RAW, that is what the arms can do. Anything else is DM ruling/fiat. The rules do not say a kreen can use their sub-arms for somatic spell components, but they also do not say a kreen cannot use their sub-arms for somatic spell components. The argument can be made that if you're going to allow Mandible Clacking to count as vocal components, a sub-hand that can work well enough to wield a weapon can count as somatic components. It's a reasonable argument to make, but it's still going to come down to DM ruling. Some DMs will be lenient, others will not be.
As a DM I have ruled that “manipulate an object” is good enough to count for manipulating material spell components, and since it is RAW that the same hand that can manipulate material spell components can perform somatic components, I allow it.
RAW, that is what the arms can do. Anything else is DM ruling/fiat. The rules do not say a kreen can use their sub-arms for somatic spell components, but they also do not say a kreen cannot use their sub-arms for somatic spell components. The argument can be made that if you're going to allow Mandible Clacking to count as vocal components, a sub-hand that can work well enough to wield a weapon can count as somatic components. It's a reasonable argument to make, but it's still going to come down to DM ruling. Some DMs will be lenient, others will not be.
Excellent posts here.
In 5th, just like spells, things do what they say that can do and nothing else. That's how the balance works. Everything else is DM discretion.
I'd personally rule that they can't, just because that's how the intended balance works. A thrikreen eldritch knight basically being able to get their spells off instantly without feats is strong, same with Clerics with wearing heavy armor, having shields and weapons basically permanently drawn and now having free arms for somatics. War Caster would still have benefits on advantage on con saves/cantrip reaction attacks but the main benefit is the shield AC.
RAW, that is what the arms can do. Anything else is DM ruling/fiat. The rules do not say a kreen can use their sub-arms for somatic spell components, but they also do not say a kreen cannot use their sub-arms for somatic spell components. The argument can be made that if you're going to allow Mandible Clacking to count as vocal components, a sub-hand that can work well enough to wield a weapon can count as somatic components. It's a reasonable argument to make, but it's still going to come down to DM ruling. Some DMs will be lenient, others will not be.
Since the rules list what the arms CAN do, then anything not on the list can't be done.
I’d not let them. It’s already a lot that they can dual wield while holding a shield. Then they could cast, too. It’s too much. I know action economy will stop a lot, but they could attack while using a shield, bonus action attack with a little arm, and still have the other little arm free for reaction spells. Two weapons, a shield and the shield spell with no drawbacks seems a bit over the top. Granted, they’d be light weapons, but that still seems like getting all the options, and usually it’s about having to make choices.
Then you take the dual wielder feat and get to have one regular and one light weapon, with a shield, plus casting. And maybe the ac bonus from the feat, too, though that seems like it would need a ruling about if you have “a separate melee weapon in each hand.” Or would you then need to have four melee weapons since you have four hands? That’s one for the philosophers to ponder, I suppose.
I’d lean toward the overall, things only do what they say they do, and it doesn’t say you can use them for somatic spell components, so you can’t.
I guess you could have a shield, cast S component spells with other main hand and wield a light weapon (or two) in the secondary arms.
I think this is what makes Thri-Kreen a powerful race is basically you get a free +2 to AC by being able to use a shield (if proficient) while doing everything else the other races can do with your other three arms.
I guess you could have a shield, cast S component spells with other main hand and wield a light weapon (or two) in the secondary arms.
I think this is what makes Thri-Kreen a powerful race is basically you get a free +2 to AC by being able to use a shield (if proficient) while doing everything else the other races can do with your other three arms.
Oh, that’s a good point. You can already dual wield with a shield and cast. Oy.
Take a melee class with multi attack..., put one light weapon in each of it's secondary arms and heavy weapon in the other two.
Attack action - one attack with light weapon. One attack with heavy weapon. Bonus action attack with other light weapon.
I can't see what wrong with this by RAW. Or even worse,..sword and board with main hands for the same attacks and now can get ther AC buff of shield and even the dual wielding feat AC bonus.....t a bit unbalancing. With the feat a base +3 AC, hit multiple times with longsword and follow up with a short sword bonus action.
EDIT
And if your an EK or other caster.......YOU STILL have A hand 4th free for Somatic components........
