I used to DM a group of players who liked to heavily optimize their characters (and the group as a whole) to take as little and deal as much damage as possible (seriously, these guys were crazy). It got to the point that I was routinely throwing encounters that would be considered "deadly" to for a group their level. Unfortunately some of the members of that group moved away at around 6th level, so I never got to see how it carried on to later levels. So my question is: what are the most optimizable class/multiclass options for damage output and survivability at levels 5-6? Is the answer different at higher levels? I'm playing D&D 5e.
Routinely using 'deadly' encounters is normal, a fresh party is unlikely to lose against less than twice the deadly encounter budget. On your question, it depends on the type of threat you're dealing with and the number of encounters per day, but generally the most notable for durability are bear totem barbarian and moon druid, damage vs multiple foes favors evocation wizard, single target damage favors paladin or fighter.
any barbarian, especially once they hit level 11 (relentless rage) are pretty durable. zealot barbarian's subclass capstone at level 14 is nice:
"While you’re raging, having 0 hit points doesn’t knock you unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don’t die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points."
i'm pretty sure sage advice has ruled you can continue your rage with a bonus action, which means you could potentially have up to 5 minutes of just "nope" even after you fail death saves, unless something single shots you for your max HP in a single hit once you're at 0 HP. just heal right before your rage ends and ta-da. obviously insta-death things are an issue (disintegrate, vorpal blade, etc), and so is anything that breaks your rage, but as far as physical damage....good luck.
way of the kensei monk with a musket from the DMG or a hand mortar from critical roll
variant human with the sharpshooter feat.
effectively giving a maximum of 20+ damage with one shot of your pistol, not counting unarmed strikes and flurry of blows.
an then, with the monk ability score increase at level 4, you can choose the 'tough' feat in the player's handbook that gives you more hp, or 'savage attacker' increasing damage. and all the deflect missiles, step of the wind, and other monk abilities, you get some pretty hardcore survival rate.
way of the kensei monk with a musket from the DMG or a hand mortar from critical roll
variant human with the sharpshooter feat.
effectively giving a maximum of 20+ damage with one shot of your pistol, not counting unarmed strikes and flurry of blows.
an then, with the monk ability score increase at level 4, you can choose the 'tough' feat in the player's handbook that gives you more hp, or 'savage attacker' increasing damage. and all the deflect missiles, step of the wind, and other monk abilities, you get some pretty hardcore survival rate.
im playing this right now and it is SUPER broken.
Do you have this character public on this site? I'd love to check it out
any barbarian, especially once they hit level 11 (relentless rage) are pretty durable. zealot barbarian's subclass capstone at level 14 is nice:
"While you’re raging, having 0 hit points doesn’t knock you unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don’t die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points."
i'm pretty sure sage advice has ruled you can continue your rage with a bonus action, which means you could potentially have up to 5 minutes of just "nope" even after you fail death saves, unless something single shots you for your max HP in a single hit once you're at 0 HP. just heal right before your rage ends and ta-da. obviously insta-death things are an issue (disintegrate, vorpal blade, etc), and so is anything that breaks your rage, but as far as physical damage....good luck.
You do the cheese where you never sleep, instead use those 8 hours of a long rest to perform 8 short rests, constantly converting your pact slots into sorcerer points, and using those points to create other slots instead. Imagine all the slots!
With hexblade's spells, you can tank with armor of agathys, shield, mirror image, and be a decent blaster with eldritch blast+agonizing blast, and with divine soul sorcerer, you can heal with healing word. With all your cantrips, you can become a utility machine. With all that charisma, and the right proficiencies, you become the face of the party. You can nearly do it all, and yes, this is assuming a 3/3 split at lvl 6 like the OP asked for.
You do the cheese where you never sleep, instead use those 8 hours of a long rest to perform 8 short rests, ...
Sentry’s Rest
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping.
