To be honest it sounds a little bland, and doesn't seem to forfill to fantasy of the subclass very much. I believe there are already some pretty good suggestsions for a cooler version of this particular subclass, so I suggest you look into some of those, seeing as other people have already done the heavy lifting for you.
To be honest it sounds a little bland, and doesn't seem to forfill to fantasy of the subclass very much. I believe there are already some pretty good suggestsions for a cooler version of this particular subclass, so I suggest you look into some of those, seeing as other people have already done the heavy lifting for you.
Gee thanks. I’ll be careful next time i start thinking of some homebrew to revamp subclasses.
you have any constructive criticism besides its bland? Or about how it doesn’t FULFILL the fantasy of the subclass?
perhaps examples of the fixes or reworks? Links? I looked and didn’t find anything.
Um, you seem to have entirely misunderstood the intended tone of my response... I wasn't trying to be dismissive at all.. I was headed for bed and was genuinely just trying to give you an honest quick bit of feedback and then tell you that there are people who have put in a good deal of time, so if you were looking for an improved 4 elements monk, they are there for you to find... I was not trying to be insulting, I'm sorry you took it that way.
As for being careful or whatever, you did ask what people thought and I just gave my initial impressions, there's no reason to get defensive about it ^^ I'm not attacking you here... I can understand why you may have taken my intentions the wrong way, but if you're asking for people's opinion and then go all argumentative at the first bit of opposition, it makes people not wanna engage with you, don't you think?
The reason I find it bland is that it basically just adds a bunch of numbers, gives more ki, adds more damage, it doesn't really add any interesting new options to use ones elemental powers. You seem to be merely taking the existing subclass and making it slightly better, without atually making it mechanically cooler.
I believe there's a version called Way of the 4 elements remastered and one called Redux, both of which take different approaches to overhaul the subclass... Personally I think a new take should take inspiration from the Dragon monk UA, it solves a lot of what I find to be the major issues of the 4 elements monk, by allowing the elemental abilities to by used in conjunction with their martial arts, rather than taking up the entire action.
I think a couple of your ideas work great as a quick fix where you want to keep the subclass mostly the same but buff it. I am a little confused by "When you gain enough monk levels to hit a level restricted choice, it’s immediately available to you" Do you mean that the monk gets to learn and use all of the elemental disciplines with that restriction when they reach the appropriate level?
Also, taking a moment to plug my own homebrew, but as far as a full rework goes I tried redesigning the 4 elements monk as a 1/3 caster (similar to the Arcane Trickster rogue or Eldritch Knight fighter). Way of the Four Elements [1/3] caster
I remember the user OptimusGrimus had a similar idea, but where they gave the four elements monk pact slots (like a warlock) to use. I can try to dig up the relevant threads if you are interested.
Edit: Also adding this thread where the benefits/detriments of the 4 elements monk was discussed (and argued) at length. Mixed into the thread I think is a few other various ideas that others had on how to "fix" the subclass. It is a very long thread though. Hope it helps
What do you all think about the following tweaks to the four elements monk?
• additional ki points equal to your wisdom modifier, perhaps restricted to elemental discipline use.
I think this is a really nice change if you restrict it to disciplines. Makes it so you don't feel like you have to "go into debt" with your ki points to play with your new features; you immediately get enough for at least one free casting on top of your baseline ki use.
• When you gain enough monk levels to hit a level restricted choice, it’s immediately available to you.
Don't like this at all. It really undermines the character building and personalization aspect of the game. Most subclasses ask you to choose from a set of options so that your character feels more distinct and so that you don't have an answer for every situation.
That said, I do think the subclass limits the number of options you can take far too much, from the very beginning.
• once per turn when you deal damage using an elemental discipline, you may add your wisdom modifier to the damage.
This is kind of unorthodox considering this kind of feature usually applies to cantrips the the subclass has nothing analogous to them. The weakest disciplines are either area spells or single target faux-spells that deal damage at the highest end of 1st level spells. Also Tasha's Guide to Everything already has an optional rule that lets you take an unarmed strike as a bonus action whenever you use ki points as part of your actions, so adding this on top of that seems a bit much.
I have my own set of house rules in this thread that loosens some of the restrictions on the subclass. Feel free to borrow from that if you like.
