I just wanna start by saying I absolutely LOVE sun soul monk. Its not great, but its pretty decent. I really liked the idea of being able to zip around the battlefield firing energy blasts, but was pretty disappointed that I couldnt fly.
Enter the Way of the Four Elements. The flying fist. The build-a-bear monk. The monk with fireball. aVaTAr tHE LAst aiRbEndeR.
Its got two things everyone loves: flying, and blowing **** up. Glorious.
Unfortunately, its got issues with ki cost. Seriously, its expensive. I dont want to sacrifice being useful trying to be cool.
So naturally I check google, and Im absolutley saddened by how clunky the "fixes" are.
I wanna play one in the near future so I came up with a 3rd level feature that sort of acts like... a discount coupon(?) instead of an expanded shopping list or a dollar store aisle.
Elemental Chakra
At 3rd level, you gain a Chakra Point. Whenever you expend ki points to use an elemental discipline, you can replace any number of those ki points with chakra points. You gain an additional chakra point at 6th, 11th, and 17th level. You regain expended chakra points when you finish a long rest.
Thats technically 24 points to spend a day for level 20, or 6 fireballs. However, nobody ever really gets to level 20, and chakra cant be use for other things that require ki.
I think this would be a simple fix, to encourage using the subclass features(even if its just at least once or twice more a day) without having to stress over being lame or subpar.
Id like to hear your thoughts on it :)
Edit: I made a better one cuz the original one doesnt actually capture the decentfeel I had hoped. This one doesnt encourage using a free use of Fly or Fireball. I do hope its a tad bit better.
Attuned Chakra
At 3rd level, your internal body more readily ebbs and flows with the stream of ki within you. Once per long rest, when you expend ki to use an elemental discipline, you can reduce its ki point cost by 1 ki point. You gain an additional use of this feature when you reach 6th, 11th, and 17th level.
another edit: I just want to point out that my intent is to make a small tweak enough to remain objectively balanced and not custom tailored to my own power fantasy; keeping it decentand not mind-blowingly amazing.
They already get a thematically great cantrip though, I dont think they need more.
The idea was really just about not giving too much to a subclass that I think doesnt really need much. It just seems to stray from the idea of a monk choosing their own features, and enforces the idea of Four Elements as a subpar caster.
I mean dont get me wrong the pact slots thing is absolutely fantastic. If my dm gives me that instead, Im blowing him on the spot. I just likethouht of elevating 4E from "ew" to "...eh" but not too much, with the ~decent~ feel that comes with... well, choosing monk in the first place.
They already get a thematically great cantrip though, I dont think they need more.
The idea was really just about not giving too much to a subclass that I think doesnt really need much. It just seems to stray from the idea of a monk choosing their own features, and enforces the idea of Four Elements as a subpar caster.
I mean dont get me wrong the pact slots thing is absolutely fantastic. If my dm gives me that instead, Im blowing him on the spot. I just likethouht of elevating 4E from "ew" to "...eh" but not too much, with the ~decent~ feel that comes with... well, choosing monk in the first place.
That is something many people are not understanding. It is 24 ki point per short rest at level 20. So if you have a single short rest throughout the day. Even if you have 3 or 4 combats. That's actually 48 Ki you've had to spend for that day on things.
That's the part that everybody forgets.
Ki is one of the most easily renewable resources in the game as far as class resources go.
Now Don't get me wrong. A few more ki to spend is one of my usual proposed fixes for the 4 elements monk. Because it's simple. It's effective and it addresses the one big sticking point to the sub class that is otherwise a lot stronger than most people really think it is. But we also need to keep into perspective of what our fix actually means because there are some dramatic impacts that it has not just on the monks but even more the 4 elements monks power levels. A game that uses quick rest mechanics that makes rests like 10 or 15 minutes is making this resource potentially even more abundant for example. But with typical Hour short rests. There is still some power that is potentially being left behind when people talk about monks and the costs of Elemental Discplines, and there is some power lost if no short rests are used at all.
That is something many people are not understanding. It is 24 ki point per short rest at level 20. So if you have a single short rest throughout the day. Even if you have 3 or 4 combats. That's actually 48 Ki you've had to spend for that day on things.
