So I think I'd give the Monk Weapon Mastery at level 5, with the caveat that it only applies to Simple Monk Weapons.
Why?
First, it allows WOTC to control the weapon pool - Simple Monk Weapons can only be melee weapons and none of them have the Heavy property. This restricts the spectrum of potential Monk Mastery options while allowing WOTC to carefully expand it in future releases. It also allows WOTC to add new Martial and Heavy weapons with Mastery options to other martial classes without worrying about how they interact with the Monk's scaling damage die and other features.
Second, the problem with the UA8 Monk in regards to Weapon Mastery is that it can easily get Weapon Mastery with either a dip into another martial class or a 4th level feat. The feat by the way is also likely going to jump Dex up to 18, so it's likely that you're still going to be looking at a pure Monk build with weapon mastery. This is just going to incentivize WOTC to address the elephant in the dojo, at the point where they will need to do so anyway.
Third, Weapon Mastery was designed to allow players to present better character expression in gameplay by letting them add effects in gameplay if they didn't already have features like Battle Master Maneuvers or Paladin Smites. But several Martial and Martial-adjacent classes do already have access to weapon mastery for at least some subclasses in addition to their other features. Right now, Monk has very little incentive to use weapons at all - nearly all of its UA8 class and subclass features work without a focus or weapon and suffer no loss in range or damage. So why did Monks learn all of these weapon types if they don't receive any benefit from them? The only good Monk weapons right now are Hand Crossbows (and lets be fair, that's probably going to be removed) and weapons with the Thrown property because they can be used to Stunning Strike at range. Rip off the handwraps and stop punishing Monks for taking weapons that they are proficient in. Yes, Nick may end up being a problem. But it's a problem that can be solved with thoughtful rule design in advance and adjusted via FAQs or errata. It also differentiates features like Open Hand's Topple and Addle FOBs from their weapon mastery equivalents, because Open Hand can use those features multiple times instead of only once per turn.
Finally, and I'm so happy to get to say this about Monk: It needs to come on at 5th Level because it would make Monks too strong at earlier levels. When's the last time we got to truthfully say that Monks had a serious problem with being too powerful without spamming the Stunning Strike condition?
While I can see a lot of monks grabbing WM at level 4, I think there are a lot of other good choices for them there too. Charger could be really good on an Open Hand Monk for instance, giving you 120ft move and letting you add up to +2d8 damage or +20 more feet of pushing by diving in and out of melee in a straight line, at high speed, that's more bonus damage than GWM. Grappler is self-explanatory and will allow your monk to drag an enemy all over the battlefield without sacrificing damage. Mage Slayer combos very well with their high number of attacks and ability to easily reach the enemy's backline. Sentinel is also self-explanatory. And of course, a humble ASI would let them start with a 16 Dex instead of 17 and put those points elsewhere, but still reach 24/26 at the captstone.
I honestly love the idea of monks dodging and BA punching at levels 1-4. That feels like such a monk way to "tank."
With Dodge is moving out of harms way XD
You are moving when you Dodge though. And even when you don't! Nobody is just standing stock still in their square like a department store mannequin during combat.
While I can see a lot of monks grabbing WM at level 4, I think there are a lot of other good choices for them there too. Charger could be really good on an Open Hand Monk for instance, giving you 120ft move and letting you add up to +2d8 damage or +20 more feet of pushing by diving in and out of melee in a straight line, at high speed, that's more bonus damage than GWM. Grappler is self-explanatory and will allow your monk to drag an enemy all over the battlefield without sacrificing damage. Mage Slayer combos very well with their high number of attacks and ability to easily reach the enemy's backline. Sentinel is also self-explanatory. And of course, a humble ASI would let them start with a 16 Dex instead of 17 and put those points elsewhere, but still reach 24/26 at the captstone.
so deflect attack shouldn't be thought of as hitpoints, you should think of it as negating an attack. or lower. per round. Point being extra reduction doesnt add to your hit points directly
also, its a battle to see whose HP reaches zero first, not who nets less hp loss per round.
Sorry but comparing a "worst case scenario" for a monk, vs "average round" for a fighter is not a fair comparison. Could you please write this out with both the monk and the fighter receiving identical attacks / AoEs as I'm having a really hard time trying to understand this.
it wasn't worse case for the monk, it was average case for my numbers.
and they were both receiving the average attacks, the numbers/methods are different because for the monk you have to do a more complex analysis, because its a not a simple 60% hit rate. they negate/reduce one attack. so you have to figure the odds of each case because each case leads to a different number.
lets see if I made an error.
there are 4 cases
nothing hits 1st and 2nd odds of this is .4*.4 (60% chance to hit with 17 AC versus 8 attack) =16% chance nothing hits
1 hits 1st, nothing hits 2nd. odds of this is .4*.6 =24% chance of this happening
0 hits 1st, 1 hits second. odds of this is .6*.4=24% chance of this happening
1 hit first, 1 hit 2nd. odds of this is .6*.6= 36% chance of this happening.
we can add case Two and three because they both are one hit, order doesnt matter. 48% chance of 1 attack hitting.
the hill giant its:
48% chance of one attack hitting, where they take 18 dmg -13.5(average deflect)= 4.5*.48% = 2.16
36% chance of two attacks, in this case they take 18 damage and 18-13.5 damage =22.5 or (18+4.5)*36%= 8.1 dmg
so adding up the damage over each % gives you the total 10.26 damage on average.
