One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
There's a School of Necromancy subclass for Wizards.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It really depends on what they want out of the Necromancer. There are a few subclasses that could help depending on what direction they want to take. It's worth noting that 5e doesn't handle armies of minions very well, slows everything down to a crawl.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I would recommend caution before choosing Necromancy Wizard—it is one of those things which seems fun, but has gameplay issues. The way it works—you get a lot of ways to create a zombie army. Fun, right? Not quite - in reality, you end up with a bunch of tiny monsters that take up space on the map, have low accuracy and damage, and end up taking very long turns as you roll attacks for each of your additional monsters. It is a subclass uniquely designed to lead to slow gameplay problems, and has a propensity to lead to repetitive and dull play patterns. That doesn’t mean you cannot play a Necromancer Wizard, of course, but you should be aware of its many issues before committing to it.
I might look instead at subclasses with death themes, but where the rest of the class is also solid. Things like Death Domain Cleric or Circle of Spores Druid both have strong necromancy vibes, without focusing too heavily on just making a slow-to-play zombie army.
Ok cool, thank you both i didn't know where to look that is a good starting point to try and find it, and my player wants to be a bard/necromancer. I think that would be cool or at the very least interesting.
Ok cool, thank you both i didn't know where to look that is a good starting point to try and find it, and my player wants to be a bard/necromancer. I think that would be cool or at the very least interesting.
College of Spirits Bard is flavoured as someone who can listen to spirits and learn from them. They do not innately get Animate Dead, but Magical Secrets, a bard feature, could be used to gain access to that and other necromancy spells.
Other subclasses for consideration are Death Cleric, Undead/Undying Warlock (Undead is generally considered superior), and Spores Druid.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I like WotC's shift toward the new summoning spells. It would be cool if they created a variant of summon undead that allowed you to create a swarm of zombies or the likes, using a single stat block like the skeletal swarm. That would speed things up somewhat.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
Tell me how a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer operate in the same group when the Necromancer fires up a group of Undead as minions, when it is built into the Grave Cleric subclass to obliterate Undead? Or better, when any Cleric uses its Channel Divinity Feature of Turn Undead, and suddenly all the Necromancer's minions are scattered as well? Or at 5th level, when those zombies and skeletons are not only turned, but destroyed. Or is the DM now supposed to not have Undead attack a party, to avoid these mechanical conflicts?
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
Tell me how a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer operate in the same group when the Necromancer fires up a group of Undead as minions, when it is built into the Grave Cleric subclass to obliterate Undead? Or better, when any Cleric uses its Channel Divinity Feature of Turn Undead, and suddenly all the Necromancer's minions are scattered as well? Or at 5th level, when those zombies and skeletons are not only turned, but destroyed. Or is the DM now supposed to not have Undead attack a party, to avoid these mechanical conflicts?
Easy. Neither player being an jerk and the players recognising that the greater good might involve working with someone you personally find objectionable. It really isn’t hard—the real world works that way also.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
Tell me how a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer operate in the same group when the Necromancer fires up a group of Undead as minions, when it is built into the Grave Cleric subclass to obliterate Undead? Or better, when any Cleric uses its Channel Divinity Feature of Turn Undead, and suddenly all the Necromancer's minions are scattered as well? Or at 5th level, when those zombies and skeletons are not only turned, but destroyed. Or is the DM now supposed to not have Undead attack a party, to avoid these mechanical conflicts?
Easy. Neither player being an ass and the players recognising that the greater good might involve working with someone you personally find objectionable. It really isn’t hard—the real world works that way also.
You did not answer the question within the confines of the game mechanics, and instead deflected to some nebulous concept. Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, how a Grave Cleric and Necromancer operate within the same party? Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, when a party is attacked by low CR undead, how a Cleric when it uses its Channel Divinity to Turn Undead, turns "those Undead, but not these Undead".
And if you are stating that PC's (not the players) recognize that working with someone they find objectionable, well, sorry, in many cases, that is simply impossible, within the structure of the game. There is ZERO chance a Lawful Good Paladin, or any LG PC for that matter, will work with a CE PC that kills/steals/tortures on a whim, or even for a "good reason".