I think a couple of your ideas work great as a quick fix where you want to keep the subclass mostly the same but buff it. I am a little confused by "When you gain enough monk levels to hit a level restricted choice, it’s immediately available to you" Do you mean that the monk gets to learn and use all of the elemental disciplines with that restriction when they reach the appropriate level?
Also, taking a moment to plug my own homebrew, but as far as a full rework goes I tried redesigning the 4 elements monk as a 1/3 caster (similar to the Arcane Trickster rogue or Eldritch Knight fighter). Way of the Four Elements [1/3] caster
I remember the user OptimusGrimus had a similar idea, but where they gave the four elements monk pact slots (like a warlock) to use. I can try to dig up the relevant threads if you are interested.
Edit: Also adding this thread where the benefits/detriments of the 4 elements monk was discussed (and argued) at length. Mixed into the thread I think is a few other various ideas that others had on how to "fix" the subclass. It is a very long thread though. Hope it helps
Yes I meant that there would be no limitations on number of elemental disciplines known. I understand that it gives quite a bit of versatility, but if we’re going to compare it to a 1/3 caster, they get far less “known” abilities.
1/3 casters start with 2 cantrips that eventually turn to 3, except the magehand added to arcane trickster. Then they also have 3 known spells that eventually hit 13 spells known.
the elemental disciplines are 17 features total which is pretty close to the 13 leveled spells known with 3-4 cantrips. There’s a bit of positive and negative with this comparison as the monk will have more access to “leveled features” but they will never be free to use like a cantrip, even though cantrips will put scale them at higher levels with no cost.
Level 3 available options: 8 features
Elemental attunement. You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice: • Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone. Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire. Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour. Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a I-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you desig nate for 1 minute.
Fangs of the Fire Snake. When you use the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause tendrils of flame to stretch out from your fists and feet. Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by 10 feet for that action, as well as the rest of the turn. A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when the attack hits, it also deals an extra ldlO fire damage.
Fist of Four Thunders. You can spend 2 ki points to cast thunderwave.
Fist of Unbroken Air. You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet ofyou. That creature must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't push it or knock it prone.
Rush of the Gale Spirits. You can spend 2 ki points to cast gust of wind.
Shape the Flowing River. As an action, you can spend 1 ki point to choose an area of ice or water no larger than 30 feet on a side within 120 feet ofyou. You can change water to ice within the area and vice versa, and you can reshape ice in the area in any manner you choose. You can raise or lower the ice's elevation, create or fill in a trench, erect or flatten a wall, or form a pillar. The extent of any such changes can't exceed half the area's largest dimension. For example, ifyou affect a 30-foot square, you can create a pillar up to 15 feet high, raise or lower the square's elevation by up to 1 5 feet, dig a trench up to 15 feet deep, and so on. You can't shape the ice to trap or damage a creature in the area.
Sweeping Cinder Strike. You can spend 2 ki points to cast burning hands.
Water Whip. You can spend 2 ki points as an action to create a whip of water that shoves and pulls a creature to unbalance it. A creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can either knock it prone or pull it up to 25 feet closer to you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't pull it or knock it prone.
level 6 available options: 2 features
Clench of the North Wind (6th Level Required). You can spend 3 ki points to cast hold person.
Gong of the Summit (6th Level Required). You can spend 3 ki points to cast shatter.
level 11 available options: 3 features
Flames of the Phoenix (11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast fireball.
Mist Stance(11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to castgaseousform, targeting yourself.
Ride the Wind(11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast fly, targeting yourself.
level 17 available options: 4 features
Breath of Winter (17th Level Required). You can spend 6 ki points to cast cone of cold.
Eternal Mountain Defense (17th Level Required). You can spend 5 ki points to cast stoneskin, targeting yourself.
River of Hungry Flame (17th Level Required). You can spend 5 ki points to cast wall of fire.
Wave of rolling earth( 17th Level Required) . You can spend 6 ki points to cast wall of stone.
It may seem a little weighted toward the beginning with the 8 options, but I think it evens out. I also don’t agree with the notion that having players choose between the options this subclass offers enough play value to justify the extremely limited restrictions on the number of known disciplines. There doesn’t seem to be enough synergy with the base classes features to make the use of the features feel like a net positive to me, but rather a compromise. The tashas features mitigate this to a degree any allowing the bonus action attack with an unarmed attack or a monk weapon.
what do you guys thing about the notion of being able to use one of your elemental disciplines as a bonus action on the precondition of having crit an enemy creature with your attack action?
