level 6 rogue, dpr including accuracy=18.8. maybe 23 if you take charger. +6 to its (4)expert skills Damage focused sub adds +5 per encounter, assuming 4 rounds, thats +1.2=24.2
level 6 barb dpr including accuracy =31.6 with Pam +throwing. +6.5 to its (4-5)proficient primal skills while rage. Damage focused sub gives +2d6 per round thats 38.6
Find Familiar gives you advantage in 5e with help action, less clear in oneD&D. Still good for scouting and utility with Owl or Tressym.
Silvery Barbs is just broken for rogue, you can force a creature to reroll a successful attack roll or saving throw and then give yourself advantage from it.... that definitely ain't broken... P.S. works on critical hits against your friendly neighbourhood tank....
Silent Image, mostly for stealth and deception but there is some battlefield utility for this, since you can use your own image to give yourself total cover, which is... really good. The target creature has to spend an action to discern that the image is an illusion too, so can waste a target's action.
2nd level: Shadow Blade and another spell of choice
Shadow Blade: 2d8+Dex psychic damage on a thrown weapon which has advantage if the target is in dim light or darkness (their perception does not prevent anything), you have proficiency and has the light property, even if this lacks a weapon mastery, it's better than a +1/+2 rapier in most situations.
At level 7, this Arcane Trickster can potentially be putting out
Normal hit ( 2d8 + 1d8 + 4d6 ) * 0.65 + DEXmod * 0.6 = 20.275
if target moves, 2d8*0.6, 25.675, and with charger, 28.6
if target moves, 36.70125, and then with charger 40.92
This build makes Eldritch Adapt, to pick up devil's sight, very tempting. It's partially situational, but any time you're in dim light or darkness it's beating the barbarian. If you're not, then you're gunna switch back to a rapier and use silvery barbs to keep DPS up. If you use charger for damage or push is another question, Barbarian is generally not going to use reckless attack every turn in actual game play, taking on that amount of disadvantage is usually not a good idea.
not going to go over your Barbarian numbers, I think you've slightly low-balled them too to be honest but the damage between Rogue and Barbarian here is far far closer than you're thinking. Theoretically Barbarian does more but in actual play, the Rogue is going to do more, most of the time since they aren't taking on disadvantage to get advantage.
Of course a lot of this stuff does require going outside of the PHB, but this is stuff a lot of groups will play with since it's a PHB replacement and not a full new edition.
arcane trickster might be OK. but nothing else is. So either the other subclasses need something or the main class needs something.
I think a point I made earlier, is without off turn tricks, the class is lacking, and in its current form most players will not get access to off turn hijinks.
A solution might be a feat or feature that makes off turn attacks more mainstream for the class.
but also I would have to add off turn possibilities to every class analysis.
You can get booming blade in multiple different ways, arcane trickster is one, magic initiate is another and multiclass is another, most of shadowblade is only adding an additional 1d8 over rapier and another method to get advantage, if you're a swashbuckler you have an alternative method to sneak attack, but then you get a higher initiative and will get better cunning strike options.
Moving away from magic, going for the dual hand crossbows, pick up Weapons Training and Crossbow Expert, now making two ranged attacks a round with A LOT of advantage FROM hand crossbows. At level 10, take charger to finish the +5 dex mod. As an assassin, you're getting your bonus 7/8 damage on the first round, unless you're surprised, you basically get to start with advantage in most combats and using hand crossbows... chances of missing two attacks with advantage are pretty slim. As a thief, once you hit level 9, you're basically perm invisible from a single hide by spamming stealth attack, sure not level 7 or 8 but that isn't the biggest issue.
Either way, you're basically going to keep up a lot of advantage as most rogue builds, where Barbarian has a huge cost to getting their advantage, they give advantage to all attacking rolls against themselves, so while theoretically Barbarian could out put a tonnage of damage, in practice, they ain't going to get as much because they have this other roll in combat while the rogue's other roll is out of combat but still vital to dungeon exploration. Which is why Barbarian defensive subclasses do quiet a bit less damage.
Is this one of those "my class needs advantage to work so I'll calculate everything with advantage permanently bolted in, but this other class doesn't so it never ever gets advantage" that I so often see in this here thread?
I don't know where everyone thinks omnipresent advantage comes from. IME ranged attacks almost never have advantage, and melee attacks mainly get advantage through flanking which is super dependent on party composition, positioning, and initiative order. Except for Barbarians (Reckless) and Rogues (BA Hide / Steady Aim).
Beserker Barbarian is a clear outlier in terms of DPR in the UA, handily 50% ahead of other martials, but all the rest are pretty tightly packed for average dpr. Strategy can shift this a little - e.g. only using a Cleave weapon when you can get the secondary attack, or using a Topple weapon when you have Adv on your first attack (e.g. from Guiding Bolt) - but again that's hard to account for as it completely depends on what magic items you have and your party composition and the type of combats you go up against.
I don't know where everyone thinks omnipresent advantage comes from...
i'm guilty of occasionally misremembering sneak attack's "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it" as conferring advantage. maybe that's a common thing that happens to lots of people? an easy mistake to make? definitely not early-onset dementia??
