Hello, and thank you for reading this thread. A friend and I were designing a martial subclass with a bit of a twist, and have unfortunately let the core mechanic get out of hand. Hopefully someone here with more experience can give us some pointers to simplify a subclass, for a what is supposed to be a simple class.
Mechanic: The main idea is to turn the usage of martial abilities on it's head by giving them unlimited uses, but limit the timing and invoke penalties for over usage in combat. The character builds power each turn and this increases the damage done while temporarily unlocking abilities that require a certain threshold level. However, instead of draining that power, using their abilities increase it further. The drawback is that after the last ability threshold, the damage caused doesn't increase, and instead the character also takes damage. Only by not using their abilities for a turn and instead choosing to "vent" this power can the power level return to the "safe zone".
Goal: In practice we want this to act like a pendulum, where the character's power level keeps swinging from low to high, or even into the "danger zone". The goal is to stay at the very upper edge of the "safe zone" and try to minimize how much power is gained or vented. The player may need to gamble when it would be worth it to deal max damage and take damage themselves, or play it safe and power down.
The problem with your idea is that most combats in this edition last an average of 3.5 rounds, so there’s not much room for your pendulum to swing.
We actually believe we've covered that by having the player land in either the sweet spot or danger zone in the on the second turn. Along with a dice roll to adds a slight random factor, they would be able to jump between the generalized three states of low, high and dangerous.
Turn 1: Low power, Turn 2: High lower, Turn 3: Decide whether spend this round in the danger zone to do/take more damage, or play it safe and power down, Turn 4: If if happens, you'll be charging back up or going for broke.
I see what your saying about the lack of room for "swinging" so changing what state the player starts in might fix that:
Turn 1: High power, Turn 2: Decide whether spend this round in the danger zone to do/take more damage, or play it safe and power down, Turn 3: Charging up or going for broke, Turn 4: if it happens, you'll be close to death or at high power.
This sounds like a neat concept in a vacuum but I don't see how it would work in a dynamic combat situation.
A Typical Deadly 5e combat: Turn 1: Nova round - players & monsters release their big guns but since everyone is high health there's not much death / destruction yet, rather many creatures are being reduced to 1/2 hp. Turn 2: Danger zone - one or two players are left barely standing or KOed, and one or two enemies are killed but the big threat remains but is quite hurt. Turn 3: Turning point - 1-2 players are KOed, the party must balance healing downed allies or taking down the big bad. Turn 4: either the party must flee or the big bad goes down.
A Typical Hard 5e combat: Turn 1: Testing round - players and monsters try out some standard abilities looking for each other's weaknesses. Both take some damage but are generally fine Turn 2: Focus fire - the players realize the biggest threats (or the easiest to get rid of) and take them out either with focused fire or crowd control. Turn 3: Clean up - the players mop up the remaining monsters.
Building a mechanic with lagged responses (i.e. charge-up) makes it much harder to the player to respond dynamically to the situation. Any over-power mechanic involving self-harm ends up rather difficult to use b/c generally you'll most want to use it when you're already in a desperate situation, but that is when you can least afford to take the damage.
What's the thing that balances this to where it works the same for a ranger as a rogue as a fighter as a Barbarian?
It's for a barbarian subclass, so that's not an issue we're considering, unless it leads to game breaking multi class combinations
Thinking about this some more... I think it is a feature that is impossible to balance. Because the ease and accessibility of healing is so dependent on party composition, and varies through time as well... I don't really see how such a feature could be balanced where just staying in the danger zone isn't the optimal choice. The damage taken from this feature is almost certainly lower than the damage the character would receive from an enemy creature, so the character should stay in the danger zone to kill those enemies as fast as possible...
I played a little bit with an idea kind of like this with the whole "pendulum" type thing for a monk subclass: 1) when they hit an enemy they can enter a "battle state" which gives them basically the Barbarian Rage but without the damage resistance. 2) when they take damage they get basically the rogue "uncanny dodge" but it ends their "battle state".
I never got around to play testing it though, because it felt like a lot of unnecessary bookkeeping for the player.
