Hello everyone! Wasn't sure where to put reworked cantrips, so I figured here is the safest bet. Since one of my players loved the flavor of the Encode Thoughts cantrip for a more espionage-based character, but they had troubles using it effectively. So, I decided to try a rework to allow them to better share information more discreetly and give it a bit more utility while still within the confines of a cantrip. While the At Higher Levels portion has never been done with a cantrip as far as I can tell, there is precedent from other spells such as Bestow Curse that increases the duration of the spell at higher levels.
As usual, feel free to create a character and playtest this idea out, just be sure to give credit where its due and tell me know what you think of this rework!
Encode Thoughts
Enchantment cantrip Casting Time: 1 action Range: Self Components: S Duration: 4 hours Description: Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, idea, or message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again to create a new thought strand. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 ft of you as a Tiny, weightless, semi-solid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary. If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as the Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory spells), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand. Over the course of 1 minute, a creature can concentrate on the thought strand (as if they were concentrating on a spell) and see the memory, idea, or message as if they had experienced it themselves, at which point, the strand is consumed by the creature. ~(User IamSposta influenced this updated suggestion) Casting the Detect Thoughts spell on the strand has the same effect without consuming the strand. At Higher Levels: Starting at 5th level, the duration for this spell increases to 8 hours. At 11th level, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours. At 17th level, the spell's duration increases to Until Dispelled
I would adjust it a bit. (The point of it is to prevent others from getting that memory after all.) So something more like this:
Encode Thoughts (alt rewrite v1.1)
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self
COMPONENTS
S
DURATION
4 Hours
SCHOOL
Enchantment
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Creation (...)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
When you cast this spell you can choose up to 1 creature you know to have access to the thought encoded in this strand. Before the spell ends, if that creature is holding your thought strand it can spend an action to concentrate on it (as if concentrating on a spell) and receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
This spell’s duration increases by 2 hours when you reach 5th level (6 hours), 11th level (8 hours), and 17th level (10 hours).
Or this:
Encode Thoughts (alt rewrite v2.1)
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self
COMPONENTS
S
DURATION
8 Hours
SCHOOL
Enchantment
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Creation (...)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
When you cast this spell you can choose up to 1 creature you know to have access to the thought encoded in this strand. Before the spell ends, if that creature is holding your thought strand it can spend an action to concentrate on it (as if concentrating on a spell) and receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
The number of creatures you can designate as having access to your encoded thoughts increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 creatures ), 11th level (3 creatures), and 17th level (4 creatures).
My expectation was that it could encode your own thoughts to make them immune to Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory while the spell is active. It would also prevent Modify Memory from altering any memory formed while the spell was active. Perhaps it could have this as a secondary effect.
My expectation was that it could encode your own thoughts to make them immune to Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory while the spell is active. It would also prevent Modify Memory from altering any memory formed while the spell was active. Perhaps it could have this as a secondary effect.
It does. If anyone casts either detect thoughts or modify memory on you while your thought is encoded, it cannot affect the encoded thought, or if it does you can always restore it from the backup in the thought strand.
If they specifically cast detect thoughts targeting the thought strand itself however, they can still access the encoded thought. But detect thoughts requires that the caster be able to see their target, so if you stick your thought strand in your pocket (or wristpocket), they cannot target the strand.
@IamSposta That actually an interesting idea, however, I don't think a cantrip should have that many layers of abilities and secrecy. A creature would need to learn about the strand and know roughly how to use it as I don't think a normal person not magically inclined would know what to do with a glowing ribbon. Plus, it being a cantrip, I don't think it would be able to keep individuals out. Now if there was a higher level version of this spell, I would certainly add that component to it. Still a good idea for use if people want further secrecy
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"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
@pavilionaire Its unclear honestly. How I interpret the spell is that it simply replicates the thought you have in your mind to allow someone else to view it for ease of communication. There is no wording in the spell that indicates the thought strand removes the memory/idea/message completely from your/a target's brain. Plus it is also a cantrip and for true memory shenanigans, we have to delve into higher level spell slots for examples. Its a neat idea for a higher level version of this rework (such as how Sending is a better Message)
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"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
@IamSposta That actually an interesting idea, however, I don't think a cantrip should have that many layers of abilities and secrecy. A creature would need to learn about the strand and know roughly how to use it as I don't think a normal person not magically inclined would know what to do with a glowing ribbon. Plus, it being a cantrip, I don't think it would be able to keep individuals out. Now if there was a higher level version of this spell, I would certainly add that component to it. Still a good idea for use if people want further secrecy
@pavilionaire Its unclear honestly. How I interpret the spell is that it simply replicates the thought you have in your mind to allow someone else to view it for ease of communication. There is no wording in the spell that indicates the thought strand removes the memory/idea/message completely from your/a target's brain. Plus it is also a cantrip and for true memory shenanigans, we have to delve into higher level spell slots for examples. Its a neat idea for a higher level version of this rework (such as how Sending is a better Message)
If that were the case, then why name it “encode thoughts?” Encoded makes me think James Bond. This is the D&D equivalent of the microfilm that needed to be smuggled out of Soviet Russia or something.
The very first line of the spell states:
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again.
It doesn’t say it pulls a “copy” of that memory, idea, or message. It says it pulls the actual thing itself.
Besides, this isn’t “true memory shenanigans,” it’s more like the a bus terminal locker than a vault, more like a Fannypack than a secured curriers case. More like Uber than The Transporter.
Especially considering that encode thoughts is a Dimir spell… and the theme of the background and characters who use it….
@IamSposta With that added bit of context, I can see your point yea. Then I suppose my biggest thing is the conflict of mechanics vs meta, cause with that interpretation, the player "loses" the memory and gives it to someone else. The player would still remember it but their characters won't due to having it extracted from their brain. That's what I mean by memory shenanigans. Plus I can see a bad DM weaponize that but that is at best worst case scenario and one shouldn't be at that table more than likely anyway.
I still view the extra security layer as too much for what a cantrip should provide but that is up for debate as the original design had that concept (since you needed to cast the cantrip in order to even use thought strands) but it is lacking in mine. I'm not sure the right answer.
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
I always interpreted it as the caster gets their memory/idea/message back when the spell ends. And casting Detect Thoughts on a strand also allows someone to “read” it.
That was why I wrote my first “alt” version wherein the caster can designate the intended recipient of the strand. Then, as the balance I dropped the duration way down by half (and had it incrementally scale like other cantrips). If you wanted, you could always adjust it more:
Encode Thoughts (alt rewrite v.3.0.0)
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self
COMPONENTS
S
DURATION
5 Hours
SCHOOL
Enchantment
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Creation (...)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
When you cast this spell you can choose up to 1 creature you know to have access to the thought encoded in this strand. Before the spell ends, if that creature is holding your thought strand it can spend an action to concentrate on it (as if concentrating on a spell) and receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. Once that creature drops concentration, the spell ends, the thought strand dissipates, and the encoded contents return to their creature of origin.
Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
In addition, any creature in possession of a thought strand can spend a short rest attuning to it as a magic item. If the spell ends before the period of attunement is complete, the thought strand dissipates, and the encoded contents return to their creature of origin. Once attuned, that creature can spend an action to make an Intelligence (Arcana) check against the creator’s spell save DC. On a success, that creature can access the encoded thought as long as it maintains concentration (as if concentrating on a spell). Once that creature drops concentration, the spell ends, the thought strand dissipates, and the encoded contents return to their creature of origin.
This spell’s duration increases by 1 hour when you reach 5th level (6 hours), 11th level (7 hours), and 17th level (8 hours).
That version is more “hackable.” But remember, if the strand’s creator casts the spell again, the active strand is kaput.
@IamSposta Thinking on it some, I believe I have found a way to have a bit more of the secrecy aspect (at least from the user) while still maintaining some of the original intent from my redesign. What are your thoughts?
"Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, idea, or message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again to create a new thought strand. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 ft of you as a Tiny, weightless, semi-solid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary. If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as the Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory spells), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
When you create a thought strand of a specific memory, idea, or message, you or the creature the thought strand came from retains the information, but the information cannot be gleaned from them by spells that search ones thoughts, such as the Detect Thoughts spell, and they cannot be compelled to speak on it, such as through the Zone of Truth spell, while the thought strand persists.
As an action, a creature can concentrate on a thought strand and see the memory, idea, or message as if they had experienced it themselves, at which point, the strand is consumed by the creature. Casting the Detect Thoughts spell on the strand has the same effect without consuming the strand. At Higher Levels: Starting at 5th level, the duration for this spell increases to 8 hours. At 11th level, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours. At 17th level, the spell's duration increases to Until Dispelled"
This now has more of the "encoded" aspect in that a caster can use this to hid specific information inside a thought strand from intelligence gathering and that leaves the people to find the thought strand itself, which can be spirited away pretty easily. As of current, I do also like the idea of people having to perform an Arcana check to brute force viewing the spell but didn't add it in as of yet as I'm still on the fence on how difficult it should be to access a cantrip level spell.
Now that’s too powerful for a cantrip. That gets it into 2nd-level(ish) territory. I mean, it specifically calls out two 2nd-level spells that it c-blocks, and it’s still only an action with no checks or anything required to access the memory, aaannd it gets up to “Until Dispelled.”
You really want this to be a messaging/sharing spell. It’s supposed to be the exact opposite of a “thought sharing” spell. It’s supposed to be the weakest thought storing/stealing spell it can be. It really seems like you want it to do the exact opposite of what it is intended to do. If you want this to be a way to share thoughts and memories then stop trying to turn this spell into that spell. Just go write that spell as something completely different. I mean, this is like complaining that a vegan burger isn’t burgery enough so you want to replace it with 50% beef. Dude, just make a beef burger and stop trying to make soy taste like beef. If you want a “thought/idea/memory sharing spell,” then do that. But stop trying to make a “thought/idea/memory stealing/concealing spell” into a “sharing spell.” It won’t work. You would have better luck tweaking fireball into a spell that rebuilds burned down houses, keeps meat fresh for years like a freezer, and heals burns like aloe. 🤷♂️ That’s my advice anyway. Maybe instead of trying to turn a Encode Thoughts into a sharing spell, maybe instead try turning Detect Thoughts inside out and dropping the power way down:
Project Thoughts
LEVEL
2nd
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self
COMPONENTS
V, S, M *
DURATION
Concentration 1 Minute
SCHOOL
Enchantment
ATTACK/SAVE
WIS Save
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Communication(...)
For the duration, you can project your thoughts to certain creatures. When you cast the spell and as your action on each turn until the spell ends, you can focus your mind on any one creature that you can see within 30 feet of you. If the creature you choose has an Intelligence of 3 or lower or doesn't speak any language, the creature is unaffected.
You initially send your surface thoughts to the creature--what is most on your mind in that moment. As an action, you can either shift your attention to another creature or attempt to press deeper into the same creature's mind. If the target is unwilling, it must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the target is willing, and it knows you are the one projecting these thought into its mind, it can choose to fail this save. If it fails, you insert your psyche into its mind and force it to experience your reasoning (if any), your emotional state, and something that looms large in your mind (such as something you obsess over, love, or hate). If it succeeds, the spell ends. Either way, the target knows that you are pushing ideas, memories, or experiences into its mind, and unless you shift your attention to another creature's thoughts, the creature can use its action on its turn to make an Intelligence check contested by your Intelligence check; if it succeeds, the spell ends.
You can also use this spell to announce your presence to thinking creatures you can't see. When you cast the spell or as your action during the duration, you can cast out to minds within 30 feet of you. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 2 feet of rock, 2 inches of any metal other than lead, or a thin sheet of lead blocks you. You can't project into a creature with an Intelligence of 3 or lower or one that doesn't speak any language.
Once you project your presence to a creature in this way, you can implant your thoughts for the rest of the duration as described above, even if you can't see it, but it must still be within range.
* - (a string tied around your finger)
Or, if you really want it to be more like Encode Thoughts, something like this:
T-mail
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Minute
RANGE/AREA
Self
COMPONENTS
S
DURATION
6 Hours
SCHOOL
Conjuration
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Creation (...)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message lasting no longer than 1 minute from your mind and transform it into a tangible sheet of glowing energy called a thought scroll, which persists for the duration or until it is destroyed, you dismiss it as an action, or until you cast this spell again . The thought scroll appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a scroll. A thought scroll has an AC of 10 and 5 HP.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), if the creature is willing you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought scroll.
Once you have created a thought scroll, as an action you can whisper the name of a single creature you are familiar with to the scroll. If that creature is on the same plane of existence as you, the scroll immediately folds itself into the form of an origami bird and immediately starts wending its way towards that creature. Though it is not a creature, it has a passive perception of 10, adds +0 to any initiative rolls it has to make, has a flying speed of 60 ft., and can take the following actions: dash, disengage, or dodge. A thought scroll cannot take any other actions.
For the duration, if the scroll reaches its intended recipient, that creature can spend an action to access the information contained within. The creature who received those thoughts can even add a reply to the scroll and send it flying back to you as above. Provided it reaches you while this spell is still ongoing, you can receive the other creature’s reply as an action.
Whether the intended recipient or not, any creature holding a thought scroll can instantly learn whatever memory, idea, or message the thought scroll contains by casting this spell. (Casting detect thoughts on the scroll has the same effect.)
Potential scaling effects (I couldn’t decide 🤷♂️ );
The spell can create more than one thought scroll when you reach higher levels: two at 5th level, three at 11th level, and four at 17th level. You direct each scroll to a different recipient.
The spell's duration is extended by two hours when you reach higher levels: 8 at 5th level, 10 at 11th level, and 12 at 17th level.
The thought scroll’s speed increases by 10 ft when you reach higher levels: 70 ft at 5th level, 80 at 11th level, and 90 at 17th level.
The length of the idea or memory your thought scroll can contain increases by 1 minute when you reach higher levels: 2 ft at 5th level, 3 at 11th level, and 4 at 17th level.
@IamSposta Counter-points. The spell can only produce one thought strand at a time. Even with the Until Dispelled factor (at 17th level mind you), that is still one small iota of information that a person could store in a given thought strand. And even then, having the strand gives you the information anyway. That small protection could at best be bent to stop someone from accessing a specific memory of a place or key phrases of a conversation when an enemy tries to access that with magical means.
Plus the cantrip is mostly original to the source material, only allowing a wider net of people to actually access the strand rather than changing how the spell functions and a longer duration for the strands existence before it poofs out of existence (excluding the block of magical manipulation which was a thought experiment since you mentioned there was no "encoded" aspect). The cantrip is about trading and accessing information secretly. Even in the Dimir uses that as its primary function.
In my homebrew world, the Dimir don't exist, but this would be a great use for spy networks and potential plot hooks if the player found these things. Strands of this should be easy to crack, which is why I didn't initially have a check to try and access the information. Its like finding a piece of paper with a rudimentary cipher. If you know, you know. If you don't know anyone with basic intelligence can figure out how to solve it. Its not trying to do a lot of things as you state with your fireball example. Its doing one thing with a greater window of time.
So I don't believe I am making a strong detour from the spell's purpose. It was designed as a thought sharing spell, just with the right people. This edit was designed to give my player who wants to be secret agent-like and not be depended on the whims of me having an NPC with an otherwise useless cantrip just for them, so they can be useful to the right or wrong type of people and as they level, they can create a strand for long periods of time so they can be transported with greater ease if they couldn't get to places in time.
But the spell is intended for the Dimir, it’s their spell. That’s why it works that way for them, because they all know that spell. Simple fix, add the Dimir (or some other faction) to your world so that more people have the spell and can use the strands.
