I am really falling out of love with spell slots and how inflexible they are. There’s an alternative point system for spell casters (this is official) as it’s not the default, DDB does not support it.
Will DDB ever support spell points instead of spell slots?
A points based system is much more flexible than spell slots.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Doubtful; they don’t have much support for things like the boons, insanity effects, and similar optional features from the DMG, short of the usual “homebrew a feat to apply the effect” which has its own limitations. Most likely they’ve had someone conduct an analysis and concluded that there’s not enough interest to be worth the time to design and implement such a system; at the end of the day this is a business, and they’re only going to start projects that will not only pay back the time invested, but that look to be more profitable than the other options. Getting into the bones of the character sheet for what is at least seen as a very niche part of the DMG doesn’t sound like a big earner.
The cynic inside of me says no. They've had years to do it, and haven't. That said, the biggest opportunity is coming up with the revamp for 1D&D. If it's going to happen, it'll happen this year or at the latest next year.
Personally, I feel like they should make the Sorceror default to spell points to further differentiate it - like they have with the Warlock.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You can make a homebrew item with a number of charges on if equal to how many spell points, then use that to track your spell points on your character sheet. You can also add spells to the item to use those charges, so you can add your more common spells for more easy tracking.
You can make a homebrew item with a number of charges on if equal to how many spell points, then use that to track your spell points on your character sheet. You can also add spells to the item to use those charges, so you can add your more common spells for more easy tracking.
I’ve been thinking about homebrewing a new spell caster class “Archivist” who basically uses their magic to interface with a magical archive, from which they can cast any stored spell using a spell points system.
Their magical archive also has its own health pool and soaks up damage until it breaks. Making the caster invulnerable to attack for a period of time (as long as their archive is active).
The downside is that having their archive active roots then to spot. If they move at all, it deactivates the archive.
The intent was to make them a support caster class that specialises in tactically managing the battle field, using their archive to research and share info with their allies, debuff the enemy and buff their friends. So they find a place where they can see the battlefield, activate their archive and stay there.
But I keep putting it off for several reasons.
1. I don’t know how well such a class would go down
2. It wouldn’t work with spell slots (only spell points)
3. I’m not that good at using the DDB homebrew creator
In the mean time though I’m getting really frustrated with how constrained spell slots seem to be making all the current official casters, and I’m generally falling out of love with them, and magic in general because it feels wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
If spell points appear in the 2024 revised DMG as an optional variant, I'd believe they have plans to support it (though whether or not those plans would bear fruit is a separate question). If they're not in the 2024 revised DMG, then no, it'll definitely never happen.
I would not hold my breath. To me though, like high level adventures, it feels like the lack of popularity of spell points is more due to a lack of actual official support than lack of actual interest. Feats are entirely optional when 5e started, yet because there was enough support for it on Beyond, people actually used it and it does not feel like a niche option anymore. If spell point was supported in Beyond from the beginning, I do not think it would feel as niche as it is today.
Not sure if they are still working on the general features system to implement Epic Boons, Dark Gifts, and all that. Honestly, to save themselves some headache, it would probably be easier to just reclassify them all as feats so they can start implementing them.
The thing about reclassifying those other features as feats is that it creates the implication that they're all on the table as player choices, particularly now that they're dropping the idea that feats are expressly an option feature. Which was not the design intent when these things were made, they were designed as non-standard rewards a DM could offer or use as plot hooks. Plus a lot of them were designed to be temporary, so they'd need to rebalance the features if they're meant to become permanently accessible.
Honestly, I don't think D&D strictly needs a spell point system, and the current system really just makes low level casters more able to dominate with powerful effects while weakening high level casters to a notable degree, since they seemingly can only have a single slot per level per day for slot levels 6-9, as opposed to the two slots they could normally acquire for 6th and 7th level spells (though the text is a little fuzzy, which at the very least means the current description of the feature needs to be refined a bit). This ultimately like it would mostly just produce more spamming of spells like Fireball and Cone of Cold in combat as casters take advantage of the nova potential. So it's hypothetically more flexible, but ultimately seems to favor taking advantage of the ability to toss out more nukes per day than are currently available. A 5th level Wizard currently can get off 2 Fireballs per day (3 with AR, but I'm not clear on how that interacts with points, so let's just leave it out of the picture for this discussion) out of 9 available casts. At the same level a points Wizard could get off 5 per day and have a 1st level spell left over, for a total of 6 available casts.