On top of the average, just pointing that on top of losing the average case, the monk is more likely to be unable to handle a bit of adversity.
12% of the time, the monk dies round two. (chance of 4 attacks hitting in two rounds)
the same occurrence is less likely for the fighter, only 9% chance.
the two fights were fights I had on my shadow monk (at level 4), that they survived, I'm saying the Astral monk with 16 dex was unlikely to survive those situations, and the fighter is likely to survive them.
there is probably a faster way to do this using combinations and factorials, but I always forget how that works.
What sacrifice? Did you read what I wrote? Addle means you can get in and out of melee without disengaging against most creatures, thus getting all your attacks. By the time you're regularly up against fast creatures or creatures with lots of reach, Fleet Step is online and you can easily keep out of range of those too with 100ft OA-free movement. Both of those are available long before 17.
but the topic was specifically a low AC astral monk who let's dex slide, And the fact their wisdom grapples don't work anymore, and their reflect energy is super niche now. (more than before). I don't think low AC is a great idea for them at this time, though its not unplayable.
No argument that astral needs a buff, but astral is also irrelevant until it gets reprinted one day. It can be weaker for the time being just like other legacy subclasses like Banneret and Scout and Tempest Barbarian etc.
its a sacrifice because the sub provides no method of increased damage, while the other options do.
shadow monk has permanent advantage.
elements can theoretically get more damage with AOEs, and flight allows dropping enemies via grabs, or pulls. (your carry weight is probably bad on monk)
the open hand monk does no extra damage until level 17.
and yes, I know some subs get less functionality for now, the point was in response to a post saying Astral was fine because they can focus wisdom, and can take more feats, and the 16 dex won't really matter because deflect attack solves your need for AC.
point being the low dex Astral guy is going to be noticeably more likely to die than the other monks, and more likely than a shieldless fighter. AKA I wouldn't recommend it
While I can see a lot of monks grabbing WM at level 4, I think there are a lot of other good choices for them there too. Charger could be really good on an Open Hand Monk for instance, giving you 120ft move and letting you add up to +2d8 damage or +20 more feet of pushing by diving in and out of melee in a straight line, at high speed, that's more bonus damage than GWM. Grappler is self-explanatory and will allow your monk to drag an enemy all over the battlefield without sacrificing damage. Mage Slayer combos very well with their high number of attacks and ability to easily reach the enemy's backline. Sentinel is also self-explanatory. And of course, a humble ASI would let them start with a 16 Dex instead of 17 and put those points elsewhere, but still reach 24/26 at the captstone.
charger is more damage until monk die becomes 8.And you can decide on hit, so its less effected by accuracy.
but its more fun than Nick.
Sentinel is less good because you only get one reaction, but you are encouraging them to hit you. its not horrible and can be a fun playstyle, but its not high synergy.
its a sacrifice because the sub provides no method of increased damage, while the other options do.
shadow monk has permanent advantage.
elements can theoretically get more damage with AOEs, and flight allows dropping enemies via grabs, or pulls. (your carry weight is probably bad on monk)
the open hand monk does no extra damage until level 17.
1) If you consider gaining advantage to be a damage increase then Open Hand does get that too, via Topple. Most enemies have weaker Dex saves than Str and Con as well, so their chances of failing early and falling prone so the Monk's remaining 2-4 attacks getting advantage is higher than most.
2) Even if they do fail to Topple, that's still not a "sacrifice" of damage. If you're an OH monk, you can't be anything else anyway, so it's a specious comparison.
its a sacrifice because the sub provides no method of increased damage, while the other options do.
shadow monk has permanent advantage.
elements can theoretically get more damage with AOEs, and flight allows dropping enemies via grabs, or pulls. (your carry weight is probably bad on monk)
the open hand monk does no extra damage until level 17.
1) If you consider gaining advantage to be a damage increase then Open Hand does get that too, via Topple. Most enemies have weaker Dex saves than Str and Con as well, so their chances of failing early and falling prone so the Monk's remaining 2-4 attacks getting advantage is higher than most.
2) Even if they do fail to Topple, that's still not a "sacrifice" of damage. If you're an OH monk, you can't be anything else anyway, so it's a specious comparison.
1)topple is % chance per hit, and is available to any other martial for free. if you spend 2 hits toppling, you didnt have advantage on two hits. If you failed to topple you get none. Topple requires a hit + save. lets say you have 65% chance to hit, and 60% chance to topple, its only 40% chance to have advantage on your second attack. meanwhile shadow just works.
2) the sacrifice is choosing to be an OH monk to begin with. You decided to sacrifice damage just picking that sub class.
thats not specious comparison, comparing subclasses in terms of offense defense etc is what people do when selecting sub classes. Players will often ask whats this subclass good at? For OH monk, the answer is, they won't gain offense compared to any other subclass, until 17. they'll gain a bit of control, recovery, and eventually speed.
