Of these three, my favourite is the Ranger (even though it does seem a little more Buzz Bard to me), but I'd also like to throw my hat into the summoning circle as regards the rogue, and why it's, y'know, a Rogue.
The Cleric calls for aid, the Fighter toughs it out, the Paladin isn't done and the Barbarian doesn't even notice. This Rogue, on the other hand, escaped. They ditched Death, pulled Persephone, allons-y'd outta Avernus, kicked the Keeper in the coinpurse, or something to that effect using guile, subterfuge or plain dumb luck. Other than stealing from dragons, that's sort of the whole point of the Rogue as a heroic archetype in folklore; to cheat everybody going, up to and including death. Usually these stories exist to point out "death is unbeatable" or "oh man this Mad Lad bloody well did it", but in any case they are not uncommon and there's always a price.
I'm not quite sure why the flavour text doesn't go this route and most of the given examples ring more Warlock (of the Undying or Hexblade, mainly) to me; nevertheless, based on the fundamental flavour and mechanics, this is 100% Rogue from my perspective. Especially that bit about having lived many lives; you learned how to cheat death for real, but if you're ever caught then about seven different afterlives will expect payment. I also love the bit where you bungee jump off this mortal coil just to ask some questions of some dead folks. I mean, it could just be that you happened to take the opportunity, but we all know how this feature is going to be used in practice and I genuinely find that brilliant. Death, however, will get sick of it fast, so try not to do it too often.
Three Examples of how classic Rogue flavour works for this archetype! (Warning: it is quarter to eight in the morning and I have not slept. Don't insomnia and write, kids. Unless you really want to.)
You could be on the run from the authorities, always watching your back, lying awake, terrified 'til you realise that don't actually need to sleep. Everyone just assumes you stole from some king or whatever... Thing is, you did, in a way. He'll be wanting his body back, for starters.
Or perhaps you're the classic dashing rapscallion. You've cheated death so many times that it's hard for you to even care. Everything is ephemeral, like snowfall in a river or breath on a mirror; how long has it been, now? Who cares? You've got one constant, You, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. What are they going to do, kill you? Mind you, you're starting to like these new friends and it's no telling how many centuries you'd be waiting, and knives hurt, so why not stick around?
Loveable Robin Hood type? We're in Eberron. You got back from Dolurrh. You returned. You weren't taken by The Keeper, you didn't see no grey fire, and you ain't seen a Halfling since you got mugged in Callestan, but you got back, and you think you know how. The Blood of Vol were right. The Powers that Be stole immortality from the world, and you're about to lead the greatest jailbreak in history... Or you will, once you remember how to work a body again.
(Also it's still totally cool to play any class as whatever flavour you like so long as you stick to the mechanics; the flavour police are a myth spread by the Ice Cream industry. Still, this rogue is verrrry Rogue to me.)
It feels like a sorcerer subclass. Being the incarnation of a dead person, or coming back from death with something more, is the perfect set up for an undead sorcerer. I don't actually hate the concept of a death-themed rogue (aside from it being the edgiest concept I can imagine, besides fallen aasimar bloodhunter), and if it was something like cheating death then i would be fine with that, but the flavor and abilities make no sense to me at all. Also, I know this means less, but a rogue subclass that has cheating death itself in the backstory is a bit much for a subclass.
Yeah. Again NOBODY is saying the flavor, or concept for a necromancy themed rogue is bad, but this idea makes NO sense as a subclass. Undead shouldn’t be a class option. Race? maybe. Background? Heck yeah! Class? Absolutely Not.
And i never said that there are “flavor police” BUT this edition is designed for newer players and They don't know that and this just sends hella mixed messages to those players.
If there was ever an argument for prestige classes, this is it. Not to say that prestige classes should be in 5e, it would not really work with subclasses. But this at least would make more sense then rune scribe.
If there was ever an argument for prestige classes, this is it. Not to say that prestige classes should be in 5e, it would not really work with subclasses. But this at least would make more sense then rune scribe.
