So I guess I was under a rock and just learned about Sigil VTT. They seem to have altered the user experience of the campaign page so it popped up for me. I have been using DnD Beyond Maps to run my games. I read that when Sigil "launched" earlier this year it was unplayably slow.
I haven't personally played it, but from what I've heard it was pretty not great. They effectively just pulled the plug after putting what they had so far out there. So you've got what amounts to a pre-alpha build that's not really set up to play well with low-performance hardware, as I understand it.
Tried it, it's pretty terrible, and it does not appear that there are any clear plans for it going forward that I could find. I would venture to guess that its shutdown is imminent.
If you're looking for a 3d platform to run games, Talespire is exceptional. I used it for about two years, and it gets continual improvement with a ton of fan-supported content and integrations.
I have played around with it and its fine, beautiful to look at it, and has much promise. Still some ways to go, but it is in alpha only, so it was better then I expected. I have only used it for some special set pieces so far and that worked well. They are still working on it, but slowly, it doesnt seem to have high priority so far. That may change when maps is out of beta, I guess.
They’ve announced that this is all they are doing with it. Whats there is there, and they do not intend to develop it any further. Anything is possible, and they could always change their minds, but it seems very unlikely.
There is a lot of speculation about it all — internal power struggles between sigil and maps, higher ups not fully understanding what it was they were approving or what it was meant to be, etc. But there’s been no official word on why they pulled the plug, just that they did.
Given DDB's previous performance these features never leave the alpha or beta they are first launched in, they just hang on forever and are never officially done
It had potential to be pretty good. Probably the best VTT in terms of graphics and playability with D&D.
I don't know if this was down to the stage it was at and most VTTs progress like this, but they'd very much prioritised flash over substance. The graphics were brilliant, but the functionality was very poor. It's quite possible that's why it ended up crashing - doing brilliant graphics to impress higher ups, but it wasn't really in a playable state so when the bosses realised that there was still substantial work to be done just to get it to be launch ready even though there was a lot of money poured into it, they may have decided that it wasn't going to be worth it after all.
It's entirely possible in wrong about that, but it does make sense. As it is, I wouldn't use it over another VTT. The graphics are great, but the issues with how it ran would drive me nuts.
I might be wrong, but it's possible.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I haven't personally played it, but from what I've heard it was pretty not great. They effectively just pulled the plug after putting what they had so far out there. So you've got what amounts to a pre-alpha build that's not really set up to play well with low-performance hardware, as I understand it.
This is it.
I will say that my experience with it as far as testing goes had been pretty good. The tools were neat and it looks pretty nice. That said, some people noted that it had very long load time, which I had not experienced at all until the most recent update. I was originally getting in within 10 seconds consistently, but I tried it yesterday just to see what the new update offered and it took 40 seconds to load a map from the start screen.
I think it had potential to replace other 3D options and probably could have gotten by with a Master Tier+ sub or something, but the upfront costs for it must have broken the project's back.
It had potential to be pretty good. Probably the best VTT in terms of graphics and playability with D&D.
I don't know if this was down to the stage it was at and most VTTs progress like this, but they'd very much prioritised flash over substance. The graphics were brilliant, but the functionality was very poor. It's quite possible that's why it ended up crashing - doing brilliant graphics to impress higher ups, but it wasn't really in a playable state so when the bosses realised that there was still substantial work to be done just to get it to be launch ready even though there was a lot of money poured into it, they may have decided that it wasn't going to be worth it after all.
It's entirely possible in wrong about that, but it does make sense. As it is, I wouldn't use it over another VTT. The graphics are great, but the issues with how it ran would drive me nuts.
I might be wrong, but it's possible.
Building on this, I think its graphics were what made it doomed from the start.
Sigil is fairly graphics intensive - it requires a dedicated gaming graphics unit to function, and an RTX 2080 or equivalent graphics card just to meet the recommended specs. Not the most modern components in the world, but still more advanced than the average laptop or tablet can function at. And, because this is a multiplayer game, that means everyone in your party needs to not only own a computer with a dedicated GPU, but they must want to play with it. If one player does not meet those criteria, the entire group will find another system.
