I'm feeling curious today. What problems have your groups had with various forms of harassment and/or discrimination? Besides the ****-y behavior I've heard about and witnessed a little of, I've heard of some people creating things like "Caitlyn Jenner parody" characters to belittle certain types of people, and the like. How did your groups respond to this type of behavior?
I'm also curious if any one else has gotten the feeling that Tieflings are somewhat based off of older 'Curse of Cain' beliefs. Has that ever come up in a game? How did people respond to it?
I've read about some fairly horrible situations over the years, but in the 33 years I've been playing DnD (and many other tabletop games) I've been lucky to rarely encounter any harassment or discrimination and those situations that have occurred have been dealt with easily by discussing viewpoints out-of-game.
I think it's about social groups - I've pretty much only ever roleplayed with good friends, so the social aspect is really important and people in the group aren't going to knowingly act in a way that is offensive to other members of the group.
The Tiefling thing is interesting - there are a whole host of odd monsters in DnD and I personally find it odd when I read about someone overlaying real-world belief systems such as the example you linked, because to me, "it's obvious it's just some fantasy monster" - my view may be a bit naive I guess, but I tend to take these things at face value, rather than choose to believe there's some deeper and more malignant thought in the design.
Art imitates life though. Just about everything in the game manuals is based off of a real life myth or system. There's myths out there that Cain married Lilith (first wife/lover of Adam and mother of all demons), so the "curse of cain" thing isn't that hard of a stretch.
True - so much of the classic DnD is abstractly based on European myths.
I know so many roleplay geeks though that I don't think thoughts run much deeper than:
*reads some ancient myth*
"Oh wow, that would make a cool DnD monster - it could have affinity with the night and life draining attacks"
I may be wrong and there may be a deeper bias I don't understand, but I think analysing such things to a deeper level can arrive at conclusions of thoughts that were never there in the first place. :)
There are some rules you need to lay down before starting your game (I normally write up a rules doc and link it for the group). Everyone is required to read it before session 0 and in session 0 if they show up and design characters they are agreeing upon those rules. Because this is the session to question the rules, and things presented. Everything is open to debate and the group agrees upon things. The major things I include are: No real life situations are brought into game, such as politics, religion or sexual orientation (or gender bashing), EVERYONE has the right to feel comfortable sitting at the table. Any player caught bullying or designing up things to insult another people or make them feel uncomfortable, gets a stern warning and then if they keep it up, ejected from the group. I know this sounds a bit extreme, but Ive had some wonky players over the 20 something years of running games, join my sessions.
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Ooo, share some stories. I've had nothing but pleasant players who've played nicely.
Bring on the cringe.
I don't have too many of my own. Like, the "parody" character that I mentioned above (and another player's obvious homophobic comments) are what made a friend not join a group near them. There was one guy in a short-run group that would make off-colored comments to some of the female players once in a while, though. Like, we'd captured and interrogated a Zhentarim member who was threatening to murder us all, and they make the 'joke' that they're going to kidnap a female character to make them their wife kinda' thing. It had really nothing to do with what had been discussed at the time, and was just really awkward. Since that player often skipped out on sessions and it was so short lived, we just ignored that one.
I've never experienced anything quite as bad as the OP link discusses, but I've definitely seen people being forced into gender stereotypes. The female cleric who has to be nice, and who is always forced to be in peril and to be rescued with no option to do anything else. It gets tired quickly and the worst part is, it turns people off a hobby that shouldn't be like that.
I've never witnessed harassment, but I have had some players want to be spotlight hogs. I usually just pointedly shift attention to other players.
Harassment of another player or bigot activity would be a good way to be disinvited from any game I was connected with. No racism, sexism, genderism, etc.
When you run with a group of PCs called the "Dukes of Depredation" you pick up stories. One guy collects pants...
I've never seen harassment among my own groups, but I've heard stories of people breaking up campaigns because some people want to be rude just for the sake of being rude.
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"Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about." - My Granddad
I have had one player who always plays a cleric, so that he can offer 'Lay on Hands' to the female characters, so I told him that his god didn't approve and it might stop working...
The other thing was going into bars and asking for a wench - so I had the female bartender feed him lots of ale and then take his money.
I don't have much in the way of personal run ins with it, but mostly I'm gaming with friends so boundaries and personalities are known. Smaller public games run within the local community are supposed to be using the X card system to put a bit of a stop to it. At a local convention level where the community tends to run the tabletop gaming track, X cards are explained to DM's who are meant to cover it before every game they run to also help minimize issues.
Generally speaking, as more unknowns are involved, more safeguards are put in place.
As a Dungeon Master I feel it's my responsibility to not only set the tone for my tables, but to enforce it with zero tolerance for any behavior that makes someone feel not-welcome in the game. It's not negotiable for me at all. While the story of a game might deal with darker themes at some points, I do not have any interest in any game that leaves a player feeling uncomfortable or unwelcome.
