This new lineage idea, does it make room for races which are biologically superior or inferior in some way?
I’m sorry, but it is incredulous to assert that a 3 1/2ft tall, 40 lb (when soaking wet) halfling race has the same strength spread as 1/2 Orcs. And even though much Dwarf strength comes from culture, it is absurd to simply deny the affect of evolution on attributes.
From a group perspective, you're correct. The new lineage idea, however, applies to adventurers, not to the races as a whole. Will halflings in general be as strong as half-orcs in general? No, as is reflected in their NPC stats. Could a halfling adventurer be stronger than a half-orc adventurer? Depending on their upbringing, lives, and specific skills (which the lineage is supposed to represent) than it is completely possible.
From a group perspective, you're correct. The new lineage idea, however, applies to adventurers, not to the races as a whole. Will halflings in general be as strong as half-orcs in general? No, as is reflected in their NPC stats. Could a halfling adventurer be stronger than a half-orc adventurer? Depending on their upbringing, lives, and specific skills (which the lineage is supposed to represent) than it is completely possible.
Sorry, but barring something like the 1/2 Orc having osteogenesis imperfects or innate magic it isn’t possible. You can twist physics only so far.
This new lineage idea, does it make room for races which are biologically superior or inferior in some way?
I’m sorry, but it is incredulous to assert that a 3 1/2ft tall, 40 lb (when soaking wet) halfling race has the same strength spread as 1/2 Orcs. And even though much Dwarf strength comes from culture, it is absurd to simply deny the affect of evolution on attributes.
This isn't anything new.
Even with Point Buy starting and normal racial mods, you can get to 20 STR as a Halfling using ASIs , matching any Half-Orc or full Orc, or Dwarf, or Luxodon or whatever, that did the same.
A level 20 Halfling Barb will have 24 STR , outmatching any Orc/Half-Orc/Whatever non-Barb who would be stuck at 20 STR max.
And then Magic Items can give more strength.. And so on.
All within the rules found in PHB.
So I'm really not sure what the issue is, here?
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Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
You are completely correct. But unfortunately you are too far into the homogenization of the game. It is also incredulous to give every race/culture access to every class and subclass in the game as well. But just as in World of Warcraft where any race can be any class, so to win DnD 5e the class and ability restrictions have been removed. But even so the greatest differences between races it Is only a -2 to ability scores.
So ultimately there wouldn't be that big difference between characters unless you homebrew greater deviations into your world. Which is something as a DM you are completely within your Power to alter.
But just as in World of Warcraft where any race can be any class,
Umm.... since when? Last I checked (december of 2020), orcs still couldn't be paladins, only elves can be demon hunters, and their tiefling-like draenei can't be warlocks. Classes were very much race-locked.
Regardless of ability bonuses, all races are superior to others in some way (and thus inferior in others). Aarakocra have wings, Dragonborn have a breath weapon, Halflings are lucky, etc, etc. I don't see the point of floating ASIs in that regard. For me there's no fundamental difference between Tieflings being charismatic and Half-Elves being versatile or Gnomes being intelligent and Elves having acute senses. I get that players might find it annoying if their druid or cleric doesn't get a Wisdom bonus, but presumably they should then also be annoyed their rogue doesn't have Darkvision, their sorcerer lacks resistances or their fighter doesn't enjoy Relentless Endurance.
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Even with Point Buy starting and normal racial mods, you can get to 20 STR as a Halfling using ASIs , matching any Half-Orc or full Orc, or Dwarf, or Luxodon or whatever, that did the same.
This is true, and it should be that way. With ASIs.
However, normally the Halfling barbarian would have to use more ASIs to get up to that 20 STR than a Half-Orc would. This also makes sense. What the Half-Orc gets partially from nature/biology, the halfling can match, but only with additional training.
But that's not what Wizards wants to be true anymore, nor, apparently, the majority of their current target audience (or at least the most vocal ones, anyway), and so it is no longer baked into the game that a halfling would have to overcome with training the small physical advantage a half-orc would have "by nature" -- since it's the "by nature" part that has everyone's hackles up.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Even with Point Buy starting and normal racial mods, you can get to 20 STR as a Halfling using ASIs , matching any Half-Orc or full Orc, or Dwarf, or Luxodon or whatever, that did the same.