Like, seriously, as DM you control aaaallllllll the NPCs. Just give more of them this spell and Detect Thoughts and Modify Memory. Your entire dilemma is that this spell as-is isn’t useful because not enough “people” can use the strands.
So give more of the people this spell….
Look, no offense, but I got other things to do. I’ve given you my 2cp, like, 8 times now. Do what you want, it’s your campaign.
@IamSposta I suppose that is a fair to an extent, just trying to iron out what I thought was a cool idea. And no offense taken or given, but you didn't have to keep replying either if you didn't want to. Thank you for your inputs
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"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
Sorry. Normally I enjoy these exercises, really. But I was tryin’a push through some stuff for myself (still am) for this week’s game. I’m one of those people who can’t ignore a ringing phone. 🤷♂️ And you kept hittin’ me up. I really shouldn’t have snapped like that though. I tried to at least be funny to show I wasn’t really angry, just annoyed. And not really all at you or anything, my project was giving me sass. Most homebrewing I enjoy, but I’m not really ‘brewing, more converting.
I’m one of those weirdos that has to build my “major” NPCs as PCs. Not “powerful” per se, or specifically plot related at the time, heck or maybe not ever. But they are significant in some way, even if it’s just so I know wher their level is at for comparison, or something. I… I… I don’t really know myself why I pick those, but I do. It lets me understand better. They makes me need to get in their heads. Making them as PCs helps me do that.
Yeah, I know all the reasons that’s a less than brilliant way to run combat,, and some other scenarios. But my group is big on RP. I do very few, very challenging encounters that usually have a puzzle element to them so it’s not entirely about DPR. Don’t get me wrong, if I suspect that there’s gonna be a scuffle, I convert them to statblocks and then start trimming them down and figuring out what I want to keep and what can go (I want it all!! But that’s a terrible idea.) So that’s the annoying part. Sometimes I get real inspired to come up with something cool to try to simplify or condense several cool things that are too much for statblocks. But usually it’s just a slow process of grabbing snippets, rewording them to be shorter, and then converting it all to shorthand. 🙄
Now, don’t get me wrong. I get why people say I’m nuts and I should just create them as statblocks in the first place, but I have a harder time balancing “ooomph ratios” for them in non-combat situations that way for some reason.
Like you know in those old westerns when the white hats and the black hats would have their initial bump in the saloon or on the homestead or wherever in the first act that sets up the central tensions for the movie? And John Wayne and the other white hats would look at the badguys and vice versa and you get those moments when their sizing each other up and the white hats don’t want the trouble but the black hats are itchin’ or drunk or they outnumber them, or Robert Mitchum or Dean Martin’s a drunk and they laugh at him, or whatever. So they just *bump* and put a pin in it until the second act when they *bump hard* and you jut know there’s gonna be a reckoning’ in act three.
Well… that works in the movies because Claude Akins, John Russell, Christopher George, and Ed Asner (the black hats) and John Wayne and Robert Mitchum and Dean Martin (the White Hats) all know they have to wait for Ricky Nelson and James Cann (the “up-‘n-comer, white hats) or there will be problems with making the movie. But the PCs aren’t in a movie, so the players aren’t looking at the script and going “not yet.” Players do the darnedest things sometimes. Like trying a frontal assault on the evil necromacer’s lair full of both undead and human minions… in the middle of broad daylight, when the necromancer happens to be one of the most prominent and highly regarded members of the comunity… and his Lair happens to be a hospital full innocents who have no idea anything is going on….. Just like the players because they’re only 10 minutes into the first act. They haven’t even bumped yet. They rushed the bumps. 🤦♂️
So when I need make sure that a bump goes right, I need to know them as people. Are they cold quiet type that bumps so soft the PCs didn’t even realize they just met a main villain? Are they the type to get the PCs blood up and when er the time comes he goes down like a punk? Are they the cold as steel blackhat gunslinger who circles around Wayne like a two tigers for the whole movie? I have an easier time with that when I build them as PCs.
Anyway, now that I’ve made a short story into a long story into an even longer tangent….
I let your 'brew rattle around in my noggin’ and I had an idea. What if, instead of changing this cantrip much (if at all), why not make a “Strand Scanner” ca trip, and then a 1st-leve “Scanner Jammer,” and then maybe a 1st-level skimmer with an ”antijammer scrambler.” Then maybe a 2nd level IC. In D&D “low level magic is C- 2nd levels. The Kinda of low-level spies that are gonna be dealing with that street level tradecraft are gonna be those 0-3rd level types. By the time your 5th level you start getting called on for more… sensitive assignments… 00….
So, applying the same patterns as we already know from experience, there would totally be an ever escalating “arms race” for “tech” (Magic) designed for all levels of (informationgathering v security) that would be going back and forth. But especially designed for that “pawns” being moved around the board by the key players in the back lines. It would legitimately be believable that there would be Encode Thoughts as is as well as some of the variants we’ve discussed, T-mail, Detect Thoughts & Project thoughts and all the others too.
With Thought Strands in that great a demand (and apparently supply) then a “strand scanner” cantrip that just detects nearby strands. And a jammer spell to block that one, and a 1st level spell that bypasses that…. If there’s a Strand Scanner. Why not a Strand Skimmer that copies the contents of a strand in proximity, as is you can stay within range for 1 Minute-1d4 rounds (d6@5th;d8@11th;d10@17th). Incan already see thee spies all tailing each other all over eastern/western/whichever wherever already. A cantrip that just makes a fake strand to lure skimmers into duping them and when the try to retrieve the thoughts it brain-booby traps them with Psychic damage, or even explodes with force damage or corpses them with Necrotic damage. Or even just whacks them with a level of exhaustion flat out. (Ouch.) A little instant cantrip that just sends a harmless nothing off fluttering away somewhere sending off a Strand vibe to send enemy spies off in on wild goose chases.
Even without a “magic Cold War,” people with secrets worth protecting are usually people willing to invest in security. Because if the secrets are worth keeping, someone going to come looking for them sooner or later. So, the kinds of entry level agents doing the running around on the streets. That’s the kind of stuff Encode Thoughts was really made for. By making it so that anyone can read it like postcard Kinda defeats the purpose. And part of the whole cat-and-mouse spywork is that anyone who can cast Encode Thoughts can already spend an action to read anybody’s strand:
Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
Anyone who can cast either spell can hack someone’s strand. That’s why this is the one that would birth the demand for trackers copiers, and countermeasures.
See, you and your friend want this to be a cool way to shared ideas and thoughts, and it could be, because it is. Bit right now your friend is like the first person ever with a telephone. (nobody to call and nobody calling.) So quite literally she just needs more NPCs to get a phone. If Encode Thoughts was as ubiquitous as cellphones it would be useless as a spy spell. It wouldn’t be “encode thoughts,” it would be, I dunno tiktok or something.
And if really all it’s supposed to be is a “make a memory permanent so you can show it to people like vacation photos” thing, and hen skip the whole Detect Thoughts / Modify Memory thing entirely and make it all access all you want. Call it “FJFSOM’s instant souvenir,” or “memento,” or “Polaroid.”
@IamSposta I completely understand and accept the apology. I didn't realize my pings actually went though cause in most cases, I never get pings from Beyond apart from the odd notification 2 days later and I have to look manually for replies to my stuff. If you need to get your own stuff done first then by all means, come back when you are less stressed buddy. Didn't mean to be a bother.
