Good catch, and all the more reason to split the feat into two feats that are definitive in what they offer.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, nothing wrong with a druid or ranger taking the Beast Speech Invocation. Mask of Many Faces is just a flat out awesome ability - being able to cast Disguise Self at will is amazing. Even if the amount you can take is small, its immediately useful, imho.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
Uninspired? Maybe. But I don't see what's boring about metamagic in the hands of casters that don't normally have it, or squishy casters that can't normally use shields being able to use them.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? No. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oh hell no, I'm of the position that the core Sorcerer class progression is absolutely abhorrent as is. Sorc needs some major bonuses, full stop.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? **** that. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
I think you answered your own question. If metamagic is the only thing you value in a sorcerer, then I think you're better off playing a wizard and taking this feat.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? **** that. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
I think you answered your own question. If metamagic is the only thing you value in a sorcerer, then I think you're better off playing a wizard and taking this feat.
If making class options “meaningless” is what it takes to make mechanical character design something other than your spell list in 5e, then i am all for it
I also think people are forgetting at a normal table, feats are the first options to get benched. If you a dm and you have a wizard who wants to take MM Initiate just because, you have more than a right to say no unless there is actually some reason that character would have access to sorcery
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? **** that. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
I think you answered your own question. If metamagic is the only thing you value in a sorcerer, then I think you're better off playing a wizard and taking this feat.
As intended, it was of course rhetorical! XD
That's absolutely correct, but only valid if such a move doesn't completely dick over actual Sorcerers (again), which is exactly what Metamagic as a feat does. It just shits on Sorcerer from every angle.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Base Ranger kind of just lacks a core mechanic to begin with. Any character with Outlander gets most of the roleplaying benefits, and any other melee class just has more going on. I'd say this only makes sense in a world where revised ranger gives them more to have for themselves.
I'm usually open to most UA stuff but the metamagic feat won't be allowed at my table. The Sorcerer class needs a major overhaul. The feat won't fix it and I hate that WoTC wants to give it to everyone when it is the defining feature of the class. I'll just keep home brewing solutions for my sorcerer players until WoTC deigns to actually fix it.
In my opinion a class being bad to begin with is not reason enough to prevent creating well put together and extremely flavorful options that characters can take.
In my opinion a class being bad to begin with is not reason enough to prevent creating well put together and extremely flavorful options that characters can take.
This ^ ^ ^ ^
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
In my opinion a class being bad to begin with is not reason enough to prevent creating well put together and extremely flavorful options that characters can take.
fair enough but design time should be spent on fixing said class first.
I'm super happy with Poisoner. My Alchemist is VERY thankful for it. Lets me add some good spice to them. Ray of Sick isn't bad if it works on them, and the poisoned condition is great, if it works on them.
I got green flame blade from spell sniper--which i'm being allowed to use my Alch Tool spell focus with, so. My alchemist can now. Fire strike at range, Dagger+Poison+GFB in melee. As well as toss a Con Save Poison Spray when I need a save one. Its a nice little tool box.
I do hope they alter poisoner though, still hate tht it costs gold as a feat.. thats just weird. Make it short or long rest... and like most poison that isn't basic poison, make it 1/2 on a failed save.
though what I really want is for it to be a completely unique poison. Just does poison damage on hit, with a save for the condition. But the damage as a normal damage rider, and able to crit and all the other interactions. It would be a thoroughly unique poison and really wonderful niche and flair.
though if i'm doing a wish list, then i'm hoping for a Artificer reprint and Alchemist rework in the next 'main universe setting' book. But this feat really lets me be a true alchemist in fluff. Poisons, alch fire, acids, explosive vials, elixirs of healing.
And you don't see it as a problem that a feature that waits 3 levels to be unlocked, and only gives you additional options at few levels, is the defining feature of the class?
Um... that was the entire point of the statement. Not sure how that was confusing...
Also, as others have pointed out, even Sorcerers benefit from this feat by getting 2 extra points and additional metamagic which they can actually replace.
Yes. It's so effective, that almost every single Sorcerer will take it. It means the base class is so weak that literally anything that enhances it is mandatory (which is bad design).
And you don't see it as a problem that a feature that waits 3 levels to be unlocked, and only gives you additional options at few levels, is the defining feature of the class?
Um... that was the entire point of the statement. Not sure how that was confusing...
The entire point of the statement I was saying that in response to was that the Metamagic Adept feat takes the one thing that keeps Sorcerers from being bad Wizards and gives it to other casting classes, including the Wizard, which craps on the Sorcerer as a result, thus making this feat bad news for those who care about the class. My question that you are quoting was to clarify their position on what is the actual issue here. And they did respond to me.
Does giving access to 2 points of metamagic a day really crap on the Sorc class? 2 points without all the ways the sorc has to manipulate the number of points, the slots, and the combos they can pull off?
And you don't see it as a problem that a feature that waits 3 levels to be unlocked, and only gives you additional options at few levels, is the defining feature of the class?
Um... that was the entire point of the statement. Not sure how that was confusing...