I actually attempted to address that in the first post by making Chakra Points recharge only on long rests to avoid potential grenade spamming.
Its 4 extra points a day starting at 17 level that cant be used for other monk abilities.
With that being said, i guess it might get crazy at higher levels. I only meant for the subclass to be more viable at early levels. I guess I overlooked just how quickly ki points are replenished. In the campaigns Ive been on, we've only really gotten up to 1 short rest a day.
I dont quite have the experience you guys have but I really do think the small extra resource pool keeps the decent flavor. Maybe if it was just 1 or 2 points instead, itd be less game breaking.
Game breaking depends on a lot of factors. And how you define breaking the game. Low levels are actualy fairly restrictive in certain aspects on everybody. But some classes suffer more from the use, or more often non-use of certain things than others. The number of short rests actually affects about half the classes in different ways. So it can take various different experiences to even realize a problem. For Example. Warlocks are very resource started with no short rests as well. But if they get a couple short rests they can be power houses in their own right and that's why certain more powerful abilities for them are long rest recharges. It's so that they aren't over used. But this variation in the game day from table to table also means that not everybody is aware of some of these things. Some never see the problem with the Warlock... Others don't realize just how much Ki a monk kind of gets. Now I'm not saying Ki cannot be tight and require a fair bit of management. Specially on a 4 elements Monk or that it couldn't benefit from some minor tweaks. I'm just saying try to be aware of what the tweaks are doing.
The subclasses with the best responses from the community have been those that their subclass abilities trigger when you use the core monk toolkit.
Mercy Monk is a good example... you use Flurry of Blows you get a use of your subclass feature (healing hands).
The free use of subclass abilities is another approach they have been going for with Dragon monk UA. Proficiency Bonus number of free uses of an abilities per short rest before you have to spend ki.
I could see one using this approach and giving the unique 4Element monk features (Water Whip, Air Fist, etc...) as options that you can use PB number of times before you have to spend Ki on them.
The subclasses with the best responses from the community have been those that their subclass abilities trigger when you use the core monk toolkit.
Mercy Monk is a good example... you use Flurry of Blows you get a use of your subclass feature (healing hands).
The free use of subclass abilities is another approach they have been going for with Dragon monk UA. Proficiency Bonus number of free uses of an abilities per short rest before you have to spend ki.
I could see one using this approach and giving the unique 4Element monk features (Water Whip, Air Fist, etc...) as options that you can use PB number of times before you have to spend Ki on them.
Except what your calling free use abilities are not free use abilities. It's just another kind of resource and it's a lot more book keeping when you have a lot more abilities each with it's limited number of per rest or daily uses. Which as I recall Dragon Monk is a whole lot of daily use abilities on a class that is mostly based around a shared pool of resources or short rest usage.
It's nice that they are trying something different. And mixed in lightly it could be a nice change. But we should not paint it as anything more than what it is. We relinquish a bit of reliance on Ki for some of them and we gain a different kind of resource that has to be tracked seperately on a different schedule in return. It's give and take. And if they proceed from UA don't be surprised if some of those things gain Ki costs as well. They seem to have deliberately lowballed the costs on some of them so that they could adjust up into costs they feel appropriate instead of dialing back. Though if they do keep them ki free do not be suprised if they nerf some of the abilities in that UA subclass either.
Hand of Mercy is literally free as it's part of Flurry of Blows and costs nothing extra.
When you use it with Flurry of Blows. Which has it's own cost. Which is basically putting a cost on Hands of Mercy. But when you use it outside of Flurry of Blows it always costs you one Ki.
Hand of Mercy is literally free as it's part of Flurry of Blows and costs nothing extra.
When you use it with Flurry of Blows. Which has it's own cost. Which is basically putting a cost on Hands of Mercy. But when you use it outside of Flurry of Blows it always costs you one Ki.
No its free as it does not cost anything extra and you get an extra effect.
Hand of Mercy is literally free as it's part of Flurry of Blows and costs nothing extra.
When you use it with Flurry of Blows. Which has it's own cost. Which is basically putting a cost on Hands of Mercy. But when you use it outside of Flurry of Blows it always costs you one Ki.