Um, you seem to have entirely misunderstood the intended tone of my response... I wasn't trying to be dismissive at all.. I was headed for bed and was genuinely just trying to give you an honest quick bit of feedback and then tell you that there are people who have put in a good deal of time, so if you were looking for an improved 4 elements monk, they are there for you to find... I was not trying to be insulting, I'm sorry you took it that way.
As for being careful or whatever, you did ask what people thought and I just gave my initial impressions, there's no reason to get defensive about it ^^ I'm not attacking you here... I can understand why you may have taken my intentions the wrong way, but if you're asking for people's opinion and then go all argumentative at the first bit of opposition, it makes people not wanna engage with you, don't you think?
The reason I find it bland is that it basically just adds a bunch of numbers, gives more ki, adds more damage, it doesn't really add any interesting new options to use ones elemental powers. You seem to be merely taking the existing subclass and making it slightly better, without atually making it mechanically cooler.
I believe there's a version called Way of the 4 elements remastered and one called Redux, both of which take different approaches to overhaul the subclass... Personally I think a new take should take inspiration from the Dragon monk UA, it solves a lot of what I find to be the major issues of the 4 elements monk, by allowing the elemental abilities to by used in conjunction with their martial arts, rather than taking up the entire action.
That’s fine, I appreciate you taking the time to have even responded in the first place. After having read your response I can see that I read it with the wrong context in mind. There is usually the possibility with text based communication for misinterpretation. Thank you for responding so positively to my unwarranted aggression.
my intent with the tweaks was to unlock the original subclasses restrictions that there seemed to be a generally negative consensus on. The damage dealing features come online too late to be effective per damage calculations. The cost per usage is too high per feature use, especially because it’s based on the same constrained resource pool. The number of known disciplines is too low.
So I figured why not boost the resources by the wisdom stat a monk already wants to have. Why not boost the damage by the stat that the monk already wants, but also cap it’s used to per turn do disallow for fire snake shenanigans. And finally unlock the disciplines known. I mean, it’s a monk of the 4 elements, but the way the restriction is written it’s basically a monk of 1 cantrip and maybe 4 disciplines at level 17.
I thought these relatively minor tweaks, which are based on the monks wisdom stat, would slightly buff this monk’s utility and efficiency in combat. Yes it’s basically the addition of some small numbers, but they’re modifying mechanics that see frequent change and use in actual gameplay. A monk is already keeping an eye on their Ki, a boost to that would mean wonders for monk reliability. I also think that a monk with a limited bonus to ki points is a mechanic the base rules that is sorely missing.
I guess it depends on what you view to be the core issues of the subclass. I absolutely agree with the notion that the abilities are too expensive and some of them absolutely come online too late to be useful, but I don't believe those things are what makes the subclass unappealing.
Beyond the cost there is the issue that subclasses like the eldritch knight and arcane trickster share, which is how to manage a martial character gaining access to magic, without stepping on the toes of full casters. The arcane trickster and eldritch knight are both quarter casters, but I don't believe that their designs are equal... The trouble you run into with half or quarter casters, is that any damaging spells you unlock will be woefully underleveled by the time you get them, and since leveled spells don't scale with character or caster level, they will often have a hard time competing with simply using your martial prowess.
This means that a subclass like the eldritch knight, who is partially restricted to evocation magic, can either chose to cast a damaging spell as a low level caster or act as a high level fighter, leaving much of your subclass spellcasting feeling pointless and weak. Luckily the eldritch knight has a few features that mitigate this issue, but I find that the design remains problematic.
The arcane trickster works much better, as they gain access to spells that do not depend on damage and are far more useful as utility or to give you new problem solving option. This means that your spellcasting merely enhances your abilities and feels incredibly satisfying.
This brings us back to the for elements monk... Most of the spells they gain access to are damaging spells, which means that by half or quarter caster progression, they will always feel behind compared to casters, and since casting one of these spells take a full action like any other caster,it just doesn't feel like an actual enhancement to your monk, it just feels like you've gained some weak spellcasting at the expense of your martial abilities.... And that is the core of the issue to me... That a martial "spellcaster" operates under the same rules as a full caster when casting damaging spells... Because those low level damaging spells are actively competing with your much higher leveled martial prowess, and in the case of the monk, also competes with stunning strike and flurry and blows.