The thing about this kind of "power pool" system is that it's usually implemented in a way where throwing a big punch produces some kind of cool-down effect (recast timers in MMO's, systems like Elder Scrolls using an ever-replenishing pool that needs to build back up, etc.), while the current spell point system has no check at all on sequential punches in the first half of the game short of outright emptying the tank, and nothing the current system doesn't already provide in the second. I honestly think they'd need to implement some kind of cool-down penalty to this to counter the nova potential (something they've already been moving to check in one or two classes in the UA), which would probably also stifle the "flexibility" the people who promote this system seem to desire. I dunno, just seems like this wouldn't actually "fix" things so much as create a whole other batch of problems, some of which look to me to be worse than the limits of a Vancian system. If it works for your table, more power to you, but I just don't think it's ready for mainstream without a serious overhaul, which again returns to the point that from a business perspective the marginal gains are unlikely to outweigh the marginal/opportunity costs of devoting resources to hashing this out instead of working on other projects.
The thing about reclassifying those other features as feats is that it creates the implication that they're all on the table as player choices, particularly now that they're dropping the idea that feats are expressly an option feature. Which was not the design intent when these things were made, they were designed as non-standard rewards a DM could offer or use as plot hooks. Plus a lot of them were designed to be temporary, so they'd need to rebalance the features if they're meant to become permanently accessible.
Honestly, I don't think D&D strictly needs a spell point system, and the current system really just makes low level casters more able to dominate with powerful effects while weakening high level casters to a notable degree, since they seemingly can only have a single slot per level per day for slot levels 6-9, as opposed to the two slots they could normally acquire for 6th and 7th level spells (though the text is a little fuzzy, which at the very least means the current description of the feature needs to be refined a bit). This ultimately like it would mostly just produce more spamming of spells like Fireball and Cone of Cold in combat as casters take advantage of the nova potential. So it's hypothetically more flexible, but ultimately seems to favor taking advantage of the ability to toss out more nukes per day than are currently available. A 5th level Wizard currently can get off 2 Fireballs per day (3 with AR, but I'm not clear on how that interacts with points, so let's just leave it out of the picture for this discussion) out of 9 available casts. At the same level a points Wizard could get off 5 per day and have a 1st level spell left over, for a total of 6 available casts.
The thing about this kind of "power pool" system is that it's usually implemented in a way where throwing a big punch produces some kind of cool-down effect (recast timers in MMO's, systems like Elder Scrolls using an ever-replenishing pool that needs to build back up, etc.), while the current spell point system has no check at all on sequential punches in the first half of the game short of outright emptying the tank, and nothing the current system doesn't already provide in the second. I honestly think they'd need to implement some kind of cool-down penalty to this to counter the nova potential (something they've already been moving to check in one or two classes in the UA), which would probably also stifle the "flexibility" the people who promote this system seem to desire. I dunno, just seems like this wouldn't actually "fix" things so much as create a whole other batch of problems, some of which look to me to be worse than the limits of a Vancian system. If it works for your table, more power to you, but I just don't think it's ready for mainstream without a serious overhaul, which again returns to the point that from a business perspective the marginal gains are unlikely to outweigh the marginal/opportunity costs of devoting resources to hashing this out instead of working on other projects.
I personally see spell points as being a mana pool by any other name that slowly replenishes over an 8 hour period, at at rare of:
p/8 rounded down.
Where p = your total spell point pool.
So, a level 1 and 2 character would only get back their spell point every 8 hours, or when they take a long rest, but by level 3, that same caster (who is getting more attuned to their magic, and more practiced its use) would regain 1 spell point every hour, allowing them to cast more spells per day.