Optimus' point was that it is a free add-on to an existing monk mechanic and synergizes well with the base kit. You pay 1 ki point for a core monk feature (Flurry of Blows) and Mercy Monk gives you the option to turn one of the strikes into a heal for no additional cost. Yes, using it alone costs 1 ki but it also presents a way to play into a core monk feature without requiring you to spend extra ki on top of that for the upgrade OR to have to make the choice between using a core monk ability or a subclass ability.
Perhaps unrelated, but it is also a low cost ability for a monk. Quickened Healing (which was added in the same book) costs 2 ki points to use and the heal will generally be about the same value.
Edit: The idea of the Mercy heal as a "free" ability to add onto the base toolkit is similar to Open Hand Technique. Yes, you still spend 1 ki for Flurry of Blows, but your subclass ability has now made your Flurry of Blows more powerful and versatile at no extra cost to you
Hand of Mercy is literally free as it's part of Flurry of Blows and costs nothing extra.
When you use it with Flurry of Blows. Which has it's own cost. Which is basically putting a cost on Hands of Mercy. But when you use it outside of Flurry of Blows it always costs you one Ki.
Optimus' point was that it is a free add-on to an existing monk mechanic and synergizes well with the base kit. You pay 1 ki point for a core monk feature (Flurry of Blows) and Mercy Monk gives you the option to turn one of the strikes into a heal for no additional cost. Yes, using it alone costs 1 ki but it also presents a way to play into a core monk feature without requiring you to spend extra ki on top of that for the upgrade OR to have to make the choice between using a core monk ability or a subclass ability.
Perhaps unrelated, but it is also a low cost ability for a monk. Quickened Healing (which was added in the same book) costs 2 ki points to use and the heal will generally be about the same value.
Yeah basically...
If you go to Mickey D's and get a fish sandwhich and they tell you they have a two for one deal you would say you get that second fish sandwhich for free as you are only actually paying for one.
Hand of Mercy is literally free as it's part of Flurry of Blows and costs nothing extra.
When you use it with Flurry of Blows. Which has it's own cost. Which is basically putting a cost on Hands of Mercy. But when you use it outside of Flurry of Blows it always costs you one Ki.
Optimus' point was that it is a free add-on to an existing monk mechanic and synergizes well with the base kit. You pay 1 ki point for a core monk feature (Flurry of Blows) and Mercy Monk gives you the option to turn one of the strikes into a heal for no additional cost. Yes, using it alone costs 1 ki but it also presents a way to play into a core monk feature without requiring you to spend extra ki on top of that for the upgrade OR to have to make the choice between using a core monk ability or a subclass ability.
Perhaps unrelated, but it is also a low cost ability for a monk. Quickened Healing (which was added in the same book) costs 2 ki points to use and the heal will generally be about the same value.
Yeah basically...
If you go to Mickey D's and get a fish sandwhich and they tell you they have a two for one deal you would say you get that second fish sandwhich for free as you are only actually paying for one.
Buy One, Get One Monk slap healz.
Yes. But if you Go to Mickey D's and you get a Fish Sandwich and they go "Well we can give you the fish sandwich or we can give you this chicken patty" You have a decision to make. That's what Hand of Mercy is. The chicken Sandwich.
There is an additional cost to doing it with your flurry of Blows. You give up the damage the attack would have done to do a small heal to an ally instead. It's still a give and take issue. Sure it doesn't always cost you Ki. But it always costs you something. So it's not a buy 1 get 1 free deal. It's a buy 1 get 1 half off at best.
So you have to make a choice. Do you just want to buy the chicken sandwich. Or do you want to have both and only have to pay half the cost for the chicken sandwich?
I used to Work in REtail. Was even Department manager for one of the bigger chains for a while. These kinds of Mental Games were played all the time To get people to spend more money because they would mentally drop part or all of the cost of something with just a bit of clever play with numbers or how they stated something on an advertising poster to promote the idea they were getting more in some way. This is done so much that I probably spent as much as half my time sometimes just changing prices by a few cents on certain items so people would feel like they were getting a deal or they needed to get it before the price went up.
so this is my first post here on dndb.
I just wanna start by saying I absolutely LOVE sun soul monk. Its not great, but its pretty decent. I really liked the idea of being able to zip around the battlefield firing energy blasts, but was pretty disappointed that I couldnt fly.