Open hand design is still off imo. They need something more in order to compete. (with other subs and classes) they can't just be the topple dude in a world where every other martial has topple. They used to be the top melee control, who could manipulate enemies on hit, that is no longer the case. They are the below average or average control martial now, better than baseline monk, and rogue. They are all over the place now. No real theme or identity.
So I think I'd give the Monk Weapon Mastery at level 5, with the caveat that it only applies to Simple Monk Weapons.
Why?
First, it allows WOTC to control the weapon pool - Simple Monk Weapons can only be melee weapons and none of them have the Heavy property. This restricts the spectrum of potential Monk Mastery options while allowing WOTC to carefully expand it in future releases. It also allows WOTC to add new Martial and Heavy weapons with Mastery options to other martial classes without worrying about how they interact with the Monk's scaling damage die and other features.
Second, the problem with the UA8 Monk in regards to Weapon Mastery is that it can easily get Weapon Mastery with either a dip into another martial class or a 4th level feat. The feat by the way is also likely going to jump Dex up to 18, so it's likely that you're still going to be looking at a pure Monk build with weapon mastery. This is just going to incentivize WOTC to address the elephant in the dojo, at the point where they will need to do so anyway.
Third, Weapon Mastery was designed to allow players to present better character expression in gameplay by letting them add effects in gameplay if they didn't already have features like Battle Master Maneuvers or Paladin Smites. But several Martial and Martial-adjacent classes do already have access to weapon mastery for at least some subclasses in addition to their other features. Right now, Monk has very little incentive to use weapons at all - nearly all of its UA8 class and subclass features work without a focus or weapon and suffer no loss in range or damage. So why did Monks learn all of these weapon types if they don't receive any benefit from them? The only good Monk weapons right now are Hand Crossbows (and lets be fair, that's probably going to be removed) and weapons with the Thrown property because they can be used to Stunning Strike at range. Rip off the handwraps and stop punishing Monks for taking weapons that they are proficient in. Yes, Nick may end up being a problem. But it's a problem that can be solved with thoughtful rule design in advance and adjusted via FAQs or errata. It also differentiates features like Open Hand's Topple and Addle FOBs from their weapon mastery equivalents, because Open Hand can use those features multiple times instead of only once per turn.
Finally, and I'm so happy to get to say this about Monk: It needs to come on at 5th Level because it would make Monks too strong at earlier levels. When's the last time we got to truthfully say that Monks had a serious problem with being too powerful without spamming the Stunning Strike condition?
well monk weapons include martial weapons with light property and since Scimitar and Shortsword have Nick or Vex, which monks already have access to with simple weapons, I don’t see a reason to exclude them.
Edit: And monks can’t use Heavy weapons, unless they give Kensei access, even if they bring back Dedicated Weapon from Tasha’s, so that concern of controlling the weapon pool is not an issue in that regard.
Right now, Monk has very little incentive to use weapons at all - nearly all of its UA8 class and subclass features work without a focus or weapon and suffer no loss in range or damage. So why did Monks learn all of these weapon types if they don't receive any benefit from them?
Because many of the new feats had martial weapon proficiency as a prerequisite. Without that monks are denied access to many feats that make sense for them to have access to. Previously monks had access to shortsword but that was made a martial weapon for no good reason, so part of this is wotc fixing their own self created problems. Besides that i think the possibility of access to more magic weapons gives monks a good reason to use weapons. That is also a wotc created issue too because of the lack of magic items for unarmed combat.
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
Open hand design is still off imo. They need something more in order to compete. (with other subs and classes) they can't just be the topple dude in a world where every other martial has topple. They used to be the top melee control, who could manipulate enemies on hit, that is no longer the case. They are the below average or average control martial now, better than baseline monk, and rogue. They are all over the place now. No real theme or identity.
I agree that Open Hand needs work. I doubt the level 3 ability will get changed considering time constraints. Ditto for the level 17 Quivering Palm. The Level 11 Fleet Step will probably get high marks on the survey.
What about if the Level 6 Wholeness of Body changed to "You gain a second Reaction that can only be used for Deflect Attack." ? With appropriate legalese wording. An additional Deflect Attack is a similar survival increase to the current restoration of HP. An additional Reaction means 1 Reaction can be an Opportunity Attack and the other a Deflect Attack. Assuming Open Hand is in the Basic Rules, more Deflect Attacks would be appealing to newer players that are worried about survival.
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
Their proficiency list and Monk Weapons now include martial weapons with finesse. Guess what a whip is?
So I think I'd give the Monk Weapon Mastery at level 5, with the caveat that it only applies to Simple Monk Weapons.
Why?
First, it allows WOTC to control the weapon pool - Simple Monk Weapons can only be melee weapons and none of them have the Heavy property. This restricts the spectrum of potential Monk Mastery options while allowing WOTC to carefully expand it in future releases. It also allows WOTC to add new Martial and Heavy weapons with Mastery options to other martial classes without worrying about how they interact with the Monk's scaling damage die and other features.