When someone starts to wander in the no-go direction I quickly stop it. Taking the player to the side if necessary. Removing them from my gaming circles if necessary.
My version of fun has no space for making people feel unwelcome, uncomfortable, or unliked.
One of my old DM's encouraged this kind of behavior. He even had a harem of female NPC's **** one of the players. The group as a whole was pretty disgusted by it, and the player this happened to was very pissed off. Eventually the group broke up, but not because of things like this. I personally thought it was pretty disgusting that the DM would think something like this was okay. Since then, my husband has DM'ed using this knowledge, and does the absolute best he can to prevent things like this from happening again.
If the DM/GM doesn't discuss acceptable player boundary rules at the beginning of the game OR doesn't allow questions before playing the game...I just get up and leave. It is usually an indicator that the DM/GM is going to allow "anything is ok at my table".
If a game is heading down the directions of ****-y actions, I leave the game. I want a game to be fun, not disgusting. DMs/GMs know that most people will pretty much do what the DM/GM tells them is ok...people love to be led without question. It is up to the individual players to decide what is allowable. Luckily 95% of the games I've played under unknown DMs/GMs have been great experiences...but those 5% always stick in my mind. I've learned from their mistakes! -)
TQQdles™
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There was one other encounter, but it wasn't sexual in any way. While in the Navy I had a group I DM'd. We'd sit in the main rec area of the barracks for our games. One guy, not one of our group, would trash talk us and say he could play so much better, we were missing opportunities, etc. I got so annoyed with him I offered to let him play for a session to try him out. The rest of my group didn't like the idea but I persuaded them to give it a try. I even allowed this new guy to create a Drow Elf (though had never allowed Drow before). I pulled out an old dungeon my older sister had create which was designed specifically for a Drow Elf, but never told ay of the group that the dungeon was designed for Drow (my sister had no problems letting Drow characters in her games). This new player made every mistake in the book, you could say. He forgot what his character could do, and had to constantly be reminded to look at his sheet to recall his abilities, spells, even weapons. No deal, newbees often have this problem. But what got me was that by the end of the dungeon, everyone else had been killed except the Drow Elf (though all my regulars had graciously stayed to watch, relying on me to teach this guy a lesson). He gets to the final scene and all he needs is Faerie Fire (basic Drow ability) to win the dungeon (it's been over 20 years, so don't recall what the challenge actually was). He tried everything he could think of, but never once used Faerie Fire. He would refuse to even look at his sheet by then and wouldn't allow anyone else to advise him, even me as the DM, who DID try to help. Finally, he was killed, and the player was so enraged he stood up and stormed off without trying to find out what he missed. He never bothered us again, either. My regulars were quite pleased, as judging by the game we'd just had, he didn't mesh well with us anyway. He did try to start his own group after that, but his players would leave to join my group after only a few sessions with him. I think he needed to learn to play well with others and listen.
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In over 30 years of playing D&D, I've never encountered 'harassment' at any of my tables. And I only allow parody characters if it is a non-serious short run game. I'm also not a fan on playing with people who look for reasons to be offended. If I find myself with people like that, I tend to move along to other groups where it's ok to make fun of and be made fun of. My best groups were where we all took turns dogging each other. It was always in good fun and if you were gonna dish it out, you better be ok with taking it too. Seems like everyone is too serious about social interactions these days. I will say though that sexual role playing or sexual themed content were never allowed in my games. I don't play RPGs to 'find myself'. I make sure everyone knows that from day one.
A lot of folks think harassment is strictly a matter of overtly antagonist action of one person directed at another person. Harassment is also tied up and most frequently addressed in the work place, or play space, in terms of hostile environment.
To tack on something constructive to this resurrected thread, while I've yet to use it, I've found this tool an interesting way to define both GM and Player boundaries in a game:
As someone who's been in and around the hobby for around 35 years, I like many scoffed initially at some sort of "HR form" for TTRPGs, but having read up on the philosophy behind it and having educated myself on some of the more well public incidents that animated some community members to develop it, I'm glad it's there. Again, I haven't used it as a distributed form in my groups, but I do use it as a sort of guide in Session Zero and pre game spaces to make sure I understand boundaries and also the players understand my boundaries ahead of the game rather than having to do a game pause to either have a "are we all good with this?" discussion or a game derailment and maybe a group dissolution because someone wasn't aware of the lines that aren't supposed to be crossed.
I'm feeling curious today. What problems have your groups had with various forms of harassment and/or discrimination? Besides the ****-y behavior I've heard about and witnessed a little of, I've heard of some people creating things like "Caitlyn Jenner parody" characters to belittle certain types of people, and the like. How did your groups respond to this type of behavior?
