I was posting in IamSposta’s group PC generation thread, and I noticed that Celebrity Adventurer’s Scion had a total of 3 languages and tools. So, why in the world does this background have more tools and languages than others (note: it also has 30 gp as starting equipment)?
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I imagine it's because it is a spoiled descendant of a famous adventurer. *shrug*
Doesn’t make it balanced.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. I was under the impression you were wondering why it was imbalanced? No one said it was balanced.
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I think maybe the efficacy of one additional tool/language proficiency is being overestimated in the context of this background. That extra tool/language proficiency is equivalent to 250 days and 250 gp worth of training that any character can engage in during downtime. This is not something that would greatly imbalance things.
I think the real problem here is expecting game balance in D&D. D&D is not and never has been about balance. It is about getting close enough enough of the time that folks feel like they have lots of options available.
That said, I think this background is perfectly fine - and perhaps overvalued. Language proficiencies are pretty mediocre in most campaigns. Most people the average party encounters will speak common - that is hardwired into the Monster Manual and other books, with most creatures speaking Common in addition to their racial language. In some campaigns DMs might be a bit more strict on language - but the reality remains that most of the time a language proficiency is the extremely rare “oh wait, I speak that!” moment. Additionally, many casters have abilities to use their magic to bypass the need for specific language proficiencies, further devaluing the utility of such a proficiency.
Compare to tool proficiencies, which you can use with relative ease every single day. You do not need to wait around for the circumstances to present themselves - you can orchestrate the situation yourself. I cannot speak for everyone, but I generally would rather have two tool proficiencies than a tool proficiency and two languages - it is going to be more useful in the average session.
As Davyd said, and as Caerwyn said. This is a hard reaching "Mountain out of a mole hill" situation looking for short sighted resolve and probably an unreasonable amount of specificity to be declared non-problematic. Considering the intent of the background, presumably, and the Campaign for which it was designed, it certainly does not come across as unnecessarily imbalanced. I cannot fathom an enjoyable Campaign where an extra proficiency or two (even from the start) and some extra gold could throw said game so askew it would cause long term problems. Jealousy? Perhaps, but not much else imvho.
I think the real problem here is expecting game balance in D&D. D&D is not and never has been about balance. It is about getting close enough enough of the time that folks feel like they have lots of options available.
That said, I think this background is perfectly fine - and perhaps overvalued. Language proficiencies are pretty mediocre in most campaigns. Most people the average party encounters will speak common - that is hardwired into the Monster Manual and other books, with most creatures speaking Common in addition to their racial language. In some campaigns DMs might be a bit more strict on language - but the reality remains that most of the time a language proficiency is the extremely rare “oh wait, I speak that!” moment. Additionally, many casters have abilities to use their magic to bypass the need for specific language proficiencies, further devaluing the utility of such a proficiency.
Compare to tool proficiencies, which you can use with relative ease every single day. You do not need to wait around for the circumstances to present themselves - you can orchestrate the situation yourself. I cannot speak for everyone, but I generally would rather have two tool proficiencies than a tool proficiency and two languages - it is going to be more useful in the average session.
Languages are a lot like the exploration side of D&D, they require a certain amount of buy-in from the DM for them to be useful much of the time. I actively try to make language proficiencies useful in campaigns and it still only comes up maybe once every 4ish sessions or so at most.
I think the real problem here is expecting game balance in D&D. D&D is not and never has been about balance. It is about getting close enough enough of the time that folks feel like they have lots of options available.
That said, I think this background is perfectly fine - and perhaps overvalued. Language proficiencies are pretty mediocre in most campaigns. Most people the average party encounters will speak common - that is hardwired into the Monster Manual and other books, with most creatures speaking Common in addition to their racial language. In some campaigns DMs might be a bit more strict on language - but the reality remains that most of the time a language proficiency is the extremely rare “oh wait, I speak that!” moment. Additionally, many casters have abilities to use their magic to bypass the need for specific language proficiencies, further devaluing the utility of such a proficiency.
Compare to tool proficiencies, which you can use with relative ease every single day. You do not need to wait around for the circumstances to present themselves - you can orchestrate the situation yourself. I cannot speak for everyone, but I generally would rather have two tool proficiencies than a tool proficiency and two languages - it is going to be more useful in the average session.
Languages are a lot like the exploration side of D&D, they require a certain amount of buy-in from the DM for them to be useful much of the time. I actively try to make language proficiencies useful in campaigns and it still only comes up maybe once every 4ish sessions or so at most.
Languages are a harder version though - a DM can still do exploration even without characters skilled at it. Language skills though...you are effectively locking parts of the game except to people who get lucky and pick the right language. To make languages useful, you have to create the situation where they would be...which then makes you wonder why it's worth tracking since the DM was going to give it to you anyway. Or just get the Wizard learn Comprehend Languages.
Anyway, what makes this one stand out is the disguise kit + proficiency (which is fine, but a very useful) then treble the normal amount of gold. By L5 it's not going to be a standout advantage, but at L1, that's a pretty darn good boost.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think the real problem here is expecting game balance in D&D. D&D is not and never has been about balance.
