Except we have direct confirmation from the devs saying that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks.
Yes, but they are not “light” weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F i g h t i n g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand....
Technically, RAW, you can’t give ‘em the ol’ one-two!
Except we have direct confirmation from the devs saying that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks.
Yes, but they are not “light” weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F i g h t i n g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand....
Technically, RAW, you can’t give ‘em the ol’ one-two!
That would be up to the DM to be able to get that working right, but since getting access to a second fighting style is just a matter of multiclassing. If a Player really wanted to take both Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Unarmed Style I would let them its not gonna break anything. The Damage is no higher that someone using 2 Shortswords, or 2 Handaxes.
Except we have direct confirmation from the devs saying that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks.
Yes, but they are not “light” weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F i g h t i n g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand....
Technically, RAW, you can’t give ‘em the ol’ one-two!
That would be up to the DM to be able to get that working right, but since getting access to a second fighting style is just a matter of multiclassing. If a Player really wanted to take both Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Unarmed Style I would let them its not gonna break anything. The Damage is no higher that someone using 2 Shortswords, or 2 Handaxes.
DM does have final say and can over rule the rules, but the rules are not vague about this. Fists are not light weapons or even any kind of weapon.
Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks, but are not "attacks made with a weapon." Moreover, unarmed strikes are not limited to punches.
Except we have direct confirmation from the devs saying that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks.
Yes, but they are not “light” weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F i g h t i n g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand....
Technically, RAW, you can’t give ‘em the ol’ one-two!
That would be up to the DM to be able to get that working right, but since getting access to a second fighting style is just a matter of multiclassing. If a Player really wanted to take both Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Unarmed Style I would let them its not gonna break anything. The Damage is no higher that someone using 2 Shortswords, or 2 Handaxes.
No need for the second Fighting Style. Any Character with two light weapons in their hands can use their Bonus Action to attack with the second hand.
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
Different from
Two Weapon Fighting Style
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
Except we have direct confirmation from the devs saying that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks.
Yes, but they are not “light” weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F i g h t i n g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand....
Technically, RAW, you can’t give ‘em the ol’ one-two!
That would be up to the DM to be able to get that working right, but since getting access to a second fighting style is just a matter of multiclassing. If a Player really wanted to take both Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Unarmed Style I would let them its not gonna break anything. The Damage is no higher that someone using 2 Shortswords, or 2 Handaxes.
DM does have final say and can over rule the rules, but the rules are not vague about this. Fists are not light weapons or even any kind of weapon.
Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks, but are not "attacks made with a weapon." Moreover, unarmed strikes are not limited to punches.
Unarmed strikes are melee attack, not melee weapon attacks there is a difference there.
Unarmed strikes are melee attack, not melee weapon attacks there is a difference there.
Here is the relevant rule:
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons).
You can use an unarmed strike to make a melee weapon attack. The term "weapon attack" in 5e just means not spell attack (aka physical attack). Not counting an unarmed strike as a weapon attack might fail to trigger some abilities that should work (like for example barbarian rage damage).
Unarmed strikes are melee attack, not melee weapon attacks there is a difference there.
Here is the relevant rule:
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons).
You can use an unarmed strike to make a melee weapon attack. The term "weapon attack" in 5e just means not spell attack (aka physical attack). Not counting an unarmed strike as a weapon attack might fail to trigger some abilities that should work (like for example barbarian rage damage).
That is instead of making a melee weapon attack, both are melee attacks only one is with weapons. ( There is also Spell melee attacks that don't use weapons such as contagion.)
An unarmed strike still counts as a “Melee Weapon Attack” the rules a very clear about that. Unfortunately though, fists/feet/knees/heads/other body parts do not count as “light” weapons.
Unarmed strikes are melee attack, not melee weapon attacks there is a difference there.
Here is the relevant rule:
Instead of using a weapon to make a melee weapon attack, you can use an unarmed strike: a punch, kick, head-butt, or similar forceful blow (none of which count as weapons).
You can use an unarmed strike to make a melee weapon attack. The term "weapon attack" in 5e just means not spell attack (aka physical attack). Not counting an unarmed strike as a weapon attack might fail to trigger some abilities that should work (like for example barbarian rage damage).
That is instead of making a melee weapon attack, both are melee attacks only one is with weapons. ( There is also Spell melee attacks that don't use weapons such as contagion.)
Can a monk use Stunning Strike with an unarmed strike, even though unarmed strikes aren’t weapons?
Yes. Stunning Strike works with melee weapon attacks, and an unarmed strike is a special type of melee weapon attack.
The game often makes exceptions to general rules, and this is an important exception: that unarmed strikes count as melee weapon attacks despite not being weapons.
What does “melee weapon attack” mean: a melee attack with a weapon or an attack with a melee weapon?