Second, the problem with the UA8 Monk in regards to Weapon Mastery is that it can easily get Weapon Mastery with either a dip into another martial class or a 4th level feat. The feat by the way is also likely going to jump Dex up to 18, so it's likely that you're still going to be looking at a pure Monk build with weapon mastery. This is just going to incentivize WOTC to address the elephant in the dojo, at the point where they will need to do so anyway.
Third, Weapon Mastery was designed to allow players to present better character expression in gameplay by letting them add effects in gameplay if they didn't already have features like Battle Master Maneuvers or Paladin Smites. But several Martial and Martial-adjacent classes do already have access to weapon mastery for at least some subclasses in addition to their other features. Right now, Monk has very little incentive to use weapons at all - nearly all of its UA8 class and subclass features work without a focus or weapon and suffer no loss in range or damage. So why did Monks learn all of these weapon types if they don't receive any benefit from them? The only good Monk weapons right now are Hand Crossbows (and lets be fair, that's probably going to be removed) and weapons with the Thrown property because they can be used to Stunning Strike at range. Rip off the handwraps and stop punishing Monks for taking weapons that they are proficient in. Yes, Nick may end up being a problem. But it's a problem that can be solved with thoughtful rule design in advance and adjusted via FAQs or errata. It also differentiates features like Open Hand's Topple and Addle FOBs from their weapon mastery equivalents, because Open Hand can use those features multiple times instead of only once per turn.
Finally, and I'm so happy to get to say this about Monk: It needs to come on at 5th Level because it would make Monks too strong at earlier levels. When's the last time we got to truthfully say that Monks had a serious problem with being too powerful without spamming the Stunning Strike condition?
well monk weapons include martial weapons with light property and since Scimitar and Shortsword have Nick or Vex, which monks already have access to with simple weapons, I don’t see a reason to exclude them.
Edit: And monks can’t use Heavy weapons, unless they give Kensei access, even if they bring back Dedicated Weapon from Tasha’s, so that concern of controlling the weapon pool is not an issue in that regard.
So far as I can see, Monk Weapons no longer exclude heavy weapons and weapons with the Special property. They are just not part of the available weapon options presented so far.
... Monk Weapons, which are the following: • Simple Melee Weapons • Martial Weapons that have the Light property
That's the only definition of Monk Weapons provided.
If WOTC adds heavy simple weapons or a way to make heavy weapons gain the Light property, they'll work just fine with Monks. This is why the Dual Wielding feat is currently grabbing attention - you can potentially make a weapon that previously was unavailable to Monks a compatible weapon going forward. This also makes an easy way for DMs and WOTC to give their Monk players Magic Weapons: by adding the Light property to a Martial weapon which otherwise shouldn't qualify.
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
Their proficiency list and Monk Weapons now include martial weapons with finesse. Guess what a whip is?
Is there a change, or is this an alternative suggestion? Monks don't count Finesse, they count Martial weapons with Light. And yes I agree that whips should be a Monk weapon.
On a related note, I think that Monks should also have access to blowguns.
1)topple is % chance per hit, and is available to any other martial for free. if you spend 2 hits toppling, you didnt have advantage on two hits. If you failed to topple you get none. Topple requires a hit + save. lets say you have 65% chance to hit, and 60% chance to topple, its only 40% chance to have advantage on your second attack. meanwhile shadow just works.
2) the sacrifice is choosing to be an OH monk to begin with. You decided to sacrifice damage just picking that sub class.
thats not specious comparison, comparing subclasses in terms of offense defense etc is what people do when selecting sub classes. Players will often ask whats this subclass good at? For OH monk, the answer is, they won't gain offense compared to any other subclass, until 17. they'll gain a bit of control, recovery, and eventually speed.
Open hand design is still off imo. They need something more in order to compete. (with other subs and classes) they can't just be the topple dude in a world where every other martial has topple. They used to be the top melee control, who could manipulate enemies on hit, that is no longer the case. They are the below average or average control martial now, better than baseline monk, and rogue. They are all over the place now. No real theme or identity.
1) Topple isn't "free" for every other martial. For them it's a CON save, which is far more likely to pass for most enemies than the OH's Dex save (and if you're up against something with a weak Con save, you should be Stunning instead, which is a far worse debuff than knocking prone anyway.) Second, it restricts the martial's weapon choice (e.g. no polearms have it, so no BA attack either unless they have a feature like Battering Roots or Master of Armaments to add it to one). Even if they succeed, if they're using that, they can't also use Graze or Cleave or Sap etc. So my point stands - if you count knocking prone as a DPR increase, OH monk gets that, because they have a more reliable version than everyone else.
And yes, there's a % chance it fails on each punch - but you can build that chance into a DPR calculation, it's not hard. That's still an increase overall from the subclass right off the bat, long before 17th level. It's not unchanged and it's certainly not a loss or sacrifice.