Their focus on graphics was… questionable. Skyrim-level graphics (which can run in modern integrated graphics cards) would likely have been more than sufficient and far less likely to disqualify entire groups.
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
Where did they announce, they are done with Sigil? I might have missed it, but I couldnt find anything on the official VTT discord. Instead there are still updates ever so often, often fixing bugs users have pointed out. So I would say my comment "They are still working on it" still stands.
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
^^^ This
If they had just stuck to making it into a VTT like the Maps tool - but 3D - it would have been great. Or at least, the kind of thing that I like playing around with (I can understand other people's worries that it would have taken a relatively long time or a lot of effort to come up with maps).
Instead its like they tried to turn it into some kind of video game RPG, trying to build in the rules of D&D in a way that simply didn't make sense when used by an actual real-life human DM and players!
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
^^^ This
If they had just stuck to making it into a VTT like the Maps tool - but 3D - it would have been great. Or at least, the kind of thing that I like playing around with (I can understand other people's worries that it would have taken a relatively long time or a lot of effort to come up with maps).
Instead its like they tried to turn it into some kind of video game RPG, trying to build in the rules of D&D in a way that simply didn't make sense when used by an actual real-life human DM and players!
Did they? From what I have seen in Sigil in its present state it tries to do 2 things: 1. Be a beautiful 3d VTT and 2. Be a 3d map builder. Some VTTs have more automation then others, I dont see a particular focus on that in Sigil.
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
^^^ This
If they had just stuck to making it into a VTT like the Maps tool - but 3D - it would have been great. Or at least, the kind of thing that I like playing around with (I can understand other people's worries that it would have taken a relatively long time or a lot of effort to come up with maps).
Instead its like they tried to turn it into some kind of video game RPG, trying to build in the rules of D&D in a way that simply didn't make sense when used by an actual real-life human DM and players!
Did they? From what I have seen in Sigil in its present state it tries to do 2 things: 1. Be a beautiful 3d VTT and 2. Be a 3d map builder. Some VTTs have more automation then others, I dont see a particular focus on that in Sigil.
This is just going by my playtest experience.
I didn't like how you had to 'import' characters from DnD Beyond and then only see the stats in a tiny horrible UI (which listed all items and abilities as little icons you had to hover over to see what they were).
And when a player clicked to attack or fire a spell, it didn't just roll the dice. It also automatically determined if you hit and applied the damage. For area effects it would automatically determine who was affected, roll the saves and apply the damage.
Like a video game. Except this isn't a video game.
There was no easy way for me as the DM to override any of this 'automatic' functionality. E.g. When one of my players declared they were hiding behind a barrel, I gave them half-cover from an archer. Except there was no way of specifying this or giving a penalty to the archer's attack. So I just had to click the button and see what it rolled and, if it hit (and automatically deducted the HP) determine if that was actually a miss due to cover so the player could add back their HP.
It was very awkward! I just wanted the players to be able to roll their attack and for ME to say whether it hit or not (so I could take cover etc into account), then the players could roll their damage so I could adjust the monster's HP. Yes, more work for me but that's no different to pen-and-paper. I didn't like how Sigil tried to be a video game and do all the calculations for you, preventing 'bespoke' adjustments.
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
^^^ This
If they had just stuck to making it into a VTT like the Maps tool - but 3D - it would have been great. Or at least, the kind of thing that I like playing around with (I can understand other people's worries that it would have taken a relatively long time or a lot of effort to come up with maps).
Instead its like they tried to turn it into some kind of video game RPG, trying to build in the rules of D&D in a way that simply didn't make sense when used by an actual real-life human DM and players!
Did they? From what I have seen in Sigil in its present state it tries to do 2 things: 1. Be a beautiful 3d VTT and 2. Be a 3d map builder. Some VTTs have more automation then others, I dont see a particular focus on that in Sigil.
This is just going by my playtest experience.
I didn't like how you had to 'import' characters from DnD Beyond and then only see the stats in a tiny horrible UI (which listed all items and abilities as little icons you had to hover over to see what they were).