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
I don't know where everyone thinks omnipresent advantage comes from. IME ranged attacks almost never have advantage, and melee attacks mainly get advantage through flanking which is super dependent on party composition, positioning, and initiative order. Except for Barbarians (Reckless) and Rogues (BA Hide / Steady Aim).
Beserker Barbarian is a clear outlier in terms of DPR in the UA, handily 50% ahead of other martials, but all the rest are pretty tightly packed for average dpr. Strategy can shift this a little - e.g. only using a Cleave weapon when you can get the secondary attack, or using a Topple weapon when you have Adv on your first attack (e.g. from Guiding Bolt) - but again that's hard to account for as it completely depends on what magic items you have and your party composition and the type of combats you go up against.
Yeah I don't get it. Rogues and barbarians can just turn advantage on so in my games they almost always have it, everyone else almost never does. Vex may change things in play but I kind of doubt it. They have not been the weapons players have gravitated to at my play test table.
Vex will increase it for sure, but only for a small number of builds, though TBH the above numbers surprised me with how well two-weapon fighting is holding up now if you use Vex weapons so maybe eventually people will realize that heavy weapons aren't the only viable build anymore.
I don't know where everyone thinks omnipresent advantage comes from. IME ranged attacks almost never have advantage, and melee attacks mainly get advantage through flanking which is super dependent on party composition, positioning, and initiative order. Except for Barbarians (Reckless) and Rogues (BA Hide / Steady Aim).
(As you probably know) for Rogues, it's fairly easy, especially for ranged: just hide, or use Steady Aim.
And I've never seen a campaign use Flanking rules.
Vex will increase it for sure, but only for a small number of builds, though TBH the above numbers surprised me with how well two-weapon fighting is holding up now if you use Vex weapons so maybe eventually people will realize that heavy weapons aren't the only viable build anymore.
Yeah its damage is now fine, so id say something good is coming out of one in that build diversity in weapons has opened up a lot. I've generally seen in my players though that the people who want two light weapons frequently end up being the rogue players anyways. But for the fighters who want to do it, its now a mechanically roughly equal option.
Fighter: two weapon fighting (Charger+Sentinel+MageSlayer) - 0.65*(3.5+5) + 0.8*(3.5+5)*2.25 +0.96*4.5 = 25.1 -> 29.3 with +1 weapon Greatsword(GWM+Sentinel+Charger) = 0.65*(7+5)*2.25+0.35*5*2+0.88*4 = 24.6 -> 27.3 with +1 weapon Halberd(PAM+GWM+Sentinel) = 0.65*(5.5+5)*2.5+0.25*0.65*(5.5)+0.65*(2.5+5)+4 = 26.8 -> 31 with +1 weapon HandXbow(XbowXpert+Charger+Sharpshooter) = 0.91*(3.5+5)*3+4.5 = 27.7-> 31.6 with +1 weapon
Ranger adds Hunter's Mark to Greatsword ( +5.1 damage)
Level 12
Rogue: (XbowXpert+Charger) 0.8*(3.5+5)*2+0.8*4.5+0.96*(3.5*6) = 37.2 -> 39.1 with +1 weapon
Fighter: two weapon fighting (Charger+Sentinel+MageSlayer) - 0.65*(3.5+5) + 0.8*(3.5+5)*3.25 +0.96*4.5 = 32 -> 34 with +1 weapon Greatsword(GWM+Sentinel+Charger) = 0.65*(7+5)*3.25+0.35*5*2+5 = 33.9 -> 37.6 with +1 weapon Halberd(PAM+GWM+Sentinel) = 0.65*(5.5+5)*3.5+0.25*0.65*(5.5)+0.65*(2.5+5)+4 = 33.7 -> 39.3 with +1 weapon HandXbow(XbowXpert+Charger+Sharpshooter) = 0.91*(3.5+5)*4+4.5 = 35.44-> 41 with +1 weapon
Sorry, not seeing where Rogue is falling behind in DPR between levels 3-12...
your calcs are off.
at level 5, rogue cant use hand crossbows
Simple Weapons, Martial Weapons that have the Finesse Property
in order to use hand crossbows and xbow expert they need a feat to add martial ranged weapons and the xbow expert feat, this means they wont have your projected power levels at 9, and they cant try xbow mastery at 5.
you compare to fighter, though fighter is known to be subpar damage wise in its base class before it gets its 6th level feat, which is probably why it has stronger earlier subclass power. But really everyone is surpassing rogue, not just barbarian.
your fighter isnt using any weapons swaps, for no logical reason. Why attack twice with a Halberd when you can attack once with a greatsword and once with a halbeard, you also ignore mastery on fighter for some reason. Also why not use graze glaive? Why does your two hand weapon fighter have no GWF fighting style? This is a tactical class who can use and benefit from multiple masteries, you assume they wont use tactics? or weapon swap?
your calc goes from 5-9, but the fighter is going to spend most of the time from 5-9 with two feats, 5 is an outlier for fighter, and that says more about different charachters getting different powers at different levels, than actual % of gameplay with that power level. Its a hassle, but if you really want to analyze power per playtime, and the value of various levels.