This is true, and it should be that way. With ASIs.
However, normally the Halfling barbarian would have to use more ASIs to get up to that 20 STR than a Half-Orc would. This also makes sense. What the Half-Orc gets partially from nature/biology, the halfling can match, but only with additional training.
But that's not what Wizards wants to be true anymore, nor, apparently, the majority of their current target audience (or at least the most vocal ones, anyway), and so it is no longer baked into the game that a halfling would have to overcome with training the small physical advantage a half-orc would have "by nature" -- since it's the "by nature" part that has everyone's hackles up.
Apparently, "nature" does not exist in D&D.The designers of D&D never watched a 180 pound corner back try to tackle a 240 pound running back, compared to a 300 pound guard try to tackle the same running back.
Of course there is no way a Halfling has the same "absolute" strength of a creature that weighs 6 to 8 times more. "Relative" strength, sure, that makes sense. A 40 pound Str 20 Halfling deadlifting 4 times its body weight, while a 240 pound 16 Str Half-Orc only deadlifting 3 times its bodyweight is totally reasonable. But to suggest that the 40 pound 20 Str halfling can deadlift 720 pounds is beyond ludicrous. Unfortunately, basic bio-mechanics and physics are too much for WOTC and a certain percentage of their very vocal customer base to deal with.
Now, if WOTC had come out years ago and said, "Look, we make certain abstractions in the game because the complexity of incorporating actual science into the game makes the rules way too dense", that would be understandable. But I know I face it every game day when I have to try to balance the encumbrance issues of my 8 Str Halfling wearing 13 pound studded leather that weighs the same as studded leather for a 6 foot tall creature. Don't even get me started on some 15 Str Halfling wearing Plate Armour almost twice its bodyweight.
I’d like to clarify and focus my objection in response to JoeltheWalrus’ post (which I won’t quote here due to its length).
I am both a creative writer and have a degree in Anthropology (as an aside, yes, I’m aware my grammar sucks). As a creative writer, I support the use of tropes. I also enjoy subverting or ignoring those tropes. So, I have no problem with PCs being exceptions to the standard in some ways, but not all. As someone trained in anthropology, I appreciate the distinction WotC plans to make between culture and species.
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
What we need to keep in mind is that DnD is set in fantasy worlds where magic and the supernatural exist. Sure your typical halfling don't have a chance in hell lifting 200 lbs normally. But we don't find halflings in the real world do we? And what if that 15 Str halfling got that strong because he or she was blessed with supernatural strength by a nature spirit or something? The most important thing is having a good backstory that supports your characters stats and alignment. Normal physics don't need to apply in a fantasy world of magic.
What we need to keep in mind is that DnD is set in fantasy worlds where magic and the supernatural exist. Sure your typical halfling don't have a chance in hell lifting 200 lbs normally. But we don't find halflings in the real world do we? And what if that 15 Str halfling got that strong because he or she was blessed with supernatural strength by a nature spirit or something? The most important thing is having a good backstory that supports your characters stats and alignment. Normal physics don't need to apply in a fantasy world of magic.
So, every 1/2ling (but only if they are PCs) are blessed by the gods to be as strong as 1/2 Orcs?
I’d like to clarify and focus my objection in response to JoeltheWalrus’ post (which I won’t quote here due to its length).
I am both a creative writer and have a degree in Anthropology (as an aside, yes, I’m aware my grammar sucks). As a creative writer, I support the use of tropes. I also enjoy subverting or ignoring those tropes. So, I have no problem with PCs being exceptions to the standard in some ways, but not all. As someone trained in anthropology, I appreciate the distinction WotC plans to make between culture and species.
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
The intent in my post was not to refute any of your arguments; it was instead to show the futility of this debate. The argument that you make has been made at least a half dozen times, and it really hasn't changed anything. Every thread on this topic has been locked, and it often descends into personal attacks and fallacies.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
What we need to keep in mind is that DnD is set in fantasy worlds where magic and the supernatural exist. Sure your typical halfling don't have a chance in hell lifting 200 lbs normally. But we don't find halflings in the real world do we? And what if that 15 Str halfling got that strong because he or she was blessed with supernatural strength by a nature spirit or something? The most important thing is having a good backstory that supports your characters stats and alignment. Normal physics don't need to apply in a fantasy world of magic.