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
Tell me how a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer operate in the same group when the Necromancer fires up a group of Undead as minions, when it is built into the Grave Cleric subclass to obliterate Undead? Or better, when any Cleric uses its Channel Divinity Feature of Turn Undead, and suddenly all the Necromancer's minions are scattered as well? Or at 5th level, when those zombies and skeletons are not only turned, but destroyed. Or is the DM now supposed to not have Undead attack a party, to avoid these mechanical conflicts?
Easy. Neither player being an ass and the players recognising that the greater good might involve working with someone you personally find objectionable. It really isn’t hard—the real world works that way also.
You did not answer the question within the confines of the game mechanics, and instead deflected to some nebulous concept. Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, how a Grave Cleric and Necromancer operate within the same party? Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, when a party is attacked by low CR undead, how a Cleric when it uses its Channel Divinity to Turn Undead, turns "those Undead, but not these Undead".
And if you are stating that PC's (not the players) recognize that working with someone they find objectionable, well, sorry, in many cases, that is simply impossible, within the structure of the game. There is ZERO chance a Lawful Good Paladin, or any LG PC for that matter, will work with a CE PC that kills/steals/tortures on a whim, or even for a "good reason".
[REDACTED]. The limited view of morality and alignment in D&D you are espousing might have been Bigot Gygax’s view in the 70s, but it was not the only view then and it is an increasingly minority view now. And, of course the guy who justified this view by quoting literal military orders for acts of genocide against native Americans… probably not the best person to emulate.
OP can do what they want in their game. You might not like it, but, guess what, it isn’t your game. If they have players with enough emotional intelligence to see how good folks might not jump right to stabbing, or to know that good and evil sometimes are forced to work together? Good for them.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
The creature's hit point maximum is increased by an amount equal to your wizard level.
The creature adds your proficiency bonus to its weapon damage rolls.
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
Tell me how a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer operate in the same group when the Necromancer fires up a group of Undead as minions, when it is built into the Grave Cleric subclass to obliterate Undead? Or better, when any Cleric uses its Channel Divinity Feature of Turn Undead, and suddenly all the Necromancer's minions are scattered as well? Or at 5th level, when those zombies and skeletons are not only turned, but destroyed. Or is the DM now supposed to not have Undead attack a party, to avoid these mechanical conflicts?
Easy. Neither player being an ass and the players recognising that the greater good might involve working with someone you personally find objectionable. It really isn’t hard—the real world works that way also.
You did not answer the question within the confines of the game mechanics, and instead deflected to some nebulous concept. Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, how a Grave Cleric and Necromancer operate within the same party? Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, when a party is attacked by low CR undead, how a Cleric when it uses its Channel Divinity to Turn Undead, turns "those Undead, but not these Undead".
And if you are stating that PC's (not the players) recognize that working with someone they find objectionable, well, sorry, in many cases, that is simply impossible, within the structure of the game. There is ZERO chance a Lawful Good Paladin, or any LG PC for that matter, will work with a CE PC that kills/steals/tortures on a whim, or even for a "good reason".
[REDACTED]. The limited view of morality and alignment in D&D you are espousing might have been Bigot Gygax’s view in the 70s, but it was not the only view then and it is an increasingly minority view now. And, of course the guy who justified this view by quoting literal military orders for acts of genocide against native Americans… probably not the best person to emulate.
OP can do what they want in their game. You might not like it, but, guess what, it isn’t your game. If they have players with enough emotional intelligence to see how good folks might not jump right to stabbing, or to know that good and evil sometimes are forced to work together? Good for them.
[REDACTED] I would like to see your citations about Gygax, who without this site would not even exist. And if you think that Lawful Good PC's would simply watch another PC slice the throat of an NPC in order to intimidate another NPC into giving up information...wow. Even in the real world, with all its greyness, has laws that are followed.
I'm going out on a limb here but I feel compelled to point out that the Animate Dead and Create Undead spells are both available to Bards (via magical secrests) and ALL Clerics, Warlocks and Wizards. Excluding Wizard Necromancers because they are slightly better at using those spells does not appear to me to solve any inter-party conlficts of interest. There are ways you can play a Wizard Necromancer and not be a evil or surrounded by a horde of undead.