It then becomes a balancing act for the spell caster, who can adapt their use of magic to fit the situation. Do they use up all their spell points in a few big hits, and then rely on their magical recovery they will get throughout the day as their magic replenishes itself, or do they cast low level spells, preserving their pool of magic and making it last longer.
As the character advances in character levels, they can then cast more spells, as their spell point pool replenishes quicker.
a level 6 character for example could cast 2 extra 1st level spells per hour, or 1 extra 2nd level spell every 2 hours.
Then the their magic totally replenishes itself over an 8 hour long rest, so they always start each day with a full pool of spell points.
This would replace the current spell slot system and arcane recovery feature.
Martials could keep up with magic items, potions etc. Such as “drink a potion and it gives you sudo magic abilities to cast a specific spell a limited number of times”. Or, “runes that can be attached to weapons, armour and other things that gives you passive magical abilities as long as you’re wearing that armour, using that weapon/item” and so on.
Clerics, Paladins and the likes would also get the spell point system, but they wouldn’t get the recovery feature, as their magic is granted to them by their God. They get given a set amount of magic per day, every morning when they do their preparation activities, and once they’ve used up their magic pool, they have to rely on their martial abilities (which would still be enhanced the same way as described above for full martial).
The whole thing makes magic much more flexible and useful to the world.
But it’s definitely not a Vancian system.
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
That's a very different system to the spell point system that we have in the Dungeon Master's Guide and a lot more challenging to track with pen and paper.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's a very different system to the spell point system that we have in the Dungeon Master's Guide and a lot more challenging to track with pen and paper.
Yes, true, I wasn’t saying my idea for the system was the official one, but even if DDB just let us use the official DMG spell point system, I think that would be a huge step to making magic feel better and less constrained within the game.
If spell points appear in the 2024 revised DMG as an optional variant, I'd believe they have plans to support it (though whether or not those plans would bear fruit is a separate question). If they're not in the 2024 revised DMG, then no, it'll definitely never happen.
I believe I recall that’s something they lamentably planned on dropping from the ‘24 DMG.
If spell points appear in the 2024 revised DMG as an optional variant, I'd believe they have plans to support it (though whether or not those plans would bear fruit is a separate question). If they're not in the 2024 revised DMG, then no, it'll definitely never happen.
I believe I recall that’s something they lamentably planned on dropping from the ‘24 DMG.
Oof! I hate it when they discontinue stuff. Where did they mention they were going to drop spell points? And did they mention dropping any other variant/optional rules?
I assume Epic Boons is safe since we saw that in the UA. I do not use additional optional ability scores, and I do not hear about them much either from other people nor UA, so I am not sure if they are keeping that. I hope variant rests, healing, and combat options stay, although I guess it is not a huge deal even if they remove them since their interaction with the character sheet is minimal or easy to simulate.
Spell points are a much different, far more complex system. Effectively it lets you cast more higher level spells, something anathema to the balance philosophy of D&D, while also allowing far more upcasting at a more graduated level.
Imagine a system where an area fire attack (fireball) is learned and not only can you spend more points to increase damage, but also to increase range, area of effect, and penetrative power (i..e. downgrading immunity and/or resistance). Such a major change requires whole new abilities (feats, class/subclass, etc.) not just for the PC's but for the characters. That is AFTER re-writing every single spell
More importantly it requires more thought by players both while choosing spells and when they are playing. Already Mages are the slowest of the players, imagine if they have to decide if they have enough points to cast the spell they want.
D&D is intentionally a simplification of realism. Point systems are a great idea for books and possibly for video games where the author/computer does the calculations for you. Not so much for D&D
If spell points appear in the 2024 revised DMG as an optional variant, I'd believe they have plans to support it (though whether or not those plans would bear fruit is a separate question). If they're not in the 2024 revised DMG, then no, it'll definitely never happen.
I believe I recall that’s something they lamentably planned on dropping from the ‘24 DMG.