So, every 1/2ling (but only if they are PCs) are blessed by the gods to be as strong as 1/2 Orcs?
I'm only saying that could be a possible answer as to why a 15 or more Str halfling get their inhuman strength. Now obviously not everyone who plays a halfling is going for a Str based halfling now are they? And what is wrong with PCs being blessed by the gods? Most characters I play (if they can avoid a premature death) end up being a famous hero of note. Whats so weird about the gods blessing potential legends?
What we need to keep in mind is that DnD is set in fantasy worlds where magic and the supernatural exist. Sure your typical halfling don't have a chance in hell lifting 200 lbs normally. But we don't find halflings in the real world do we? And what if that 15 Str halfling got that strong because he or she was blessed with supernatural strength by a nature spirit or something? The most important thing is having a good backstory that supports your characters stats and alignment. Normal physics don't need to apply in a fantasy world of magic.
So, every 1/2ling (but only if they are PCs) are blessed by the gods to be as strong as 1/2 Orcs?
I'm only saying that could be a possible answer as to why a 15 or more Str halfling get their inhuman strength. Now obviously not everyone who plays a halfling is going for a Str based halfling now are they? And what is wrong with PCs being blessed by the gods? Most characters I play (if they can avoid a premature death) end up being a famous hero of note. Whats so weird about the gods blessing potential legends?
Absolutely nothing that I can think of is wrong with a 1/2ling PC having higher than average strength (for 1/2lings) because they are blessed by the gods. But, that should be an exception within an exception, I wrote earlier that science should be expected to hold true unless there is a stated reason otherwise.
The spread of PC 1/2ling strength should be lower than that of PC 1/2 Orc strength. If a specific PC 1/2llng happens to be blessed by the gods with greater strength, then that should be possible just as it should be possible for a specific 1/2ling to be blessed by the gods with dark vision. Your DM should be happy to work with you to make that happen (maybe -2 to Wisdom and +2 to Strength, like Hercules and Samson, on top of all other modifiers).
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
Your half orc can swing heavy weapons around without penalty, the halfling can't.
Your half orc can grapple Large creatures, the halfling can't.
The mechanics are there, they're just not where you want them to be.
As others have mentioned, this argument has already been beaten to death. If you don't like the rule, don't include it in your game. But stop trying to argue that I shouldn't be able to include it in my game.
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
stop trying to argue that I shouldn't be able to include it in my game.
I never argued that you shouldn’t be able to include whatever you want in your game.
I shouldn’t have to give you my permission to play your game however you want, but if you need that kind of affirmation, then know that I support you including whatever you want, no matter how ridiculous it is - gelatinous cubes as PCs, races not getting ability score adjustments, Mind Flayers hosting Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, etc.
What we need to keep in mind is that DnD is set in fantasy worlds where magic and the supernatural exist. Sure your typical halfling don't have a chance in hell lifting 200 lbs normally. But we don't find halflings in the real world do we? And what if that 15 Str halfling got that strong because he or she was blessed with supernatural strength by a nature spirit or something? The most important thing is having a good backstory that supports your characters stats and alignment. Normal physics don't need to apply in a fantasy world of magic.
So, every 1/2ling (but only if they are PCs) are blessed by the gods to be as strong as 1/2 Orcs?
I'm only saying that could be a possible answer as to why a 15 or more Str halfling get their inhuman strength. Now obviously not everyone who plays a halfling is going for a Str based halfling now are they? And what is wrong with PCs being blessed by the gods? Most characters I play (if they can avoid a premature death) end up being a famous hero of note. Whats so weird about the gods blessing potential legends?
Hmmmm....so I guess the gods like Halflings more than Half-Orc's, because we never hear of Half-Orc's being blessed with supernatural strength relative to their species, where this Half-Orc touched by a god would out their starting strength at 22.
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This new lineage idea, does it make room for races which are biologically superior or inferior in some way?
I’m sorry, but it is incredulous to assert that a 3 1/2ft tall, 40 lb (when soaking wet) halfling race has the same strength spread as 1/2 Orcs. And even though much Dwarf strength comes from culture, it is absurd to simply deny the affect of evolution on attributes.