My solution would center around allowing the monk to use elemental powers to enhance your martial arts, to weave spells and other magical effect into their attack actions, similar to how a paladin can do divine smites, or how a bladesinger can use a cantrip during an attack action... A monk should not be giving up their entire action to cast a spell, they should be comboing it up with their attack action, which is why I mentioned the dragon monk UA, since they have abilities along those lines.
I also believe that having unique elemental themed abilities are far more interesting than just a spell any old elemental caster has access to.. I find that 5e too often falls back on spells rather than giving specific unique abilities in cases like this.
I guess it depends on what you view to be the core issues of the subclass. I absolutely agree with the notion that the abilities are too expensive and some of them absolutely come online too late to be useful, but I don't believe those things are what makes the subclass unappealing.
Beyond the cost there is the issue that subclasses like the eldritch knight and arcane trickster share, which is how to manage a martial character gaining access to magic, without stepping on the toes of full casters. The arcane trickster and eldritch knight are both quarter casters, but I don't believe that their designs are equal... The trouble you run into with half or quarter casters, is that any damaging spells you unlock will be woefully underleveled by the time you get them, and since leveled spells don't scale with character or caster level, they will often have a hard time competing with simply using your martial prowess.
This means that a subclass like the eldritch knight, who is partially restricted to evocation magic, can either chose to cast a damaging spell as a low level caster or act as a high level fighter, leaving much of your subclass spellcasting feeling pointless and weak. Luckily the eldritch knight has a few features that mitigate this issue, but I find that the design remains problematic.
The arcane trickster works much better, as they gain access to spells that do not depend on damage and are far more useful as utility or to give you new problem solving option. This means that your spellcasting merely enhances your abilities and feels incredibly satisfying.
This brings us back to the for elements monk... Most of the spells they gain access so are damaging spells, which means that by half or quarter caster progression, they will always feel behind compared to casters, and since casting one of these spells take a full action like any other caster,it just doesn't feel like an actual enhancement to your monk, it just feels like you've gained some weak spellcasting at the expensive your martial abilities.... And that is the core of the issue to me... That a martial "spellcaster" operates under the same rules as a full caster when casting damaging spells... Because those low level damaging spells are actively competing with your much higher leveled martial prowess, and in the case of the monk, also competes with stunning strike and flurry and blows.
My solution would center around allowing the monk to use elemental powers to enhance your martial arts, to weave spells and other magical effect into their attack actions, similar to how a paladin can do divine smites, or how a bladesinger can use a cantrip during an attack action... A monk should not be giving up their entire action to cast a spell, they should be comboing it up with their attack action, which is why I mentioned the dragon monk UA, since they have abilities along those lines.
I agree with these points as I have the same thoughts on 4E monk. Their options for spells are either underpowered for the cost of ki you are spending on it or do not synergize well with the monk toolkit.
Tasha's does allow monks to take a weapon attack as a BA if you spend Ki on your action so that helps now....before if you cast hold person and it failed you were kinda just twiddling your thumbs that turn. Granted that happens with casters too but they also have more variety of spells and get more chances on average to try and cast spells.
The monk specific stuff like Unbroken Air and what not at least paired well with the monk kit overall and were unique.
There are certainly some decently flavorful abilities in concept, but their execution is almost always lacking. Fist of Unbroken air should replace an attack, not be an action for example, it should probably also scale wiuth your martial arts dice somehow.. stuff like that. I also find fangs of the fire snake quite cool, but much too expensive. The way of the four elements is the type of subclass where you read all the flavorful names of the disciplines and get excited, and then when you read what most of them actually are, you get disapointed and sad.
Honestly I think revamping the subclass with an approach similar to the rune knight would be very cool. A list of disciplines which each give an active use (that synergise with your martials arts) aswell as a passive bonus.
And that is the core of the issue to me... That a martial "spellcaster" operates under the same rules as a full caster when casting damaging spells... Because those low level damaging spells are actively competing with your much higher leveled martial prowess, and in the case of the monk, also competes with stunning strike and flurry and blows.
