Tool proficiencies are uncommon, but in theory they could come up for things like determining the properties of an unknown potion, making important repairs to a ship, attempting to find hidden features on a map, etc. Really, using tool profs is fairly campaign dependent and can be up to the player to look for potential uses. Given that you get access to a new tier of infusions at the same level you get Tool Expertise, I think it’s safe to call the expertise more a ribbon feature.
At 6th level you gain a skill called tool expertise and well I'll let the description describe it lol
"At 6th level, your proficiency bonus is now doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool."
I've never played a class that has any use for any kind of artisans tools and so can't think of any scenarios for this to be usefull
Mostly looking for tips to get the most out of my artificer ty amazing community <3
It’s really up to players to look for opportunities to use their tool proficiencies, and to DMs to remember their players have them and suggest them as possible alternatives to skills when calling for ability checks. Recently in a campaign there was an opportunity to pull a gemstone from a statue, and I asked if jeweler's tools would be helpful. And then they would also be useful in appraising the gem too. Or when analyzing a stone wall to see if it’s climbable then mason's tools would be handy, or when examining a strange arrow then woodcarver's tools could be useful. Stuff like that. Sure you could use skills like Perception or Investigation for some of that stuff, but if you happen to have Expertise with the tools, but not with the skills, then you’re better off using the tools proficiency for those checks.
My Warforged Rune Knight has a lot of tool proficiencies and thanks to the fire rune even expertise.
I constantly watch out for things, an expert in a certain field of craft can contribute to. Analysing rare gems, finding the best way to fix a hole in the hull of an air ship, etc.
Leatherworker is good to skin a dragon, which can be used to make armor (that armor is popular with druids). There is a market for monster skins and parts.
Tinker is good for fixing things...and my spelljammer DM required it to put the pieces (of different materials created with the fabricate spell) together into a ballista...something my mending cantrip could not have done.
Herbalist and alchemist kits are good because you can create items (healing and antivenom potions for the former and acid and alchemists fire for the latter) and you lose the expensive ingredients if you fail, so you want to be better at it.
I've used navigator's tools to orient our ship (once)
forgery, poisoner, thieves, and disguise kits are self-explanatory. I like to have theove's tools for incase we don't have a rogue, he isn't doing his job, or he fails a roll.
It’s worth noting that the leatherworking example is very DM dependent; there’s little to no rules for harvesting and selling monster bits. Not attacking the suggestion, just pointing out that it’s something you would want to run by the DM at session 0, rather than simply assume will be allowed.
Part of the problem is that they cannot seem to decide if tools are skills in their own right, or skill enablers, giving advantage to skills where applicable.
No, that’s actually clear-cut; tool proficiency allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to a relevant ability check; if you have a skill that would also apply, then you take the higher bonus if there’s a difference and get advantage as well.
This and herbalism kit (for healing potions and antitoxins) are the big ones mechanically. The rest have uses too but tend to be more on the "DM-may-I" end of the permission scale.
This and herbalism kit (for healing potions and antitoxins) are the big ones mechanically. The rest have uses too but tend to be more on the "DM-may-I" end of the permission scale.
Alchemist tools get a few useful options with XGtE as well.
Part of the problem is that they cannot seem to decide if tools are skills in their own right, or skill enablers, giving advantage to skills where applicable.
No, that’s actually clear-cut; tool proficiency allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to a relevant ability check; if you have a skill that would also apply, then you take the higher bonus if there’s a difference and get advantage as well.
There is a ton of overlap between tools and potentially relevant skills. If you are doing something like chopping wood, why wouldn`t athletics apply? Or axe proficiency? Or survival? Or carpentry/woodworking?
If you are an expert in survival, what good would being an expert with fishing gear do you? How about playing an instrument? If you are an expert singer (performance expert), it does absolutely nothing to improve the performance?