As far as your new ideas, my main thought process (at least for how I design spells/subclasses of this nature) is utility. Most of the ideas are hyper specific much like the original Encode Thoughts, which can be useful, but nothing is more frustrating for a player than having an otherwise useless spell/cantrip that is very situationally useful, especially if they pick it as part of their normal class routine. Even with spells that have one specific focus they need to be useful at least part of the time. And like you said, having everyone and their mother with the ability to do it would just cheapen the espionage experience, which is why I made the cantrip the way I did. My example for a good specific utility spell is Pass without Trace. It does one thing, grant a bonus to Stealth, but stealth is real useful in clutch moments so taking the spell is rewarding when it has its place. My example for a bad specific utility spell would be Leomund's Secret Chest. Its a cool spell, albeit expensive, but with how its written, there is a small chance the spell just ends randomly after a set timeframe, which is real frustrating for players who spend nearly 5000 gp for a time bomb that was supposed to keep their stuff safe. (If nothing else than to give my perspective on my normal design process)
As far as your new ideas with that context:
Detect Thoughts counts as a scanner type spell given its current use with the Encode Thoughts. But for more mook level scanning, my first thought would be a cantrip called "Scanner", which would be a concentration spell that detects the thoughts of creatures within a small radius but not what they are actually thinking, but that seems real potent for a cantrip so it would need to be bumped to a 1st lvl spell, which seems not as useful as Detect Thoughts but can be used in a pinch. I can also see this being an Uncommon magic item for non-mages, mostly useful for finding hidden enemies but has a unique bonus of finding these strands as well
As far as a copy spell, Detect Thoughts and OG Encode Thoughts also fills that niche roll. Since these strands are latent thoughts and ideas, its a relatively easy to just look at it with the spell(s) without need of copying it since it now in their head (or done by picking up the strand and consume it in my version)
Now the fake strands I like and I remember you mentioning this before. Something akin to a Glyph of Warding effect where if a person not specifically mentioned (or without a specific password or something) tries to read the strand, they take lets say 2d6 psychic damage and potentially some other effect (such as giving a false memory that this strand contains what they want). I'll call this... "Encode Malice". For simplicity lets say its a 2nd level spell with higher level effects for more dmg/effects. Now, in the OG version, this would not be as useful as setting a trap others can't really/rarely use isn't as good design. But if anyone in theory could pick up a normal cantrip strand and learn from it, this suddenly becomes much more likely to be sprung
To address the thoughts of "If anyone can access the strand, then why use it?" argument, its two fold. 1. Its a cantrip, so it itself shouldn't have a lot of defenses to keep the wrong people out if they can find it as it is a physical item 2. It doesn't necessarily have to be just used for airtight espionage. It can have other utility, such as using a Sleight of Hand to leave a strand for a following NPC/PC with the image of a landmark to follow, getting past the Silence spell as it only has Somatic components, etc. Having a degree of openness helps players think of creative solutions
For a more secure version, I would suggest a 3rd level spell. "Encode Memory" as a working title. Same effect of Encode Thoughts but has some barrier to entry on all fronts (either requiring a password to access or a successful Arcana check to brute force, even with something like Detect Thoughts, as you suggested earlier) with an additional bonus that the strands can last longer with higher level slots, you can create multiple without the previous disappearing, and you can store more within a strand, such as an entire speech, 5-10 minute memory, etc. For the additional secrecy, you could also add the effect where the original info can't be detected in the user, such as with Detect Thoughts, where the enemy needs to find the strand in order to learn it, making it also useful as a very limited Nondetetction type effect.
So I do understand the thought of it being hyper focused for one thing, but I like my players thinking outside the box and using everything at their disposal, especially in a social or puzzle setting where they have to work around their enemy as best they can. Treating the cantrip as a rare tech like a phone instead of a piece of paper with a cipher can seems better at first, but also bars potential plot hooks where the players suddenly become embroiled in an assassination plot, because they managed to stumble upon a single strand with a dagger embedding the kings neck. In the OG version, that one player would have a cool moment and potential more, but it would otherwise have no use for them
But I do enjoy a different perspective. It helps look at things in different angles to make them better
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"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
My idea for a “Strand Scanner” was literally nothing but either a cantrip or 1st-level Ritual spell that worked exactly like Detect Magic, but only detected thought strands, and may had an option to crack a strand open if you passed the Arcana Check to represent you “lockpicking” the strand. Like this:
Strand Scan
LEVEL
Cantrip
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self (30 ft )
COMPONENTS
S
DURATION
Concentration 10 Minutes
SCHOOL
Divination
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Detection
For the duration, you sense the presence of thought strands within 30 feet of you. If you sense a thought strand in this way, you can use your action in one of the following ways:
You open your minds eye to see a faint glow around any visible strands in the area.
You get a more accurate bearing on hidden strands in the area, whether hidden by an object or being concealed by a creature. Make an Intelligence (Investigation) check with advantage to locate hidden strands.
You can attempt to decode a strand you are holding. Make a spellcasting ability check, the DC equals the Spell Save DC of the creature who created the strand. On a successful check you manage to decode the strand and receive the thought, idea, or message. On a failed check you cannot attempt to decode that strand again.
The spell can penetrate most barriers to detect strands, but it is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt.
You can make 1 more attempt to decode a strand you failed to decode starting at 5th (2 attempts), 11th (3), and 17th level (up to 4 attempts)
And I meant a "Skimmer” like thieves and hankers use to clone credit card info in crowds. Like:
Strand Ripper
LEVEL
1st-level
CASTING TIME
1 ActionRitual
RANGE/AREA
Self (20 ft )
COMPONENTS
S
DURATION
Concentration 5 Minutes
SCHOOL
Divination
ATTACK/SAVE
None
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Creation
Until the spell ends, if you spend at least 18 seconds while a thought strand is in this spell’s area of effect, at the end of that time this spell creates a duplicate of that strand which lasts for 8 hours. You can only have 1 active thought strand created by this spell at any given time. if this spell duplicates another strand while one is already created, the older of them is immediately destroyed.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, it can duplicate one additional strand for every slot level above first, up to a maximum of 4 strands.
My idea for the scrambler would have just nullified those 👆 and effects like them within a certain radius.
For a more secure version, I would suggest a 3rd level spell. "Encode Memory" as a working title. Same effect of Encode Thoughts but has some barrier to entry on all fronts (either requiring a password to access or a successful Arcana check to brute force, even with something like Detect Thoughts, as you suggested earlier) with an additional bonus that the strands can last longer with higher level slots, you can create multiple without the previous disappearing, and you can store more within a strand, such as an entire speech, 5-10 minute memory, etc. For the additional secrecy, you could also add the effect where the original info can't be detected in the user, such as with Detect Thoughts, where the enemy needs to find the strand in order to learn it, making it also useful as a very limited Nondetetction type effect.
3rd level is pushing it, now your competing with really powerful Magic’s to *** about with 1st tier stuff. That why the original doesn’t scale at all, it doesn’t need to.
So I do understand the thought of it being hyper focused for one thing, but I like my players thinking outside the box and using everything at their disposal, especially in a social or puzzle setting where they have to work around their enemy as best they can.
This isn’t a matter of “being hyper focused.” This spell is designed to keep people out, and you want to rewrite it so that it no longer functions at its intended purpose.
To put it into perspective, it would be like deciding that Magnificent Mansion is a bad spell because all it does is make a house to keep people out for a few hours for, but you wanted it to make a barbershop that customers could walk in-and-out of. (Not to mention the unfair labor practices in addition to the exclusionary membership policies.) So you change it to make any kind of building you want of the same size, and it can last as long as you want, but there’s no servants, no food, it isn’t invisible, and there’s no front door…. What?!?
I get what you’re saying, but by having it so that any creature can access the encoded strand without it requiring anything at all turns this spell into Secret Chest….
My example for a bad specific utility spell would be Leomund's Secret Chest. Its a cool spell, albeit expensive, but with how its written, there is a small chance the spell just ends randomly after a set timeframe, which is real frustrating for players who spend nearly 5000 gp for a time bomb that was supposed to keep their stuff safe. (If nothing else than to give my perspective on my normal design process)
The entire point behind Encode Thoughts is to put a temporary lock on it and be able to squirrel it away for a good chunk of time. If anyone can pick it up and get at the contents, then it would be safer to leave it in your head. Including that kind of clause turns a spell PCs can use to keep their memories relatively safe ribbon while simultaneously allowing the party members to swap strands as a means of super secretive communications and takes the main safety and security feature off.