RAW, that is what the arms can do. Anything else is DM ruling/fiat. The rules do not say a kreen can use their sub-arms for somatic spell components, but they also do not say a kreen cannot use their sub-arms for somatic spell components. The argument can be made that if you're going to allow Mandible Clacking to count as vocal components, a sub-hand that can work well enough to wield a weapon can count as somatic components. It's a reasonable argument to make, but it's still going to come down to DM ruling. Some DMs will be lenient, others will not be.
Since the rules list what the arms CAN do, then anything not on the list can't be done.
That is a problematic interpretation in that it does not actually say they can move at all if not touching something.
You can be pedantic if you like.
I was obviously referring to the mechanical rules that exist in D&D - the description specifies which mechanics of the D&D rules that the extra arms can interact with.
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Seems with 2nd pair of hands can cast somantic spells without needing the warcaster feat?
Works for me as a DM. I'd roll with it.
The thri-kreen sub-arm trait states exactly what the sub-arms can do:
RAW, that is what the arms can do. Anything else is DM ruling/fiat. The rules do not say a kreen can use their sub-arms for somatic spell components, but they also do not say a kreen cannot use their sub-arms for somatic spell components. The argument can be made that if you're going to allow Mandible Clacking to count as vocal components, a sub-hand that can work well enough to wield a weapon can count as somatic components. It's a reasonable argument to make, but it's still going to come down to DM ruling. Some DMs will be lenient, others will not be.
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As a DM I have ruled that “manipulate an object” is good enough to count for manipulating material spell components, and since it is RAW that the same hand that can manipulate material spell components can perform somatic components, I allow it.
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Excellent posts here.
In 5th, just like spells, things do what they say that can do and nothing else. That's how the balance works. Everything else is DM discretion.
I'd personally rule that they can't, just because that's how the intended balance works. A thrikreen eldritch knight basically being able to get their spells off instantly without feats is strong, same with Clerics with wearing heavy armor, having shields and weapons basically permanently drawn and now having free arms for somatics. War Caster would still have benefits on advantage on con saves/cantrip reaction attacks but the main benefit is the shield AC.
Since the rules list what the arms CAN do, then anything not on the list can't be done.
I’d not let them. It’s already a lot that they can dual wield while holding a shield. Then they could cast, too. It’s too much.
I know action economy will stop a lot, but they could attack while using a shield, bonus action attack with a little arm, and still have the other little arm free for reaction spells. Two weapons, a shield and the shield spell with no drawbacks seems a bit over the top. Granted, they’d be light weapons, but that still seems like getting all the options, and usually it’s about having to make choices.
Then you take the dual wielder feat and get to have one regular and one light weapon, with a shield, plus casting. And maybe the ac bonus from the feat, too, though that seems like it would need a ruling about if you have “a separate melee weapon in each hand.” Or would you then need to have four melee weapons since you have four hands? That’s one for the philosophers to ponder, I suppose.
I’d lean toward the overall, things only do what they say they do, and it doesn’t say you can use them for somatic spell components, so you can’t.
I guess you could have a shield, cast S component spells with other main hand and wield a light weapon (or two) in the secondary arms.
I think this is what makes Thri-Kreen a powerful race is basically you get a free +2 to AC by being able to use a shield (if proficient) while doing everything else the other races can do with your other three arms.
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Oh, that’s a good point. You can already dual wield with a shield and cast. Oy.
The hands have fingers and can move, so in most cases, you should be able to move your hands in a manner that somatic components require.
Take a melee class with multi attack..., put one light weapon in each of it's secondary arms and heavy weapon in the other two.
Attack action - one attack with light weapon. One attack with heavy weapon. Bonus action attack with other light weapon.
I can't see what wrong with this by RAW. Or even worse,..sword and board with main hands for the same attacks and now can get ther AC buff of shield and even the dual wielding feat AC bonus.....t a bit unbalancing. With the feat a base +3 AC, hit multiple times with longsword and follow up with a short sword bonus action.
EDIT
And if your an EK or other caster.......YOU STILL have A hand 4th free for Somatic components........
You can be pedantic if you like.
I was obviously referring to the mechanical rules that exist in D&D - the description specifies which mechanics of the D&D rules that the extra arms can interact with.