Not to get too far off topic, but I think prestige classes absolutely could work in tandem with subclasses by replacing later sublcass features of two separate classes with one unique to the prestige class. It could also give some class combos function that everyone always wanted, but RAW doesn't actually grant (Monk/Rogue Unarmed Strike granting Sneak Attack, for example).
I like the base theme for the new fighter subclass but I’m left feeling underwhelmed by its abilities. I would have liked to see different affects based on what piece of equipment the rune was placed upon, making weapons deal additional damage of an element based on the rune and making armour give resistance to an element (or damage reduction akin to heavy armour master) rather than giving you a once per rest ability on a piece of equipment. For example why would putting the a rune on a sword give you resistance to poison and advantages on saves, and why would putting a rune on armour make you attacks ensnare you foes in chains.
As it stands I could carry around 2 daggers, keep them in my pack and never use them and still get the granted abilities.
In addition the name doesn’t feel like it fits the abilities, when I first saw Rune Knight I envisioned a Witcher style character not a fighter imbuing equipment with ancient runes. It makes the subclass seem more like an unused Artificer subclass rather than a fighter.
I am with you on the customizability for RK. I also was hoping to see defensive vs offensive buffs depending on the equipment type. It would be fun to have that level of control of your abilities.
The Rogue subclass is the one I don't get most. I mean, it seems more like it should be a race or a class unto itself. not to mention it seems rife for abuse. I mean, at level 6, you can start learning skills, tools, and saving throws left right and center. The Necrotic bolts don't make sense to me. having had the idea of the rogue who escapes death explained, that sounds interesting, but this doesn't sound like that. I like the Rune Knight. yes, the giant-rune connection is tied very specifically to the Forgotten Realms, but you know, there are does of races and subclasses tied very specifically to other realms so you can't play them in Forgotten Realms... (Very salty about Artificer being Eberron exclusive in AL, sorry), so this is just an extension of that. I like the mechanics, and it makes sense that you don't have to be using the item, since each item can only hold one rune and you will get access to almost all the runes by the end. I really like the Swarmkeeper. very easy to really theme your spells and abilities around this subclass.
I finally figured out what it is that offsets me about the Swarmkeeper. Its not specifically a gripe with this class (other than the fact that we are forgetting about Revised Ranger which i Will be butter about until the day i die) but its a core 5e design philosophy for subclasses occasionally where Every Single subclass feature you receive is a Time sensitive AND limited use ability. No proficiencies, no passives. Nothing that can be used no matter what and i really dont like that, and it happens occasionally with other subclasses too. It mostly just makes me sad.
I feel the need to point out the similarities to Matrim Cauthon from the Wheel Of Time, and Guard from the Dresden Files. Not a criticism, just an observation.
I think cheating death is a fine idea for a subclass, especially a Rogue subclass given the real-life folklore involved, but I agree that the subclass presented doesn't do the subject total justice. For instance, the death-bolts thing absolutely have nothing to do with the death-insight flavour, and I'd personally flavour the necrotic damage as sapping the time they have left via some sort of mishap (injuring themselves with some means available to them by accident, rocks fall etc; still necrotic damage mechanically and cosmically, but manifesting as a physical injury and unintentional on the character's part [but not the player's]). Really, I'd much prefer an ability to do with what you learned on the other side; some trick that allows you to mess around with people's souls via mundane means, see spirits, understand people's true intentions and get Sneak Attack that way... as well as a ribbon that allows you to see how healthy people are and thus perform minor medical miracles.
The flavour is all there but I fully agree that the mechanics don't support it as they should. Well, mechanic. All of the others are bang-on the money for me, though I think the teleportation should be something you build up to, learning to use those pathways that Psychopomps use to get around, exploring the boundaries of death as another rogue might explore a city.