“As an action, a creature can concentrate on a thought strand and see the memory, idea, or message as if they had experienced it themselves, at which point, the strand is consumed by the creature.
That’s the exact part that make a pretty cool little security/warding/utility cantrip and makes it as bad as true strike.
That is the exact thing that Encode Thoughts is specifically intended to prevent. I don’t understand how you’re not getting that. The problem isn’t Encode Thoughts. The spell is generally fine as is. The problem is that either you or your player thought it worked one way, or did one thing, but it turns out I’m that it does the exact opposite of that.
You don’t really seem to want an “Encode Thoughts” at all. You seem to really want “Share Thoughts” or Thought Mail.” Or even worse (God forbid) a memory sharing cantrip that would make the horror of having to look at slideshows of other peoples vacations look like a relief. You want “Memory Board” this is “Memory Lockbox.”
And I keep giving you alternatives that would still let it do what you want while also keeping them safe, but you keep rejecting them. I don’t know why.
I suggested naming your intended recipient(s) so that you could drop the strand for your friends and then they would be the only ones who could get into it (unless someone hacked it with this spell). I suggested that the person accessing the strand has to at least Concentrate on it (as if on a spell) for a minute to crack the strand. Makes it take enough time for someone to potentially stop the creature. That way it could still do what you want without remaking what is supposed to be a security spell and turning it into the least secure thing you could do with your memories.
To address the thoughts of "If anyone can access the strand, then why use it?" argument, its two fold. 1. Its a cantrip, so it itself shouldn't have a lot of defenses to keep the wrong people out if they can find it as it is a physical item 2. It doesn't necessarily have to be just used for airtight espionage. It can have other utility, such as using a Sleight of Hand to leave a strand for a following NPC/PC with the image of a landmark to follow, getting past the Silence spell as it only has Somatic components, etc. Having a degree of openness helps players think of creative solutions
YOU CAN ALREADY DO THAT EXACTLY AS IS!!! It just means someone else in the party also has to know Encode Thoughts. That keeps it as secure as it already is, annddd lets you drop a trail of ribbons for your friends. Your friends just have to be able to cast Encode Thoughts. If at least 1/2 the party had this spell you wouldn’t be trying to rip the guts out of the spell to make it do something it can already do. For reals. Just give the party a couple of rings that don’t require attunement and allow the wearer to cast Encode Thoughts.. Look at that, now not only can the party share strands like you want. But the strands stay secure so not just anybody can get into it.
Okay. Here’s my final bit for this because either I’m not getting my point across or you just don’t care. You are basically trying to turn this spell into the exact opposite of that spell and then combine both versions together into a single spell….
It’s your all’s D&D, your fun ain’t wrong, knock yourself out. But you asked for opinions. My opinion is that you should stop trying to “fix” encode thoughts by marking it the exact opposite of what it’s sposta do and still leaving in the parts that make your idea not jive. My advice, write an entirely different spell that lets you share your memories with anyone who finds them.
Like, seriously, your complaining that a spell designed to put a combination lock on something sucks because now nobody can get into it. Uhhh… dude, that’s ’cause you put a lock on it…. This spell is a discrete combination bicycle lock on a specific memory for a short period of time. If you want other people to get into it, just give them the combination. (Give the other party members this spell.) That’s what it’s designed for, multiple party member having it so they can share thoughts securely. it’s a firewall/VPN and you want to “improve it” by turning off the security functions.
The two simplest things you can do to make this spell infinity more useful are:
Give more people (NPCs & PCs) access to use the spell.
Have the party find a Thought Strand so they can use Encode Thoughts to hack it.
@IamSposta I see that we are on two different wavelengths of design philosophy that are incompatible. I have listed suggestions that take the ideas of your design to try to bridge the gap but you remain dead set on the idea the spell shouldn't change period. At this point, we are just getting frustrated over not understanding the other, which gets both of us nowhere. I can add a longer duration to try and identify a latent thought strand without magical means, seems like a fitting final compromise.
The final rebuttal I will offer is this: If you require additional items, spells, etc for a spell to have any sort of use at all/more than once, then I feel it is bad design on the original product that it needs to be supported so heavily to gain an iota of use. And like with spells in that camp, no one uses them.
Thank you for the thought experiment and the sound board for ideas. It has brought up some cool ideas for other spells I can give my player to futz around with once they get to a higher level. And if nothing else, there is no such thing as a worthless idea, so maybe others can sift though our arguments and find a method that best fits them.
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"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
@IamSposta I see that we are on two different wavelengths of design philosophy that are incompatible. I have listed suggestions that take the ideas of your design to try to bridge the gap but you remain dead set on the idea the spell shouldn't change period.
That’s not even remotely true. I just don’t think making it useless for the thing it is intended to do is a beneficial “change.” At that point, just create something new.
The final rebuttal I will offer is this: If you require additional items, spells, etc for a spell to have any sort of use at all/more than once, then I feel it is bad design on the original product that it needs to be supported so heavily to gain an iota of use. And like with spells in that camp, no one uses them.
Here’s my final rebuttal. The only thing needed to make Encode Thoughts useful is for more that one person to know the spell. Like I said days ago, it’s like a telephone the phone isn’t a flawed design, it just isn’t useful until you know someone else who has a phone so you can call each other. You want the phone to be useful. YOU MEED TO ISSUE MORE OHONE NUMBERS TO OTHER PEOPLE.
Hello everyone! Wasn't sure where to put reworked cantrips, so I figured here is the safest bet. Since one of my players loved the flavor of the Encode Thoughts cantrip for a more espionage-based character, but they had troubles using it effectively. So, I decided to try a rework to allow them to better share information more discreetly and give it a bit more utility while still within the confines of a cantrip. While the At Higher Levels portion has never been done with a cantrip as far as I can tell, there is precedent from other spells such as Bestow Curse that increases the duration of the spell at higher levels.
As usual, feel free to create a character and playtest this idea out, just be sure to give credit where its due and tell me know what you think of this rework!
Encode Thoughts
Enchantment cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: 4 hours
Description: Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, idea, or message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again to create a new thought strand. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 ft of you as a Tiny, weightless, semi-solid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as the Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory spells), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand. Over the course of 1 minute, a creature can concentrate on the thought strand (as if they were concentrating on a spell) and see the memory, idea, or message as if they had experienced it themselves, at which point, the strand is consumed by the creature. ~(User IamSposta influenced this updated suggestion) Casting the Detect Thoughts spell on the strand has the same effect without consuming the strand.
At Higher Levels: Starting at 5th level, the duration for this spell increases to 8 hours. At 11th level, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours. At 17th level, the spell's duration increases to Until Dispelled
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
I would adjust it a bit. (The point of it is to prevent others from getting that memory after all.) So something more like this:
Encode Thoughts (alt rewrite v1.1)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
When you cast this spell you can choose up to 1 creature you know to have access to the thought encoded in this strand. Before the spell ends, if that creature is holding your thought strand it can spend an action to concentrate on it (as if concentrating on a spell) and receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
This spell’s duration increases by 2 hours when you reach 5th level (6 hours), 11th level (8 hours), and 17th level (10 hours).
Or this:
Encode Thoughts (alt rewrite v2.1)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
When you cast this spell you can choose up to 1 creature you know to have access to the thought encoded in this strand. Before the spell ends, if that creature is holding your thought strand it can spend an action to concentrate on it (as if concentrating on a spell) and receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
The number of creatures you can designate as having access to your encoded thoughts increases by 1 when you reach 5th level (2 creatures ), 11th level (3 creatures), and 17th level (4 creatures).
