I think I've talked about this before but I want to ask again.
I have two ways to scale this much loved cantrip.
1: at 5, 11, and 17 you can make 3 additional stones (per scaling) and as part of your attack you can throw an additional stone (per scaling), make a separate attack for each stone. Only the caster can make this extra attack.
2: at 5, 11, and 17 the dice increases by 1d6 and this applies to anyone who throws the stone. (Still only 3 stones)
Explanation:
the first one would end up being (1d6+mod)*4. This may seem to strong but you are making multiple attacks that can miss.
The second one follows the normal scaling pattern but it's just the same as a normal cantrip. You are just using a bonus action to add your modifier for 3 rounds.
Magic Stone is already a great Cantrip for a number of reasons.
You can literally make magic ammunition/thrown weapons by picking up pebbles. You could be naked and imprisoned and as long as you can get 3 very small rocks you have the means to make magical attacks.
You can give the stones out for others to use which is way more powerful than it first appears.
The attacks are ranged spell attacks, but they do not require a whole action to perform. Therefore a character with the Extra Attack feature can attack with more than one Magic Stone in a turn.
The attack is a ranged spell attack, but as long as you use a sling it still counts as an attack made using a ranged weapon, so things like Sneak Attack and Sharpshooter can be applied to Magic Stone attacks. In addition, ranged weapon attacks suffer disadvantage for attacks made against creatures that are beyond the weapon’s normal range, but ranged spell attacks suffer no such penalty, so Magic Stone attacks made using a sling can be made against creatures up to 120 feet away with no disadvantage.
This may or may not be useful to you, but I’ll include it for you anyway:
I have two homebrewed variations to Magic Stone that I frequently consider. One version improves the spell as a support Cantrip by adding an additional Stone at higher levels, 4 @ 5th, 5 @ 11th, and 6 @ 17th. The other version improves it as an attack Cantrip by adding a +1 Magic bonus to one of the stones @ 5th level, to two of the stones @ 11th, and to all three stones at 17th level. The feedback I have received are as follows: The first variant seems lackluster as it does no additional damage. The second version tends to add too much bookkeeping because of having to track which ones have the bonus and which don’t.
I don’t recall exactly where I saw and how I saw that one, no. But you won’t find a single ranged spell attack in all of 5e that has both a normal range and a long range.
I understood your wording quite clearly. But what you rote is waayyy to powerful to be a cantrip. Being able to make up to 12 Magic stones and grant extra attacks is well beyond Cantrip strength. So is the second revision you wrote. Remember, you could give the stones to the party’s Fighter who could hurl up to 4 stones per turn once they are of a high enough level. if they could hurl 4 stones per turn, and each Stone does 4d6+ damage.... Waayyy too powerful for a cantrip.
Also, to be clear, casting Magic Stone doesn’t actuality include an attack, the spell just enchants the stones and includes some special rules governing how attacks made with those spells get resolved. The attacks must all be made separately using the Attack action.
At 17th level the first variant would be 4d6+20 with the chance to miss some of those attacks. Of course only you can make that attack. This would make it a strong cantrip. This is true. But I was thinking that the balance would be the chance to miss.
The second variant is still restricted to three stones.
A 1d6 + 5 is equal to a 1d10 roughly. It is also non-elemental so it cannot be augmented by such features.
I think the option to just give it more stones is great, a bit strong, though not too OP. It’s basically like a weak version of eldritch blast with the agonizing blast invocation.
Another option is to just increase the number of d6 like most other cantrips, but also keeping the WIS modifier, more or less brings the math to keep it even with most d8 cantrips like produce flame. Without the WIS mod, d6 is quite weak. Many other d8 cantrips include some other trait: ray of frost, shocking grasp…
Another option I’ve thought of, though I’m shit at maths so not sure how it compares overall, would be to give it extra attacks, similar to the first option, but more as a ricochet, so it only bounces after a hit. This definitely weakens it a lot, especially if there is only one mob, but could be fun.
For me, I would also have all of these remove the bonus action, as well as the ability to share the stones.
Also, the bonus action only makes the stones not the attack. So I'm not sure of the point of changing it.
Because by having to charge stones every 3 rounds you can’t use your bonus action for other things (like the new Star Druid’s feature).
Isn’t that what produce flame, thorn whip, create bonfire, poison spray, and primal savagery are for? IMO, the best way to use magic stone is as a rouge, and either take Magic Initiate Druid, or dip.
Also, the bonus action only makes the stones not the attack. So I'm not sure of the point of changing it.
Because by having to charge stones every 3 rounds you can’t use your bonus action for other things (like the new Star Druid’s feature).
Isn’t that what produce flame, thorn whip, create bonfire, poison spray, and primal savagery are for? IMO, the best way to use magic stone is as a rouge, and either take Magic Initiate Druid, or dip.
Artificer Initiate would also work for a Rogue intending to be an Arcane Trickster, since that way it's using your INT modifier. But in many ways the Rogue may be best off just Slinging regular stones with their DEX modifier, unless the DM is kind enough to allow the 60 foot thrown range of Magic Stone to be the short range of a Sling attack using one of the Stones.
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Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I personally apply the “spell attack short range = long range” mentality and just treat slung Magic Stones as having a flat 120 ft range because I personally believe that was RAI.
I think I've talked about this before but I want to ask again.
I have two ways to scale this much loved cantrip.
1: at 5, 11, and 17 you can make 3 additional stones (per scaling) and as part of your attack you can throw an additional stone (per scaling), make a separate attack for each stone. Only the caster can make this extra attack.