I see them as more complimentary than competing. The unique disciplines cover up some of the monk's biggest shortcomings: they extend your reach well beyond melee range, let you damage high AC targets effectively and let you move or knock prone enemies without giving up damage and without investing in Strength (which monks are too MAD to do.) The area spells aren't for big single-target damage, they're for crowd control, which is part of the monk's intended niche in my opinion.
I really think the subclass would be fine as-is if it had access to more options (you can't even pick an earth discipline at 3rd level), more spells known at a time, and the level requirements weren't artificially inflated to the only 3 levels you get subclass features.
I agree with these points as I have the same thoughts on 4E monk. Their options for spells are either underpowered for the cost of ki you are spending on it or do not synergize well with the monk toolkit.
Tasha's does allow monks to take a weapon attack as a BA if you spend Ki on your action so that helps now....before if you cast hold person and it failed you were kinda just twiddling your thumbs that turn. Granted that happens with casters too but they also have more variety of spells and get more chances on average to try and cast spells.
The monk specific stuff like Unbroken Air and what not at least paired well with the monk kit overall and were unique.
I just want to correct one thing here. With Ki Fueled strike you are not twiddling your thumbs if Hold Person misses. The ability to use Ki Fueled strike is not contingent on the action that used ki landing. It is only contingent on it being used. So Hold Person or any number of other choices could fail but you still used Ki to attempt it so Ki Fueled Strike is available to be used.
Otherwise I want to agree with Inquisitive Coder. Several of the abilities like Fist of Unbroken Air, Water whip, and even Fangs of the Fire Snake Are very complimentary. Adding in new extra effects that the monk can apply. Such as extending reach (which only costs 1 ki, any extra ki is one per attack for an increase of 1d10 damage and doesn't have to be spent unless you want to). Add's in AoE and Ranged... Or adds in different kinds of battlefield control such as with Hold Person potentially locking down a target for a short term duration or potentially a longer one.
More Options and perhaps slightly more ki have for a long time been my proposed solution of implimentation and A couple people can tell you I've participated in long threads on discussing the pro's and cons and small tweaks to 4 elements monk as well as misperceptions about them.
I agree with these points as I have the same thoughts on 4E monk. Their options for spells are either underpowered for the cost of ki you are spending on it or do not synergize well with the monk toolkit.
Tasha's does allow monks to take a weapon attack as a BA if you spend Ki on your action so that helps now....before if you cast hold person and it failed you were kinda just twiddling your thumbs that turn. Granted that happens with casters too but they also have more variety of spells and get more chances on average to try and cast spells.
The monk specific stuff like Unbroken Air and what not at least paired well with the monk kit overall and were unique.
I just want to correct one thing here. With Ki Fueled strike you are not twiddling your thumbs if Hold Person misses. The ability to use Ki Fueled strike is not contingent on the action that used ki landing. It is only contingent on it being used. So Hold Person or any number of other choices could fail but you still used Ki to attempt it so Ki Fueled Strike is available to be used.
Otherwise I want to agree with Inquisitive Coder. Several of the abilities like Fist of Unbroken Air, Water whip, and even Fangs of the Fire Snake Are very complimentary. Adding in new extra effects that the monk can apply. Such as extending reach (which only costs 1 ki, any extra ki is one per attack for an increase of 1d10 damage and doesn't have to be spent unless you want to). Add's in AoE and Ranged... Or adds in different kinds of battlefield control such as with Hold Person potentially locking down a target for a short term duration or potentially a longer one.
More Options and perhaps slightly more ki have for a long time been my proposed solution of implimentation and A couple people can tell you I've participated in long threads on discussing the pro's and cons and small tweaks to 4 elements monk as well as misperceptions about them.
I was saying BEFORE ki fueled strikes you were twiddling.
I agree with these points as I have the same thoughts on 4E monk. Their options for spells are either underpowered for the cost of ki you are spending on it or do not synergize well with the monk toolkit.
Tasha's does allow monks to take a weapon attack as a BA if you spend Ki on your action so that helps now....before if you cast hold person and it failed you were kinda just twiddling your thumbs that turn. Granted that happens with casters too but they also have more variety of spells and get more chances on average to try and cast spells.
The monk specific stuff like Unbroken Air and what not at least paired well with the monk kit overall and were unique.