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My expectation was that it could encode your own thoughts to make them immune to Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory while the spell is active. It would also prevent Modify Memory from altering any memory formed while the spell was active. Perhaps it could have this as a secondary effect.
It does. If anyone casts either detect thoughts or modify memory on you while your thought is encoded, it cannot affect the encoded thought, or if it does you can always restore it from the backup in the thought strand.
If they specifically cast detect thoughts targeting the thought strand itself however, they can still access the encoded thought. But detect thoughts requires that the caster be able to see their target, so if you stick your thought strand in your pocket (or wristpocket), they cannot target the strand.
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@IamSposta That actually an interesting idea, however, I don't think a cantrip should have that many layers of abilities and secrecy. A creature would need to learn about the strand and know roughly how to use it as I don't think a normal person not magically inclined would know what to do with a glowing ribbon. Plus, it being a cantrip, I don't think it would be able to keep individuals out. Now if there was a higher level version of this spell, I would certainly add that component to it. Still a good idea for use if people want further secrecy
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
@pavilionaire Its unclear honestly. How I interpret the spell is that it simply replicates the thought you have in your mind to allow someone else to view it for ease of communication. There is no wording in the spell that indicates the thought strand removes the memory/idea/message completely from your/a target's brain. Plus it is also a cantrip and for true memory shenanigans, we have to delve into higher level spell slots for examples. Its a neat idea for a higher level version of this rework (such as how Sending is a better Message)
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
If that were the case, then why name it “encode thoughts?” Encoded makes me think James Bond. This is the D&D equivalent of the microfilm that needed to be smuggled out of Soviet Russia or something.
The very first line of the spell states:
It doesn’t say it pulls a “copy” of that memory, idea, or message. It says it pulls the actual thing itself.
Besides, this isn’t “true memory shenanigans,” it’s more like the a bus terminal locker than a vault, more like a Fannypack than a secured curriers case. More like Uber than The Transporter.
Especially considering that encode thoughts is a Dimir spell… and the theme of the background and characters who use it….
If that spell isn’t intended for espionage, then what is…?!? Ne?
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@IamSposta With that added bit of context, I can see your point yea. Then I suppose my biggest thing is the conflict of mechanics vs meta, cause with that interpretation, the player "loses" the memory and gives it to someone else. The player would still remember it but their characters won't due to having it extracted from their brain. That's what I mean by memory shenanigans. Plus I can see a bad DM weaponize that but that is at best worst case scenario and one shouldn't be at that table more than likely anyway.
I still view the extra security layer as too much for what a cantrip should provide but that is up for debate as the original design had that concept (since you needed to cast the cantrip in order to even use thought strands) but it is lacking in mine. I'm not sure the right answer.
Thanks for the additional insight
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
Encode Thoughts
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
I always interpreted it as the caster gets their memory/idea/message back when the spell ends. And casting Detect Thoughts on a strand also allows someone to “read” it.
That was why I wrote my first “alt” version wherein the caster can designate the intended recipient of the strand. Then, as the balance I dropped the duration way down by half (and had it incrementally scale like other cantrips). If you wanted, you could always adjust it more:
Encode Thoughts (alt rewrite v.3.0.0)
Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, an idea, or a message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 feet of you as a Tiny, weightless, semisolid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as detect thoughts or modify memory), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
Casting this spell while holding a thought strand allows you to instantly receive whatever memory, idea, or message the thought strand contains. (Casting detect thoughts on the strand has the same effect.)
That version is more “hackable.” But remember, if the strand’s creator casts the spell again, the active strand is kaput.
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@IamSposta Thinking on it some, I believe I have found a way to have a bit more of the secrecy aspect (at least from the user) while still maintaining some of the original intent from my redesign. What are your thoughts?
"Putting a finger to your head, you pull a memory, idea, or message from your mind and transform it into a tangible string of glowing energy called a thought strand, which persists for the duration or until you cast this spell again to create a new thought strand. The thought strand appears in an unoccupied space within 5 ft of you as a Tiny, weightless, semi-solid object that can be held and carried like a ribbon. It is otherwise stationary.
If you cast this spell while concentrating on a spell or an ability that allows you to read or manipulate the thoughts of others (such as the Detect Thoughts or Modify Memory spells), you can transform the thoughts or memories you read, rather than your own, into a thought strand.
As an action, a creature can concentrate on a thought strand and see the memory, idea, or message as if they had experienced it themselves, at which point, the strand is consumed by the creature. Casting the Detect Thoughts spell on the strand has the same effect without consuming the strand.
At Higher Levels: Starting at 5th level, the duration for this spell increases to 8 hours. At 11th level, the spell's duration increases to 24 hours. At 17th level, the spell's duration increases to Until Dispelled"
This now has more of the "encoded" aspect in that a caster can use this to hid specific information inside a thought strand from intelligence gathering and that leaves the people to find the thought strand itself, which can be spirited away pretty easily. As of current, I do also like the idea of people having to perform an Arcana check to brute force viewing the spell but didn't add it in as of yet as I'm still on the fence on how difficult it should be to access a cantrip level spell.
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
Now that’s too powerful for a cantrip. That gets it into 2nd-level(ish) territory. I mean, it specifically calls out two 2nd-level spells that it c-blocks, and it’s still only an action with no checks or anything required to access the memory, aaannd it gets up to “Until Dispelled.”
You really want this to be a messaging/sharing spell. It’s supposed to be the exact opposite of a “thought sharing” spell. It’s supposed to be the weakest thought storing/stealing spell it can be. It really seems like you want it to do the exact opposite of what it is intended to do. If you want this to be a way to share thoughts and memories then stop trying to turn this spell into that spell. Just go write that spell as something completely different. I mean, this is like complaining that a vegan burger isn’t burgery enough so you want to replace it with 50% beef. Dude, just make a beef burger and stop trying to make soy taste like beef. If you want a “thought/idea/memory sharing spell,” then do that. But stop trying to make a “thought/idea/memory stealing/concealing spell” into a “sharing spell.” It won’t work. You would have better luck tweaking fireball into a spell that rebuilds burned down houses, keeps meat fresh for years like a freezer, and heals burns like aloe. 🤷♂️ That’s my advice anyway. Maybe instead of trying to turn a Encode Thoughts into a sharing spell, maybe instead try turning Detect Thoughts inside out and dropping the power way down:
Or, if you really want it to be more like Encode Thoughts, something like this:
I hope that helps.
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@IamSposta Counter-points. The spell can only produce one thought strand at a time. Even with the Until Dispelled factor (at 17th level mind you), that is still one small iota of information that a person could store in a given thought strand. And even then, having the strand gives you the information anyway. That small protection could at best be bent to stop someone from accessing a specific memory of a place or key phrases of a conversation when an enemy tries to access that with magical means.
Plus the cantrip is mostly original to the source material, only allowing a wider net of people to actually access the strand rather than changing how the spell functions and a longer duration for the strands existence before it poofs out of existence (excluding the block of magical manipulation which was a thought experiment since you mentioned there was no "encoded" aspect). The cantrip is about trading and accessing information secretly. Even in the Dimir uses that as its primary function.
In my homebrew world, the Dimir don't exist, but this would be a great use for spy networks and potential plot hooks if the player found these things. Strands of this should be easy to crack, which is why I didn't initially have a check to try and access the information. Its like finding a piece of paper with a rudimentary cipher. If you know, you know. If you don't know anyone with basic intelligence can figure out how to solve it. Its not trying to do a lot of things as you state with your fireball example. Its doing one thing with a greater window of time.
So I don't believe I am making a strong detour from the spell's purpose. It was designed as a thought sharing spell, just with the right people. This edit was designed to give my player who wants to be secret agent-like and not be depended on the whims of me having an NPC with an otherwise useless cantrip just for them, so they can be useful to the right or wrong type of people and as they level, they can create a strand for long periods of time so they can be transported with greater ease if they couldn't get to places in time.