2) Shadow might "just work" (assuming no enemies with blindsight, truesight, devils' sight etc) but requires an Action to set up, and twice as much DP to flurry with on that first round. In addition, a 15ft cloud of darkness that only you can see through has a pretty good chance of impeding your party depending on the battlefield you're on, especially if the enemy moves out of it. EVERY subclass has tradeoffs, and you need to evaluate the whole package, not cherry-pick benefits without considering their drawbacks to try and make a point.
3) They are more than "the topple dude." That's the subclass' primary damage boost early on, but their primary role is control, via pushing enemies around the battlefield shutting off their opportunity attacks. I do think Wholeness of Body needs a buff (e.g. it should trigger automatically if you get dropped to zero or something) but Open Hand Technique and Fleet Step are fine and give plenty of reason to pick the subclass as-is, especially as being the most straightforward/quintessential monk of the four.
1)topple is % chance per hit, and is available to any other martial for free. if you spend 2 hits toppling, you didnt have advantage on two hits. If you failed to topple you get none. Topple requires a hit + save. lets say you have 65% chance to hit, and 60% chance to topple, its only 40% chance to have advantage on your second attack. meanwhile shadow just works.
2) the sacrifice is choosing to be an OH monk to begin with. You decided to sacrifice damage just picking that sub class.
thats not specious comparison, comparing subclasses in terms of offense defense etc is what people do when selecting sub classes. Players will often ask whats this subclass good at? For OH monk, the answer is, they won't gain offense compared to any other subclass, until 17. they'll gain a bit of control, recovery, and eventually speed.
Open hand design is still off imo. They need something more in order to compete. (with other subs and classes) they can't just be the topple dude in a world where every other martial has topple. They used to be the top melee control, who could manipulate enemies on hit, that is no longer the case. They are the below average or average control martial now, better than baseline monk, and rogue. They are all over the place now. No real theme or identity.
1) Topple isn't "free" for every other martial. For them it's a CON save, which is far more likely to pass for most enemies than the OH's Dex save (and if you're up against something with a weak Con save, you should be Stunning instead, which is a far worse debuff than knocking prone anyway.) Second, it restricts the martial's weapon choice (e.g. no polearms have it, so no BA attack either unless they have a feature like Battering Roots or Master of Armaments to add it to one). Even if they succeed, if they're using that, they can't also use Graze or Cleave or Sap etc. So my point stands - if you count knocking prone as a DPR increase, OH monk gets that, because they have a more reliable version than everyone else.
And yes, there's a % chance it fails on each punch - but you can build that chance into a DPR calculation, it's not hard. That's still an increase overall from the subclass right off the bat, long before 17th level. It's not unchanged and it's certainly not a loss or sacrifice.
2) Shadow might "just work" (assuming no enemies with blindsight, truesight, devils' sight etc) but requires an Action to set up, and twice as much DP to flurry with on that first round. In addition, a 15ft cloud of darkness that only you can see through has a pretty good chance of impeding your party depending on the battlefield you're on, especially if the enemy moves out of it. EVERY subclass has tradeoffs, and you need to evaluate the whole package, not cherry-pick benefits without considering their drawbacks to try and make a point.
3) They are more than "the topple dude." That's the subclass' primary damage boost early on, but their primary role is control, via pushing enemies around the battlefield shutting off their opportunity attacks. I do think Wholeness of Body needs a buff (e.g. it should trigger automatically if you get dropped to zero or something) but Open Hand Technique and Fleet Step are fine and give plenty of reason to pick the subclass as-is, especially as being the most straightforward/quintessential monk of the four.
1)its free, because its built into their class, not requiring a sub, works on BA or Actions and uses no resource. they do have a polearm with topple, its Lance. and even if they didn't you can swap weapons at will.
you think a 5-15% better chance to topple from lvl 3 to 16 tied to BA and KI use is a good identity and prime feature for a sub class?
and yes its a loss compared to picking another sub class. if every other subclass gives you plus 4-10 DPR and one gives you 1 dpr, that subclass represents a loss in DPS. Why are you comparing it to no subclass? its not possible to have no subclass. If you aren't OH monk, you do more damage.
2) Shadows benefits are decided by how well you use it, its not random, you can move it every round. If you pick shadow, strategic use of darkness is basically the whole point. This isnt cherry picking, this is the point if the subclass.
3) they are topple dude, not control guy. their push has a save, every other martial can reliably push on any hit.(no save) You know what also disables OP attacks? pushing a monster away guaranteed per hit. Addle is a joke. both addle and push (for OH) are hyper niche. You know what every other person with access to martial weapons can do? push on reaction. sentinel+ push? awesome, PAM plus push? awesome. Monk? can only use this on FOB, and only if you fail the save. The big use case is enemies of huge size+ You can't build a level 3 subclass feature on being less useful on everyone but huge+ enemies. It needs to be baseline useful/defining. This feature struggles to beat weapon master.
they are only actually good at topple, and only slightly better. push and addle are too niche to be seriously considered. Do you think I'm getting paid to hate on OH? I'm hating on it because its not actually good enough. It is now one of those features that does the same things other classes get for free.