I just want to correct one thing here. With Ki Fueled strike you are not twiddling your thumbs if Hold Person misses. The ability to use Ki Fueled strike is not contingent on the action that used ki landing. It is only contingent on it being used. So Hold Person or any number of other choices could fail but you still used Ki to attempt it so Ki Fueled Strike is available to be used.
Otherwise I want to agree with Inquisitive Coder. Several of the abilities like Fist of Unbroken Air, Water whip, and even Fangs of the Fire Snake Are very complimentary. Adding in new extra effects that the monk can apply. Such as extending reach (which only costs 1 ki, any extra ki is one per attack for an increase of 1d10 damage and doesn't have to be spent unless you want to). Add's in AoE and Ranged... Or adds in different kinds of battlefield control such as with Hold Person potentially locking down a target for a short term duration or potentially a longer one.
More Options and perhaps slightly more ki have for a long time been my proposed solution of implimentation and A couple people can tell you I've participated in long threads on discussing the pro's and cons and small tweaks to 4 elements monk as well as misperceptions about them.
I was saying BEFORE ki fueled strikes you were twiddling.
So we are saying the same thing.
I apologize. It's my mistake. it read differently to me for some reason. But you are correct. We are saying the same thing.
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What do you all think about the following tweaks to the four elements monk?
• additional ki points equal to your wisdom modifier, perhaps restricted to elemental discipline use.
• When you gain enough monk levels to hit a level restricted choice, it’s immediately available to you.
• once per turn when you deal damage using an elemental discipline, you may add your wisdom modifier to the damage.
To be honest it sounds a little bland, and doesn't seem to forfill to fantasy of the subclass very much. I believe there are already some pretty good suggestsions for a cooler version of this particular subclass, so I suggest you look into some of those, seeing as other people have already done the heavy lifting for you.
Gee thanks. I’ll be careful next time i start thinking of some homebrew to revamp subclasses.
you have any constructive criticism besides its bland? Or about how it doesn’t FULFILL the fantasy of the subclass?
perhaps examples of the fixes or reworks? Links? I looked and didn’t find anything.
Um, you seem to have entirely misunderstood the intended tone of my response... I wasn't trying to be dismissive at all.. I was headed for bed and was genuinely just trying to give you an honest quick bit of feedback and then tell you that there are people who have put in a good deal of time, so if you were looking for an improved 4 elements monk, they are there for you to find... I was not trying to be insulting, I'm sorry you took it that way.
As for being careful or whatever, you did ask what people thought and I just gave my initial impressions, there's no reason to get defensive about it ^^ I'm not attacking you here... I can understand why you may have taken my intentions the wrong way, but if you're asking for people's opinion and then go all argumentative at the first bit of opposition, it makes people not wanna engage with you, don't you think?
The reason I find it bland is that it basically just adds a bunch of numbers, gives more ki, adds more damage, it doesn't really add any interesting new options to use ones elemental powers. You seem to be merely taking the existing subclass and making it slightly better, without atually making it mechanically cooler.
I believe there's a version called Way of the 4 elements remastered and one called Redux, both of which take different approaches to overhaul the subclass... Personally I think a new take should take inspiration from the Dragon monk UA, it solves a lot of what I find to be the major issues of the 4 elements monk, by allowing the elemental abilities to by used in conjunction with their martial arts, rather than taking up the entire action.
I think a couple of your ideas work great as a quick fix where you want to keep the subclass mostly the same but buff it. I am a little confused by "When you gain enough monk levels to hit a level restricted choice, it’s immediately available to you" Do you mean that the monk gets to learn and use all of the elemental disciplines with that restriction when they reach the appropriate level?
Also, taking a moment to plug my own homebrew, but as far as a full rework goes I tried redesigning the 4 elements monk as a 1/3 caster (similar to the Arcane Trickster rogue or Eldritch Knight fighter). Way of the Four Elements [1/3] caster
I remember the user OptimusGrimus had a similar idea, but where they gave the four elements monk pact slots (like a warlock) to use. I can try to dig up the relevant threads if you are interested.
Edit: Also adding this thread where the benefits/detriments of the 4 elements monk was discussed (and argued) at length. Mixed into the thread I think is a few other various ideas that others had on how to "fix" the subclass. It is a very long thread though. Hope it helps
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I think this is a really nice change if you restrict it to disciplines. Makes it so you don't feel like you have to "go into debt" with your ki points to play with your new features; you immediately get enough for at least one free casting on top of your baseline ki use.