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
But the spell is intended for the Dimir, it’s their spell. That’s why it works that way for them, because they all know that spell. Simple fix, add the Dimir (or some other faction) to your world so that more people have the spell and can use the strands.
Like, seriously, as DM you control aaaallllllll the NPCs. Just give more of them this spell and Detect Thoughts and Modify Memory. Your entire dilemma is that this spell as-is isn’t useful because not enough “people” can use the strands.
So give more of the people this spell….
Look, no offense, but I got other things to do. I’ve given you my 2cp, like, 8 times now. Do what you want, it’s your campaign.
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@IamSposta I suppose that is a fair to an extent, just trying to iron out what I thought was a cool idea. And no offense taken or given, but you didn't have to keep replying either if you didn't want to. Thank you for your inputs
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
Sorry. Normally I enjoy these exercises, really. But I was tryin’a push through some stuff for myself (still am) for this week’s game. I’m one of those people who can’t ignore a ringing phone. 🤷♂️ And you kept hittin’ me up. I really shouldn’t have snapped like that though. I tried to at least be funny to show I wasn’t really angry, just annoyed. And not really all at you or anything, my project was giving me sass. Most homebrewing I enjoy, but I’m not really ‘brewing, more converting.
I’m one of those weirdos that has to build my “major” NPCs as PCs. Not “powerful” per se, or specifically plot related at the time, heck or maybe not ever. But they are significant in some way, even if it’s just so I know wher their level is at for comparison, or something. I… I… I don’t really know myself why I pick those, but I do. It lets me understand better. They makes me need to get in their heads. Making them as PCs helps me do that.
Yeah, I know all the reasons that’s a less than brilliant way to run combat,, and some other scenarios. But my group is big on RP. I do very few, very challenging encounters that usually have a puzzle element to them so it’s not entirely about DPR. Don’t get me wrong, if I suspect that there’s gonna be a scuffle, I convert them to statblocks and then start trimming them down and figuring out what I want to keep and what can go (I want it all!! But that’s a terrible idea.) So that’s the annoying part. Sometimes I get real inspired to come up with something cool to try to simplify or condense several cool things that are too much for statblocks. But usually it’s just a slow process of grabbing snippets, rewording them to be shorter, and then converting it all to shorthand. 🙄
Now, don’t get me wrong. I get why people say I’m nuts and I should just create them as statblocks in the first place, but I have a harder time balancing “ooomph ratios” for them in non-combat situations that way for some reason.
Like you know in those old westerns when the white hats and the black hats would have their initial bump in the saloon or on the homestead or wherever in the first act that sets up the central tensions for the movie? And John Wayne and the other white hats would look at the badguys and vice versa and you get those moments when their sizing each other up and the white hats don’t want the trouble but the black hats are itchin’ or drunk or they outnumber them, or Robert Mitchum or Dean Martin’s a drunk and they laugh at him, or whatever. So they just *bump* and put a pin in it until the second act when they *bump hard* and you jut know there’s gonna be a reckoning’ in act three.
Well… that works in the movies because Claude Akins, John Russell, Christopher George, and Ed Asner (the black hats) and John Wayne and Robert Mitchum and Dean Martin (the White Hats) all know they have to wait for Ricky Nelson and James Cann (the “up-‘n-comer, white hats) or there will be problems with making the movie. But the PCs aren’t in a movie, so the players aren’t looking at the script and going “not yet.” Players do the darnedest things sometimes. Like trying a frontal assault on the evil necromacer’s lair full of both undead and human minions… in the middle of broad daylight, when the necromancer happens to be one of the most prominent and highly regarded members of the comunity… and his Lair happens to be a hospital full innocents who have no idea anything is going on….. Just like the players because they’re only 10 minutes into the first act. They haven’t even bumped yet. They rushed the bumps. 🤦♂️
So when I need make sure that a bump goes right, I need to know them as people. Are they cold quiet type that bumps so soft the PCs didn’t even realize they just met a main villain? Are they the type to get the PCs blood up and when er the time comes he goes down like a punk? Are they the cold as steel blackhat gunslinger who circles around Wayne like a two tigers for the whole movie? I have an easier time with that when I build them as PCs.
Anyway, now that I’ve made a short story into a long story into an even longer tangent….
I let your 'brew rattle around in my noggin’ and I had an idea. What if, instead of changing this cantrip much (if at all), why not make a “Strand Scanner” ca trip, and then a 1st-leve “Scanner Jammer,” and then maybe a 1st-level skimmer with an ”antijammer scrambler.” Then maybe a 2nd level IC. In D&D “low level magic is C- 2nd levels. The Kinda of low-level spies that are gonna be dealing with that street level tradecraft are gonna be those 0-3rd level types. By the time your 5th level you start getting called on for more… sensitive assignments… 00….
So, applying the same patterns as we already know from experience, there would totally be an ever escalating “arms race” for “tech” (Magic) designed for all levels of (information gathering v security) that would be going back and forth. But especially designed for that “pawns” being moved around the board by the key players in the back lines. It would legitimately be believable that there would be Encode Thoughts as is as well as some of the variants we’ve discussed, T-mail, Detect Thoughts & Project thoughts and all the others too.
With Thought Strands in that great a demand (and apparently supply) then a “strand scanner” cantrip that just detects nearby strands. And a jammer spell to block that one, and a 1st level spell that bypasses that…. If there’s a Strand Scanner. Why not a Strand Skimmer that copies the contents of a strand in proximity, as is you can stay within range for 1 Minute-1d4 rounds (d6@5th;d8@11th;d10@17th). Incan already see thee spies all tailing each other all over eastern/western/whichever wherever already. A cantrip that just makes a fake strand to lure skimmers into duping them and when the try to retrieve the thoughts it brain-booby traps them with Psychic damage, or even explodes with force damage or corpses them with Necrotic damage. Or even just whacks them with a level of exhaustion flat out. (Ouch.) A little instant cantrip that just sends a harmless nothing off fluttering away somewhere sending off a Strand vibe to send enemy spies off in on wild goose chases.
Even without a “magic Cold War,” people with secrets worth protecting are usually people willing to invest in security. Because if the secrets are worth keeping, someone going to come looking for them sooner or later. So, the kinds of entry level agents doing the running around on the streets. That’s the kind of stuff Encode Thoughts was really made for. By making it so that anyone can read it like postcard Kinda defeats the purpose. And part of the whole cat-and-mouse spywork is that anyone who can cast Encode Thoughts can already spend an action to read anybody’s strand:
Anyone who can cast either spell can hack someone’s strand. That’s why this is the one that would birth the demand for trackers copiers, and countermeasures.
See, you and your friend want this to be a cool way to shared ideas and thoughts, and it could be, because it is. Bit right now your friend is like the first person ever with a telephone. (nobody to call and nobody calling.) So quite literally she just needs more NPCs to get a phone. If Encode Thoughts was as ubiquitous as cellphones it would be useless as a spy spell. It wouldn’t be “encode thoughts,” it would be, I dunno tiktok or something.
And if really all it’s supposed to be is a “make a memory permanent so you can show it to people like vacation photos” thing, and hen skip the whole Detect Thoughts / Modify Memory thing entirely and make it all access all you want. Call it “FJFSOM’s instant souvenir,” or “memento,” or “Polaroid.”
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@IamSposta I completely understand and accept the apology. I didn't realize my pings actually went though cause in most cases, I never get pings from Beyond apart from the odd notification 2 days later and I have to look manually for replies to my stuff. If you need to get your own stuff done first then by all means, come back when you are less stressed buddy. Didn't mean to be a bother.