2: at 5, 11, and 17 the dice increases by 1d6 and this applies to anyone who throws the stone. (Still only 3 stones)
Explanation:
the first one would end up being (1d6+mod)*4. This may seem to strong but you are making multiple attacks that can miss.
The second one follows the normal scaling pattern but it's just the same as a normal cantrip. You are just using a bonus action to add your modifier for 3 rounds.
Magic Stone is already a great Cantrip for a number of reasons.
You can literally make magic ammunition/thrown weapons by picking up pebbles. You could be naked and imprisoned and as long as you can get 3 very small rocks you have the means to make magical attacks.
You can give the stones out for others to use which is way more powerful than it first appears.
The attacks are ranged spell attacks, but they do not require a whole action to perform. Therefore a character with the Extra Attack feature can attack with more than one Magic Stone in a turn.
The attack is a ranged spell attack, but as long as you use a sling it still counts as an attack made using a ranged weapon, so things like Sneak Attack and Sharpshooter can be applied to Magic Stone attacks. In addition, ranged weapon attacks suffer disadvantage for attacks made against creatures that are beyond the weapon’s normal range, but ranged spell attacks suffer no such penalty, so Magic Stone attacks made using a sling can be made against creatures up to 120 feet away with no disadvantage.
This may or may not be useful to you, but I’ll include it for you anyway:
I have two homebrewed variations to Magic Stone that I frequently consider. One version improves the spell as a support Cantrip by adding an additional Stone at higher levels, 4 @ 5th, 5 @ 11th, and 6 @ 17th. The other version improves it as an attack Cantrip by adding a +1 Magic bonus to one of the stones @ 5th level, to two of the stones @ 11th, and to all three stones at 17th level. The feedback I have received are as follows: The first variant seems lackluster as it does no additional damage. The second version tends to add too much bookkeeping because of having to track which ones have the bonus and which don’t.
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I guess I should have made it clear. I love this can trip. I made this post because I wanted to increase its combat viability past level five.
I will admit that I thought it was still at disadvantage with the sling. Not questioning you, but do you recall where you read that in the rules?
And to reword my first version. To hopefully make it sound easier.
Whatever the can trip scales the number of stones increase by three and the number of attacks the caster can do increase by one.
The reason why the stones increase by three, is to keep the number of attacks the base can trip can do per casting is the same.
I don’t recall exactly where I saw and how I saw that one, no. But you won’t find a single ranged spell attack in all of 5e that has both a normal range and a long range.
I understood your wording quite clearly. But what you rote is waayyy to powerful to be a cantrip. Being able to make up to 12 Magic stones and grant extra attacks is well beyond Cantrip strength. So is the second revision you wrote. Remember, you could give the stones to the party’s Fighter who could hurl up to 4 stones per turn once they are of a high enough level. if they could hurl 4 stones per turn, and each Stone does 4d6+ damage.... Waayyy too powerful for a cantrip.
Also, to be clear, casting Magic Stone doesn’t actuality include an attack, the spell just enchants the stones and includes some special rules governing how attacks made with those spells get resolved. The attacks must all be made separately using the Attack action.
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At 17th level the first variant would be 4d6+20 with the chance to miss some of those attacks. Of course only you can make that attack. This would make it a strong cantrip. This is true. But I was thinking that the balance would be the chance to miss.
The second variant is still restricted to three stones.
A 1d6 + 5 is equal to a 1d10 roughly. It is also non-elemental so it cannot be augmented by such features.
I think the option to just give it more stones is great, a bit strong, though not too OP. It’s basically like a weak version of eldritch blast with the agonizing blast invocation.
Another option is to just increase the number of d6 like most other cantrips, but also keeping the WIS modifier, more or less brings the math to keep it even with most d8 cantrips like produce flame. Without the WIS mod, d6 is quite weak. Many other d8 cantrips include some other trait: ray of frost, shocking grasp…
Another option I’ve thought of, though I’m shit at maths so not sure how it compares overall, would be to give it extra attacks, similar to the first option, but more as a ricochet, so it only bounces after a hit. This definitely weakens it a lot, especially if there is only one mob, but could be fun.
For me, I would also have all of these remove the bonus action, as well as the ability to share the stones.
PbP 🎲: Tyekanik; Moneo Noree; Korba Muris; & occasional DM:
So you want to add the "two bird sling" ability? Wich is not a bad idea. You are still at the problem for single target but as an aoe, maybe.
Also, the bonus action only makes the stones not the attack. So I'm not sure of the point of changing it.
Because by having to charge stones every 3 rounds you can’t use your bonus action for other things (like the new Star Druid’s feature).
PbP 🎲: Tyekanik; Moneo Noree; Korba Muris; & occasional DM:
Isn’t that what produce flame, thorn whip, create bonfire, poison spray, and primal savagery are for? IMO, the best way to use magic stone is as a rouge, and either take Magic Initiate Druid, or dip.
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Artificer Initiate would also work for a Rogue intending to be an Arcane Trickster, since that way it's using your INT modifier. But in many ways the Rogue may be best off just Slinging regular stones with their DEX modifier, unless the DM is kind enough to allow the 60 foot thrown range of Magic Stone to be the short range of a Sling attack using one of the Stones.
Helpful rewriter of Japanese->English translation and delver into software codebases (she/e/they)
I personally apply the “spell attack short range = long range” mentality and just treat slung Magic Stones as having a flat 120 ft range because I personally believe that was RAI.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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