Don't like this at all. It really undermines the character building and personalization aspect of the game. Most subclasses ask you to choose from a set of options so that your character feels more distinct and so that you don't have an answer for every situation.
That said, I do think the subclass limits the number of options you can take far too much, from the very beginning.
This is kind of unorthodox considering this kind of feature usually applies to cantrips the the subclass has nothing analogous to them. The weakest disciplines are either area spells or single target faux-spells that deal damage at the highest end of 1st level spells. Also Tasha's Guide to Everything already has an optional rule that lets you take an unarmed strike as a bonus action whenever you use ki points as part of your actions, so adding this on top of that seems a bit much.
I have my own set of house rules in this thread that loosens some of the restrictions on the subclass. Feel free to borrow from that if you like.
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Yes I meant that there would be no limitations on number of elemental disciplines known. I understand that it gives quite a bit of versatility, but if we’re going to compare it to a 1/3 caster, they get far less “known” abilities.
1/3 casters start with 2 cantrips that eventually turn to 3, except the magehand added to arcane trickster. Then they also have 3 known spells that eventually hit 13 spells known.
the elemental disciplines are 17 features total which is pretty close to the 13 leveled spells known with 3-4 cantrips. There’s a bit of positive and negative with this comparison as the monk will have more access to “leveled features” but they will never be free to use like a cantrip, even though cantrips will put scale them at higher levels with no cost.
Level 3 available options: 8 features
Elemental attunement. You can use your action to briefly control elemental forces within 30 feet of you, causing one of the following effects of your choice:
• Create a harmless, instantaneous sensory effect related to air, earth, fire, or water, such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, a spray of light mist, or a gentle rumbling of stone.
Instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.
Chill or warm up to 1 pound of nonliving material for up to 1 hour.
Cause earth, fire, water, or mist that can fit within a I-foot cube to shape itself into a crude form you desig nate for 1 minute.
Fangs of the Fire Snake. When you use the Attack action on your turn, you can spend 1 ki point to cause tendrils of flame to stretch out from your fists and feet. Your reach with your unarmed strikes increases by
10 feet for that action, as well as the rest of the turn.
A hit with such an attack deals fire damage instead of bludgeoning damage, and if you spend 1 ki point when the attack hits, it also deals an extra ldlO fire damage.
Fist of Four Thunders. You can spend 2 ki points to cast thunderwave.
Fist of Unbroken Air. You can create a blast of compressed air that strikes like a mighty fist. As an action, you can spend 2 ki points and choose a creature within 30 feet ofyou. That creature must make a Strength saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can push the creature up to 20 feet away from you and knock it prone. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't push it or knock it prone.
Rush of the Gale Spirits. You can spend 2 ki points to cast gust of wind.
Shape the Flowing River. As an action, you can spend 1 ki point to choose an area of ice or water no larger than 30 feet on a side within 120 feet ofyou. You can change water to ice within the area and vice versa, and you can reshape ice in the area in any manner you choose. You can raise or lower the ice's elevation, create or fill in a trench, erect or flatten a wall, or form a pillar. The extent of any such changes can't exceed half the area's largest dimension. For example, ifyou affect a 30-foot square, you can create a pillar up to 15 feet high, raise or lower the square's elevation by up to 1 5 feet, dig a trench up to 15 feet deep, and so on. You can't shape the ice to trap or damage a creature in the area.
Sweeping Cinder Strike. You can spend 2 ki points to cast burning hands.
Water Whip. You can spend 2 ki points as an action to create a whip of water that shoves and pulls a creature to unbalance it. A creature that you can see that is within 30 feet of you must make a Dexterity saving throw. On a failed save, the creature takes 3d10 bludgeoning damage, plus an extra 1d10 bludgeoning damage for each additional ki point you spend, and you can either knock it prone or pull it up to 25 feet closer to you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage, and you don't pull it or knock it prone.
level 6 available options: 2 features
Clench of the North Wind (6th Level Required). You can spend 3 ki points to cast hold person.
Gong of the Summit (6th Level Required). You can spend 3 ki points to cast shatter.
level 11 available options: 3 features
Flames of the Phoenix (11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast fireball.
Mist Stance(11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to castgaseousform, targeting yourself.