Well, it was once, but that's only remembered by those of us who enjoyed 4th ed.
As someone who enjoyed 4e, I got a chuckle out of this. 4E had the greatest potential for balance, but there were still substantial balance issues. Certain sorcerer builds, for example, could take advantage of the feat system and their own innate abilities to deal massive amount of damage to entire groups of enemies every turn.
As I said, balance isn’t D&D’s forte - frankly, I think the lack of balance is part of its charm.
Languages are a lot like the exploration side of D&D, they require a certain amount of buy-in from the DM for them to be useful much of the time. I actively try to make language proficiencies useful in campaigns and it still only comes up maybe once every 4ish sessions or so at most.
Aye, and, even if it does come up once every four sessions, it’s very likely it will be a language someone else in the party knows. Individually, even with a DM who is angling to utilise language proficiency, there are going to be long, long swaths of the game where you just don’t get anything out of your specific proficiency.
It becomes a bit better if you have someone else in your party who also speaks the language so you can secretly communicate (assuming no one has access to telepathy), but that requires a level of coordination in character building.
I think AI generally isn't overly "unbalanced", but the original spells and features in that book, I feel, are designed more with flavor and humor in mind. Every spell created for that book has goofy flavor text, and several of them are weirdly exploitable but only under very specific circumstances.
Either way, I think all the backgrounds fall short of the ones that just outright give you a feat.
Languages are a lot like the exploration side of D&D, they require a certain amount of buy-in from the DM for them to be useful much of the time. I actively try to make language proficiencies useful in campaigns and it still only comes up maybe once every 4ish sessions or so at most.
Aye, and, even if it does come up once every four sessions, it’s very likely it will be a language someone else in the party knows. Individually, even with a DM who is angling to utilise language proficiency, there are going to be long, long swaths of the game where you just don’t get anything out of your specific proficiency.
It becomes a bit better if you have someone else in your party who also speaks the language so you can secretly communicate (assuming no one has access to telepathy), but that requires a level of coordination in character building.
😒 Frankly I feel there should always be a certain level of coordination in character building. That’s why I incorporate character creation into session 0, so the group can build their characters together and discuss things as they do it. That way every PC can be built specifically with the campaign in mind too.
Apparently everyone in D&D Land is a polyglot though, and speaks, reads, and writes at least three languages (including Common) most of the time. So I usually try to pick one language that at least some one other person in the party speaks for those moments of surreptitious communication, and a language nobody speaks so as to cover as many languages as we can as a group so that no matter what any NPCs are saying at least one of us can probably understand it. Not everyone else in my group does that however, usually just picking language they feel fit their backstories the best. But we usually still get a lot of bases covered anyway.
Proficiency in an extra language or tools isn’t game-breaking in any way. And the 30 GP is because the background doesn’t have any extra starting stuff outside the clothes and the disguise kit. Look at other backgrounds they have more starting stuff.
Apparently everyone in D&D Land is a polyglot though, and speaks, reads, and writes at least three languages (including Common) most of the time.
I mean, regarding languages you can chalk a bit of it up to the usual "PC's aren't typical citizens" bit. Plus the languages are Common, what used to be a Race-specific language if appropriate, and 0-2 from backgrounds. Really it's not that much of a stretch; I've heard it can be relatively easy to be bilingual if you grow up around both languages, which just leaves the 0-2 the character might have picked up thanks to their background over a period of years, either from study or exposure.
Speaking multiple languages is the norm. Living in Italy, virtually everyone spoke at least two, often three. Most Africans I've met spoke at least three, usually more. I often joked that you could catch someone pretending to be Albanian out by asking how many languages they know - if it's less than five, they're not Albanian.
It's a very Western thing, largely the Anglosphere, to only speak one language. I guess you could argue that Common mirrors English and therefore should push for monolingualism. However, it's also easy to believe that most people would speak a locally common language (Common) as well as one associated with their heritage (Eg Draconic for Dragonborn). PCs tend to be part of the elite or well travelled, so another language is quite easy to accept.
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I was posting in IamSposta’s group PC generation thread, and I noticed that Celebrity Adventurer’s Scion had a total of 3 languages and tools. So, why in the world does this background have more tools and languages than others (note: it also has 30 gp as starting equipment)?
Which book is this option from?
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Trying to get your physical content on Beyond is like going to Microsoft and saying "I have a physical Playstation disk, give me a digital Xbox version!"
Doesn’t make it balanced.
But the the race and spells are balanced.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here. I was under the impression you were wondering why it was imbalanced? No one said it was balanced.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think maybe the efficacy of one additional tool/language proficiency is being overestimated in the context of this background. That extra tool/language proficiency is equivalent to 250 days and 250 gp worth of training that any character can engage in during downtime. This is not something that would greatly imbalance things.
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I think the real problem here is expecting game balance in D&D. D&D is not and never has been about balance. It is about getting close enough enough of the time that folks feel like they have lots of options available.