Enter the Way of the Four Elements. The flying fist. The build-a-bear monk. The monk with fireball. aVaTAr tHE LAst aiRbEndeR.
Its got two things everyone loves: flying, and blowing **** up. Glorious.
Unfortunately, its got issues with ki cost. Seriously, its expensive. I dont want to sacrifice being useful trying to be cool.
So naturally I check google, and Im absolutley saddened by how clunky the "fixes" are.
I wanna play one in the near future so I came up with a 3rd level feature that sort of acts like... a discount coupon(?) instead of an expanded shopping list or a dollar store aisle.
Thats technically 24 points to spend a day for level 20, or 6 fireballs. However, nobody ever really gets to level 20, and chakra cant be use for other things that require ki.
I think this would be a simple fix, to encourage using the subclass features(even if its just at least once or twice more a day) without having to stress over being lame or subpar.
Id like to hear your thoughts on it :)
Edit: I made a better one cuz the original one doesnt actually capture the decent feel I had hoped. This one doesnt encourage using a free use of Fly or Fireball. I do hope its a tad bit better.
another edit: I just want to point out that my intent is to make a small tweak enough to remain objectively balanced and not custom tailored to my own power fantasy; keeping it decent and not mind-blowingly amazing.
If you are going to give extra resources I would just give spell slots to be honest...
Or my suggested approach and go Pact Slots....then they can use Ki to cast when they run out of slots.
KNOWN
KNOWN
SLOTS
LEVEL
They already get a thematically great cantrip though, I dont think they need more.
The idea was really just about not giving too much to a subclass that I think doesnt really need much. It just seems to stray from the idea of a monk choosing their own features, and enforces the idea of Four Elements as a subpar caster.
I mean dont get me wrong the pact slots thing is absolutely fantastic. If my dm gives me that instead, Im blowing him on the spot. I just likethouht of elevating 4E from "ew" to "...eh" but not too much, with the ~decent~ feel that comes with... well, choosing monk in the first place.
Fair enough!
it's not actually 24 Ki points a day at level 20.
That is something many people are not understanding. It is 24 ki point per short rest at level 20. So if you have a single short rest throughout the day. Even if you have 3 or 4 combats. That's actually 48 Ki you've had to spend for that day on things.
That's the part that everybody forgets.
Ki is one of the most easily renewable resources in the game as far as class resources go.
Now Don't get me wrong. A few more ki to spend is one of my usual proposed fixes for the 4 elements monk. Because it's simple. It's effective and it addresses the one big sticking point to the sub class that is otherwise a lot stronger than most people really think it is. But we also need to keep into perspective of what our fix actually means because there are some dramatic impacts that it has not just on the monks but even more the 4 elements monks power levels. A game that uses quick rest mechanics that makes rests like 10 or 15 minutes is making this resource potentially even more abundant for example. But with typical Hour short rests. There is still some power that is potentially being left behind when people talk about monks and the costs of Elemental Discplines, and there is some power lost if no short rests are used at all.
I actually attempted to address that in the first post by making Chakra Points recharge only on long rests to avoid potential grenade spamming.
Its 4 extra points a day starting at 17 level that cant be used for other monk abilities.
With that being said, i guess it might get crazy at higher levels. I only meant for the subclass to be more viable at early levels. I guess I overlooked just how quickly ki points are replenished. In the campaigns Ive been on, we've only really gotten up to 1 short rest a day.
I dont quite have the experience you guys have but I really do think the small extra resource pool keeps the decent flavor. Maybe if it was just 1 or 2 points instead, itd be less game breaking.
Game breaking depends on a lot of factors. And how you define breaking the game. Low levels are actualy fairly restrictive in certain aspects on everybody. But some classes suffer more from the use, or more often non-use of certain things than others. The number of short rests actually affects about half the classes in different ways. So it can take various different experiences to even realize a problem. For Example. Warlocks are very resource started with no short rests as well. But if they get a couple short rests they can be power houses in their own right and that's why certain more powerful abilities for them are long rest recharges. It's so that they aren't over used. But this variation in the game day from table to table also means that not everybody is aware of some of these things. Some never see the problem with the Warlock... Others don't realize just how much Ki a monk kind of gets. Now I'm not saying Ki cannot be tight and require a fair bit of management. Specially on a 4 elements Monk or that it couldn't benefit from some minor tweaks. I'm just saying try to be aware of what the tweaks are doing.
thats fair
The subclasses with the best responses from the community have been those that their subclass abilities trigger when you use the core monk toolkit.