with current encounter recommendation math:
2700 exp from 3-4. suggested adventure day exp per day is 1200. = 2.25 days at level 3
6500 exp from 4-5 suggested adventure day exp per day is 1700= 3.82 days at level 4
14000 exp from 5-6 suggested adventure day exp per day is 3500= 4 days at level 5
23000 exp from 6-7 ' ''' 4000= 5.75 days at level 6
34000 ' ' from 7-8 6000= 5.67 days at level 7
48000 ' ' from 8-9 7500 =6.4 days at level 8
64000 ' ' from 9-10 9000=7.1 days at level 9
milestone in modules usually spends less or similar ratios of times at low levels. Milestone exp in tables cant really be measured.Its totally up to the DM
so overall, a level 3 calculation is of very low value, players will spend 2.25/34.99 adventuring days at this level. or 6% of their adventure time at this power level. Its only of any real interest as a starting point, how the game feels early.
the power bumps for fighter are, 3 4 5 6 8 11
if you want to choose the most important levels, they will spend 75% of thier playtime from 6-9 and 54% of their playtime from 7-9
fighter will only spend 20% of their time from 5-8 at level 5 power level, so its a very bad point to choose to represent thier power level in that level range
So comparing a fighters power during playtime of an average campaign, 6 is better point of selection
level 6 fighter PAM+charger will use greatsword first attack, and polearm 2nd and 3rd. graze if they think they wont have advantage
(7+1.33(gWF) + 5.5+.8(gwf) +2.5+(.5) gwf) x.65 + 4x3(mod always lands with graze)+ (4.5+.75(gwf)*.96) =28.49 dpr at 6-7 without action surge. With action surge, 1/8 rounds +2.34 per round from GS 2 attacks. with no sub, they are doing 30+ damage while the rogue is doing 23. Assassin has a damage bonus of 6 per encounter or 1.5 per round, thief has no bonus, swashbuckler has no bonus, inquisitive, mastermind, soulknife, scout, vast majority of thief subclasses are underpowered in exchange for OoC powers that arent really relatively strong.
your fighter numbers are off because you ignore gwf, ignore graze, even though you claim they will never have advantage, you never swap weapons, even when its useless to continue, like cleave all the time though its only good for 1 attack. And you use cleave even if you dont have any enemy to use it on.You arent actually playing the class as designed. Its a weapon master with 3-6 masteries, who can change the masteries around and swap weapons. And consideration of surge or subclasses. Im not asking you to do the math on everything, but reality is we know fighter will have a subclass adding
you pick sentinel, and then calculate an unknown use benefit. you only get 1 reaction, and if you use PAM you dont benefit from sentinel, and PAM is actually easier to trigger, because melee enemies have little choice but to enter your range, and its controllable by the party, or the player. Whereas for sentinel, all they have to do is attack you to prevent it, which is partially the goal, to become a high value target.
And on top of that, the rogue isnt actually better at skills anymore than any of these guys besides monk, until 7th level. At which point, they are almost always like 25-45% damage away from other classes.
Rogues get 2x Expertise at 1st level, and twice as many skills as monks get - if you can't make them better at skills with all that then that's on you.
Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger can all get significant DPR benefits from their subclasses but these vary greatly depending on subclass, from +2d8 damage per turn from BB with Arcane Trickster, to +1d8 damage per round from Hunter, to 4d8/SR for Battlemaster, or 0 benefits to damage for other options.
I am using Weapon Masteries on Fighter (Greatsword build uses Graze, Halberd build uses Cleave, Rogue and Ranger use Vex). I'm not using swapping weapons because I doubt many players will do so routinely because the benefits to doing so are marginal at best when you start considering accuracy, Fighting Styles, Magic Items, and Feats:
E.g. 5th level: GWM + GWF + 2x Greatsword Attacks = 0.65*(7+4+.8)*2 + 0.88*3 (GWM) + 0.35*4*3 (Graze) = 22.2 GWM + GWF + 1x Greatsword + 2x Shortswords - if either Shortsword hits the Adv will be used for the Greatsword. Expected Damage = 20.3 GWM + TWF + 1x Greatsword + 2x Shortswords : Expected Damage = 22.3
Note: I didn't show the work for the weapon swapping option because there are three different cases which have to be calculated separately: 1) first shortsword hits -> Greatsword -> shortsword BA 2) first shortsword misses -> BA shortsword hits -> Greatsword 3) first shortsword misses -> BA shortsword misses -> Greatsword.
Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger can all get significant DPR benefits from their subclasses but these vary greatly depending on subclass, from +2d8 damage per turn from BB with Arcane Trickster, to +1d8 damage per round from Hunter, to 4d8/SR for Battlemaster, or 0 benefits to damage for other options.
I am using Weapon Masteries on Fighter (Greatsword build uses Graze, Halberd build uses Cleave, Rogue and Ranger use Vex). I'm not using swapping weapons because I doubt many players will do so routinely because the benefits to doing so are marginal at best when you start considering accuracy, Fighting Styles, Magic Items, and Feats:
E.g. 5th level: GWM + GWF + 2x Greatsword Attacks = 0.65*(7+4+.8)*2 + 0.88*3 (GWM) + 0.35*4*3 (Graze) = 22.2 GWM + GWF + 1x Greatsword + 2x Shortswords - if either Shortsword hits the Adv will be used for the Greatsword. Expected Damage = 20.3 GWM + TWF + 1x Greatsword + 2x Shortswords : Expected Damage = 22.3
Note: I didn't show the work for the weapon swapping option because there are three different cases which have to be calculated separately: 1) first shortsword hits -> Greatsword -> shortsword BA 2) first shortsword misses -> BA shortsword hits -> Greatsword 3) first shortsword misses -> BA shortsword misses -> Greatsword.
