This is a character concept I am working on of a tanky shield smashing character. The thing is I have ran into a snag with an idea and want to know if it is possible. Considering tavern brawler allows you to use anything on hand as a weapon, would a magical shield be considered a magical weapon?
I am building a hand to hand person but there was no way I was wanting to leave the extra defense out of the working. Maybe mix in a level of fighter for the unarmed fighting style and grappling benefits of an extra 1d4 damage a turn as I beat someone to death with a shield in defensive rage.
@jeff_kiadar A magic shield +1 used like a improvised weapon will add the +1 to the attack and damage rolls?
@JeremyECrawford A +1 shield gives a bonus to AC. The bonus has no effect on an improvised attack roll you make with the shield.
@drakus1111 would it still count as Magical for Resistance/Immunity to non-magical B/P/S attacks?
@JeremyECrawford A magic shield is not a magic weapon, unless its text says otherwise.
Personally I disagree with Crawford that improvised weapons are not weapons https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons (I would argue the Improvised Weapon text make them an Weapon with the type Improvised at my table). That said there are very few places where i think that it being a "Weapon" in mechanical terms matters (things like sneak attack and smite) .
That said you still make a melee weapon attack even if you aren't attacking with a weapon(for example a monks unarmed strike is not considered a weapon but they still make melee weapon attacks) so i feel that is irrelevant to the question of overcoming resistance to magical damage
They are both magical items whose only magical property is that they produce light, i don't see how one would bypass damage reduction from a Banshee (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/banshee) for example and the other wouldn't.
The attack isn't suddenly less magical because one is a sword and one is a lantern (just less effective based on the damage dice)
In my mind RAW: it depends on how you read the Improvised Weapon rules (does that text make your improvised weapon a weapon) .
RAI: Jeremy Crawford makes it clear that the devs did not intend a magical item that is not written as a weapon to count as a weapon using the Improvised weapon rules (and apparently improvised weapons are not eligible to overcome damage resistance)
Rules at my table: Is an improvised weapon a weapon? I read the Improvised Weapon rules to say yes, i'm not super attached to that ruling. Do improvised Weapon attacks with magic items overcome resistance to non magical damage, Absolutely yes, if a sword glowing is enough to bypass resistance I'll let my players bash a ghost with a lamp to do the same (especially with the feat investment to make the attack with proficiency)
The Devs discussed weapons and improvised weaponry in a DragonTalk Podcast and Twitter clarified that when the rules refer to weapons, they intend it to mean weapons from the Weapon Table (07:00)
@DaveWil33 I just can't. Seriously? I mean. Dammit. If they could pin down exactly what does and does not count as a weapon for features that require actual weapons I'd probably dance a jig.
@JeremyECrawford I'll boil it down for you. When we wrote the "Player's Handbook," we meant the weapons on the weapon table when we wrote "weapon," unless we said otherwise. But you break nothing in the game if you let natural weapons go along for the ride.
The Devs discussed weapons and improvised weaponry in a DragonTalk Podcast and Twitter clarified that when the rules refer to weapons, they intend it to mean weapons from the Weapon Table (07:00)
@DaveWil33 I just can't. Seriously? I mean. Dammit. If they could pin down exactly what does and does not count as a weapon for features that require actual weapons I'd probably dance a jig.
@JeremyECrawford I'll boil it down for you. When we wrote the "Player's Handbook," we meant the weapons on the weapon table when we wrote "weapon," unless we said otherwise. But you break nothing in the game if you let natural weapons go along for the ride.
That's fair, but i still don't like the Rules as Intended ;)
So for the OP, Ask your DM If you play the character: Will a magic shield bypass damage resistance/immunity in their game? Not sure if you will have any abilities like smite that actually require a weapon but check how they will rule on those as well if there are any in your build.
As for overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks, RAW a magic shield is a magic item and could still work as per Monster Manual errata.
Vulnerabilities, Resistances, and Immunities: Particular creatures are even resistant or immune to damage from nonmagical attacks (a magical attack is an attack delivered by a spell, a magic item, or another magical source).
One thing i don't know is if Jeremy Crawford's tweet in 2016 predates the Monster Manual Errata of 2016 that changed the entry for Vulnerabilities, Resistances and Immunities. Could have been originally right if it was made before actual rules chang
EDIT Found it. Errata come before, but reading closely at his tweet, he never really answers the questions simply stating that a magic shield is not a magic weapon (which you don't actually need as per Errata)
This is definitely "talk to your DM" territory. I know plenty of DMs, including myself, that would rule that a magic item whose magic is not bent to the specific purpose of harming a foe cannot be used to bypass nonmagical damage resistance. Nonmagical damage resistance is already far too easy to get around; slapping someone with your immovable rod or wrapping your nekkid monkey paw in your Cloak of Protection before punching somebody isn't gonna cut it. The magic needs to do the damage, or at the least actively aid in doing the damage, or it becomes similar to "because I taped this picture of a fireplace to my warhammer, my warhammer now deals fire damage! See? it makes perfect sense!"