Oof! I hate it when they discontinue stuff. Where did they mention they were going to drop spell points? And did they mention dropping any other variant/optional rules?
I assume Epic Boons is safe since we saw that in the UA. I do not use additional optional ability scores, and I do not hear about them much either from other people nor UA, so I am not sure if they are keeping that. I hope variant rests, healing, and combat options stay, although I guess it is not a huge deal even if they remove them since their interaction with the character sheet is minimal or easy to simulate.
I honestly cannot recall, but I think I remember someone saying that a lot of the optional rules from the DMG were either gonna be incorporated into the basic rules (like weapon masteries) or dropped altogether. The only reason it stuck in my mind was because I remember being disappointed since, IMHO, Spell Points is the best way to “fix” the sorcerer class. (Meaning I think everything else should still use spell slots, but sorcerers use spell points instead.) It really does seem to give sorcerers the extra oomph they so desperately seem to need.
A simple system would be you assign each spell level a value. Such as cantrips are worth 1/2, 1st level is worth 1 point 2nd worth 2 points and so on. Spell slots are converted the same way, 1st level equals one spell point 2nd 2 points and so on.
You can add your spell casting modifier and your proficiency bonus to your point total.
You gain back spell points at the rate of 1 per hour of rest, plus your casting modifier and proficiency bonus once each day. This might require a few days of rest at higher levels after spending all your spell points.
You know and learn spells the same way you already do.
A class not getting all features back on LR would be a pain to run in practice and would probably come off as a handicap on the party if the campaign has several days/LR’s with multiple encounters.
Plus it requires the DM to keep a much closer track of the passage of time than I’ve seen in most games.
Hi,
I am really falling out of love with spell slots and how inflexible they are. There’s an alternative point system for spell casters (this is official) as it’s not the default, DDB does not support it.
Will DDB ever support spell points instead of spell slots?
A points based system is much more flexible than spell slots.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Doubtful; they don’t have much support for things like the boons, insanity effects, and similar optional features from the DMG, short of the usual “homebrew a feat to apply the effect” which has its own limitations. Most likely they’ve had someone conduct an analysis and concluded that there’s not enough interest to be worth the time to design and implement such a system; at the end of the day this is a business, and they’re only going to start projects that will not only pay back the time invested, but that look to be more profitable than the other options. Getting into the bones of the character sheet for what is at least seen as a very niche part of the DMG doesn’t sound like a big earner.
The cynic inside of me says no. They've had years to do it, and haven't. That said, the biggest opportunity is coming up with the revamp for 1D&D. If it's going to happen, it'll happen this year or at the latest next year.
Personally, I feel like they should make the Sorceror default to spell points to further differentiate it - like they have with the Warlock.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
You can make a homebrew item with a number of charges on if equal to how many spell points, then use that to track your spell points on your character sheet. You can also add spells to the item to use those charges, so you can add your more common spells for more easy tracking.
I’ve been thinking about homebrewing a new spell caster class “Archivist” who basically uses their magic to interface with a magical archive, from which they can cast any stored spell using a spell points system.
Their magical archive also has its own health pool and soaks up damage until it breaks. Making the caster invulnerable to attack for a period of time (as long as their archive is active).
The downside is that having their archive active roots then to spot. If they move at all, it deactivates the archive.
The intent was to make them a support caster class that specialises in tactically managing the battle field, using their archive to research and share info with their allies, debuff the enemy and buff their friends. So they find a place where they can see the battlefield, activate their archive and stay there.
But I keep putting it off for several reasons.
1. I don’t know how well such a class would go down
2. It wouldn’t work with spell slots (only spell points)
3. I’m not that good at using the DDB homebrew creator
In the mean time though I’m getting really frustrated with how constrained spell slots seem to be making all the current official casters, and I’m generally falling out of love with them, and magic in general because it feels wrong.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
If spell points appear in the 2024 revised DMG as an optional variant, I'd believe they have plans to support it (though whether or not those plans would bear fruit is a separate question). If they're not in the 2024 revised DMG, then no, it'll definitely never happen.