but basically you are looking at around 24 for most fighters at 5.
but that is without action surge, which adds 2-2.5 dpr per round assuming 2 encounters per SR or double that if you rest after each fight
5 isnt a great point of comparison for fighter. that represents only 1 power level range. it represents 2 for rogue. classes all have dif progressions again.
and while subclasses vary; in the 3-12 level range you say matters
2/8 rougue subs offer significant damage boosts
8/8 rangers
9/10fighters
8/10 monks
8/10 barbs
so the baseline rogue damage is fairly representative of rogues, but its not for the other classes.
and this fixates on fighters even though barb and monk, and paladin all surpass fighters at level 5 if they want, all in the 30+ range without subs.
even ranger via summon beast, zephyr, or hunter's mark.
(mostly because fighter is expected to get a power bump at 6, putting them at 30+ as I said)
No, they really don't, not if you account for limited uses, chances of losing concentration, and accuracy in the calculations. Rogue has solid resource-less damage comparable to all the other martials, some other martials have more nova options for sure, others can benefit from prepwork., but at the cost of weaker skills. If this weren't the case, everyone would play exclusively Rogues as all other classes would be simply weaker than Rogue at all aspects of the game.
No, they really don't, not if you account for limited uses, chances of losing concentration, and accuracy in the calculations. Rogue has solid resource-less damage comparable to all the other martials, some other martials have more nova options for sure, others can benefit from prepwork., but at the cost of weaker skills. If this weren't the case, everyone would play exclusively Rogues as all other classes would be simply weaker than Rogue at all aspects of the game.
you are highly overvaluing being resourceless. The game has rests. Everybody rests. So the in actual play, they will be competing with people with resources. This sounds the same as people saying before, monk is great because they don't need armor or weapons! when everybody basically has their armor and weapons unless the DM is just being a jerk.
Barbarian 3 - 1 additional class skill and can use strength while raging on Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth and Survival.
So 5 total proficiencies and ability to use strength on a couple of checks WHILE raging, which they have 3 of at level 3, which is not going to last sneaking around an entire dungeon/forest/etc and is a resource most barbarians will want to use on combat
Rogue gets
Rogue 1 - Proficiency: 4 class skills + Thieves tools + 2 background skills + 1 background tool; Expertise: 2 skills in which you are proficient
Rogue 6 - Expertise: 2 skills in which you are proficient
Rogue 7 - Reliable talent
So.... Barbarian has to expand a highly limited and valuable resource to compete in 5 skills, 2 of which are Dexterity (Stealth and Acrobatics), 2 of which are Wisdom (Perception & Survival) and the last which is Charisma (Intimidation). The biggest boon is going to be to intimidation, you can now try to intimidate to avoid a battle and if it fails, you still got your rage while after a battle. Perception might be good in dungeon but you'll lose it if you short rest and you certainly can't use it for keeping guard/patrol/etc since those take longer than 30 minutes normally. Acrobatics and Athletics overlap a lot, Barbarian already has good Athletics and Survival is also only good for short term, like a beast flees from the battlefield since again, you need to burn the rages. Stealth is limited in the same way.
Meanwhile the rogue, you benefit from there being two more dexterity checks then strength, having 2 skill proficiencies and 2 expertise from level 1, as well as having a tool proficiency, at level 6 you get another 2 expertise and at level 7 you basically can never fail any skill check you have proficiency for. So yes, at level 7 you leave Barbarian in the dust, since you left Barbarian in the dust from level 1, and they got a stop gap at level 3 which barely bridges the gap given it's heavy resource usage.
Now you say any but Monk, so how does that work for Fighter?
Fighter gets 2 class skills and 2 background skills at level 1 and that is it, nothing else
What about Paladin? well Paladin gets the exact same as Fighter... erm... maybe you mean that Paladin now gets ritual spells? That is a really long list.... 4 spells, 1 of which is Ceremony and another which is Purify food and drink. So it leaves Detect Magic, and Detect Poison and Disease... a paladin might be able to detect a magical trap/rune but not a mundane one. Rituals still take 10 minutes too cast too, which as detect magic lasts 10 minutes would mean the paladin would need to constantly be ritual casting to keep it up. Now a Paladin could get the guidance cantrip, via a feat or the blessed warrior fighting style, nobody uses the latter and rogue has access to the very same feat (magic initiate).
Rogue vs. Bard is technically more even you could call it either way.
Bard 2: Expertise: 2 skills with which you are proficient, half-proficiency: all skills
Bard 9: Expertise: 2 skills
Yes Bard gets half-proficiency in all skills, it a lot but often leaves it behind other classes that are more likely to take them, a Bard is not going to compete as well in stealth as a Rogue or as well in Arcana as a Wizard, it's a stop gap for where you have nobody covering those skills that a bard can do a better job. Bard gets expertise later than rogue and never gets anything to match reliable talent. Bard does get access to ritual spells, which do add a lot, but that all goes back to martial/caster imbalance anyway.
How about Ranger?
Ranger is the other expert class....