It means a melee attack with a weapon. Similarly, “ranged weapon attack” means a ranged attack with a weapon. Some attacks count as a melee or ranged weapon attack even if a weapon isn’t involved, as specified in the text of those attacks. For example, an unarmed strike counts as a melee weapon attack, even though the attacker’s body isn’t considered a weapon.
Here’s a bit of wording minutia: we would write “melee-weapon attack” (with a hyphen) if we meant an attack with a melee weapon.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Interesting thread. I definitely feel that unarmed fighting is underrepresented in D&D. Now, to be fair, punching doesn't work great against most kinds of armor, or most non-humanoid creatures- even most decent sized animals are probably going to be more annoyed than harmed by a human fist, and if you try getting into a punch up with a brown bear, let alone an owlbear, you're gonna have a bad day.
But this is fantasy, and being able to wrestle a gryphon or pummel a beholder is extremely cool, so let's hear it for all forms of monster punchers and masked luchadores who want to mix it up out in the wilds.
I agree with Yurei, the idea that only monks can punch things is silly. Unarmed combat has existed in every culture, and the whole monk class is a weird holdover from D&D's racially questionable past anyway (don't get me wrong, I still love them).
Anyway, this thread has been very enlightening, as i'm considering the Unarmed Fighting Style for my next char. We're starting an Eberron campaign, and it's all new to me, so I figured why not stack a bunch of new stuff together? My pitch: An experimental warforged imbued with runic magic (Rune Knight), who uses Unarmed Fighting (he's made of metal, so weapons seem redundant).
I know it's gonna be heavily suboptimized, but in D&D you can either optimize or run with a theme, you can rarely do both.
Thoughts? I'm looking at the Grappler and Tavern Brawler feats, obv, but i'm not 100% sure how well they stack with UAF.
Anyway thanks for all the insights so far, everyone!
Heh. Being able to war fist an owlbear is no more questionable than a rogue being able to slice off a quarter of an adult dragon's hit points with a 1d4 dagger by scoring a crit sneak attack. If one is willing to allow rogues to "find a weak point" to stick their four-inch blade into on a creature whose skin is likely more than four inches thick and deal catastrophic damage in the doing, allowing someone to indulge in fisticuffs against the Slavering Hordes of Evil is really not a stretch.
There are four kinds of "Attack Roll": Melee weapon, ranged weapon, melee spell, and ranged spell. Unarmed attacks are a "Melee Weapon" attack roll and an unarmedf strike qualifies for anything that requires a "Melee Weapon" attack roll.
Your naked monkey paws do not, however, count as 'weapons', which means that any buff or ability which specifically requires you to be holding a weapon does not function on your naked monkey paws short of DM fiat.
This is a result of unfortunate wording choices from Wizards, who are terrible at their jobs and should really know better, but the breakdown is generally well established and understood at this point via multiple tweets and Sage Advice thingumies.
The fact that punching someone with your fist is a "melee weapon attack" but your fist is not a "melee weapon" is infuriating. It's understandable why people are confused by this.
The fact that punching someone with your fist is a "melee weapon attack" but your fist is not a "melee weapon" is infuriating. It's understandable why people are confused by this.
Confusion is understandable, but it makes some sense if you think about it.
Unarmed strikes are not weapons for any spell or ability that cares about weapons, but they hit like a weapon for any spell or ability that cares about attacks.
The fact that punching someone with your fist is a "melee weapon attack" but your fist is not a "melee weapon" is infuriating. It's understandable why people are confused by this.
Confusion is understandable, but it makes some sense if you think about it.
Unarmed strikes are not weapons for any spell or ability that cares about weapons, but they hit like a weapon for any spell or ability that cares about attacks.
The confusion would be eliminated if they called them "melee physical attacks" instead.
Same brackets, slightly wonkier wording on the physical strikes, but given that many 'weapon' attacks do not involve a physical component, using 'combat' instead would potentially induce less confusion. I do understand the irritation over unarmed attacks being "melee attacks" but not "melee weapons". I've seen better ways of handling it in other game systems (mostly by stating that enhanced unarmed strikes count as 'natural weapons'), but 5e's overwhelming, psychotic-obsession need to oversimplify everything strikes again.
I agree with your feelings about the “overwhelming, psychotic-obsession need to oversimplify everything”
As a note, I would personally also recommend a change to “Ranged Magic Attack” and “Melee Magic Attack” as those would also avoid confusion and allow for “Magic Attacks” that are not “Spells” (such as Psionics maybe 🤞)
Except we have direct confirmation from the devs saying that unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks.
Yes, but they are not “light” weapons.
Two-W e a p o n F i g h t i n g
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand....
Technically, RAW, you can’t give ‘em the ol’ one-two!