Its not the most quintessinial monk any more. because that perception was mostly based around the level 3 feature, which is now something every martial does just as well. (better push, worse topple, addle is irrelevant)
When everyone in MMA masters jujitsu, you better be a lot better than them at it to make people think, thats the jujitsu master. The level 3 feature needs to be improved, or the level 6 needs to be improved. you can't have a subclass depending on the level 11 and 17 feature. And I'm not in love with the level 11 feature for the barehand most pure monk sub, but its not bad/subpar.
id make
push be; gain 5ft movement can step into enemies space moving any direction 5ft doing d4 dmg +10ft more on failed save
or add wall damage to push effects
addle no op attack; disadvantage to next save on failed save
topple, gain pb damage to prone enemies, or crit on 18+ versus prone
whatever they do, it needs to stand out more from mastery.
wholeness, should add ki. probably 2ki to be worthwhile in combat. at least 1 ki.
Yes, easier prone (and push, and free disengage AND dash) built in to the attack you'll almost always be making anyway, all for 1 DP, is worth a subclass. You don't have to agree.
Regarding Shadow, you move it at the start of your turn. It has the potential to be very useful for you, but it also has the potential to get in your party's way, especially if the enemy gets to move after you and before they do.
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So I think I'd give the Monk Weapon Mastery at level 5, with the caveat that it only applies to Simple Monk Weapons.
Why?
First, it allows WOTC to control the weapon pool - Simple Monk Weapons can only be melee weapons and none of them have the Heavy property. This restricts the spectrum of potential Monk Mastery options while allowing WOTC to carefully expand it in future releases. It also allows WOTC to add new Martial and Heavy weapons with Mastery options to other martial classes without worrying about how they interact with the Monk's scaling damage die and other features.
Second, the problem with the UA8 Monk in regards to Weapon Mastery is that it can easily get Weapon Mastery with either a dip into another martial class or a 4th level feat. The feat by the way is also likely going to jump Dex up to 18, so it's likely that you're still going to be looking at a pure Monk build with weapon mastery. This is just going to incentivize WOTC to address the elephant in the dojo, at the point where they will need to do so anyway.
Third, Weapon Mastery was designed to allow players to present better character expression in gameplay by letting them add effects in gameplay if they didn't already have features like Battle Master Maneuvers or Paladin Smites. But several Martial and Martial-adjacent classes do already have access to weapon mastery for at least some subclasses in addition to their other features. Right now, Monk has very little incentive to use weapons at all - nearly all of its UA8 class and subclass features work without a focus or weapon and suffer no loss in range or damage. So why did Monks learn all of these weapon types if they don't receive any benefit from them? The only good Monk weapons right now are Hand Crossbows (and lets be fair, that's probably going to be removed) and weapons with the Thrown property because they can be used to Stunning Strike at range. Rip off the handwraps and stop punishing Monks for taking weapons that they are proficient in. Yes, Nick may end up being a problem. But it's a problem that can be solved with thoughtful rule design in advance and adjusted via FAQs or errata. It also differentiates features like Open Hand's Topple and Addle FOBs from their weapon mastery equivalents, because Open Hand can use those features multiple times instead of only once per turn.
Finally, and I'm so happy to get to say this about Monk: It needs to come on at 5th Level because it would make Monks too strong at earlier levels. When's the last time we got to truthfully say that Monks had a serious problem with being too powerful without spamming the Stunning Strike condition?
With Dodge is moving out of harms way XD
While I can see a lot of monks grabbing WM at level 4, I think there are a lot of other good choices for them there too. Charger could be really good on an Open Hand Monk for instance, giving you 120ft move and letting you add up to +2d8 damage or +20 more feet of pushing by diving in and out of melee in a straight line, at high speed, that's more bonus damage than GWM. Grappler is self-explanatory and will allow your monk to drag an enemy all over the battlefield without sacrificing damage. Mage Slayer combos very well with their high number of attacks and ability to easily reach the enemy's backline. Sentinel is also self-explanatory. And of course, a humble ASI would let them start with a 16 Dex instead of 17 and put those points elsewhere, but still reach 24/26 at the captstone.
You are moving when you Dodge though. And even when you don't! Nobody is just standing stock still in their square like a department store mannequin during combat.
Charger has a once per turn trigger.
it wasn't worse case for the monk, it was average case for my numbers.
and they were both receiving the average attacks, the numbers/methods are different because for the monk you have to do a more complex analysis, because its a not a simple 60% hit rate. they negate/reduce one attack. so you have to figure the odds of each case because each case leads to a different number.
lets see if I made an error.
there are 4 cases
nothing hits 1st and 2nd odds of this is .4*.4 (60% chance to hit with 17 AC versus 8 attack) =16% chance nothing hits
1 hits 1st, nothing hits 2nd. odds of this is .4*.6 =24% chance of this happening
0 hits 1st, 1 hits second. odds of this is .6*.4=24% chance of this happening
1 hit first, 1 hit 2nd. odds of this is .6*.6= 36% chance of this happening.
we can add case Two and three because they both are one hit, order doesnt matter. 48% chance of 1 attack hitting.
the hill giant its:
48% chance of one attack hitting, where they take 18 dmg -13.5(average deflect)= 4.5*.48% = 2.16
36% chance of two attacks, in this case they take 18 damage and 18-13.5 damage =22.5 or (18+4.5)*36%= 8.1 dmg
so adding up the damage over each % gives you the total 10.26 damage on average.