Hello, and thank you for reading this thread. A friend and I were designing a martial subclass with a bit of a twist, and have unfortunately let the core mechanic get out of hand. Hopefully someone here with more experience can give us some pointers to simplify a subclass, for a what is supposed to be a simple class.
Mechanic: The main idea is to turn the usage of martial abilities on it's head by giving them unlimited uses, but limit the timing and invoke penalties for over usage in combat. The character builds power each turn and this increases the damage done while temporarily unlocking abilities that require a certain threshold level. However, instead of draining that power, using their abilities increase it further. The drawback is that after the last ability threshold, the damage caused doesn't increase, and instead the character also takes damage. Only by not using their abilities for a turn and instead choosing to "vent" this power can the power level return to the "safe zone".
Goal: In practice we want this to act like a pendulum, where the character's power level keeps swinging from low to high, or even into the "danger zone". The goal is to stay at the very upper edge of the "safe zone" and try to minimize how much power is gained or vented. The player may need to gamble when it would be worth it to deal max damage and take damage themselves, or play it safe and power down.
The problem with your idea is that most combats in this edition last an average of 3.5 rounds, so there’s not much room for your pendulum to swing.
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We actually believe we've covered that by having the player land in either the sweet spot or danger zone in the on the second turn. Along with a dice roll to adds a slight random factor, they would be able to jump between the generalized three states of low, high and dangerous.
Turn 1: Low power, Turn 2: High lower, Turn 3: Decide whether spend this round in the danger zone to do/take more damage, or play it safe and power down, Turn 4: If if happens, you'll be charging back up or going for broke.
I see what your saying about the lack of room for "swinging" so changing what state the player starts in might fix that:
Turn 1: High power, Turn 2: Decide whether spend this round in the danger zone to do/take more damage, or play it safe and power down, Turn 3: Charging up or going for broke, Turn 4: if it happens, you'll be close to death or at high power.
This sounds like a neat concept in a vacuum but I don't see how it would work in a dynamic combat situation.
A Typical Deadly 5e combat:
Turn 1: Nova round - players & monsters release their big guns but since everyone is high health there's not much death / destruction yet, rather many creatures are being reduced to 1/2 hp.
Turn 2: Danger zone - one or two players are left barely standing or KOed, and one or two enemies are killed but the big threat remains but is quite hurt.
Turn 3: Turning point - 1-2 players are KOed, the party must balance healing downed allies or taking down the big bad.
Turn 4: either the party must flee or the big bad goes down.
A Typical Hard 5e combat:
Turn 1: Testing round - players and monsters try out some standard abilities looking for each other's weaknesses. Both take some damage but are generally fine
Turn 2: Focus fire - the players realize the biggest threats (or the easiest to get rid of) and take them out either with focused fire or crowd control.
Turn 3: Clean up - the players mop up the remaining monsters.
Building a mechanic with lagged responses (i.e. charge-up) makes it much harder to the player to respond dynamically to the situation. Any over-power mechanic involving self-harm ends up rather difficult to use b/c generally you'll most want to use it when you're already in a desperate situation, but that is when you can least afford to take the damage.
Question: Whats the damage like? what's the thing that balances this to where it works the same for a ranger as a rogue as a fighter as a Barbarian?
I can picture this with Zealot Barbarians as a specific in particular, as being something with no actual drawback.
Blank
It's for a barbarian subclass, so that's not an issue we're considering, unless it leads to game breaking multi class combinations
Thinking about this some more... I think it is a feature that is impossible to balance. Because the ease and accessibility of healing is so dependent on party composition, and varies through time as well... I don't really see how such a feature could be balanced where just staying in the danger zone isn't the optimal choice. The damage taken from this feature is almost certainly lower than the damage the character would receive from an enemy creature, so the character should stay in the danger zone to kill those enemies as fast as possible...
I played a little bit with an idea kind of like this with the whole "pendulum" type thing for a monk subclass:
1) when they hit an enemy they can enter a "battle state" which gives them basically the Barbarian Rage but without the damage resistance.
2) when they take damage they get basically the rogue "uncanny dodge" but it ends their "battle state".
I never got around to play testing it though, because it felt like a lot of unnecessary bookkeeping for the player.