And when a player clicked to attack or fire a spell, it didn't just roll the dice. It also automatically determined if you hit and applied the damage. For area effects it would automatically determine who was affected, roll the saves and apply the damage.
Like a video game. Except this isn't a video game.
There was no easy way for me as the DM to override any of this 'automatic' functionality. E.g. When one of my players declared they were hiding behind a barrel, I gave them half-cover from an archer. Except there was no way of specifying this or giving a penalty to the archer's attack. So I just had to click the button and see what it rolled and, if it hit (and automatically deducted the HP) determine if that was actually a miss due to cover so the player could add back their HP.
It was very awkward! I just wanted the players to be able to roll their attack and for ME to say whether it hit or not (so I could take cover etc into account), then the players could roll their damage so I could adjust the monster's HP. Yes, more work for me but that's no different to pen-and-paper. I didn't like how Sigil tried to be a video game and do all the calculations for you, preventing 'bespoke' adjustments.
It’s funny you say that, it’s basically what I remember hearing some of the WotC people say. They found that the more they automated it, the less people liked it. To the point that at the end, they were planning to make it system agnostic. Basically like digital dwarven forge.
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
^^^ This
If they had just stuck to making it into a VTT like the Maps tool - but 3D - it would have been great. Or at least, the kind of thing that I like playing around with (I can understand other people's worries that it would have taken a relatively long time or a lot of effort to come up with maps).
Instead its like they tried to turn it into some kind of video game RPG, trying to build in the rules of D&D in a way that simply didn't make sense when used by an actual real-life human DM and players!
Did they? From what I have seen in Sigil in its present state it tries to do 2 things: 1. Be a beautiful 3d VTT and 2. Be a 3d map builder. Some VTTs have more automation then others, I dont see a particular focus on that in Sigil.
This is just going by my playtest experience.
I didn't like how you had to 'import' characters from DnD Beyond and then only see the stats in a tiny horrible UI (which listed all items and abilities as little icons you had to hover over to see what they were).
And when a player clicked to attack or fire a spell, it didn't just roll the dice. It also automatically determined if you hit and applied the damage. For area effects it would automatically determine who was affected, roll the saves and apply the damage.
Like a video game. Except this isn't a video game.
There was no easy way for me as the DM to override any of this 'automatic' functionality. E.g. When one of my players declared they were hiding behind a barrel, I gave them half-cover from an archer. Except there was no way of specifying this or giving a penalty to the archer's attack. So I just had to click the button and see what it rolled and, if it hit (and automatically deducted the HP) determine if that was actually a miss due to cover so the player could add back their HP.
It was very awkward! I just wanted the players to be able to roll their attack and for ME to say whether it hit or not (so I could take cover etc into account), then the players could roll their damage so I could adjust the monster's HP. Yes, more work for me but that's no different to pen-and-paper. I didn't like how Sigil tried to be a video game and do all the calculations for you, preventing 'bespoke' adjustments.
Oh yeah, I get that. When we tried it, we just used our beyond character sheets and used Sigil mostly for positioning minis in the terrain. Its just that people want diffrent things from a VTT. I have heard players praise Foundry or Fantasy Grounds exactly for that kind of thing you and I dont like, still noone would say those are video games. Hard for the designers to tell whats best for the majority, also because that may change while the stuff is still in development. I do agree I would like to see Sigil remain not very automated personally, maybe even tied to beyond characters and the beyond campaign log like maps. I do like the engine for the graphics though and think its a good choice for the future. Its not enough to replicate what other 3D VTTs already can do. You have to aim a bit higher then that to be competitive.
It’s funny you say that, it’s basically what I remember hearing some of the WotC people say. They found that the more they automated it, the less people liked it. To the point that at the end, they were planning to make it system agnostic. Basically like digital dwarven forge.
I think automation is great, but the issue is that often the automation comes at the cost of assumptions of how we want to resolve things. When we wander away from those assumptions (which is, fundamentally why we're playing D&D rather than, say, an MMO or a coop game - so we're not bound by those assumptions), we need a quick, easy and intuitive way to inform the computer of the change so it can resolve it the way we want.