That's where the advantage comes into play; you get to use your skill bonus, and fish for better results. Though singing doesn't correctly corelate to playing an instrument and vice versa, but if you were looking to do both in one performance, then you'd have advantage.
It's my opinion that Artificers basically have a dead level at 6. The feature technically does something, but practically does very little, and it's all they get, aside from a little more HP.
However now that I'm looking at it, I'm wondering whether people think it would apply to Dispel Magic and Counterspell. Their Spellcasting feature specifies that they have to be proficient with the tools they're holding, so arguably the ability check required by the spell "uses" their proficiency? Idk.
It wouldn't make or break the class either way. I'm not super convinced it works, but I'd probably rule that it does because I think the feature sucks and could use a little boost.
Part of the problem is that they cannot seem to decide if tools are skills in their own right, or skill enablers, giving advantage to skills where applicable.
No, that’s actually clear-cut; tool proficiency allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to a relevant ability check; if you have a skill that would also apply, then you take the higher bonus if there’s a difference and get advantage as well.
There is a ton of overlap between tools and potentially relevant skills. If you are doing something like chopping wood, why wouldn`t athletics apply? Or axe proficiency? Or survival? Or carpentry/woodworking?
If you are an expert in survival, what good would being an expert with fishing gear do you? How about playing an instrument? If you are an expert singer (performance expert), it does absolutely nothing to improve the performance?
That's where the advantage comes into play; you get to use your skill bonus, and fish for better results. Though singing doesn't correctly corelate to playing an instrument and vice versa, but if you were looking to do both in one performance, then you'd have advantage.
But the OP was asking about the artificer ability which gives tool expertise . If someone has expertise in both tool and any given skill the tool would relate to, the tool expertise is redundant.
The expertise itself is redundant, but they still get advantage on the roll. Plus, even if one particular roll would use both, there's other rolls that might not, so having the two expertises is not automatically redundant in all cases.
There is a ton of overlap between tools and potentially relevant skills. If you are doing something like chopping wood, why wouldn`t athletics apply? Or axe proficiency? Or survival? Or carpentry/woodworking?
If you are an expert in survival, what good would being an expert with fishing gear do you? How about playing an instrument? If you are an expert singer (performance expert), it does absolutely nothing to improve the performance?
Of course there's overlap. That's how skills in real life work too. Unless it's high DC, in 5e you don't need proficiency to make a skill check, it just makes the check easier to meet.
Axe proficiency is for fighting with an axe. And fights usually only last a couple of minutes. Chopping wood takes considerably longer. Which is why harvesting wood would usually be a Carpenter's Tools check with the Constitution modifier. Survival would allow you to easily gather firewood and make a basic shelter. Expertise with Carpenter's Tools would allow you to build an actual cabin.
Survival would let you track, hunt and not get lost in the woods. Fishing Supplies expertise would give you a better chance at catching fish than simply dropping the line in the water.
And, of course, Nature allows you to know which trees are best to gather the wood from and which fish are the best to eat.
If you're a singer and your performance is singing then the instrument doesn't come into play. If your performance is the musical instrument, viola the expertise once again comes into play.
It's my opinion that Artificers basically have a dead level at 6. The feature technically does something, but practically does very little, and it's all they get, aside from a little more HP.
Just an observation, but I think that’s more to do with how you do things compared to some other DMs vs. how useful (or useless) Tool Expertise is. For example, in the PbP you’re DMing that I’m in, you flat out told us how much that ruby we found is worth. When I’m DMing I require a Wisdom (jeweler's tools) check to figure that stuff out. If nobody is proficient with that tool then the party could get an approximate value with something like a Wisdom (Perception) check, but it’ll be a much higher DC. Expertise in those tools would obviously make determining the value of said gemstone much easier than simple proficiency, and the higher the success, the more accurate the appraisal would be. I’m not saying your way is wrong or anything by any means, just different is all. But tool proficiencie, and expertise, are only as useful as people let them be.