All it is, is that I think the game would really benefit from a martial cheat-death class that actually feels like a martial epic hero. Speaking with dead is chill, but can we not be chucking magic energy about? More interesting to me is the idea that this character is such a superhuman escape artist, trickster or dirty fighter that they managed to momentarily evade Death Itself... and a moment was all they got. That's a really cool plot hook for starters, because unless your character is a career immortal who accidentally got caught in a low-level body, they are now a ticking clock running from the best-informed authorities in the universe. I agree, thanks to the Bolts from the Grave alone, this class does not feel like that class, and that's the flavour I was trying to defend, not so much the presented product (and I might honestly spiel this spiel in the survey though I sadly probably won't get to play before the deadline). I wasn't attacking anyone's opinions; sorry if it came off like that (I hadn't even read the entire thread yet, just had a flash of inspiration).
Anyway, I'm thinkin' your Rincewinds and Nightcrawlers, Sisyphuses and Asu-shu-namirs: People who are so impressive or quirky or bloody-minded or hot that they can therefore cheat death (hence all the rogue skills) and learned some tricks along the way. Not just a mage, same as any other mage, who only got impressive after they got out. Plus, there's not really any point in the sorcerer thing because the Divine Soul is so build-a-bear that all the class features you'd need are there already. Plus wings, which might not fit as well, but everything else is bang-on. Or the Shadow Sorcerer, which has this flavour built-in. Or the Aberrant Mind, with the tiniest reflavouring. This class could be something that isn't already here, something that I don't think really can easily be done with other classes.
Totally get if people disagree though. My thoughts are predicated on a world wherein PCs are non-standard exceptional people from levels 1-3 and also wherein martials can perform extraordinary feats without knowing their spellcraft from their runesmithing. That's not the Forgotten Realms, at all, but it is Eberron*, for instance. I totally get that not everyone likes playing that sort of game. If PCs are just regular people at the outset and these are things that everyone can do, it is very weird to have a regular subclass be this, not a prestige class. Plus, opinions. They're cool. :)
*Eberron works incredibly well, actually, for two main reasons: 1. Cheating death is either doable but cursed and evil (Vassal Faith) or really super hard but possible (Blood of Vol), and even if those religions aren't accurate in your campaign... 2. The Land of the Dead, Dolurrh, is a location you can go to. The Dead can be visited... but the Lawful Lawful caretakers of the dead will not approve. They are, in theory, fallible, even perhaps to incoming souls... They've never been beaten, but the whole point of Eberron (one of many) is that the PCs can do stuff that nobody has ever done before, because they're just as awesome as the old myths.
I don't think it has to be edgy either, no more so than the Rogue already is. I mean, your main class feature is murder. Strategic, unsportsmanlike, dishonourable murdering that can one-shot any average Joe at first level. This subclass could be waaay lighter than, say, the Assassin: "Technically, I'm the subject of a custody battle between my uncle Azzie, who's weird and smells of brimstone, and Bahamut, whom I worship. Turns out first-born contracts don't super hold up once I become of age, but there's a discrepancy between Circles law and Heavens law around when exactly that happens; apparently Kingdoms law is super archaic and honestly thank Bahamut for that. Anyway, the folks in Mechanus decided that this was a bit unfair so I don't have to show up until they've sorted out whose legal system I fall under, and that could honestly be a few centuries down the line so long as I'm not stupid with my corporeal form."
i keep envisioning the rogue subclass as being more of a replacement for your current class. like your a paladin who died ; but you said "im not done" you claw your way back to unlife. BUT your no longer a paladin you have forsaken that in you per-suite to continue *whatever* it was you were doing. so now your class is rogue, yes there is an issue of how you get certain abilities like being more stealthy ect. but you dont need to actually use thieves tools stealth could be like darkness sticks to you cloaking you, put you expertise into physical abilities like athletics the to show your unholy strength or endurance.
in this way it could be used to continue the story of a pc thats died same person but everything changed. but you get to continue with a character persona you enjoyed and you get to add a new arc to his story as he copes with his new existence.
I've thought about this quite a bit, and I've come to a conclusion as to why I don't like the Revived Rogue archetype. Very few classes have a narrative aspect that for the character is out of their control when it comes to picking options. Sorcerers are pretty much it when you get down to it. Every Sorcerer has this magic innately, especially with how they describe the various origins. All other classes have it where your characters background and choices determine the path they go on, but the sorcerer stands alone as the guy who ends up having magic be a part of them and has to learn how to handle it.