I would not hold my breath. To me though, like high level adventures, it feels like the lack of popularity of spell points is more due to a lack of actual official support than lack of actual interest. Feats are entirely optional when 5e started, yet because there was enough support for it on Beyond, people actually used it and it does not feel like a niche option anymore. If spell point was supported in Beyond from the beginning, I do not think it would feel as niche as it is today.
Not sure if they are still working on the general features system to implement Epic Boons, Dark Gifts, and all that. Honestly, to save themselves some headache, it would probably be easier to just reclassify them all as feats so they can start implementing them.
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The thing about reclassifying those other features as feats is that it creates the implication that they're all on the table as player choices, particularly now that they're dropping the idea that feats are expressly an option feature. Which was not the design intent when these things were made, they were designed as non-standard rewards a DM could offer or use as plot hooks. Plus a lot of them were designed to be temporary, so they'd need to rebalance the features if they're meant to become permanently accessible.
Honestly, I don't think D&D strictly needs a spell point system, and the current system really just makes low level casters more able to dominate with powerful effects while weakening high level casters to a notable degree, since they seemingly can only have a single slot per level per day for slot levels 6-9, as opposed to the two slots they could normally acquire for 6th and 7th level spells (though the text is a little fuzzy, which at the very least means the current description of the feature needs to be refined a bit). This ultimately like it would mostly just produce more spamming of spells like Fireball and Cone of Cold in combat as casters take advantage of the nova potential. So it's hypothetically more flexible, but ultimately seems to favor taking advantage of the ability to toss out more nukes per day than are currently available. A 5th level Wizard currently can get off 2 Fireballs per day (3 with AR, but I'm not clear on how that interacts with points, so let's just leave it out of the picture for this discussion) out of 9 available casts. At the same level a points Wizard could get off 5 per day and have a 1st level spell left over, for a total of 6 available casts.
The thing about this kind of "power pool" system is that it's usually implemented in a way where throwing a big punch produces some kind of cool-down effect (recast timers in MMO's, systems like Elder Scrolls using an ever-replenishing pool that needs to build back up, etc.), while the current spell point system has no check at all on sequential punches in the first half of the game short of outright emptying the tank, and nothing the current system doesn't already provide in the second. I honestly think they'd need to implement some kind of cool-down penalty to this to counter the nova potential (something they've already been moving to check in one or two classes in the UA), which would probably also stifle the "flexibility" the people who promote this system seem to desire. I dunno, just seems like this wouldn't actually "fix" things so much as create a whole other batch of problems, some of which look to me to be worse than the limits of a Vancian system. If it works for your table, more power to you, but I just don't think it's ready for mainstream without a serious overhaul, which again returns to the point that from a business perspective the marginal gains are unlikely to outweigh the marginal/opportunity costs of devoting resources to hashing this out instead of working on other projects.
I personally see spell points as being a mana pool by any other name that slowly replenishes over an 8 hour period, at at rare of:
p/8 rounded down.
Where p = your total spell point pool.
So, a level 1 and 2 character would only get back their spell point every 8 hours, or when they take a long rest, but by level 3, that same caster (who is getting more attuned to their magic, and more practiced its use) would regain 1 spell point every hour, allowing them to cast more spells per day.
It then becomes a balancing act for the spell caster, who can adapt their use of magic to fit the situation. Do they use up all their spell points in a few big hits, and then rely on their magical recovery they will get throughout the day as their magic replenishes itself, or do they cast low level spells, preserving their pool of magic and making it last longer.
As the character advances in character levels, they can then cast more spells, as their spell point pool replenishes quicker.
a level 6 character for example could cast 2 extra 1st level spells per hour, or 1 extra 2nd level spell every 2 hours.
Then the their magic totally replenishes itself over an 8 hour long rest, so they always start each day with a full pool of spell points.
This would replace the current spell slot system and arcane recovery feature.