I'm also curious if any one else has gotten the feeling that Tieflings are somewhat based off of older 'Curse of Cain' beliefs. Has that ever come up in a game? How did people respond to it?
I've read about some fairly horrible situations over the years, but in the 33 years I've been playing DnD (and many other tabletop games) I've been lucky to rarely encounter any harassment or discrimination and those situations that have occurred have been dealt with easily by discussing viewpoints out-of-game.
I think it's about social groups - I've pretty much only ever roleplayed with good friends, so the social aspect is really important and people in the group aren't going to knowingly act in a way that is offensive to other members of the group.
The Tiefling thing is interesting - there are a whole host of odd monsters in DnD and I personally find it odd when I read about someone overlaying real-world belief systems such as the example you linked, because to me, "it's obvious it's just some fantasy monster" - my view may be a bit naive I guess, but I tend to take these things at face value, rather than choose to believe there's some deeper and more malignant thought in the design.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Art imitates life though. Just about everything in the game manuals is based off of a real life myth or system. There's myths out there that Cain married Lilith (first wife/lover of Adam and mother of all demons), so the "curse of cain" thing isn't that hard of a stretch.
True - so much of the classic DnD is abstractly based on European myths.
I know so many roleplay geeks though that I don't think thoughts run much deeper than:
*reads some ancient myth*
"Oh wow, that would make a cool DnD monster - it could have affinity with the night and life draining attacks"
I may be wrong and there may be a deeper bias I don't understand, but I think analysing such things to a deeper level can arrive at conclusions of thoughts that were never there in the first place. :)
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Ooo, share some stories. I've had nothing but pleasant players who've played nicely.
Bring on the cringe.
There are some rules you need to lay down before starting your game (I normally write up a rules doc and link it for the group). Everyone is required to read it before session 0 and in session 0 if they show up and design characters they are agreeing upon those rules. Because this is the session to question the rules, and things presented. Everything is open to debate and the group agrees upon things. The major things I include are: No real life situations are brought into game, such as politics, religion or sexual orientation (or gender bashing), EVERYONE has the right to feel comfortable sitting at the table. Any player caught bullying or designing up things to insult another people or make them feel uncomfortable, gets a stern warning and then if they keep it up, ejected from the group. I know this sounds a bit extreme, but Ive had some wonky players over the 20 something years of running games, join my sessions.
Host of the Pocket Mimic Podcast, a D&D 5e Show! Join us and listen in as we build a new world step by step! (http://Pocketmimic.com)
DMs vs PCs! All DMs are evil | ENnie Award Winner | OSR style in a 5e world |1000+ character souls taken | 25+ yrs exp
Remember to hit the thanks button, if you feel my info was useful, it helps me know I've provided helpful information and know I'm on the right track.
I've never experienced anything quite as bad as the OP link discusses, but I've definitely seen people being forced into gender stereotypes. The female cleric who has to be nice, and who is always forced to be in peril and to be rescued with no option to do anything else. It gets tired quickly and the worst part is, it turns people off a hobby that shouldn't be like that.
I've never witnessed harassment, but I have had some players want to be spotlight hogs. I usually just pointedly shift attention to other players.
Harassment of another player or bigot activity would be a good way to be disinvited from any game I was connected with. No racism, sexism, genderism, etc.
geek dad with 3 geek kids
When you run with a group of PCs called the "Dukes of Depredation" you pick up stories. One guy collects pants...
I've never seen harassment among my own groups, but I've heard stories of people breaking up campaigns because some people want to be rude just for the sake of being rude.
"Anything is possible if you don't know what you're talking about." - My Granddad
I have had one player who always plays a cleric, so that he can offer 'Lay on Hands' to the female characters, so I told him that his god didn't approve and it might stop working...
The other thing was going into bars and asking for a wench - so I had the female bartender feed him lots of ale and then take his money.
I don't have much in the way of personal run ins with it, but mostly I'm gaming with friends so boundaries and personalities are known. Smaller public games run within the local community are supposed to be using the X card system to put a bit of a stop to it. At a local convention level where the community tends to run the tabletop gaming track, X cards are explained to DM's who are meant to cover it before every game they run to also help minimize issues.
Generally speaking, as more unknowns are involved, more safeguards are put in place.
As a Dungeon Master I feel it's my responsibility to not only set the tone for my tables, but to enforce it with zero tolerance for any behavior that makes someone feel not-welcome in the game. It's not negotiable for me at all. While the story of a game might deal with darker themes at some points, I do not have any interest in any game that leaves a player feeling uncomfortable or unwelcome.
When someone starts to wander in the no-go direction I quickly stop it. Taking the player to the side if necessary. Removing them from my gaming circles if necessary.