As far as your new ideas, my main thought process (at least for how I design spells/subclasses of this nature) is utility. Most of the ideas are hyper specific much like the original Encode Thoughts, which can be useful, but nothing is more frustrating for a player than having an otherwise useless spell/cantrip that is very situationally useful, especially if they pick it as part of their normal class routine. Even with spells that have one specific focus they need to be useful at least part of the time. And like you said, having everyone and their mother with the ability to do it would just cheapen the espionage experience, which is why I made the cantrip the way I did. My example for a good specific utility spell is Pass without Trace. It does one thing, grant a bonus to Stealth, but stealth is real useful in clutch moments so taking the spell is rewarding when it has its place. My example for a bad specific utility spell would be Leomund's Secret Chest. Its a cool spell, albeit expensive, but with how its written, there is a small chance the spell just ends randomly after a set timeframe, which is real frustrating for players who spend nearly 5000 gp for a time bomb that was supposed to keep their stuff safe. (If nothing else than to give my perspective on my normal design process)
As far as your new ideas with that context:
So I do understand the thought of it being hyper focused for one thing, but I like my players thinking outside the box and using everything at their disposal, especially in a social or puzzle setting where they have to work around their enemy as best they can. Treating the cantrip as a rare tech like a phone instead of a piece of paper with a cipher can seems better at first, but also bars potential plot hooks where the players suddenly become embroiled in an assassination plot, because they managed to stumble upon a single strand with a dagger embedding the kings neck. In the OG version, that one player would have a cool moment and potential more, but it would otherwise have no use for them
But I do enjoy a different perspective. It helps look at things in different angles to make them better
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
My idea for a “Strand Scanner” was literally nothing but either a cantrip or 1st-level Ritual spell that worked exactly like Detect Magic, but only detected thought strands, and may had an option to crack a strand open if you passed the Arcana Check to represent you “lockpicking” the strand. Like this:
Strand Scan
For the duration, you sense the presence of thought strands within 30 feet of you. If you sense a thought strand in this way, you can use your action in one of the following ways:
The spell can penetrate most barriers to detect strands, but it is blocked by 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt.
You can make 1 more attempt to decode a strand you failed to decode starting at 5th (2 attempts), 11th (3), and 17th level (up to 4 attempts)
And I meant a "Skimmer” like thieves and hankers use to clone credit card info in crowds. Like:
Strand Ripper
Until the spell ends, if you spend at least 18 seconds while a thought strand is in this spell’s area of effect, at the end of that time this spell creates a duplicate of that strand which lasts for 8 hours. You can only have 1 active thought strand created by this spell at any given time. if this spell duplicates another strand while one is already created, the older of them is immediately destroyed.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, it can duplicate one additional strand for every slot level above first, up to a maximum of 4 strands.
My idea for the scrambler would have just nullified those 👆 and effects like them within a certain radius.
3rd level is pushing it, now your competing with really powerful Magic’s to *** about with 1st tier stuff. That why the original doesn’t scale at all, it doesn’t need to.
This isn’t a matter of “being hyper focused.” This spell is designed to keep people out, and you want to rewrite it so that it no longer functions at its intended purpose.
To put it into perspective, it would be like deciding that Magnificent Mansion is a bad spell because all it does is make a house to keep people out for a few hours for, but you wanted it to make a barbershop that customers could walk in-and-out of. (Not to mention the unfair labor practices in addition to the exclusionary membership policies.) So you change it to make any kind of building you want of the same size, and it can last as long as you want, but there’s no servants, no food, it isn’t invisible, and there’s no front door…. What?!?
I get what you’re saying, but by having it so that any creature can access the encoded strand without it requiring anything at all turns this spell into Secret Chest….
The entire point behind Encode Thoughts is to put a temporary lock on it and be able to squirrel it away for a good chunk of time. If anyone can pick it up and get at the contents, then it would be safer to leave it in your head. Including that kind of clause turns a spell PCs can use to keep their memories relatively safe ribbon while simultaneously allowing the party members to swap strands as a means of super secretive communications and takes the main safety and security feature off.
That’s the exact part that make a pretty cool little security/warding/utility cantrip and makes it as bad as true strike.
That is the exact thing that Encode Thoughts is specifically intended to prevent. I don’t understand how you’re not getting that. The problem isn’t Encode Thoughts. The spell is generally fine as is. The problem is that either you or your player thought it worked one way, or did one thing, but it turns out I’m that it does the exact opposite of that.
You don’t really seem to want an “Encode Thoughts” at all. You seem to really want “Share Thoughts” or Thought Mail.” Or even worse (God forbid) a memory sharing cantrip that would make the horror of having to look at slideshows of other peoples vacations look like a relief. You want “Memory Board” this is “Memory Lockbox.”
And I keep giving you alternatives that would still let it do what you want while also keeping them safe, but you keep rejecting them. I don’t know why.
I suggested naming your intended recipient(s) so that you could drop the strand for your friends and then they would be the only ones who could get into it (unless someone hacked it with this spell). I suggested that the person accessing the strand has to at least Concentrate on it (as if on a spell) for a minute to crack the strand. Makes it take enough time for someone to potentially stop the creature. That way it could still do what you want without remaking what is supposed to be a security spell and turning it into the least secure thing you could do with your memories.
YOU CAN ALREADY DO THAT EXACTLY AS IS!!! It just means someone else in the party also has to know Encode Thoughts. That keeps it as secure as it already is, annddd lets you drop a trail of ribbons for your friends. Your friends just have to be able to cast Encode Thoughts. If at least 1/2 the party had this spell you wouldn’t be trying to rip the guts out of the spell to make it do something it can already do. For reals. Just give the party a couple of rings that don’t require attunement and allow the wearer to cast Encode Thoughts.. Look at that, now not only can the party share strands like you want. But the strands stay secure so not just anybody can get into it.
Okay. Here’s my final bit for this because either I’m not getting my point across or you just don’t care. You are basically trying to turn this spell into the exact opposite of that spell and then combine both versions together into a single spell….
It’s your all’s D&D, your fun ain’t wrong, knock yourself out. But you asked for opinions. My opinion is that you should stop trying to “fix” encode thoughts by marking it the exact opposite of what it’s sposta do and still leaving in the parts that make your idea not jive. My advice, write an entirely different spell that lets you share your memories with anyone who finds them.
Like, seriously, your complaining that a spell designed to put a combination lock on something sucks because now nobody can get into it. Uhhh… dude, that’s ’cause you put a lock on it…. This spell is a discrete combination bicycle lock on a specific memory for a short period of time. If you want other people to get into it, just give them the combination. (Give the other party members this spell.) That’s what it’s designed for, multiple party member having it so they can share thoughts securely. it’s a firewall/VPN and you want to “improve it” by turning off the security functions.
The two simplest things you can do to make this spell infinity more useful are:
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@IamSposta I see that we are on two different wavelengths of design philosophy that are incompatible. I have listed suggestions that take the ideas of your design to try to bridge the gap but you remain dead set on the idea the spell shouldn't change period. At this point, we are just getting frustrated over not understanding the other, which gets both of us nowhere. I can add a longer duration to try and identify a latent thought strand without magical means, seems like a fitting final compromise.
The final rebuttal I will offer is this: If you require additional items, spells, etc for a spell to have any sort of use at all/more than once, then I feel it is bad design on the original product that it needs to be supported so heavily to gain an iota of use. And like with spells in that camp, no one uses them.
Thank you for the thought experiment and the sound board for ideas. It has brought up some cool ideas for other spells I can give my player to futz around with once they get to a higher level. And if nothing else, there is no such thing as a worthless idea, so maybe others can sift though our arguments and find a method that best fits them.
"Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates correction is stupid." Proverbs 12:1
That’s not even remotely true. I just don’t think making it useless for the thing it is intended to do is a beneficial “change.” At that point, just create something new.
Here’s my final rebuttal. The only thing needed to make Encode Thoughts useful is for more that one person to know the spell. Like I said days ago, it’s like a telephone the phone isn’t a flawed design, it just isn’t useful until you know someone else who has a phone so you can call each other. You want the phone to be useful. YOU MEED TO ISSUE MORE OHONE NUMBERS TO OTHER PEOPLE.
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