Eh, not a problem. Just pick up pact of the tome, aspect of the moon. ez. changes nothing about the chassis in the build.
Even then, there's nothing about the font of magic that says point conversion must be accompanied by motion, so nothing in the rules clashes one feature with another. But for the DM who insists otherwise, aspect of the moon exists.
You do the cheese where you never sleep, instead use those 8 hours of a long rest to perform 8 short rests, ...
Sentry’s Rest
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping.
Eh, not a problem. Just pick up pact of the tome, aspect of the moon. ez. changes nothing about the chassis in the build.
Even then, there's nothing about the font of magic that says point conversion must be accompanied by motion, so nothing in the rules clashes one feature with another. But for the DM who insists otherwise, aspect of the moon exists.
It's requires a bonus action, which seems like it'd be precluded by being inactive.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
You do the cheese where you never sleep, instead use those 8 hours of a long rest to perform 8 short rests, ...
Sentry’s Rest
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping.
Eh, not a problem. Just pick up pact of the tome, aspect of the moon. ez. changes nothing about the chassis in the build.
Even then, there's nothing about the font of magic that says point conversion must be accompanied by motion, so nothing in the rules clashes one feature with another. But for the DM who insists otherwise, aspect of the moon exists.
It's requires a bonus action, which seems like it'd be precluded by being inactive.
Either way, aspect of the moon. Now I can pick up v human for an extra feat. Probably warcaster to use shields too! Gee, thanks, you just helped me make the build even more OP!
You do the cheese where you never sleep, instead use those 8 hours of a long rest to perform 8 short rests, ...
Sentry’s Rest
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping.
Eh, not a problem. Just pick up pact of the tome, aspect of the moon. ez. changes nothing about the chassis in the build.
Even then, there's nothing about the font of magic that says point conversion must be accompanied by motion, so nothing in the rules clashes one feature with another. But for the DM who insists otherwise, aspect of the moon exists.
It's requires a bonus action, which seems like it'd be precluded by being inactive.
Either way, aspect of the moon. Now I can pick up v human for an extra feat. Probably warcaster to use shields too! Gee, thanks, you just helped me make the build even more OP!
His tweets are not considered valid rulings, and there's nothing about that sort of thing in the sage advice compendium either. It is merely his opinion. So, if one were to present this in organized play were RAW is king, not much you can argue against it other than saying "Well, I am the DM and disallow it anyways," but even that can be used on any build or idea, so it doesn't really speak for or against any build's validity.
I used to DM a group of players who liked to heavily optimize their characters (and the group as a whole) to take as little and deal as much damage as possible (seriously, these guys were crazy). It got to the point that I was routinely throwing encounters that would be considered "deadly" to for a group their level. Unfortunately some of the members of that group moved away at around 6th level, so I never got to see how it carried on to later levels. So my question is: what are the most optimizable class/multiclass options for damage output and survivability at levels 5-6? Is the answer different at higher levels? I'm playing D&D 5e.
Routinely using 'deadly' encounters is normal, a fresh party is unlikely to lose against less than twice the deadly encounter budget. On your question, it depends on the type of threat you're dealing with and the number of encounters per day, but generally the most notable for durability are bear totem barbarian and moon druid, damage vs multiple foes favors evocation wizard, single target damage favors paladin or fighter.
Best survival I can suggest at level 5:
Race: Kalashtar Bear totem Barb/Moon Druid:
Level 3 Bear Totem Barb
Level 2 Moon Druid
Rage as a bonus action
Shift into a Dire Wolf as an action
You have 37 HP and resistance to all damage (Thanks to Kalashtar Psychic resistance) so you effectively have 74 HP.
That is just your Wild Shape HP though...they would have to burn through all 51 of your PC HP with resistance making that 102 HP in your PC form.
All in All they would need to drop 176 HP to burn through one wild shape....and you have 2 per short rest.
The Powergamer (Munchkin subclass) is pretty OP to begin with, and it gets a bit ridiculous with just a few levels of Weenie (Rules Lawyer).