The Revived Rogue is basically an archetype that the rogue doesn't have a real choice in if they get it. The rogue in question might have been heading towards being an accomplished Thief or Swashbuckler, and suddenly a single near death experience or dream locks them into a path that they hadn't worked towards. Mechanically, I understand how one could pick that. But it reads like some bad tropes.
I love the idea of the Revived rogue as a kind of trickster archetype (the one who outwitted Death) in a mythology-inspired game, but that's a very narrow niche.
The Revived does nothing for me mostly because it feels like a subclass in search of a class. Nothing about it says "Rogue" to me. It feels more like a background that got turned into a subclass.
For a revived rogue archetype you could maybe go for a character who stole from an ancient tomb and is cursed to keep coming back until they replace the artifact or something like that
But to me flavour-wise the Revived subclass makes more sense as a ranger option as a buffy-the-vampire-slayer type who keeps getting reincarnated to fight against the same favoured enemy. In every generation there is born the Dragon Slayer "I've been fighting against the dragons for a thousand years, sometimes I kill them, sometimes they kill me, but the eternal war continues".
For a revived rogue archetype you could maybe go for a character who stole from an ancient tomb and is cursed to keep coming back until they replace the artifact or something like that
But to me flavour-wise the Revived subclass makes more sense as a ranger option as a buffy-the-vampire-slayer type who keeps getting reincarnated to fight against the same favoured enemy. In every generation there is born the Dragon Slayer "I've been fighting against the dragons for a thousand years, sometimes I kill them, sometimes they kill me, but the eternal war continues".
like link in legend of zelda right down to the energy attack!
For the Revived Rogue...I picture an eternal struggle against a lich.
Sort of a chess-match that carries across the centuries...the lich has this grand master plan, but every century or so, this same rogue just appears to meddle with his schemes.
At first, the lich just destroys the rogue as easily as you'd snuff a candle...but after the second or the third time, the lich takes notice. After all...a lich really doesn't care about mortals at this point. Their attention is lost to time.
I'd picture this odd sort of rivalry, similar to Sherlock & Moriarty or Batman & Joker, where the lich finds amusement in this odd distraction the rogue provides, and the rogue is driven by this sense of dread...that all his past lives have been fighting this lich for some huge reason.
Maybe it could have a story purpose...maybe somehow the rogue became tied to the lich's phylactery, and cannot "die" while the lich still lives.
Really, I do like the story a subclass like this provides. The features need tweaking; but it has roleplay potential.
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Of these three, my favourite is the Ranger (even though it does seem a little more Buzz Bard to me), but I'd also like to throw my hat into the summoning circle as regards the rogue, and why it's, y'know, a Rogue.
The Cleric calls for aid, the Fighter toughs it out, the Paladin isn't done and the Barbarian doesn't even notice. This Rogue, on the other hand, escaped. They ditched Death, pulled Persephone, allons-y'd outta Avernus, kicked the Keeper in the coinpurse, or something to that effect using guile, subterfuge or plain dumb luck. Other than stealing from dragons, that's sort of the whole point of the Rogue as a heroic archetype in folklore; to cheat everybody going, up to and including death. Usually these stories exist to point out "death is unbeatable" or "oh man this Mad Lad bloody well did it", but in any case they are not uncommon and there's always a price.
I'm not quite sure why the flavour text doesn't go this route and most of the given examples ring more Warlock (of the Undying or Hexblade, mainly) to me; nevertheless, based on the fundamental flavour and mechanics, this is 100% Rogue from my perspective. Especially that bit about having lived many lives; you learned how to cheat death for real, but if you're ever caught then about seven different afterlives will expect payment. I also love the bit where you bungee jump off this mortal coil just to ask some questions of some dead folks. I mean, it could just be that you happened to take the opportunity, but we all know how this feature is going to be used in practice and I genuinely find that brilliant. Death, however, will get sick of it fast, so try not to do it too often.