But a Wizard Necromancer, or indeed anyone with the above spells, could create undead as a teaching aid to show people the strengths and weaknesses of the undead, there is nothing in their blub, fluff or lore that dictates they must go around raising the dead from every cemetary they encounter, they can just as easily animate the dead of whatever "threat" they are currently faicng and you could extend their abilities to allow them to raise skeletal or zombified animals and there is a handy section of the DMG that tells you how to modify any creature to be just that.
EDIT: I'll bow out of this thread now as I don't want to get to involved in another thread on the morality of Necormancy.
One of my players wants to be a necromancer in our next campaign, I would love to allow that, but i have been looking and i cant find anything that would allow my player to build this in anyway. i suppose i have two questions. Did they take it away all together except for the spells, and if not what books may have it so i can gain that class.
There's a School of Necromancy subclass for Wizards.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
It really depends on what they want out of the Necromancer. There are a few subclasses that could help depending on what direction they want to take. It's worth noting that 5e doesn't handle armies of minions very well, slows everything down to a crawl.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I would recommend caution before choosing Necromancy Wizard—it is one of those things which seems fun, but has gameplay issues. The way it works—you get a lot of ways to create a zombie army. Fun, right? Not quite - in reality, you end up with a bunch of tiny monsters that take up space on the map, have low accuracy and damage, and end up taking very long turns as you roll attacks for each of your additional monsters. It is a subclass uniquely designed to lead to slow gameplay problems, and has a propensity to lead to repetitive and dull play patterns. That doesn’t mean you cannot play a Necromancer Wizard, of course, but you should be aware of its many issues before committing to it.
I might look instead at subclasses with death themes, but where the rest of the class is also solid. Things like Death Domain Cleric or Circle of Spores Druid both have strong necromancy vibes, without focusing too heavily on just making a slow-to-play zombie army.
Ok cool, thank you both i didn't know where to look that is a good starting point to try and find it, and my player wants to be a bard/necromancer. I think that would be cool or at the very least interesting.
College of Spirits Bard is flavoured as someone who can listen to spirits and learn from them. They do not innately get Animate Dead, but Magical Secrets, a bard feature, could be used to gain access to that and other necromancy spells.
Other subclasses for consideration are Death Cleric, Undead/Undying Warlock (Undead is generally considered superior), and Spores Druid.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I like WotC's shift toward the new summoning spells. It would be cool if they created a variant of summon undead that allowed you to create a swarm of zombies or the likes, using a single stat block like the skeletal swarm. That would speed things up somewhat.
Shameless self promotion but I've done a few bits related to playing wizard necromancers in different ways, link here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/wizard/50937-necromancy-primer-part-11-the-undead-fan
There is a bunch of links to the other 10 parts, the first is just a brief overview, the others all delve into a bit more of a specialised field.
One thing that no one has appeared to mention is not the myriad mechanical problems with having a small army of undead available, but the fact that said army would be "frowned upon" in civilized circles, and would typically end up with the army either dead, or the citizens running screaming from it. Eventually, the good folk will hunt down and kill the necromancer. And lets not even begin to see what happens if there is a lawful good Paladin or Grave Cleric nearby or in the party.
Just tell that player "No."
Not all necromancers have to have hordes of undead following their every step. If the only response to a player wanting to be a necromancer is "no," what's with all the previously mentioned necromancy subclasses?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Wizard School of Necromancy and Cleric Death or Grave Domain are prime candidate depending on what your player exactly want.
What's with that subclass, or others? A badly thought out design. 5e is riddled with badly designed subclasses, be it mechanically, or thematically. There are literally over 100 subclasses in the game. I am quite confident to say half of them are never considered by players.
And a necromancer is DESIGNED to have just that, a horde of Undead.
Let's look at the subclass features:
At 6th level, you add the Animate Dead spell to your spellbook if it is not there already. When you cast animate dead, you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones, creating another zombie or skeleton, as appropriate.
Whenever you create an undead using a necromancy spell, it has additional benefits:
Starting at 14th level, you can use magic to bring undead under your control, even those created by other wizards. As an action, you can choose one undead that you can see within 60 feet of you. That creature must make a Charisma saving throw against your wizard spell save DC. If it succeeds, you can't use this feature on it again. If it fails, it becomes friendly to you and obeys your commands until you use this feature again.