Ranger 1: 3 class skills + 2 background skills + 1 background tool, Expertise: 1 skill in which you are proficent
Ranger 9: Expertise: 1 skill in which you are proficent
Ranger gets 2 less skill proficiencies and 2 less expertise, admittedly Ranger does get better ritual spells than Paladin and also gets the spell pass without trace, making the entire party do well at stealth, even a paladin might be able to pass a stealth check if you're lucky. But overall it's still relatively equal.
This is before going into other casters, which again, yes ritual spell casting is overpowered but they in fact have less skills than rogue. But basically, at skills, Rogue wins hands down, ritual casting does take away from it a bit and goes back to spellcasters being overpowered but Rogue's only real competition is Bard and Ranger, which is what it should be. Rogue should have competition, not every party should have too choose to have a Rogue because they are so far a head nothing else compares. A ranger or bard that picks up thieves tools from background or feat should be able to cover most of what rogue covers.
You can get booming blade in multiple different ways, arcane trickster is one, magic initiate is another and multiclass is another, most of shadowblade is only adding an additional 1d8 over rapier and another method to get advantage, if you're a swashbuckler you have an alternative method to sneak attack, but then you get a higher initiative and will get better cunning strike options.
Moving away from magic, going for the dual hand crossbows, pick up Weapons Training and Crossbow Expert, now making two ranged attacks a round with A LOT of advantage FROM hand crossbows. At level 10, take charger to finish the +5 dex mod. As an assassin, you're getting your bonus 7/8 damage on the first round, unless you're surprised, you basically get to start with advantage in most combats and using hand crossbows... chances of missing two attacks with advantage are pretty slim. As a thief, once you hit level 9, you're basically perm invisible from a single hide by spamming stealth attack, sure not level 7 or 8 but that isn't the biggest issue.
Either way, you're basically going to keep up a lot of advantage as most rogue builds, where Barbarian has a huge cost to getting their advantage, they give advantage to all attacking rolls against themselves, so while theoretically Barbarian could out put a tonnage of damage, in practice, they ain't going to get as much because they have this other roll in combat while the rogue's other roll is out of combat but still vital to dungeon exploration. Which is why Barbarian defensive subclasses do quiet a bit less damage.
3rd level:
Rogue - 0.88*(3.5+7+3) = 12 DPR (at range or in melee)
Fighter:
two weapon fighting (Vex) - 0.8*(3.5+3)*2 = 10.4
Greatsword(Graze) = 0.65*(7+3)+0.35*3 = 7.55
Halberd(Cleave) = 0.65*(5.5+3)+0.25*0.65*(5.5) = 6.4
Shortbow(Vex) = 0.91*(3.5+3) = 5.9
Ranger adds Hunter's Mark to Greatsword (+2.3 damage=9.8) & Halberd (+2.8 damage=9.2) & Shortbow (+3.2 damage=9.1)
5th level
Rogue:
(XbowXpert) 0.8*(3.5+4)*2+0.96*(3.5*3) = 22 -> 24.5 with +1 weapon
(Charger) 0.65*(3.5+4+4.5) + 0.8*(3.5) + 0.88*3.5*3 = 20 -> 22.5 with +1 weapon
Fighter:
two weapon fighting (Charger) - 0.65*(3.5+4) + 0.8*(3.5+4)*2 +0.96*4.5 = 22.6 -> 24.9 with +1 weapon
Greatsword(GWM) = 0.65*(7+4)*2+0.35*4*2+0.88*3 = 19.7 -> 21.8 with +1 weapon
Halberd(PAM) = 0.65*(5.5+4)*2+0.25*0.65*(5.5)+0.65*(2.5+4) = 17.5 -> 20.9 with +1 weapon
HandXbow(XbowXpert) = 0.91*(3.5+4)*3 = 20.5 -> 24.2 with +1 weapon
Ranger adds Hunter's Mark to Greatsword (+4.5 damage = 23.5)
9th level
Rogue:
(XbowXpert) 0.8*(3.5+5)*2+0.96*(3.5*5) = 30.4 -> 33 with +1 weapon
(Charger) 0.65*(3.5+5+4.5) + 0.8*(3.5) + 0.88*3.5*5 = 26.7 -> 28.7 with +1 weapon
Fighter:
two weapon fighting (Charger+Sentinel+MageSlayer) - 0.65*(3.5+5) + 0.8*(3.5+5)*2.25 +0.96*4.5 = 25.1 -> 29.3 with +1 weapon
Greatsword(GWM+Sentinel+Charger) = 0.65*(7+5)*2.25+0.35*5*2+0.88*4 = 24.6 -> 27.3 with +1 weapon
Halberd(PAM+GWM+Sentinel) = 0.65*(5.5+5)*2.5+0.25*0.65*(5.5)+0.65*(2.5+5)+4 = 26.8 -> 31 with +1 weapon
HandXbow(XbowXpert+Charger+Sharpshooter) = 0.91*(3.5+5)*3+4.5 = 27.7-> 31.6 with +1 weapon
Ranger adds Hunter's Mark to Greatsword ( +5.1 damage)
Level 12
Rogue:
(XbowXpert+Charger) 0.8*(3.5+5)*2+0.8*4.5+0.96*(3.5*6) = 37.2 -> 39.1 with +1 weapon
Fighter:
two weapon fighting (Charger+Sentinel+MageSlayer) - 0.65*(3.5+5) + 0.8*(3.5+5)*3.25 +0.96*4.5 = 32 -> 34 with +1 weapon
Greatsword(GWM+Sentinel+Charger) = 0.65*(7+5)*3.25+0.35*5*2+5 = 33.9 -> 37.6 with +1 weapon
Halberd(PAM+GWM+Sentinel) = 0.65*(5.5+5)*3.5+0.25*0.65*(5.5)+0.65*(2.5+5)+4 = 33.7 -> 39.3 with +1 weapon
HandXbow(XbowXpert+Charger+Sharpshooter) = 0.91*(3.5+5)*4+4.5 = 35.44-> 41 with +1 weapon
Sorry, not seeing where Rogue is falling behind in DPR between levels 3-12...