Three Examples of how classic Rogue flavour works for this archetype! (Warning: it is quarter to eight in the morning and I have not slept. Don't insomnia and write, kids. Unless you really want to.)
You could be on the run from the authorities, always watching your back, lying awake, terrified 'til you realise that don't actually need to sleep. Everyone just assumes you stole from some king or whatever... Thing is, you did, in a way. He'll be wanting his body back, for starters.
Or perhaps you're the classic dashing rapscallion. You've cheated death so many times that it's hard for you to even care. Everything is ephemeral, like snowfall in a river or breath on a mirror; how long has it been, now? Who cares? You've got one constant, You, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. What are they going to do, kill you? Mind you, you're starting to like these new friends and it's no telling how many centuries you'd be waiting, and knives hurt, so why not stick around?
Loveable Robin Hood type? We're in Eberron. You got back from Dolurrh. You returned. You weren't taken by The Keeper, you didn't see no grey fire, and you ain't seen a Halfling since you got mugged in Callestan, but you got back, and you think you know how. The Blood of Vol were right. The Powers that Be stole immortality from the world, and you're about to lead the greatest jailbreak in history... Or you will, once you remember how to work a body again.
(Also it's still totally cool to play any class as whatever flavour you like so long as you stick to the mechanics; the flavour police are a myth spread by the Ice Cream industry. Still, this rogue is verrrry Rogue to me.)
It feels like a sorcerer subclass. Being the incarnation of a dead person, or coming back from death with something more, is the perfect set up for an undead sorcerer. I don't actually hate the concept of a death-themed rogue (aside from it being the edgiest concept I can imagine, besides fallen aasimar bloodhunter), and if it was something like cheating death then i would be fine with that, but the flavor and abilities make no sense to me at all. Also, I know this means less, but a rogue subclass that has cheating death itself in the backstory is a bit much for a subclass.
Yeah. Again NOBODY is saying the flavor, or concept for a necromancy themed rogue is bad, but this idea makes NO sense as a subclass. Undead shouldn’t be a class option. Race? maybe. Background? Heck yeah! Class? Absolutely Not.
And i never said that there are “flavor police” BUT this edition is designed for newer players and They don't know that and this just sends hella mixed messages to those players.
If there was ever an argument for prestige classes, this is it. Not to say that prestige classes should be in 5e, it would not really work with subclasses. But this at least would make more sense then rune scribe.
Not to get too far off topic, but I think prestige classes absolutely could work in tandem with subclasses by replacing later sublcass features of two separate classes with one unique to the prestige class. It could also give some class combos function that everyone always wanted, but RAW doesn't actually grant (Monk/Rogue Unarmed Strike granting Sneak Attack, for example).
I am with you on the customizability for RK. I also was hoping to see defensive vs offensive buffs depending on the equipment type. It would be fun to have that level of control of your abilities.
The Rogue subclass is the one I don't get most. I mean, it seems more like it should be a race or a class unto itself. not to mention it seems rife for abuse. I mean, at level 6, you can start learning skills, tools, and saving throws left right and center. The Necrotic bolts don't make sense to me. having had the idea of the rogue who escapes death explained, that sounds interesting, but this doesn't sound like that.
I like the Rune Knight. yes, the giant-rune connection is tied very specifically to the Forgotten Realms, but you know, there are does of races and subclasses tied very specifically to other realms so you can't play them in Forgotten Realms... (Very salty about Artificer being Eberron exclusive in AL, sorry), so this is just an extension of that. I like the mechanics, and it makes sense that you don't have to be using the item, since each item can only hold one rune and you will get access to almost all the runes by the end.
I really like the Swarmkeeper. very easy to really theme your spells and abilities around this subclass.
I finally figured out what it is that offsets me about the Swarmkeeper. Its not specifically a gripe with this class (other than the fact that we are forgetting about Revised Ranger which i Will be butter about until the day i die) but its a core 5e design philosophy for subclasses occasionally where Every Single subclass feature you receive is a Time sensitive AND limited use ability. No proficiencies, no passives. Nothing that can be used no matter what and i really dont like that, and it happens occasionally with other subclasses too. It mostly just makes me sad.