On top of the average, just pointing that on top of losing the average case, the monk is more likely to be unable to handle a bit of adversity.
12% of the time, the monk dies round two. (chance of 4 attacks hitting in two rounds)
the same occurrence is less likely for the fighter, only 9% chance.
the two fights were fights I had on my shadow monk (at level 4), that they survived, I'm saying the Astral monk with 16 dex was unlikely to survive those situations, and the fighter is likely to survive them.
there is probably a faster way to do this using combinations and factorials, but I always forget how that works.
its a sacrifice because the sub provides no method of increased damage, while the other options do.
shadow monk has permanent advantage.
elements can theoretically get more damage with AOEs, and flight allows dropping enemies via grabs, or pulls. (your carry weight is probably bad on monk)
the open hand monk does no extra damage until level 17.
and yes, I know some subs get less functionality for now, the point was in response to a post saying Astral was fine because they can focus wisdom, and can take more feats, and the 16 dex won't really matter because deflect attack solves your need for AC.
point being the low dex Astral guy is going to be noticeably more likely to die than the other monks, and more likely than a shieldless fighter. AKA I wouldn't recommend it
charger is more damage until monk die becomes 8.And you can decide on hit, so its less effected by accuracy.
but its more fun than Nick.
Sentinel is less good because you only get one reaction, but you are encouraging them to hit you. its not horrible and can be a fun playstyle, but its not high synergy.
1) If you consider gaining advantage to be a damage increase then Open Hand does get that too, via Topple. Most enemies have weaker Dex saves than Str and Con as well, so their chances of failing early and falling prone so the Monk's remaining 2-4 attacks getting advantage is higher than most.
2) Even if they do fail to Topple, that's still not a "sacrifice" of damage. If you're an OH monk, you can't be anything else anyway, so it's a specious comparison.
1)topple is % chance per hit, and is available to any other martial for free. if you spend 2 hits toppling, you didnt have advantage on two hits. If you failed to topple you get none. Topple requires a hit + save. lets say you have 65% chance to hit, and 60% chance to topple, its only 40% chance to have advantage on your second attack. meanwhile shadow just works.
2) the sacrifice is choosing to be an OH monk to begin with. You decided to sacrifice damage just picking that sub class.
thats not specious comparison, comparing subclasses in terms of offense defense etc is what people do when selecting sub classes. Players will often ask whats this subclass good at? For OH monk, the answer is, they won't gain offense compared to any other subclass, until 17. they'll gain a bit of control, recovery, and eventually speed.
Open hand design is still off imo. They need something more in order to compete. (with other subs and classes) they can't just be the topple dude in a world where every other martial has topple. They used to be the top melee control, who could manipulate enemies on hit, that is no longer the case. They are the below average or average control martial now, better than baseline monk, and rogue. They are all over the place now. No real theme or identity.
well monk weapons include martial weapons with light property and since Scimitar and Shortsword have Nick or Vex, which monks already have access to with simple weapons, I don’t see a reason to exclude them.
Edit: And monks can’t use Heavy weapons, unless they give Kensei access, even if they bring back Dedicated Weapon from Tasha’s, so that concern of controlling the weapon pool is not an issue in that regard.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Because many of the new feats had martial weapon proficiency as a prerequisite. Without that monks are denied access to many feats that make sense for them to have access to. Previously monks had access to shortsword but that was made a martial weapon for no good reason, so part of this is wotc fixing their own self created problems. Besides that i think the possibility of access to more magic weapons gives monks a good reason to use weapons. That is also a wotc created issue too because of the lack of magic items for unarmed combat.
I'm slightly annoyed that whip is still not on the standard monk weapon list. Rope darts and the like are such a weird, yet iconic weapon for martial arts, and reflavouring 'whip' seems to be the best fit for it.
I agree that Open Hand needs work. I doubt the level 3 ability will get changed considering time constraints. Ditto for the level 17 Quivering Palm. The Level 11 Fleet Step will probably get high marks on the survey.
What about if the Level 6 Wholeness of Body changed to "You gain a second Reaction that can only be used for Deflect Attack." ? With appropriate legalese wording. An additional Deflect Attack is a similar survival increase to the current restoration of HP. An additional Reaction means 1 Reaction can be an Opportunity Attack and the other a Deflect Attack. Assuming Open Hand is in the Basic Rules, more Deflect Attacks would be appealing to newer players that are worried about survival.
Their proficiency list and Monk Weapons now include martial weapons with finesse. Guess what a whip is?
So far as I can see, Monk Weapons no longer exclude heavy weapons and weapons with the Special property. They are just not part of the available weapon options presented so far.
That's the only definition of Monk Weapons provided.