Is this one of those "my class needs advantage to work so I'll calculate everything with advantage permanently bolted in, but this other class doesn't so it never ever gets advantage" that I so often see in this here thread?
Ah. Yes. I see it is.
Carry on.
I don't know where everyone thinks omnipresent advantage comes from. IME ranged attacks almost never have advantage, and melee attacks mainly get advantage through flanking which is super dependent on party composition, positioning, and initiative order. Except for Barbarians (Reckless) and Rogues (BA Hide / Steady Aim).
Beserker Barbarian is a clear outlier in terms of DPR in the UA, handily 50% ahead of other martials, but all the rest are pretty tightly packed for average dpr. Strategy can shift this a little - e.g. only using a Cleave weapon when you can get the secondary attack, or using a Topple weapon when you have Adv on your first attack (e.g. from Guiding Bolt) - but again that's hard to account for as it completely depends on what magic items you have and your party composition and the type of combats you go up against.
i'm guilty of occasionally misremembering sneak attack's "You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it" as conferring advantage. maybe that's a common thing that happens to lots of people? an easy mistake to make? definitely not early-onset dementia??
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
Yeah I don't get it. Rogues and barbarians can just turn advantage on so in my games they almost always have it, everyone else almost never does. Vex may change things in play but I kind of doubt it. They have not been the weapons players have gravitated to at my play test table.
Vex will increase it for sure, but only for a small number of builds, though TBH the above numbers surprised me with how well two-weapon fighting is holding up now if you use Vex weapons so maybe eventually people will realize that heavy weapons aren't the only viable build anymore.
(As you probably know) for Rogues, it's fairly easy, especially for ranged: just hide, or use Steady Aim.
And I've never seen a campaign use Flanking rules.
Yeah its damage is now fine, so id say something good is coming out of one in that build diversity in weapons has opened up a lot. I've generally seen in my players though that the people who want two light weapons frequently end up being the rogue players anyways. But for the fighters who want to do it, its now a mechanically roughly equal option.
your calcs are off.
at level 5, rogue cant use hand crossbows
in order to use hand crossbows and xbow expert they need a feat to add martial ranged weapons and the xbow expert feat, this means they wont have your projected power levels at 9, and they cant try xbow mastery at 5.
you compare to fighter, though fighter is known to be subpar damage wise in its base class before it gets its 6th level feat, which is probably why it has stronger earlier subclass power. But really everyone is surpassing rogue, not just barbarian.
your fighter isnt using any weapons swaps, for no logical reason. Why attack twice with a Halberd when you can attack once with a greatsword and once with a halbeard, you also ignore mastery on fighter for some reason. Also why not use graze glaive? Why does your two hand weapon fighter have no GWF fighting style? This is a tactical class who can use and benefit from multiple masteries, you assume they wont use tactics? or weapon swap?
your calc goes from 5-9, but the fighter is going to spend most of the time from 5-9 with two feats, 5 is an outlier for fighter, and that says more about different charachters getting different powers at different levels, than actual % of gameplay with that power level. Its a hassle, but if you really want to analyze power per playtime, and the value of various levels.
with current encounter recommendation math:
2700 exp from 3-4. suggested adventure day exp per day is 1200. = 2.25 days at level 3
6500 exp from 4-5 suggested adventure day exp per day is 1700= 3.82 days at level 4
14000 exp from 5-6 suggested adventure day exp per day is 3500= 4 days at level 5
23000 exp from 6-7 ' ''' 4000= 5.75 days at level 6
34000 ' ' from 7-8 6000= 5.67 days at level 7
48000 ' ' from 8-9 7500 =6.4 days at level 8
64000 ' ' from 9-10 9000=7.1 days at level 9
milestone in modules usually spends less or similar ratios of times at low levels. Milestone exp in tables cant really be measured.Its totally up to the DM
so overall, a level 3 calculation is of very low value, players will spend 2.25/34.99 adventuring days at this level. or 6% of their adventure time at this power level. Its only of any real interest as a starting point, how the game feels early.