I feel the need to point out the similarities to Matrim Cauthon from the Wheel Of Time, and Guard from the Dresden Files. Not a criticism, just an observation.
I think cheating death is a fine idea for a subclass, especially a Rogue subclass given the real-life folklore involved, but I agree that the subclass presented doesn't do the subject total justice. For instance, the death-bolts thing absolutely have nothing to do with the death-insight flavour, and I'd personally flavour the necrotic damage as sapping the time they have left via some sort of mishap (injuring themselves with some means available to them by accident, rocks fall etc; still necrotic damage mechanically and cosmically, but manifesting as a physical injury and unintentional on the character's part [but not the player's]). Really, I'd much prefer an ability to do with what you learned on the other side; some trick that allows you to mess around with people's souls via mundane means, see spirits, understand people's true intentions and get Sneak Attack that way... as well as a ribbon that allows you to see how healthy people are and thus perform minor medical miracles.
The flavour is all there but I fully agree that the mechanics don't support it as they should. Well, mechanic. All of the others are bang-on the money for me, though I think the teleportation should be something you build up to, learning to use those pathways that Psychopomps use to get around, exploring the boundaries of death as another rogue might explore a city.
All it is, is that I think the game would really benefit from a martial cheat-death class that actually feels like a martial epic hero. Speaking with dead is chill, but can we not be chucking magic energy about? More interesting to me is the idea that this character is such a superhuman escape artist, trickster or dirty fighter that they managed to momentarily evade Death Itself... and a moment was all they got. That's a really cool plot hook for starters, because unless your character is a career immortal who accidentally got caught in a low-level body, they are now a ticking clock running from the best-informed authorities in the universe. I agree, thanks to the Bolts from the Grave alone, this class does not feel like that class, and that's the flavour I was trying to defend, not so much the presented product (and I might honestly spiel this spiel in the survey though I sadly probably won't get to play before the deadline). I wasn't attacking anyone's opinions; sorry if it came off like that (I hadn't even read the entire thread yet, just had a flash of inspiration).
Anyway, I'm thinkin' your Rincewinds and Nightcrawlers, Sisyphuses and Asu-shu-namirs: People who are so impressive or quirky or bloody-minded or hot that they can therefore cheat death (hence all the rogue skills) and learned some tricks along the way. Not just a mage, same as any other mage, who only got impressive after they got out. Plus, there's not really any point in the sorcerer thing because the Divine Soul is so build-a-bear that all the class features you'd need are there already. Plus wings, which might not fit as well, but everything else is bang-on. Or the Shadow Sorcerer, which has this flavour built-in. Or the Aberrant Mind, with the tiniest reflavouring.
This class could be something that isn't already here, something that I don't think really can easily be done with other classes.
Totally get if people disagree though. My thoughts are predicated on a world wherein PCs are non-standard exceptional people from levels 1-3 and also wherein martials can perform extraordinary feats without knowing their spellcraft from their runesmithing. That's not the Forgotten Realms, at all, but it is Eberron*, for instance. I totally get that not everyone likes playing that sort of game. If PCs are just regular people at the outset and these are things that everyone can do, it is very weird to have a regular subclass be this, not a prestige class. Plus, opinions. They're cool. :)
*Eberron works incredibly well, actually, for two main reasons:
1. Cheating death is either doable but cursed and evil (Vassal Faith) or really super hard but possible (Blood of Vol), and even if those religions aren't accurate in your campaign...
2. The Land of the Dead, Dolurrh, is a location you can go to. The Dead can be visited... but the Lawful Lawful caretakers of the dead will not approve. They are, in theory, fallible, even perhaps to incoming souls... They've never been beaten, but the whole point of Eberron (one of many) is that the PCs can do stuff that nobody has ever done before, because they're just as awesome as the old myths.