Oh, did you mean character class and not player class?
any barbarian, especially once they hit level 11 (relentless rage) are pretty durable. zealot barbarian's subclass capstone at level 14 is nice:
"While you’re raging, having 0 hit points doesn’t knock you unconscious. You still must make death saving throws, and you suffer the normal effects of taking damage while at 0 hit points. However, if you would die due to failing death saving throws, you don’t die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points."
i'm pretty sure sage advice has ruled you can continue your rage with a bonus action, which means you could potentially have up to 5 minutes of just "nope" even after you fail death saves, unless something single shots you for your max HP in a single hit once you're at 0 HP. just heal right before your rage ends and ta-da. obviously insta-death things are an issue (disintegrate, vorpal blade, etc), and so is anything that breaks your rage, but as far as physical damage....good luck.
way of the kensei monk with a musket from the DMG or a hand mortar from critical roll
variant human with the sharpshooter feat.
effectively giving a maximum of 20+ damage with one shot of your pistol, not counting unarmed strikes and flurry of blows.
an then, with the monk ability score increase at level 4, you can choose the 'tough' feat in the player's handbook that gives you more hp, or 'savage attacker' increasing damage. and all the deflect missiles, step of the wind, and other monk abilities, you get some pretty hardcore survival rate.
im playing this right now and it is SUPER broken.
Do you have this character public on this site? I'd love to check it out
That is hilariously broken
yeah.. let me see if i can share it with you.
A warforged divine soul sorcerer and hexblade.
You do the cheese where you never sleep, instead use those 8 hours of a long rest to perform 8 short rests, constantly converting your pact slots into sorcerer points, and using those points to create other slots instead. Imagine all the slots!
With hexblade's spells, you can tank with armor of agathys, shield, mirror image, and be a decent blaster with eldritch blast+agonizing blast, and with divine soul sorcerer, you can heal with healing word. With all your cantrips, you can become a utility machine. With all that charisma, and the right proficiencies, you become the face of the party. You can nearly do it all, and yes, this is assuming a 3/3 split at lvl 6 like the OP asked for.
Sentry’s Rest
When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I think the better question is what are DM options to stop this stuff in its tracks. Typically spells that require CHA or Int rolls are showstoppers.
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ModeratorThat would be a better conversation for a separate thread.
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Eh, not a problem. Just pick up pact of the tome, aspect of the moon. ez. changes nothing about the chassis in the build.
Even then, there's nothing about the font of magic that says point conversion must be accompanied by motion, so nothing in the rules clashes one feature with another. But for the DM who insists otherwise, aspect of the moon exists.
It's requires a bonus action, which seems like it'd be precluded by being inactive.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
Either way, aspect of the moon. Now I can pick up v human for an extra feat. Probably warcaster to use shields too! Gee, thanks, you just helped me make the build even more OP!
While we're on the subject: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/938568519385456641. There are still limitations, and DMs can always just say no.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
His tweets are not considered valid rulings, and there's nothing about that sort of thing in the sage advice compendium either. It is merely his opinion. So, if one were to present this in organized play were RAW is king, not much you can argue against it other than saying "Well, I am the DM and disallow it anyways," but even that can be used on any build or idea, so it doesn't really speak for or against any build's validity.
https://ddb.ac/characters/50962469/SADeI4
Moon Druid/Bear Totem
You Rage as a BA and wildshape into an earth elemental as an action.
You have resistance to all damage minus Thunder which you take normally (Form has Thunder Vulnerability but Barb has resistance)
So for anything minus thunder you would have to pound through 126 HP with resistance so effectively 252 HP in the wild shape form.
Then you would have to pound through 177 hp in the PC form or effective 354 HP.
To get through both you would have to hit them for 606 HP worth of damage....or about 60 HP more than a Red Dragon.
You are not putting out huge damage but man can you absorb it.