This is definitely "talk to your DM" territory. I know plenty of DMs, including myself, that would rule that a magic item whose magic is not bent to the specific purpose of harming a foe cannot be used to bypass nonmagical damage resistance. Nonmagical damage resistance is already far too easy to get around; slapping someone with your immovable rod or wrapping your nekkid monkey paw in your Cloak of Protection before punching somebody isn't gonna cut it. The magic needs to do the damage, or at the least actively aid in doing the damage, or it becomes similar to "because I taped this picture of a fireplace to my warhammer, my warhammer now deals fire damage! See? it makes perfect sense!"
I can see that as a reasonable house rule. My table it just has to be the magic item doing the damage (so no wrapping you cloak of protection around a hammer to get the hammers damage die
I'm curious as to what you think resistance to non-magical damage types actually represents
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@jeff_kiadar A magic shield +1 used like a improvised weapon will add the +1 to the attack and damage rolls?
@JeremyECrawford A +1 shield gives a bonus to AC. The bonus has no effect on an improvised attack roll you make with the shield.
@drakus1111 would it still count as Magical for Resistance/Immunity to non-magical B/P/S attacks?
@JeremyECrawford A magic shield is not a magic weapon, unless its text says otherwise.
It has been said many many times, Crawford is just a man, who has has own personal opinions on things like anyone else. His tweets are not game rules. If it isn’t in an officially published WoTC book or website then it doesn’t count.
If anyone would like proof that improvised weapons are a class unto themselves apart from weapons, check out this Sage Advice ruling:
When you use Extra Attack, do you have to use the same weapon for all the attacks?
Extra Attack imposes no limitation on what you use for the attacks. You can use regular weapons, improvised weapons, unarmed strikes, or a combination of these options for the attacks.
Improvised weapons are their own class of game object distinct from weapons. If something is referring to weapons, it is not referring to improvised weapons (it's referring to regular weapons)
Well glad I passed this question to the forum. Al sorts of reference areas to go from. I mean it doesn't negate the build if it doesn't. It was just something that came to mind making the character.
The premise of the character is the stereo typical did good for his town, has seen some stuff which led to having anger issues, and with the added dislike for normal weapons/magic. Hence the use of a shield or hands. If not whatever none weapon thing is around him. I blame my comic upbringing on this one.
I am just hoping no DM is to keen on sayin an improvised weapon isn't a strength based weapon.
I'm curious as to what you think resistance to non-magical damage types actually represents
Not sure I understand your question. It represents a creature that can't be damaged(or is resistant to damage) by a mundane source.
I clarified my thought process here using two magic items that only have the magical property of producing light.
"They are both magical items whose only magical property is that they produce light, i don't see how one would bypass damage reduction from a Banshee (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/banshee) for example and the other wouldn't."
Here is the quote from the Sage Advice Compendium related to resistance/immunity to non magical attacks that informed my example above.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#MagicItems The question "Do magic weapons give you a bonus to attack and damage rolls?" They state "A magic weapon gives you a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only if its description says it does. Every magic weapon can bypass resistances and immunities to damage from nonmagical attacks, but only certain magic weapons are more accurate and damaging than their nonmagical counterparts. "
Moontouch longsword attack would be 1d8+str damage from a magical source (confirmed bypass of resistance based on quoted text)
Everbright lantern attack (with tavernbrawler) would be 1d4+str damage from a magical source (I see no reason this would be different than any weapon for bypassing resistance)
The problem with making every magic item a magic weapon, is that every tree limb with Light or some other cantrip cast on it becomes a magic weapon able to penetrate resistance .
It isn’t a common sense thing, it’s a game balance thing.
I'm curious as to what you think resistance to non-magical damage types actually represents
Not sure I understand your question. It represents a creature that can't be damaged(or is resistant to damage) by a mundane source.
What I mean is: do you think such creatures are really tough but have, I dunno, a magic allergy which makes their hide softer? Or do you think maybe it's a mechanic that's intended to represent creatures that require extraordinary means to take down?
Now, if you see no difference between an actual magic sword -- even if it doesn't have a bonus to hit or do damage or otherwise have combat-oriented magic to it -- and a magic lantern used as an improved weapon, then what about if you cast light on a normal weapon? Would you rule it also bypasses resistance to non-magical attacks?