The entire point of the statement I was saying that in response to was that the Metamagic Adept feat takes the one thing that keeps Sorcerers from being bad Wizards and gives it to other casting classes, including the Wizard, which craps on the Sorcerer as a result, thus making this feat bad news for those who care about the class. My question that you are quoting was to clarify their position on what is the actual issue here. And they did respond to me.
Does giving access to 2 points of metamagic a day really crap on the Sorc class? 2 points without all the ways the sorc has to manipulate the number of points, the slots, and the combos they can pull off?
Anyone with this feat has the same amount of metamagic options as a sorcerer under 12th level, and they can change it on a long rest. The combos are in the feats favour...
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
Good catch, and all the more reason to split the feat into two feats that are definitive in what they offer.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Well, nothing wrong with a druid or ranger taking the Beast Speech Invocation. Mask of Many Faces is just a flat out awesome ability - being able to cast Disguise Self at will is amazing. Even if the amount you can take is small, its immediately useful, imho.
I'm just really sick of the current 5e design philosophy becoming "let's just make class choices as close to meaningless as possible".
Give us new options that are meaningfully distinct from "here, have the thing that made other classes different". It's uninspired, and boring AF.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again as many times as needed: if I wanted to play a TTRPG system that lets players mix & match what they want out of everything available, I'd play a White Wolf game, not Dungeons & Dragons.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Tell that to anyone playing a Sorcerer. Metamagic is the only thing that really differentiates them as a class. They are otherwise a very underpowered Wizard. Now the Wizard can just take a feat and get Metamagic? No. I don't care if it's only 2 Sorcery Points.
What would have required a minimum 3 levels in Sorcerer can now be picked up by anyone for 1 feat. 2 free uses of Twinned Spell on an attack cantrip per day? Why would I bother taking levels in Sorc if I can get basically everything anyone wants from the class for a single feat? It's dumb.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Oh hell no, I'm of the position that the core Sorcerer class progression is absolutely abhorrent as is. Sorc needs some major bonuses, full stop.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I think you answered your own question. If metamagic is the only thing you value in a sorcerer, then I think you're better off playing a wizard and taking this feat.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
^^^This all day long
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
If making class options “meaningless” is what it takes to make mechanical character design something other than your spell list in 5e, then i am all for it
I also think people are forgetting at a normal table, feats are the first options to get benched. If you a dm and you have a wizard who wants to take MM Initiate just because, you have more than a right to say no unless there is actually some reason that character would have access to sorcery
As intended, it was of course rhetorical! XD
That's absolutely correct, but only valid if such a move doesn't completely dick over actual Sorcerers (again), which is exactly what Metamagic as a feat does. It just shits on Sorcerer from every angle.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I understand what you are saying. I just see things differently.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Base Ranger kind of just lacks a core mechanic to begin with. Any character with Outlander gets most of the roleplaying benefits, and any other melee class just has more going on. I'd say this only makes sense in a world where revised ranger gives them more to have for themselves.
I'm usually open to most UA stuff but the metamagic feat won't be allowed at my table. The Sorcerer class needs a major overhaul. The feat won't fix it and I hate that WoTC wants to give it to everyone when it is the defining feature of the class. I'll just keep home brewing solutions for my sorcerer players until WoTC deigns to actually fix it.
In my opinion a class being bad to begin with is not reason enough to prevent creating well put together and extremely flavorful options that characters can take.
This ^ ^ ^ ^
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
fair enough but design time should be spent on fixing said class first.
I'm super happy with Poisoner. My Alchemist is VERY thankful for it. Lets me add some good spice to them. Ray of Sick isn't bad if it works on them, and the poisoned condition is great, if it works on them.
I got green flame blade from spell sniper--which i'm being allowed to use my Alch Tool spell focus with, so. My alchemist can now. Fire strike at range, Dagger+Poison+GFB in melee. As well as toss a Con Save Poison Spray when I need a save one. Its a nice little tool box.
I do hope they alter poisoner though, still hate tht it costs gold as a feat.. thats just weird. Make it short or long rest... and like most poison that isn't basic poison, make it 1/2 on a failed save.
though what I really want is for it to be a completely unique poison. Just does poison damage on hit, with a save for the condition. But the damage as a normal damage rider, and able to crit and all the other interactions. It would be a thoroughly unique poison and really wonderful niche and flair.
though if i'm doing a wish list, then i'm hoping for a Artificer reprint and Alchemist rework in the next 'main universe setting' book.
But this feat really lets me be a true alchemist in fluff. Poisons, alch fire, acids, explosive vials, elixirs of healing.
Um... that was the entire point of the statement. Not sure how that was confusing...
Yes. It's so effective, that almost every single Sorcerer will take it. It means the base class is so weak that literally anything that enhances it is mandatory (which is bad design).
Does giving access to 2 points of metamagic a day really crap on the Sorc class? 2 points without all the ways the sorc has to manipulate the number of points, the slots, and the combos they can pull off?
Anyone with this feat has the same amount of metamagic options as a sorcerer under 12th level, and they can change it on a long rest. The combos are in the feats favour...
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
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