The issue is that if it doesn't have that, it stops being an assistant helping us play the game and starts being a referee trying to force us to play the game the way the designers think it should be played. That's what people are pushing back on.
Automation is great. It's a necessary part of being a VTT or a toolset like DDB, or I wouldn't bother with it. But they also have to keep the purpose in mind that it's meant to be a tool, not a referee or policeman and design it accordingly. That's certainly challenging, but it's also their job and sometimes I think they forget that.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Another issue it had that I didn’t see anyone bring up was the fact that it only ran on Windows so if somebody in your group had a Mac they were S.O.L.
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So I guess I was under a rock and just learned about Sigil VTT. They seem to have altered the user experience of the campaign page so it popped up for me. I have been using DnD Beyond Maps to run my games. I read that when Sigil "launched" earlier this year it was unplayably slow.
Is Sigil actually bad?
I haven't personally played it, but from what I've heard it was pretty not great. They effectively just pulled the plug after putting what they had so far out there. So you've got what amounts to a pre-alpha build that's not really set up to play well with low-performance hardware, as I understand it.
Tried it, it's pretty terrible, and it does not appear that there are any clear plans for it going forward that I could find. I would venture to guess that its shutdown is imminent.
If you're looking for a 3d platform to run games, Talespire is exceptional. I used it for about two years, and it gets continual improvement with a ton of fan-supported content and integrations.
I have played around with it and its fine, beautiful to look at it, and has much promise. Still some ways to go, but it is in alpha only, so it was better then I expected. I have only used it for some special set pieces so far and that worked well. They are still working on it, but slowly, it doesnt seem to have high priority so far. That may change when maps is out of beta, I guess.
They’ve announced that this is all they are doing with it. Whats there is there, and they do not intend to develop it any further. Anything is possible, and they could always change their minds, but it seems very unlikely.
There is a lot of speculation about it all — internal power struggles between sigil and maps, higher ups not fully understanding what it was they were approving or what it was meant to be, etc. But there’s been no official word on why they pulled the plug, just that they did.
Given DDB's previous performance these features never leave the alpha or beta they are first launched in, they just hang on forever and are never officially done
They're not, though. They've publicly announced that development on it has been discontinued.
pronouns: he/she/they
I downloaded a d played with it.
It had potential to be pretty good. Probably the best VTT in terms of graphics and playability with D&D.
I don't know if this was down to the stage it was at and most VTTs progress like this, but they'd very much prioritised flash over substance. The graphics were brilliant, but the functionality was very poor. It's quite possible that's why it ended up crashing - doing brilliant graphics to impress higher ups, but it wasn't really in a playable state so when the bosses realised that there was still substantial work to be done just to get it to be launch ready even though there was a lot of money poured into it, they may have decided that it wasn't going to be worth it after all.
It's entirely possible in wrong about that, but it does make sense. As it is, I wouldn't use it over another VTT. The graphics are great, but the issues with how it ran would drive me nuts.
I might be wrong, but it's possible.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is it.
I will say that my experience with it as far as testing goes had been pretty good. The tools were neat and it looks pretty nice. That said, some people noted that it had very long load time, which I had not experienced at all until the most recent update. I was originally getting in within 10 seconds consistently, but I tried it yesterday just to see what the new update offered and it took 40 seconds to load a map from the start screen.
I think it had potential to replace other 3D options and probably could have gotten by with a Master Tier+ sub or something, but the upfront costs for it must have broken the project's back.
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Building on this, I think its graphics were what made it doomed from the start.
Sigil is fairly graphics intensive - it requires a dedicated gaming graphics unit to function, and an RTX 2080 or equivalent graphics card just to meet the recommended specs. Not the most modern components in the world, but still more advanced than the average laptop or tablet can function at. And, because this is a multiplayer game, that means everyone in your party needs to not only own a computer with a dedicated GPU, but they must want to play with it. If one player does not meet those criteria, the entire group will find another system.
Their focus on graphics was… questionable. Skyrim-level graphics (which can run in modern integrated graphics cards) would likely have been more than sufficient and far less likely to disqualify entire groups.