From a group perspective, you're correct. The new lineage idea, however, applies to adventurers, not to the races as a whole. Will halflings in general be as strong as half-orcs in general? No, as is reflected in their NPC stats. Could a halfling adventurer be stronger than a half-orc adventurer? Depending on their upbringing, lives, and specific skills (which the lineage is supposed to represent) than it is completely possible.
Sorry, but barring something like the 1/2 Orc having osteogenesis imperfects or innate magic it isn’t possible. You can twist physics only so far.
This isn't anything new.
Even with Point Buy starting and normal racial mods, you can get to 20 STR as a Halfling using ASIs , matching any Half-Orc or full Orc, or Dwarf, or Luxodon or whatever, that did the same.
A level 20 Halfling Barb will have 24 STR , outmatching any Orc/Half-Orc/Whatever non-Barb who would be stuck at 20 STR max.
And then Magic Items can give more strength.. And so on.
All within the rules found in PHB.
So I'm really not sure what the issue is, here?
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
You are completely correct. But unfortunately you are too far into the homogenization of the game. It is also incredulous to give every race/culture access to every class and subclass in the game as well. But just as in World of Warcraft where any race can be any class, so to win DnD 5e the class and ability restrictions have been removed. But even so the greatest differences between races it Is only a -2 to ability scores.
So ultimately there wouldn't be that big difference between characters unless you homebrew greater deviations into your world. Which is something as a DM you are completely within your Power to alter.
Umm.... since when? Last I checked (december of 2020), orcs still couldn't be paladins, only elves can be demon hunters, and their tiefling-like draenei can't be warlocks. Classes were very much race-locked.
Regardless of ability bonuses, all races are superior to others in some way (and thus inferior in others). Aarakocra have wings, Dragonborn have a breath weapon, Halflings are lucky, etc, etc. I don't see the point of floating ASIs in that regard. For me there's no fundamental difference between Tieflings being charismatic and Half-Elves being versatile or Gnomes being intelligent and Elves having acute senses. I get that players might find it annoying if their druid or cleric doesn't get a Wisdom bonus, but presumably they should then also be annoyed their rogue doesn't have Darkvision, their sorcerer lacks resistances or their fighter doesn't enjoy Relentless Endurance.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
This is true, and it should be that way. With ASIs.
However, normally the Halfling barbarian would have to use more ASIs to get up to that 20 STR than a Half-Orc would. This also makes sense. What the Half-Orc gets partially from nature/biology, the halfling can match, but only with additional training.
But that's not what Wizards wants to be true anymore, nor, apparently, the majority of their current target audience (or at least the most vocal ones, anyway), and so it is no longer baked into the game that a halfling would have to overcome with training the small physical advantage a half-orc would have "by nature" -- since it's the "by nature" part that has everyone's hackles up.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Wow, so surprising. Before this becomes a flame war, you might want to read some of these threads were this topic has been discussed to undeath.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/96326-no-more-normal-races
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/95854-design-direction-changes-for-race-in-d-d-5e
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/87895-are-there-better-terms-for-dwarf-or-halfling
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/89377-sparing-goblins-and-other-humanoids-is-perfectly
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/89363-sparing-goblins-and-other-humanoids-is-idiotic
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/88161-tashas-art-drow-are-silver-now
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/57787-racial-tension-in-d-d
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/79185-tashas-cauldron-of-everything-and-d-d-celebration
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/82006-is-d-d-really-going-woke
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/76800-racism-in-dnd-games
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/79302-dungeons-dragons-next-book-will-offer-an
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/73103-races-and-species
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/77195-dungeons-and-dragons-to-remove-the-term-race
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/72612-venting-about-d-d-and-diversity-controversy
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/72763-dear-wotc-maybe-you-might-start-with-your
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Apparently, "nature" does not exist in D&D.The designers of D&D never watched a 180 pound corner back try to tackle a 240 pound running back, compared to a 300 pound guard try to tackle the same running back.