Mercy Monk is a good example... you use Flurry of Blows you get a use of your subclass feature (healing hands).
The free use of subclass abilities is another approach they have been going for with Dragon monk UA. Proficiency Bonus number of free uses of an abilities per short rest before you have to spend ki.
I could see one using this approach and giving the unique 4Element monk features (Water Whip, Air Fist, etc...) as options that you can use PB number of times before you have to spend Ki on them.
Except what your calling free use abilities are not free use abilities. It's just another kind of resource and it's a lot more book keeping when you have a lot more abilities each with it's limited number of per rest or daily uses. Which as I recall Dragon Monk is a whole lot of daily use abilities on a class that is mostly based around a shared pool of resources or short rest usage.
It's nice that they are trying something different. And mixed in lightly it could be a nice change. But we should not paint it as anything more than what it is. We relinquish a bit of reliance on Ki for some of them and we gain a different kind of resource that has to be tracked seperately on a different schedule in return. It's give and take. And if they proceed from UA don't be surprised if some of those things gain Ki costs as well. They seem to have deliberately lowballed the costs on some of them so that they could adjust up into costs they feel appropriate instead of dialing back. Though if they do keep them ki free do not be suprised if they nerf some of the abilities in that UA subclass either.
Hand of Mercy is literally free as it's part of Flurry of Blows and costs nothing extra.
When you use it with Flurry of Blows. Which has it's own cost. Which is basically putting a cost on Hands of Mercy. But when you use it outside of Flurry of Blows it always costs you one Ki.
No its free as it does not cost anything extra and you get an extra effect.
Open Hand maneuvers are the same.
Optimus' point was that it is a free add-on to an existing monk mechanic and synergizes well with the base kit. You pay 1 ki point for a core monk feature (Flurry of Blows) and Mercy Monk gives you the option to turn one of the strikes into a heal for no additional cost. Yes, using it alone costs 1 ki but it also presents a way to play into a core monk feature without requiring you to spend extra ki on top of that for the upgrade OR to have to make the choice between using a core monk ability or a subclass ability.
Perhaps unrelated, but it is also a low cost ability for a monk. Quickened Healing (which was added in the same book) costs 2 ki points to use and the heal will generally be about the same value.
Edit: The idea of the Mercy heal as a "free" ability to add onto the base toolkit is similar to Open Hand Technique. Yes, you still spend 1 ki for Flurry of Blows, but your subclass ability has now made your Flurry of Blows more powerful and versatile at no extra cost to you
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Yeah basically...
If you go to Mickey D's and get a fish sandwhich and they tell you they have a two for one deal you would say you get that second fish sandwhich for free as you are only actually paying for one.
Buy One, Get One Monk slap healz.
Yes. But if you Go to Mickey D's and you get a Fish Sandwich and they go "Well we can give you the fish sandwich or we can give you this chicken patty" You have a decision to make. That's what Hand of Mercy is. The chicken Sandwich.
There is an additional cost to doing it with your flurry of Blows. You give up the damage the attack would have done to do a small heal to an ally instead. It's still a give and take issue. Sure it doesn't always cost you Ki. But it always costs you something. So it's not a buy 1 get 1 free deal. It's a buy 1 get 1 half off at best.
So you have to make a choice. Do you just want to buy the chicken sandwich. Or do you want to have both and only have to pay half the cost for the chicken sandwich?
I used to Work in REtail. Was even Department manager for one of the bigger chains for a while. These kinds of Mental Games were played all the time To get people to spend more money because they would mentally drop part or all of the cost of something with just a bit of clever play with numbers or how they stated something on an advertising poster to promote the idea they were getting more in some way. This is done so much that I probably spent as much as half my time sometimes just changing prices by a few cents on certain items so people would feel like they were getting a deal or they needed to get it before the price went up.
It's still free
no, it's not. You just want to call it free because your situationally defining "free" to fit.
Free because it doesn't cost anything extra and you get something extra.
wrong and wrong.