Martials could keep up with magic items, potions etc. Such as “drink a potion and it gives you sudo magic abilities to cast a specific spell a limited number of times”. Or, “runes that can be attached to weapons, armour and other things that gives you passive magical abilities as long as you’re wearing that armour, using that weapon/item” and so on.
Clerics, Paladins and the likes would also get the spell point system, but they wouldn’t get the recovery feature, as their magic is granted to them by their God. They get given a set amount of magic per day, every morning when they do their preparation activities, and once they’ve used up their magic pool, they have to rely on their martial abilities (which would still be enhanced the same way as described above for full martial).
The whole thing makes magic much more flexible and useful to the world.
But it’s definitely not a Vancian system.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
That's a very different system to the spell point system that we have in the Dungeon Master's Guide and a lot more challenging to track with pen and paper.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Yes, true, I wasn’t saying my idea for the system was the official one, but even if DDB just let us use the official DMG spell point system, I think that would be a huge step to making magic feel better and less constrained within the game.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
I believe I recall that’s something they lamentably planned on dropping from the ‘24 DMG.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Oof! I hate it when they discontinue stuff. Where did they mention they were going to drop spell points? And did they mention dropping any other variant/optional rules?
I assume Epic Boons is safe since we saw that in the UA. I do not use additional optional ability scores, and I do not hear about them much either from other people nor UA, so I am not sure if they are keeping that. I hope variant rests, healing, and combat options stay, although I guess it is not a huge deal even if they remove them since their interaction with the character sheet is minimal or easy to simulate.
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Running the Game by Matt Colville; Introduction: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-YZvLUXcR8 >
D&D with High School Students by Bill Allen; Season 1 Episode 1: < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52NJTUDokyk&t >
A spell point system makes it a different game.
In fact it might even be stepping into some other copyright area they do not want to play in.
Spell points are a much different, far more complex system. Effectively it lets you cast more higher level spells, something anathema to the balance philosophy of D&D, while also allowing far more upcasting at a more graduated level.
Imagine a system where an area fire attack (fireball) is learned and not only can you spend more points to increase damage, but also to increase range, area of effect, and penetrative power (i..e. downgrading immunity and/or resistance). Such a major change requires whole new abilities (feats, class/subclass, etc.) not just for the PC's but for the characters. That is AFTER re-writing every single spell
More importantly it requires more thought by players both while choosing spells and when they are playing. Already Mages are the slowest of the players, imagine if they have to decide if they have enough points to cast the spell they want.
D&D is intentionally a simplification of realism. Point systems are a great idea for books and possibly for video games where the author/computer does the calculations for you. Not so much for D&D
I honestly cannot recall, but I think I remember someone saying that a lot of the optional rules from the DMG were either gonna be incorporated into the basic rules (like weapon masteries) or dropped altogether. The only reason it stuck in my mind was because I remember being disappointed since, IMHO, Spell Points is the best way to “fix” the sorcerer class. (Meaning I think everything else should still use spell slots, but sorcerers use spell points instead.) It really does seem to give sorcerers the extra oomph they so desperately seem to need.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Metamagic already does something like spell points for filling in additional slots or trading up what you have.
A simple system would be you assign each spell level a value.
Such as cantrips are worth 1/2, 1st level is worth 1 point 2nd worth 2 points and so on.
Spell slots are converted the same way, 1st level equals one spell point 2nd 2 points and so on.
You can add your spell casting modifier and your proficiency bonus to your point total.
You gain back spell points at the rate of 1 per hour of rest, plus your casting modifier and proficiency bonus once each day.
This might require a few days of rest at higher levels after spending all your spell points.
You know and learn spells the same way you already do.
A class not getting all features back on LR would be a pain to run in practice and would probably come off as a handicap on the party if the campaign has several days/LR’s with multiple encounters.
Plus it requires the DM to keep a much closer track of the passage of time than I’ve seen in most games.
Mine was just a 15 minute idea.
the players can keep track of the time they rest.
I was more worried about keeping as much as possible the same without over balancing things.