Of course there is no way a Halfling has the same "absolute" strength of a creature that weighs 6 to 8 times more. "Relative" strength, sure, that makes sense. A 40 pound Str 20 Halfling deadlifting 4 times its body weight, while a 240 pound 16 Str Half-Orc only deadlifting 3 times its bodyweight is totally reasonable. But to suggest that the 40 pound 20 Str halfling can deadlift 720 pounds is beyond ludicrous. Unfortunately, basic bio-mechanics and physics are too much for WOTC and a certain percentage of their very vocal customer base to deal with.
Now, if WOTC had come out years ago and said, "Look, we make certain abstractions in the game because the complexity of incorporating actual science into the game makes the rules way too dense", that would be understandable. But I know I face it every game day when I have to try to balance the encumbrance issues of my 8 Str Halfling wearing 13 pound studded leather that weighs the same as studded leather for a 6 foot tall creature. Don't even get me started on some 15 Str Halfling wearing Plate Armour almost twice its bodyweight.
I’d like to clarify and focus my objection in response to JoeltheWalrus’ post (which I won’t quote here due to its length).
I am both a creative writer and have a degree in Anthropology (as an aside, yes, I’m aware my grammar sucks). As a creative writer, I support the use of tropes. I also enjoy subverting or ignoring those tropes. So, I have no problem with PCs being exceptions to the standard in some ways, but not all. As someone trained in anthropology, I appreciate the distinction WotC plans to make between culture and species.
However, I also understand and expect science to hold true except when a reason is given. Ability Score Adjustments for species should exist. A 1/2 Orc has an undeniable physical advantage over a 1/2ling in terms of strength. Sheer mass makes it so.
What we need to keep in mind is that DnD is set in fantasy worlds where magic and the supernatural exist. Sure your typical halfling don't have a chance in hell lifting 200 lbs normally. But we don't find halflings in the real world do we? And what if that 15 Str halfling got that strong because he or she was blessed with supernatural strength by a nature spirit or something? The most important thing is having a good backstory that supports your characters stats and alignment. Normal physics don't need to apply in a fantasy world of magic.
So, every 1/2ling (but only if they are PCs) are blessed by the gods to be as strong as 1/2 Orcs?
The intent in my post was not to refute any of your arguments; it was instead to show the futility of this debate. The argument that you make has been made at least a half dozen times, and it really hasn't changed anything. Every thread on this topic has been locked, and it often descends into personal attacks and fallacies.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I'm only saying that could be a possible answer as to why a 15 or more Str halfling get their inhuman strength. Now obviously not everyone who plays a halfling is going for a Str based halfling now are they? And what is wrong with PCs being blessed by the gods? Most characters I play (if they can avoid a premature death) end up being a famous hero of note. Whats so weird about the gods blessing potential legends?
Absolutely nothing that I can think of is wrong with a 1/2ling PC having higher than average strength (for 1/2lings) because they are blessed by the gods. But, that should be an exception within an exception, I wrote earlier that science should be expected to hold true unless there is a stated reason otherwise.
The spread of PC 1/2ling strength should be lower than that of PC 1/2 Orc strength. If a specific PC 1/2llng happens to be blessed by the gods with greater strength, then that should be possible just as it should be possible for a specific 1/2ling to be blessed by the gods with dark vision. Your DM should be happy to work with you to make that happen (maybe -2 to Wisdom and +2 to Strength, like Hercules and Samson, on top of all other modifiers).
Your half orc can swing heavy weapons around without penalty, the halfling can't.
Your half orc can grapple Large creatures, the halfling can't.
The mechanics are there, they're just not where you want them to be.
As others have mentioned, this argument has already been beaten to death. If you don't like the rule, don't include it in your game. But stop trying to argue that I shouldn't be able to include it in my game.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Please delete
I never argued that you shouldn’t be able to include whatever you want in your game.
I shouldn’t have to give you my permission to play your game however you want, but if you need that kind of affirmation, then know that I support you including whatever you want, no matter how ridiculous it is - gelatinous cubes as PCs, races not getting ability score adjustments, Mind Flayers hosting Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, etc.
Hmmmm....so I guess the gods like Halflings more than Half-Orc's, because we never hear of Half-Orc's being blessed with supernatural strength relative to their species, where this Half-Orc touched by a god would out their starting strength at 22.