If a group actually does play their PC's correctly, then Lawful Good Paladin's will kill on sight Necromancers. And Grave Clerics, well: "At 1st level, you gain the ability to occasionally sense the presence of the undead, whose existence is an insult to the natural cycle of life"
So no, Necromancers are NOT compatible with many other subclasses, and thematically, would be hated by virtually all good NPC's.
It should be noted OP, this user is stating as absolute something that is decidedly not an absolute. Maybe in their games that’s true, but that doesn’t mean it is true in every game. Nor should it be - the magic of D&D is you can do what works for you, your players, and your world.
Do what works for your world and what makes sense for your world. That can be open acceptance of necromancy. It can be fear of necromancy. It can be a mix of different cultures with different views on it. It can be whatever you want. The possibilities are endless.
Tell me how a Grave Cleric and a Necromancer operate in the same group when the Necromancer fires up a group of Undead as minions, when it is built into the Grave Cleric subclass to obliterate Undead? Or better, when any Cleric uses its Channel Divinity Feature of Turn Undead, and suddenly all the Necromancer's minions are scattered as well? Or at 5th level, when those zombies and skeletons are not only turned, but destroyed. Or is the DM now supposed to not have Undead attack a party, to avoid these mechanical conflicts?
Easy. Neither player being an jerk and the players recognising that the greater good might involve working with someone you personally find objectionable. It really isn’t hard—the real world works that way also.
You did not answer the question within the confines of the game mechanics, and instead deflected to some nebulous concept. Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, how a Grave Cleric and Necromancer operate within the same party? Tell me, precisely, within the game mechanics, when a party is attacked by low CR undead, how a Cleric when it uses its Channel Divinity to Turn Undead, turns "those Undead, but not these Undead".
And if you are stating that PC's (not the players) recognize that working with someone they find objectionable, well, sorry, in many cases, that is simply impossible, within the structure of the game. There is ZERO chance a Lawful Good Paladin, or any LG PC for that matter, will work with a CE PC that kills/steals/tortures on a whim, or even for a "good reason".
[REDACTED]. The limited view of morality and alignment in D&D you are espousing might have been Bigot Gygax’s view in the 70s, but it was not the only view then and it is an increasingly minority view now. And, of course the guy who justified this view by quoting literal military orders for acts of genocide against native Americans… probably not the best person to emulate.
OP can do what they want in their game. You might not like it, but, guess what, it isn’t your game. If they have players with enough emotional intelligence to see how good folks might not jump right to stabbing, or to know that good and evil sometimes are forced to work together? Good for them.
[REDACTED] I would like to see your citations about Gygax, who without this site would not even exist. And if you think that Lawful Good PC's would simply watch another PC slice the throat of an NPC in order to intimidate another NPC into giving up information...wow. Even in the real world, with all its greyness, has laws that are followed.
I'm going out on a limb here but I feel compelled to point out that the Animate Dead and Create Undead spells are both available to Bards (via magical secrests) and ALL Clerics, Warlocks and Wizards. Excluding Wizard Necromancers because they are slightly better at using those spells does not appear to me to solve any inter-party conlficts of interest. There are ways you can play a Wizard Necromancer and not be a evil or surrounded by a horde of undead.
In terms of D&D, I've always thought of Van Helsing from the Hammer Horror films as more in line with a Vampire Hunting Wizard than any other D&D class. (Slightly longer view here: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/wizard/49763-necromancy-primer-part-6-the-van-helsing-undead\).
But a Wizard Necromancer, or indeed anyone with the above spells, could create undead as a teaching aid to show people the strengths and weaknesses of the undead, there is nothing in their blub, fluff or lore that dictates they must go around raising the dead from every cemetary they encounter, they can just as easily animate the dead of whatever "threat" they are currently faicng and you could extend their abilities to allow them to raise skeletal or zombified animals and there is a handy section of the DMG that tells you how to modify any creature to be just that.
EDIT: I'll bow out of this thread now as I don't want to get to involved in another thread on the morality of Necormancy.