For that matter, let's back-track to that everbright lantern. The description makes it clear the magical part isn't the lantern casing, it's the shard inside it. So why would bonking something with the metal part of the lantern count as a "magical attack"?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Even a moon-touched sword or staff of adornment counts as a “magic weapon,” and therefore attacks with them count as “magic attacks” and damage from one of them counts as “damage from a magic source.” RAW any staff, magic or otherwise also automatically counts as a quarterstaff.
In a similar fashion I also houserule that any rod automatically counts as a mace or club too, depending on the PC’s proficiencies or the player’s preferences. I don’t personally mind if crunking somthin’ on the dome with a rod of the pact keeper or whatever and treating it as a magic club for damage resistance/immunity purposes. It’s D&D, that seems like fun D&D to me. But that is my houserule, and not RAW.
However, I would not allow lanterns or belts and such from counting as magical sources of damage unless it specifically says so.
As others have said, talk to your DM. If they are okay with Homebrew, I have published a couple of feats specifically for using shields as weapons. If the DM approves, one of those might suit your character.
This is a character concept I am working on of a tanky shield smashing character. The thing is I have ran into a snag with an idea and want to know if it is possible. Considering tavern brawler allows you to use anything on hand as a weapon, would a magical shield be considered a magical weapon?
I am building a hand to hand person but there was no way I was wanting to leave the extra defense out of the working. Maybe mix in a level of fighter for the unarmed fighting style and grappling benefits of an extra 1d4 damage a turn as I beat someone to death with a shield in defensive rage.
Using anything as a weapon doesn't make it a weapon in itself, so a shield is not a weapon, magical or not.
It was also confirmed by a Dev on Twitter; https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/774039028173713408?s=20
her's a build for a similar idea i had:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/story-lore/108405-rob76s-unused-character-idea-1-pavise-hightower
Personally I disagree with Crawford that improvised weapons are not weapons https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/equipment#ImprovisedWeapons (I would argue the Improvised Weapon text make them an Weapon with the type Improvised at my table). That said there are very few places where i think that it being a "Weapon" in mechanical terms matters (things like sneak attack and smite) .
That said you still make a melee weapon attack even if you aren't attacking with a weapon(for example a monks unarmed strike is not considered a weapon but they still make melee weapon attacks) so i feel that is irrelevant to the question of overcoming resistance to magical damage
I see no difference between a https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/moon-touched-sword and an improvised weapon that is a magical item https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/everbright-lantern for the purpose of overcoming damage resistance to "Bludgeoning, Piercing, and Slashing from Nonmagical Attacks"
They are both magical items whose only magical property is that they produce light, i don't see how one would bypass damage reduction from a Banshee (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/banshee) for example and the other wouldn't.
The attack isn't suddenly less magical because one is a sword and one is a lantern (just less effective based on the damage dice)
In my mind RAW: it depends on how you read the Improvised Weapon rules (does that text make your improvised weapon a weapon) .
RAI: Jeremy Crawford makes it clear that the devs did not intend a magical item that is not written as a weapon to count as a weapon using the Improvised weapon rules (and apparently improvised weapons are not eligible to overcome damage resistance)
Rules at my table: Is an improvised weapon a weapon? I read the Improvised Weapon rules to say yes, i'm not super attached to that ruling. Do improvised Weapon attacks with magic items overcome resistance to non magical damage, Absolutely yes, if a sword glowing is enough to bypass resistance I'll let my players bash a ghost with a lamp to do the same (especially with the feat investment to make the attack with proficiency)
The Devs discussed weapons and improvised weaponry in a DragonTalk Podcast and Twitter clarified that when the rules refer to weapons, they intend it to mean weapons from the Weapon Table (07:00)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKLx-BVnsmo
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/996549348140826624?s=20
That's fair, but i still don't like the Rules as Intended ;)
So for the OP, Ask your DM If you play the character: Will a magic shield bypass damage resistance/immunity in their game? Not sure if you will have any abilities like smite that actually require a weapon but check how they will rule on those as well if there are any in your build.
on a related tangent, if you take the unarmed fighting style it only upgrades your unarmed attacks to a d6 (tavern brawler already gives you a d4) and you will still need a magic item to make your unarmed attacks magical (https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/eldritch-claw-tattoo , https://www.dndbeyond.com/magic-items/insignia-of-claws will do this)
As for overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks, RAW a magic shield is a magic item and could still work as per Monster Manual errata.