It's my opinion that Artificers basically have a dead level at 6. The feature technically does something, but practically does very little, and it's all they get, aside from a little more HP.
It looks that way if you glance at the features list, but they also gain two known Infusions at that level and new Infusions become available. So really it's kind of like saying a level where a caster doesn't get any features but hits a new spell level is a "dead level". Which is also why I acknowledged that Tool Expertise is more a ribbon/secondary feature for this level; the substantial boost comes from Infusions.
It's my opinion that Artificers basically have a dead level at 6. The feature technically does something, but practically does very little, and it's all they get, aside from a little more HP.
It looks that way if you glance at the features list, but they also gain two known Infusions at that level and new Infusions become available. So really it's kind of like saying a level where a caster doesn't get any features but hits a new spell level is a "dead level". Which is also why I acknowledged that Tool Expertise is more a ribbon/secondary feature for this level; the substantial boost comes from Infusions.
Oh! Good point. I actually did glance at the spell progression out of habit, saw it didn't advance at that level, and moved on. Forgot all about the infusions.
It's my opinion that Artificers basically have a dead level at 6. The feature technically does something, but practically does very little, and it's all they get, aside from a little more HP.
It looks that way if you glance at the features list, but they also gain two known Infusions at that level and new Infusions become available. So really it's kind of like saying a level where a caster doesn't get any features but hits a new spell level is a "dead level". Which is also why I acknowledged that Tool Expertise is more a ribbon/secondary feature for this level; the substantial boost comes from Infusions.
Oh! Good point. I actually did glance at the spell progression out of habit, saw it didn't advance at that level, and moved on. Forgot all about the infusions.
It's not the most obvious or intuitive thing.
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At 6th level you gain a skill called tool expertise and well I'll let the description describe it lol
"At 6th level, your proficiency bonus is now doubled for any ability check you make that uses your proficiency with a tool."
I've never played a class that has any use for any kind of artisans tools and so can't think of any scenarios for this to be usefull
Mostly looking for tips to get the most out of my artificer ty amazing community <3 https://9apps.ooo/
Thieves tools
Tool proficiencies are uncommon, but in theory they could come up for things like determining the properties of an unknown potion, making important repairs to a ship, attempting to find hidden features on a map, etc. Really, using tool profs is fairly campaign dependent and can be up to the player to look for potential uses. Given that you get access to a new tier of infusions at the same level you get Tool Expertise, I think it’s safe to call the expertise more a ribbon feature.
It’s really up to players to look for opportunities to use their tool proficiencies, and to DMs to remember their players have them and suggest them as possible alternatives to skills when calling for ability checks. Recently in a campaign there was an opportunity to pull a gemstone from a statue, and I asked if jeweler's tools would be helpful. And then they would also be useful in appraising the gem too. Or when analyzing a stone wall to see if it’s climbable then mason's tools would be handy, or when examining a strange arrow then woodcarver's tools could be useful. Stuff like that. Sure you could use skills like Perception or Investigation for some of that stuff, but if you happen to have Expertise with the tools, but not with the skills, then you’re better off using the tools proficiency for those checks.
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My Warforged Rune Knight has a lot of tool proficiencies and thanks to the fire rune even expertise.
I constantly watch out for things, an expert in a certain field of craft can contribute to. Analysing rare gems, finding the best way to fix a hole in the hull of an air ship, etc.
A few examples:
Leatherworker is good to skin a dragon, which can be used to make armor (that armor is popular with druids). There is a market for monster skins and parts.
Tinker is good for fixing things...and my spelljammer DM required it to put the pieces (of different materials created with the fabricate spell) together into a ballista...something my mending cantrip could not have done.
Herbalist and alchemist kits are good because you can create items (healing and antivenom potions for the former and acid and alchemists fire for the latter) and you lose the expensive ingredients if you fail, so you want to be better at it.