the power bumps for fighter are, 3 4 5 6 8 11
if you want to choose the most important levels, they will spend 75% of thier playtime from 6-9 and 54% of their playtime from 7-9
fighter will only spend 20% of their time from 5-8 at level 5 power level, so its a very bad point to choose to represent thier power level in that level range
So comparing a fighters power during playtime of an average campaign, 6 is better point of selection
level 6 fighter PAM+charger will use greatsword first attack, and polearm 2nd and 3rd. graze if they think they wont have advantage
(7+1.33(gWF) + 5.5+.8(gwf) +2.5+(.5) gwf) x.65 + 4x3(mod always lands with graze)+ (4.5+.75(gwf)*.96) =28.49 dpr at 6-7 without action surge. With action surge, 1/8 rounds +2.34 per round from GS 2 attacks. with no sub, they are doing 30+ damage while the rogue is doing 23. Assassin has a damage bonus of 6 per encounter or 1.5 per round, thief has no bonus, swashbuckler has no bonus, inquisitive, mastermind, soulknife, scout, vast majority of thief subclasses are underpowered in exchange for OoC powers that arent really relatively strong.
your fighter numbers are off because you ignore gwf, ignore graze, even though you claim they will never have advantage, you never swap weapons, even when its useless to continue, like cleave all the time though its only good for 1 attack. And you use cleave even if you dont have any enemy to use it on.You arent actually playing the class as designed. Its a weapon master with 3-6 masteries, who can change the masteries around and swap weapons. And consideration of surge or subclasses. Im not asking you to do the math on everything, but reality is we know fighter will have a subclass adding
you pick sentinel, and then calculate an unknown use benefit. you only get 1 reaction, and if you use PAM you dont benefit from sentinel, and PAM is actually easier to trigger, because melee enemies have little choice but to enter your range, and its controllable by the party, or the player. Whereas for sentinel, all they have to do is attack you to prevent it, which is partially the goal, to become a high value target.
And on top of that, the rogue isnt actually better at skills anymore than any of these guys besides monk, until 7th level. At which point, they are almost always like 25-45% damage away from other classes.
Rogues get 2x Expertise at 1st level, and twice as many skills as monks get - if you can't make them better at skills with all that then that's on you.
Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger can all get significant DPR benefits from their subclasses but these vary greatly depending on subclass, from +2d8 damage per turn from BB with Arcane Trickster, to +1d8 damage per round from Hunter, to 4d8/SR for Battlemaster, or 0 benefits to damage for other options.
I am using Weapon Masteries on Fighter (Greatsword build uses Graze, Halberd build uses Cleave, Rogue and Ranger use Vex). I'm not using swapping weapons because I doubt many players will do so routinely because the benefits to doing so are marginal at best when you start considering accuracy, Fighting Styles, Magic Items, and Feats:
E.g. 5th level:
GWM + GWF + 2x Greatsword Attacks = 0.65*(7+4+.8)*2 + 0.88*3 (GWM) + 0.35*4*3 (Graze) = 22.2
GWM + GWF + 1x Greatsword + 2x Shortswords - if either Shortsword hits the Adv will be used for the Greatsword. Expected Damage = 20.3
GWM + TWF + 1x Greatsword + 2x Shortswords : Expected Damage = 22.3
Note: I didn't show the work for the weapon swapping option because there are three different cases which have to be calculated separately:
1) first shortsword hits -> Greatsword -> shortsword BA
2) first shortsword misses -> BA shortsword hits -> Greatsword
3) first shortsword misses -> BA shortsword misses -> Greatsword.
Alternatively:
PAM + GWF + 3x Glaive Attacks = 0.65*(5.5+4+0.8)*2+0.65*(3+4) + 3*0.35*4 = 22.14
PAM + GWF + Shortsword + Glaive main + Glaive BA + Scimitar =
Shortsword hits = 0.65 chance -> 3.5+4+0.88*(5.5+4+0.8)+0.12*4(Cleave)+0.65*(3+4)+0.35*4+0.65*(3.5)
Shortsword misses = 0.35 chance -> 0.65*(5.5+4+0.8)+0.35*4(Cleave)+0.65*(3+4)+0.35*4+0.65*(3.5)
Overall Expected DPR = 22.14
PAM + TWF + Shortsword + Glaive main + Glaive BA + Scimitar =
Shortsword hits = 0.65 chance -> 3.5+4+0.88*(5.5+4)+0.12*4(Cleave)+0.65*(3+4)+0.35*4+0.65*(3.5+4)
Shortsword misses = 0.35 chance -> 0.65*(5.5+4)+0.35*4(Cleave)+0.65*(3+4)+0.35*4+0.65*(3.5+4)
Overall Expected DPR = 24
uhh, I said monk was the only guy that they clearly beat with skills, not sure why you reiterated that.
you got some small errors/oversights there
but basically you are looking at around 24 for most fighters at 5.
but that is without action surge, which adds 2-2.5 dpr per round assuming 2 encounters per SR or double that if you rest after each fight
5 isnt a great point of comparison for fighter. that represents only 1 power level range. it represents 2 for rogue. classes all have dif progressions again.
and while subclasses vary; in the 3-12 level range you say matters
2/8 rougue subs offer significant damage boosts
8/8 rangers
9/10fighters
8/10 monks
8/10 barbs
so the baseline rogue damage is fairly representative of rogues, but its not for the other classes.
and this fixates on fighters even though barb and monk, and paladin all surpass fighters at level 5 if they want, all in the 30+ range without subs.
even ranger via summon beast, zephyr, or hunter's mark.