One thing i don't know is if Jeremy Crawford's tweet in 2016 predates the Monster Manual Errata of 2016 that changed the entry for Vulnerabilities, Resistances and Immunities. Could have been originally right if it was made before actual rules chang
EDIT Found it. Errata come before, but reading closely at his tweet, he never really answers the questions simply stating that a magic shield is not a magic weapon (which you don't actually need as per Errata)
Monster Manual Errata is 12/21/2015 https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/errata-monster-manual-and-dungeon-master’s-guide
Tweet is 08/09/2016 https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/774039028173713408?s=20
This is definitely "talk to your DM" territory. I know plenty of DMs, including myself, that would rule that a magic item whose magic is not bent to the specific purpose of harming a foe cannot be used to bypass nonmagical damage resistance. Nonmagical damage resistance is already far too easy to get around; slapping someone with your immovable rod or wrapping your nekkid monkey paw in your Cloak of Protection before punching somebody isn't gonna cut it. The magic needs to do the damage, or at the least actively aid in doing the damage, or it becomes similar to "because I taped this picture of a fireplace to my warhammer, my warhammer now deals fire damage! See? it makes perfect sense!"
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I can see that as a reasonable house rule. My table it just has to be the magic item doing the damage (so no wrapping you cloak of protection around a hammer to get the hammers damage die
I'm curious as to what you think resistance to non-magical damage types actually represents
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It has been said many many times, Crawford is just a man, who has has own personal opinions on things like anyone else. His tweets are not game rules. If it isn’t in an officially published WoTC book or website then it doesn’t count.
it's not just his tweet, he also stated it in a DragonTalk podcast. But if you want citation in the rulebook supporting that, there it is
If anyone would like proof that improvised weapons are a class unto themselves apart from weapons, check out this Sage Advice ruling:
Improvised weapons are their own class of game object distinct from weapons. If something is referring to weapons, it is not referring to improvised weapons (it's referring to regular weapons)
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Well glad I passed this question to the forum. Al sorts of reference areas to go from. I mean it doesn't negate the build if it doesn't. It was just something that came to mind making the character.
The premise of the character is the stereo typical did good for his town, has seen some stuff which led to having anger issues, and with the added dislike for normal weapons/magic. Hence the use of a shield or hands. If not whatever none weapon thing is around him. I blame my comic upbringing on this one.
I am just hoping no DM is to keen on sayin an improvised weapon isn't a strength based weapon.
Not sure I understand your question. It represents a creature that can't be damaged(or is resistant to damage) by a mundane source.
I clarified my thought process here using two magic items that only have the magical property of producing light.
"They are both magical items whose only magical property is that they produce light, i don't see how one would bypass damage reduction from a Banshee (https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/banshee) for example and the other wouldn't."
Here is the quote from the Sage Advice Compendium related to resistance/immunity to non magical attacks that informed my example above.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/sac/sage-advice-compendium#MagicItems The question "Do magic weapons give you a bonus to attack and damage rolls?" They state "A magic weapon gives you a bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls only if its description says it does. Every magic weapon can bypass resistances and immunities to damage from nonmagical attacks, but only certain magic weapons are more accurate and damaging than their nonmagical counterparts. "
Moontouch longsword attack would be 1d8+str damage from a magical source (confirmed bypass of resistance based on quoted text)
Everbright lantern attack (with tavernbrawler) would be 1d4+str damage from a magical source (I see no reason this would be different than any weapon for bypassing resistance)
The problem with making every magic item a magic weapon, is that every tree limb with Light or some other cantrip cast on it becomes a magic weapon able to penetrate resistance .
It isn’t a common sense thing, it’s a game balance thing.
And if a Player is wearing a fist full of magic rings and uses unarmed strikes?
What I mean is: do you think such creatures are really tough but have, I dunno, a magic allergy which makes their hide softer? Or do you think maybe it's a mechanic that's intended to represent creatures that require extraordinary means to take down?
Now, if you see no difference between an actual magic sword -- even if it doesn't have a bonus to hit or do damage or otherwise have combat-oriented magic to it -- and a magic lantern used as an improved weapon, then what about if you cast light on a normal weapon? Would you rule it also bypasses resistance to non-magical attacks?
For that matter, let's back-track to that everbright lantern. The description makes it clear the magical part isn't the lantern casing, it's the shard inside it. So why would bonking something with the metal part of the lantern count as a "magical attack"?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Even a moon-touched sword or staff of adornment counts as a “magic weapon,” and therefore attacks with them count as “magic attacks” and damage from one of them counts as “damage from a magic source.” RAW any staff, magic or otherwise also automatically counts as a quarterstaff.
In a similar fashion I also houserule that any rod automatically counts as a mace or club too, depending on the PC’s proficiencies or the player’s preferences. I don’t personally mind if crunking somthin’ on the dome with a rod of the pact keeper or whatever and treating it as a magic club for damage resistance/immunity purposes. It’s D&D, that seems like fun D&D to me. But that is my houserule, and not RAW.
However, I would not allow lanterns or belts and such from counting as magical sources of damage unless it specifically says so.
As others have said, talk to your DM. If they are okay with Homebrew, I have published a couple of feats specifically for using shields as weapons. If the DM approves, one of those might suit your character.
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