There have been reports from people who worked on it that the executives were trying to replicate the success of Baldur's Gate 3 with something built in-house, and they didn't really understand the distinction between that and a VTT tool. The focus on high-tech graphics might have been a result of that.
pronouns: he/she/they
Where did they announce, they are done with Sigil? I might have missed it, but I couldnt find anything on the official VTT discord. Instead there are still updates ever so often, often fixing bugs users have pointed out. So I would say my comment "They are still working on it" still stands.
^^^ This
If they had just stuck to making it into a VTT like the Maps tool - but 3D - it would have been great. Or at least, the kind of thing that I like playing around with (I can understand other people's worries that it would have taken a relatively long time or a lot of effort to come up with maps).
Instead its like they tried to turn it into some kind of video game RPG, trying to build in the rules of D&D in a way that simply didn't make sense when used by an actual real-life human DM and players!
Did they? From what I have seen in Sigil in its present state it tries to do 2 things: 1. Be a beautiful 3d VTT and 2. Be a 3d map builder. Some VTTs have more automation then others, I dont see a particular focus on that in Sigil.
This is just going by my playtest experience.
I didn't like how you had to 'import' characters from DnD Beyond and then only see the stats in a tiny horrible UI (which listed all items and abilities as little icons you had to hover over to see what they were).
And when a player clicked to attack or fire a spell, it didn't just roll the dice. It also automatically determined if you hit and applied the damage. For area effects it would automatically determine who was affected, roll the saves and apply the damage.
Like a video game. Except this isn't a video game.
There was no easy way for me as the DM to override any of this 'automatic' functionality. E.g. When one of my players declared they were hiding behind a barrel, I gave them half-cover from an archer. Except there was no way of specifying this or giving a penalty to the archer's attack. So I just had to click the button and see what it rolled and, if it hit (and automatically deducted the HP) determine if that was actually a miss due to cover so the player could add back their HP.
It was very awkward! I just wanted the players to be able to roll their attack and for ME to say whether it hit or not (so I could take cover etc into account), then the players could roll their damage so I could adjust the monster's HP. Yes, more work for me but that's no different to pen-and-paper. I didn't like how Sigil tried to be a video game and do all the calculations for you, preventing 'bespoke' adjustments.
It’s funny you say that, it’s basically what I remember hearing some of the WotC people say. They found that the more they automated it, the less people liked it. To the point that at the end, they were planning to make it system agnostic. Basically like digital dwarven forge.
Oh yeah, I get that. When we tried it, we just used our beyond character sheets and used Sigil mostly for positioning minis in the terrain. Its just that people want diffrent things from a VTT. I have heard players praise Foundry or Fantasy Grounds exactly for that kind of thing you and I dont like, still noone would say those are video games. Hard for the designers to tell whats best for the majority, also because that may change while the stuff is still in development. I do agree I would like to see Sigil remain not very automated personally, maybe even tied to beyond characters and the beyond campaign log like maps. I do like the engine for the graphics though and think its a good choice for the future. Its not enough to replicate what other 3D VTTs already can do. You have to aim a bit higher then that to be competitive.
I think automation is great, but the issue is that often the automation comes at the cost of assumptions of how we want to resolve things. When we wander away from those assumptions (which is, fundamentally why we're playing D&D rather than, say, an MMO or a coop game - so we're not bound by those assumptions), we need a quick, easy and intuitive way to inform the computer of the change so it can resolve it the way we want.
The issue is that if it doesn't have that, it stops being an assistant helping us play the game and starts being a referee trying to force us to play the game the way the designers think it should be played. That's what people are pushing back on.
Automation is great. It's a necessary part of being a VTT or a toolset like DDB, or I wouldn't bother with it. But they also have to keep the purpose in mind that it's meant to be a tool, not a referee or policeman and design it accordingly. That's certainly challenging, but it's also their job and sometimes I think they forget that.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Is it bad? Good question. I haven't been able to get it to work. No idea. They should make a video for it.
Another issue it had that I didn’t see anyone bring up was the fact that it only ran on Windows so if somebody in your group had a Mac they were S.O.L.