That said, I think this background is perfectly fine - and perhaps overvalued. Language proficiencies are pretty mediocre in most campaigns. Most people the average party encounters will speak common - that is hardwired into the Monster Manual and other books, with most creatures speaking Common in addition to their racial language. In some campaigns DMs might be a bit more strict on language - but the reality remains that most of the time a language proficiency is the extremely rare “oh wait, I speak that!” moment. Additionally, many casters have abilities to use their magic to bypass the need for specific language proficiencies, further devaluing the utility of such a proficiency.
Compare to tool proficiencies, which you can use with relative ease every single day. You do not need to wait around for the circumstances to present themselves - you can orchestrate the situation yourself. I cannot speak for everyone, but I generally would rather have two tool proficiencies than a tool proficiency and two languages - it is going to be more useful in the average session.
As Davyd said, and as Caerwyn said. This is a hard reaching "Mountain out of a mole hill" situation looking for short sighted resolve and probably an unreasonable amount of specificity to be declared non-problematic. Considering the intent of the background, presumably, and the Campaign for which it was designed, it certainly does not come across as unnecessarily imbalanced. I cannot fathom an enjoyable Campaign where an extra proficiency or two (even from the start) and some extra gold could throw said game so askew it would cause long term problems. Jealousy? Perhaps, but not much else imvho.
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Languages are a lot like the exploration side of D&D, they require a certain amount of buy-in from the DM for them to be useful much of the time. I actively try to make language proficiencies useful in campaigns and it still only comes up maybe once every 4ish sessions or so at most.
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Well, it was once, but that's only remembered by those of us who enjoyed 4th ed.
Languages are a harder version though - a DM can still do exploration even without characters skilled at it. Language skills though...you are effectively locking parts of the game except to people who get lucky and pick the right language. To make languages useful, you have to create the situation where they would be...which then makes you wonder why it's worth tracking since the DM was going to give it to you anyway. Or just get the Wizard learn Comprehend Languages.
Anyway, what makes this one stand out is the disguise kit + proficiency (which is fine, but a very useful) then treble the normal amount of gold. By L5 it's not going to be a standout advantage, but at L1, that's a pretty darn good boost.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
As someone who enjoyed 4e, I got a chuckle out of this. 4E had the greatest potential for balance, but there were still substantial balance issues. Certain sorcerer builds, for example, could take advantage of the feat system and their own innate abilities to deal massive amount of damage to entire groups of enemies every turn.
As I said, balance isn’t D&D’s forte - frankly, I think the lack of balance is part of its charm.
Aye, and, even if it does come up once every four sessions, it’s very likely it will be a language someone else in the party knows. Individually, even with a DM who is angling to utilise language proficiency, there are going to be long, long swaths of the game where you just don’t get anything out of your specific proficiency.
It becomes a bit better if you have someone else in your party who also speaks the language so you can secretly communicate (assuming no one has access to telepathy), but that requires a level of coordination in character building.
I think AI generally isn't overly "unbalanced", but the original spells and features in that book, I feel, are designed more with flavor and humor in mind. Every spell created for that book has goofy flavor text, and several of them are weirdly exploitable but only under very specific circumstances.
Either way, I think all the backgrounds fall short of the ones that just outright give you a feat.
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😒 Frankly I feel there should always be a certain level of coordination in character building. That’s why I incorporate character creation into session 0, so the group can build their characters together and discuss things as they do it. That way every PC can be built specifically with the campaign in mind too.
Apparently everyone in D&D Land is a polyglot though, and speaks, reads, and writes at least three languages (including Common) most of the time. So I usually try to pick one language that at least some one other person in the party speaks for those moments of surreptitious communication, and a language nobody speaks so as to cover as many languages as we can as a group so that no matter what any NPCs are saying at least one of us can probably understand it. Not everyone else in my group does that however, usually just picking language they feel fit their backstories the best. But we usually still get a lot of bases covered anyway.
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Proficiency in an extra language or tools isn’t game-breaking in any way. And the 30 GP is because the background doesn’t have any extra starting stuff outside the clothes and the disguise kit. Look at other backgrounds they have more starting stuff.
I mean, regarding languages you can chalk a bit of it up to the usual "PC's aren't typical citizens" bit. Plus the languages are Common, what used to be a Race-specific language if appropriate, and 0-2 from backgrounds. Really it's not that much of a stretch; I've heard it can be relatively easy to be bilingual if you grow up around both languages, which just leaves the 0-2 the character might have picked up thanks to their background over a period of years, either from study or exposure.
Speaking multiple languages is the norm. Living in Italy, virtually everyone spoke at least two, often three. Most Africans I've met spoke at least three, usually more. I often joked that you could catch someone pretending to be Albanian out by asking how many languages they know - if it's less than five, they're not Albanian.
It's a very Western thing, largely the Anglosphere, to only speak one language. I guess you could argue that Common mirrors English and therefore should push for monolingualism. However, it's also easy to believe that most people would speak a locally common language (Common) as well as one associated with their heritage (Eg Draconic for Dragonborn). PCs tend to be part of the elite or well travelled, so another language is quite easy to accept.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.