deafening, and the sensation of being encased in mud is unpleasant. At the end of a mud-encased competitor’s turn, that competitor must make a DC 14 Wisdom saving throw.
So… your evidence is now a summary of something that doesn't match what it's supposed to be a summary of, and flavour text from an adventure module? It's not a strong case, certainly a far cry from the absolute certainty you keep ascribing to it; if willpower is such a fundamental part of what Wisdom is then why isn't it mentioned in the basic rules where Wisdom is most fundamentally defined?
In fact Quar1on's question is highly relevant; there's plenty of room to argue the difference between willpower as in resisting something, and willpower (or more specifically force of will) in imposing or pursuing something. The fact that Charisma governs skills like Intimidation and Persuasion means that it's already involved in imposing your will on others via force of personality etc.
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Gah.
The problem is that 'willpower' in common usage actually has more than one meaning. For example, https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/willpower gives two meanings.
The first definition is wisdom in D&D. The second... is often antithetical to being wise.
So what I find funny is that even if you are calling my evidence weak, you can’t show any evidence of Charisma ever being used to represent force of will or willpower in any of the books. If so I will concede. I have no problem admitting I’m wrong, but I haven’t seen it. Please show me. If not I have to believe what is in writing and anything you are saying is just your head canon that is not supported by the books. Charisma says it deals with influencing others which different than willpower. I gave you 3 examples from two books that say Wisdom is willpower. Show me once from any book were Charisma is said to represent willpower. You only need one example.
Charisma: Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality.
Confidence is frequently considered willpower.
Close but no cigar
Confidence
the feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust.
They’re the same thing. The ability to focus on what you want to accomplish (2nd def) retaining that focus despite temptations away from it (1st def).
thats a different application of confidence. Thats confidence in the, "You have my confidense" context, not the confidence in self aspect.
confident
adjective
The stretch isn’t going to work.
Confidence is the believing a thing will happen.
Willpower is forcing a thing to happen.
One can be confident in their willpower, but they are not the same. Also the books use the noun version “confidence” not that adjective “confident.” It really doesn’t matter sense being confident doesn’t not equal having willpower. Admittedly a person with strong willpower is usually confident, but a confident person doesn’t have to have willpower at all.
Forcing a thing to happen is charisma. Wisdom is about your resistance.
How do you "resist" into existence an animated magical sword that deals force damage?
Please find any definition to prove that statement. I would be happy to concede this argument, but no one has found any evidence. Just their opinions. So far the books state the opposite of your opinion. So please present evidence.
Except they don't "state the opposite", they use the word willpower questionably at best; you also seem to keep moving the goalposts on what is at best a distraction from what the topic was supposed to be about, which is what people's preferred scores are for each class. You're arguing that Wisdom is the only ability score that could ever possibly represent willpower, but that's not what you've shown, you've shown Wisdom can represent willpower some of the time, which is a far cry from it being the only ability score that can.
Willpower is a determination to see an outcome, or to resist one you don't want (essentially opposite sides of the same thing), but Charisma in 5e very clearly overlaps with that because Wisdom can only be used to resist, whereas Charisma can actually be used to impose. Wisdom skills are mostly passive, they're for noticing things, not doing things as such, but Charisma skills specifically enable a character to get outcomes that they want.
The use of the word willpower in Giants of the Star Forge for example is clearly because they're treating the test like a save against being frightened (which is typically a Wisdom saving throw) because it's to avoid flinching/avoiding reacting instinctively. But you've yet to demonstrate how Wisdom is used to represent sheer force of will, i.e- imposing your will on others, which is what most people have argued is why Sorcerers ended up with Charisma as their spellcasting ability score.
So either both are different forms of willpower, or willpower was never the right word to use to begin with because Charisma might represent something similar but not exactly the same, either way this is all just a massive, pointless distraction because people are as entitled to believe Charisma is suitable for Sorcerers as they were to begin with.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.