My version of fun has no space for making people feel unwelcome, uncomfortable, or unliked.
One of my old DM's encouraged this kind of behavior. He even had a harem of female NPC's **** one of the players. The group as a whole was pretty disgusted by it, and the player this happened to was very pissed off. Eventually the group broke up, but not because of things like this. I personally thought it was pretty disgusting that the DM would think something like this was okay. Since then, my husband has DM'ed using this knowledge, and does the absolute best he can to prevent things like this from happening again.
A dwarf with a canoe on his back? What could go wrong?
If the DM/GM doesn't discuss acceptable player boundary rules at the beginning of the game OR doesn't allow questions before playing the game...I just get up and leave. It is usually an indicator that the DM/GM is going to allow "anything is ok at my table".
If a game is heading down the directions of ****-y actions, I leave the game. I want a game to be fun, not disgusting. DMs/GMs know that most people will pretty much do what the DM/GM tells them is ok...people love to be led without question. It is up to the individual players to decide what is allowable. Luckily 95% of the games I've played under unknown DMs/GMs have been great experiences...but those 5% always stick in my mind. I've learned from their mistakes! -)
TQQdles™
Apple ][+ MOSTech 6502 1.0 MHz • 64k Ram • Hercules 8k EGA video card • 300baud USR modem • 2 x 340k 5¼" floppy drives • Software Emulated Sound • Apple DOS 3.3 • Sony 13" TV monitor • Integrated Keyboard • No Mouse
my group was never into that type of play. it was more about mischief and o few (accidental) city burnings (courtesy of our wild mage.)
[REDACTED]
There was one other encounter, but it wasn't sexual in any way. While in the Navy I had a group I DM'd. We'd sit in the main rec area of the barracks for our games. One guy, not one of our group, would trash talk us and say he could play so much better, we were missing opportunities, etc. I got so annoyed with him I offered to let him play for a session to try him out. The rest of my group didn't like the idea but I persuaded them to give it a try. I even allowed this new guy to create a Drow Elf (though had never allowed Drow before). I pulled out an old dungeon my older sister had create which was designed specifically for a Drow Elf, but never told ay of the group that the dungeon was designed for Drow (my sister had no problems letting Drow characters in her games). This new player made every mistake in the book, you could say. He forgot what his character could do, and had to constantly be reminded to look at his sheet to recall his abilities, spells, even weapons. No deal, newbees often have this problem. But what got me was that by the end of the dungeon, everyone else had been killed except the Drow Elf (though all my regulars had graciously stayed to watch, relying on me to teach this guy a lesson). He gets to the final scene and all he needs is Faerie Fire (basic Drow ability) to win the dungeon (it's been over 20 years, so don't recall what the challenge actually was). He tried everything he could think of, but never once used Faerie Fire. He would refuse to even look at his sheet by then and wouldn't allow anyone else to advise him, even me as the DM, who DID try to help. Finally, he was killed, and the player was so enraged he stood up and stormed off without trying to find out what he missed. He never bothered us again, either. My regulars were quite pleased, as judging by the game we'd just had, he didn't mesh well with us anyway. He did try to start his own group after that, but his players would leave to join my group after only a few sessions with him. I think he needed to learn to play well with others and listen.
In over 30 years of playing D&D, I've never encountered 'harassment' at any of my tables. And I only allow parody characters if it is a non-serious short run game. I'm also not a fan on playing with people who look for reasons to be offended. If I find myself with people like that, I tend to move along to other groups where it's ok to make fun of and be made fun of. My best groups were where we all took turns dogging each other. It was always in good fun and if you were gonna dish it out, you better be ok with taking it too. Seems like everyone is too serious about social interactions these days. I will say though that sexual role playing or sexual themed content were never allowed in my games. I don't play RPGs to 'find myself'. I make sure everyone knows that from day one.
A lot of folks think harassment is strictly a matter of overtly antagonist action of one person directed at another person. Harassment is also tied up and most frequently addressed in the work place, or play space, in terms of hostile environment.
To tack on something constructive to this resurrected thread, while I've yet to use it, I've found this tool an interesting way to define both GM and Player boundaries in a game:
Monte Cook Games Consent in Gaming
As someone who's been in and around the hobby for around 35 years, I like many scoffed initially at some sort of "HR form" for TTRPGs, but having read up on the philosophy behind it and having educated myself on some of the more well public incidents that animated some community members to develop it, I'm glad it's there. Again, I haven't used it as a distributed form in my groups, but I do use it as a sort of guide in Session Zero and pre game spaces to make sure I understand boundaries and also the players understand my boundaries ahead of the game rather than having to do a game pause to either have a "are we all good with this?" discussion or a game derailment and maybe a group dissolution because someone wasn't aware of the lines that aren't supposed to be crossed.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.