I don't think it has to be edgy either, no more so than the Rogue already is. I mean, your main class feature is murder. Strategic, unsportsmanlike, dishonourable murdering that can one-shot any average Joe at first level. This subclass could be waaay lighter than, say, the Assassin:
"Technically, I'm the subject of a custody battle between my uncle Azzie, who's weird and smells of brimstone, and Bahamut, whom I worship. Turns out first-born contracts don't super hold up once I become of age, but there's a discrepancy between Circles law and Heavens law around when exactly that happens; apparently Kingdoms law is super archaic and honestly thank Bahamut for that. Anyway, the folks in Mechanus decided that this was a bit unfair so I don't have to show up until they've sorted out whose legal system I fall under, and that could honestly be a few centuries down the line so long as I'm not stupid with my corporeal form."
It's sad, if rune knight gets finalized, we'll probably never get rune making in the game.
Also plz nerf heroism paladin.
heheh get rickrolled xdddddd
we should at the very least have gotten rune wizard before rune knight. also not make it giant themed
i keep envisioning the rogue subclass as being more of a replacement for your current class. like your a paladin who died ; but you said "im not done" you claw your way back to unlife. BUT your no longer a paladin you have forsaken that in you per-suite to continue *whatever* it was you were doing. so now your class is rogue, yes there is an issue of how you get certain abilities like being more stealthy ect. but you dont need to actually use thieves tools stealth could be like darkness sticks to you cloaking you, put you expertise into physical abilities like athletics the to show your unholy strength or endurance.
in this way it could be used to continue the story of a pc thats died same person but everything changed. but you get to continue with a character persona you enjoyed and you get to add a new arc to his story as he copes with his new existence.
I've thought about this quite a bit, and I've come to a conclusion as to why I don't like the Revived Rogue archetype. Very few classes have a narrative aspect that for the character is out of their control when it comes to picking options. Sorcerers are pretty much it when you get down to it. Every Sorcerer has this magic innately, especially with how they describe the various origins. All other classes have it where your characters background and choices determine the path they go on, but the sorcerer stands alone as the guy who ends up having magic be a part of them and has to learn how to handle it.
The Revived Rogue is basically an archetype that the rogue doesn't have a real choice in if they get it. The rogue in question might have been heading towards being an accomplished Thief or Swashbuckler, and suddenly a single near death experience or dream locks them into a path that they hadn't worked towards. Mechanically, I understand how one could pick that. But it reads like some bad tropes.
I love the idea of the Revived rogue as a kind of trickster archetype (the one who outwitted Death) in a mythology-inspired game, but that's a very narrow niche.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
The Revived does nothing for me mostly because it feels like a subclass in search of a class. Nothing about it says "Rogue" to me. It feels more like a background that got turned into a subclass.
For a revived rogue archetype you could maybe go for a character who stole from an ancient tomb and is cursed to keep coming back until they replace the artifact or something like that
But to me flavour-wise the Revived subclass makes more sense as a ranger option as a buffy-the-vampire-slayer type who keeps getting reincarnated to fight against the same favoured enemy. In every generation there is born the Dragon Slayer "I've been fighting against the dragons for a thousand years, sometimes I kill them, sometimes they kill me, but the eternal war continues".
Thats a sorcerer option
like link in legend of zelda right down to the energy attack!
For the Revived Rogue...I picture an eternal struggle against a lich.
Sort of a chess-match that carries across the centuries...the lich has this grand master plan, but every century or so, this same rogue just appears to meddle with his schemes.
At first, the lich just destroys the rogue as easily as you'd snuff a candle...but after the second or the third time, the lich takes notice. After all...a lich really doesn't care about mortals at this point. Their attention is lost to time.
I'd picture this odd sort of rivalry, similar to Sherlock & Moriarty or Batman & Joker, where the lich finds amusement in this odd distraction the rogue provides, and the rogue is driven by this sense of dread...that all his past lives have been fighting this lich for some huge reason.
Maybe it could have a story purpose...maybe somehow the rogue became tied to the lich's phylactery, and cannot "die" while the lich still lives.
Really, I do like the story a subclass like this provides. The features need tweaking; but it has roleplay potential.