I've used navigator's tools to orient our ship (once)
forgery, poisoner, thieves, and disguise kits are self-explanatory. I like to have theove's tools for incase we don't have a rogue, he isn't doing his job, or he fails a roll.
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It’s worth noting that the leatherworking example is very DM dependent; there’s little to no rules for harvesting and selling monster bits. Not attacking the suggestion, just pointing out that it’s something you would want to run by the DM at session 0, rather than simply assume will be allowed.
They’re both.
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No, that’s actually clear-cut; tool proficiency allows you to apply your proficiency bonus to a relevant ability check; if you have a skill that would also apply, then you take the higher bonus if there’s a difference and get advantage as well.
This and herbalism kit (for healing potions and antitoxins) are the big ones mechanically. The rest have uses too but tend to be more on the "DM-may-I" end of the permission scale.
Alchemist tools get a few useful options with XGtE as well.
That's where the advantage comes into play; you get to use your skill bonus, and fish for better results. Though singing doesn't correctly corelate to playing an instrument and vice versa, but if you were looking to do both in one performance, then you'd have advantage.
Good to know....my DM doesn't allow potion making, so I couldn't try it out.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E and OSR geek.
It's my opinion that Artificers basically have a dead level at 6. The feature technically does something, but practically does very little, and it's all they get, aside from a little more HP.
However now that I'm looking at it, I'm wondering whether people think it would apply to Dispel Magic and Counterspell. Their Spellcasting feature specifies that they have to be proficient with the tools they're holding, so arguably the ability check required by the spell "uses" their proficiency? Idk.
It wouldn't make or break the class either way. I'm not super convinced it works, but I'd probably rule that it does because I think the feature sucks and could use a little boost.
The expertise itself is redundant, but they still get advantage on the roll. Plus, even if one particular roll would use both, there's other rolls that might not, so having the two expertises is not automatically redundant in all cases.
Of course there's overlap. That's how skills in real life work too. Unless it's high DC, in 5e you don't need proficiency to make a skill check, it just makes the check easier to meet.
Axe proficiency is for fighting with an axe. And fights usually only last a couple of minutes. Chopping wood takes considerably longer. Which is why harvesting wood would usually be a Carpenter's Tools check with the Constitution modifier. Survival would allow you to easily gather firewood and make a basic shelter. Expertise with Carpenter's Tools would allow you to build an actual cabin.
Survival would let you track, hunt and not get lost in the woods. Fishing Supplies expertise would give you a better chance at catching fish than simply dropping the line in the water.
And, of course, Nature allows you to know which trees are best to gather the wood from and which fish are the best to eat.
If you're a singer and your performance is singing then the instrument doesn't come into play. If your performance is the musical instrument, viola the expertise once again comes into play.
Just an observation, but I think that’s more to do with how you do things compared to some other DMs vs. how useful (or useless) Tool Expertise is. For example, in the PbP you’re DMing that I’m in, you flat out told us how much that ruby we found is worth. When I’m DMing I require a Wisdom (jeweler's tools) check to figure that stuff out. If nobody is proficient with that tool then the party could get an approximate value with something like a Wisdom (Perception) check, but it’ll be a much higher DC. Expertise in those tools would obviously make determining the value of said gemstone much easier than simple proficiency, and the higher the success, the more accurate the appraisal would be. I’m not saying your way is wrong or anything by any means, just different is all. But tool proficiencie, and expertise, are only as useful as people let them be.
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It looks that way if you glance at the features list, but they also gain two known Infusions at that level and new Infusions become available. So really it's kind of like saying a level where a caster doesn't get any features but hits a new spell level is a "dead level". Which is also why I acknowledged that Tool Expertise is more a ribbon/secondary feature for this level; the substantial boost comes from Infusions.
Oh! Good point. I actually did glance at the spell progression out of habit, saw it didn't advance at that level, and moved on. Forgot all about the infusions.
It's not the most obvious or intuitive thing.