If WOTC adds heavy simple weapons or a way to make heavy weapons gain the Light property, they'll work just fine with Monks. This is why the Dual Wielding feat is currently grabbing attention - you can potentially make a weapon that previously was unavailable to Monks a compatible weapon going forward. This also makes an easy way for DMs and WOTC to give their Monk players Magic Weapons: by adding the Light property to a Martial weapon which otherwise shouldn't qualify.
Is there a change, or is this an alternative suggestion? Monks don't count Finesse, they count Martial weapons with Light. And yes I agree that whips should be a Monk weapon.
On a related note, I think that Monks should also have access to blowguns.
1) Topple isn't "free" for every other martial. For them it's a CON save, which is far more likely to pass for most enemies than the OH's Dex save (and if you're up against something with a weak Con save, you should be Stunning instead, which is a far worse debuff than knocking prone anyway.) Second, it restricts the martial's weapon choice (e.g. no polearms have it, so no BA attack either unless they have a feature like Battering Roots or Master of Armaments to add it to one). Even if they succeed, if they're using that, they can't also use Graze or Cleave or Sap etc. So my point stands - if you count knocking prone as a DPR increase, OH monk gets that, because they have a more reliable version than everyone else.
And yes, there's a % chance it fails on each punch - but you can build that chance into a DPR calculation, it's not hard. That's still an increase overall from the subclass right off the bat, long before 17th level. It's not unchanged and it's certainly not a loss or sacrifice.
2) Shadow might "just work" (assuming no enemies with blindsight, truesight, devils' sight etc) but requires an Action to set up, and twice as much DP to flurry with on that first round. In addition, a 15ft cloud of darkness that only you can see through has a pretty good chance of impeding your party depending on the battlefield you're on, especially if the enemy moves out of it. EVERY subclass has tradeoffs, and you need to evaluate the whole package, not cherry-pick benefits without considering their drawbacks to try and make a point.
3) They are more than "the topple dude." That's the subclass' primary damage boost early on, but their primary role is control, via pushing enemies around the battlefield shutting off their opportunity attacks. I do think Wholeness of Body needs a buff (e.g. it should trigger automatically if you get dropped to zero or something) but Open Hand Technique and Fleet Step are fine and give plenty of reason to pick the subclass as-is, especially as being the most straightforward/quintessential monk of the four.
1)its free, because its built into their class, not requiring a sub, works on BA or Actions and uses no resource. they do have a polearm with topple, its Lance. and even if they didn't you can swap weapons at will.
you think a 5-15% better chance to topple from lvl 3 to 16 tied to BA and KI use is a good identity and prime feature for a sub class?
and yes its a loss compared to picking another sub class. if every other subclass gives you plus 4-10 DPR and one gives you 1 dpr, that subclass represents a loss in DPS. Why are you comparing it to no subclass? its not possible to have no subclass. If you aren't OH monk, you do more damage.
2) Shadows benefits are decided by how well you use it, its not random, you can move it every round. If you pick shadow, strategic use of darkness is basically the whole point. This isnt cherry picking, this is the point if the subclass.
3) they are topple dude, not control guy. their push has a save, every other martial can reliably push on any hit.(no save) You know what also disables OP attacks? pushing a monster away guaranteed per hit. Addle is a joke. both addle and push (for OH) are hyper niche. You know what every other person with access to martial weapons can do? push on reaction. sentinel+ push? awesome, PAM plus push? awesome. Monk? can only use this on FOB, and only if you fail the save. The big use case is enemies of huge size+ You can't build a level 3 subclass feature on being less useful on everyone but huge+ enemies. It needs to be baseline useful/defining. This feature struggles to beat weapon master.
they are only actually good at topple, and only slightly better. push and addle are too niche to be seriously considered. Do you think I'm getting paid to hate on OH? I'm hating on it because its not actually good enough. It is now one of those features that does the same things other classes get for free.
Its not the most quintessinial monk any more. because that perception was mostly based around the level 3 feature, which is now something every martial does just as well. (better push, worse topple, addle is irrelevant)
When everyone in MMA masters jujitsu, you better be a lot better than them at it to make people think, thats the jujitsu master. The level 3 feature needs to be improved, or the level 6 needs to be improved. you can't have a subclass depending on the level 11 and 17 feature. And I'm not in love with the level 11 feature for the barehand most pure monk sub, but its not bad/subpar.
id make
push be; gain 5ft movement can step into enemies space moving any direction 5ft doing d4 dmg +10ft more on failed save
or add wall damage to push effects
addle no op attack; disadvantage to next save on failed save
topple, gain pb damage to prone enemies, or crit on 18+ versus prone
whatever they do, it needs to stand out more from mastery.
wholeness, should add ki. probably 2ki to be worthwhile in combat. at least 1 ki.
Yes, easier prone (and push, and free disengage AND dash) built in to the attack you'll almost always be making anyway, all for 1 DP, is worth a subclass. You don't have to agree.
Regarding Shadow, you move it at the start of your turn. It has the potential to be very useful for you, but it also has the potential to get in your party's way, especially if the enemy gets to move after you and before they do.