(mostly because fighter is expected to get a power bump at 6, putting them at 30+ as I said)
No, they really don't, not if you account for limited uses, chances of losing concentration, and accuracy in the calculations. Rogue has solid resource-less damage comparable to all the other martials, some other martials have more nova options for sure, others can benefit from prepwork., but at the cost of weaker skills. If this weren't the case, everyone would play exclusively Rogues as all other classes would be simply weaker than Rogue at all aspects of the game.
They beat every martial at skills, unless they're intentionally being built poorly.
Barbarian while raging is around the same though less freedom of skill choice, but otherwise its not even close.
not before 7.
I already previously posted the breakdown, not barbarian, not fighter, not ranger, not casters. that basically leaves monk.
you are highly overvaluing being resourceless. The game has rests. Everybody rests. So the in actual play, they will be competing with people with resources. This sounds the same as people saying before, monk is great because they don't need armor or weapons! when everybody basically has their armor and weapons unless the DM is just being a jerk.
resourceless is a poor excuse for being underpar.
Rogue beats Barbarian,
Barbarian 1 - Proficiency: 2 class skills + 2 background skills + 1 background tool
Barbarian 3 - 1 additional class skill and can use strength while raging on Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth and Survival.
So 5 total proficiencies and ability to use strength on a couple of checks WHILE raging, which they have 3 of at level 3, which is not going to last sneaking around an entire dungeon/forest/etc and is a resource most barbarians will want to use on combat
Rogue gets
Rogue 1 - Proficiency: 4 class skills + Thieves tools + 2 background skills + 1 background tool; Expertise: 2 skills in which you are proficient
Rogue 6 - Expertise: 2 skills in which you are proficient
Rogue 7 - Reliable talent
So.... Barbarian has to expand a highly limited and valuable resource to compete in 5 skills, 2 of which are Dexterity (Stealth and Acrobatics), 2 of which are Wisdom (Perception & Survival) and the last which is Charisma (Intimidation). The biggest boon is going to be to intimidation, you can now try to intimidate to avoid a battle and if it fails, you still got your rage while after a battle. Perception might be good in dungeon but you'll lose it if you short rest and you certainly can't use it for keeping guard/patrol/etc since those take longer than 30 minutes normally. Acrobatics and Athletics overlap a lot, Barbarian already has good Athletics and Survival is also only good for short term, like a beast flees from the battlefield since again, you need to burn the rages. Stealth is limited in the same way.
Meanwhile the rogue, you benefit from there being two more dexterity checks then strength, having 2 skill proficiencies and 2 expertise from level 1, as well as having a tool proficiency, at level 6 you get another 2 expertise and at level 7 you basically can never fail any skill check you have proficiency for. So yes, at level 7 you leave Barbarian in the dust, since you left Barbarian in the dust from level 1, and they got a stop gap at level 3 which barely bridges the gap given it's heavy resource usage.
Now you say any but Monk, so how does that work for Fighter?
Fighter gets 2 class skills and 2 background skills at level 1 and that is it, nothing else
What about Paladin? well Paladin gets the exact same as Fighter... erm... maybe you mean that Paladin now gets ritual spells? That is a really long list.... 4 spells, 1 of which is Ceremony and another which is Purify food and drink. So it leaves Detect Magic, and Detect Poison and Disease... a paladin might be able to detect a magical trap/rune but not a mundane one. Rituals still take 10 minutes too cast too, which as detect magic lasts 10 minutes would mean the paladin would need to constantly be ritual casting to keep it up. Now a Paladin could get the guidance cantrip, via a feat or the blessed warrior fighting style, nobody uses the latter and rogue has access to the very same feat (magic initiate).
Rogue vs. Bard is technically more even you could call it either way.
Bard 1: Proficiency: 3 class skills, 3 musical instruments + 2 background skills + 1 background tool
Bard 2: Expertise: 2 skills with which you are proficient, half-proficiency: all skills
Bard 9: Expertise: 2 skills
Yes Bard gets half-proficiency in all skills, it a lot but often leaves it behind other classes that are more likely to take them, a Bard is not going to compete as well in stealth as a Rogue or as well in Arcana as a Wizard, it's a stop gap for where you have nobody covering those skills that a bard can do a better job. Bard gets expertise later than rogue and never gets anything to match reliable talent. Bard does get access to ritual spells, which do add a lot, but that all goes back to martial/caster imbalance anyway.
How about Ranger?
Ranger is the other expert class....
Ranger 1: 3 class skills + 2 background skills + 1 background tool, Expertise: 1 skill in which you are proficent
Ranger 9: Expertise: 1 skill in which you are proficent
Ranger gets 2 less skill proficiencies and 2 less expertise, admittedly Ranger does get better ritual spells than Paladin and also gets the spell pass without trace, making the entire party do well at stealth, even a paladin might be able to pass a stealth check if you're lucky. But overall it's still relatively equal.
This is before going into other casters, which again, yes ritual spell casting is overpowered but they in fact have less skills than rogue. But basically, at skills, Rogue wins hands down, ritual casting does take away from it a bit and goes back to spellcasters being overpowered but Rogue's only real competition is Bard and Ranger, which is what it should be. Rogue should have competition, not every party should have too choose to have a Rogue because they are so far a head nothing else compares. A ranger or bard that picks up thieves tools from background or feat should be able to cover most of what rogue covers.