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That would be up to the DM to be able to get that working right, but since getting access to a second fighting style is just a matter of multiclassing. If a Player really wanted to take both Two-Weapon Fighting Style and the Unarmed Style I would let them its not gonna break anything. The Damage is no higher that someone using 2 Shortswords, or 2 Handaxes.
DM does have final say and can over rule the rules, but the rules are not vague about this. Fists are not light weapons or even any kind of weapon.
Unarmed strikes are melee weapon attacks, but are not "attacks made with a weapon." Moreover, unarmed strikes are not limited to punches.
No need for the second Fighting Style. Any Character with two light weapons in their hands can use their Bonus Action to attack with the second hand.
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PHB page 195-
Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand. You don't add your ability modifier to the damage of the bonus attack, unless that modifier is negative. If either weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon, instead of making a melee attack with it.
Different from
Two Weapon Fighting Style
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
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Unarmed strikes are melee attack, not melee weapon attacks there is a difference there.
Here is the relevant rule:
You can use an unarmed strike to make a melee weapon attack. The term "weapon attack" in 5e just means not spell attack (aka physical attack). Not counting an unarmed strike as a weapon attack might fail to trigger some abilities that should work (like for example barbarian rage damage).
That is instead of making a melee weapon attack, both are melee attacks only one is with weapons. ( There is also Spell melee attacks that don't use weapons such as contagion.)
There are four types of attack in 5e:
An unarmed strike still counts as a “Melee Weapon Attack” the rules a very clear about that. Unfortunately though, fists/feet/knees/heads/other body parts do not count as “light” weapons.
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An Unarmed Strike definitively is a Melee Weapon Attack:
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Interesting thread. I definitely feel that unarmed fighting is underrepresented in D&D. Now, to be fair, punching doesn't work great against most kinds of armor, or most non-humanoid creatures- even most decent sized animals are probably going to be more annoyed than harmed by a human fist, and if you try getting into a punch up with a brown bear, let alone an owlbear, you're gonna have a bad day.
But this is fantasy, and being able to wrestle a gryphon or pummel a beholder is extremely cool, so let's hear it for all forms of monster punchers and masked luchadores who want to mix it up out in the wilds.
I agree with Yurei, the idea that only monks can punch things is silly. Unarmed combat has existed in every culture, and the whole monk class is a weird holdover from D&D's racially questionable past anyway (don't get me wrong, I still love them).
Anyway, this thread has been very enlightening, as i'm considering the Unarmed Fighting Style for my next char. We're starting an Eberron campaign, and it's all new to me, so I figured why not stack a bunch of new stuff together? My pitch: An experimental warforged imbued with runic magic (Rune Knight), who uses Unarmed Fighting (he's made of metal, so weapons seem redundant).
I know it's gonna be heavily suboptimized, but in D&D you can either optimize or run with a theme, you can rarely do both.
Thoughts? I'm looking at the Grappler and Tavern Brawler feats, obv, but i'm not 100% sure how well they stack with UAF.
Anyway thanks for all the insights so far, everyone!
Heh. Being able to war fist an owlbear is no more questionable than a rogue being able to slice off a quarter of an adult dragon's hit points with a 1d4 dagger by scoring a crit sneak attack. If one is willing to allow rogues to "find a weak point" to stick their four-inch blade into on a creature whose skin is likely more than four inches thick and deal catastrophic damage in the doing, allowing someone to indulge in fisticuffs against the Slavering Hordes of Evil is really not a stretch.
Please do not contact or message me.
FYI, historically speaking, the average dagger was about a foot long.
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The fact that punching someone with your fist is a "melee weapon attack" but your fist is not a "melee weapon" is infuriating. It's understandable why people are confused by this.
Confusion is understandable, but it makes some sense if you think about it.
Unarmed strikes are not weapons for any spell or ability that cares about weapons, but they hit like a weapon for any spell or ability that cares about attacks.
The confusion would be eliminated if they called them "melee physical attacks" instead.
"Melee Combat"
"Ranged Combat"
"Melee Spell"
"Ranged Spell"
Same brackets, slightly wonkier wording on the physical strikes, but given that many 'weapon' attacks do not involve a physical component, using 'combat' instead would potentially induce less confusion. I do understand the irritation over unarmed attacks being "melee attacks" but not "melee weapons". I've seen better ways of handling it in other game systems (mostly by stating that enhanced unarmed strikes count as 'natural weapons'), but 5e's overwhelming, psychotic-obsession need to oversimplify everything strikes again.
Please do not contact or message me.
I agree with your feelings about the “overwhelming, psychotic-obsession need to oversimplify everything”
As a note, I would personally also recommend a change to “Ranged Magic Attack” and “Melee Magic Attack” as those would also avoid confusion and allow for “Magic Attacks” that are not “Spells” (such as Psionics maybe 🤞)
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The unarmed fighting style seems like it could possibly make the awful battlerager fun to play.