Ride the Wind(11th Level Required). You can spend 4 ki points to cast fly, targeting yourself.
level 17 available options: 4 features
Breath of Winter (17th Level Required). You can spend 6 ki points to cast cone of cold.
Eternal Mountain Defense (17th Level Required). You can spend 5 ki points to cast stoneskin, targeting yourself.
River of Hungry Flame (17th Level Required). You can spend 5 ki points to cast wall of fire.
Wave of rolling earth( 17th Level Required) . You can spend 6 ki points to cast wall of stone.
It may seem a little weighted toward the beginning with the 8 options, but I think it evens out. I also don’t agree with the notion that having players choose between the options this subclass offers enough play value to justify the extremely limited restrictions on the number of known disciplines. There doesn’t seem to be enough synergy with the base classes features to make the use of the features feel like a net positive to me, but rather a compromise. The tashas features mitigate this to a degree any allowing the bonus action attack with an unarmed attack or a monk weapon.
what do you guys thing about the notion of being able to use one of your elemental disciplines as a bonus action on the precondition of having crit an enemy creature with your attack action?
That’s fine, I appreciate you taking the time to have even responded in the first place. After having read your response I can see that I read it with the wrong context in mind. There is usually the possibility with text based communication for misinterpretation. Thank you for responding so positively to my unwarranted aggression.
my intent with the tweaks was to unlock the original subclasses restrictions that there seemed to be a generally negative consensus on. The damage dealing features come online too late to be effective per damage calculations. The cost per usage is too high per feature use, especially because it’s based on the same constrained resource pool. The number of known disciplines is too low.
So I figured why not boost the resources by the wisdom stat a monk already wants to have. Why not boost the damage by the stat that the monk already wants, but also cap it’s used to per turn do disallow for fire snake shenanigans. And finally unlock the disciplines known. I mean, it’s a monk of the 4 elements, but the way the restriction is written it’s basically a monk of 1 cantrip and maybe 4 disciplines at level 17.
I thought these relatively minor tweaks, which are based on the monks wisdom stat, would slightly buff this monk’s utility and efficiency in combat. Yes it’s basically the addition of some small numbers, but they’re modifying mechanics that see frequent change and use in actual gameplay. A monk is already keeping an eye on their Ki, a boost to that would mean wonders for monk reliability. I also think that a monk with a limited bonus to ki points is a mechanic the base rules that is sorely missing.
It's all good.
I guess it depends on what you view to be the core issues of the subclass. I absolutely agree with the notion that the abilities are too expensive and some of them absolutely come online too late to be useful, but I don't believe those things are what makes the subclass unappealing.
Beyond the cost there is the issue that subclasses like the eldritch knight and arcane trickster share, which is how to manage a martial character gaining access to magic, without stepping on the toes of full casters.
The arcane trickster and eldritch knight are both quarter casters, but I don't believe that their designs are equal... The trouble you run into with half or quarter casters, is that any damaging spells you unlock will be woefully underleveled by the time you get them, and since leveled spells don't scale with character or caster level, they will often have a hard time competing with simply using your martial prowess.
This means that a subclass like the eldritch knight, who is partially restricted to evocation magic, can either chose to cast a damaging spell as a low level caster or act as a high level fighter, leaving much of your subclass spellcasting feeling pointless and weak. Luckily the eldritch knight has a few features that mitigate this issue, but I find that the design remains problematic.
The arcane trickster works much better, as they gain access to spells that do not depend on damage and are far more useful as utility or to give you new problem solving option. This means that your spellcasting merely enhances your abilities and feels incredibly satisfying.
This brings us back to the for elements monk... Most of the spells they gain access to are damaging spells, which means that by half or quarter caster progression, they will always feel behind compared to casters, and since casting one of these spells take a full action like any other caster,it just doesn't feel like an actual enhancement to your monk, it just feels like you've gained some weak spellcasting at the expense of your martial abilities.... And that is the core of the issue to me... That a martial "spellcaster" operates under the same rules as a full caster when casting damaging spells... Because those low level damaging spells are actively competing with your much higher leveled martial prowess, and in the case of the monk, also competes with stunning strike and flurry and blows.
My solution would center around allowing the monk to use elemental powers to enhance your martial arts, to weave spells and other magical effect into their attack actions, similar to how a paladin can do divine smites, or how a bladesinger can use a cantrip during an attack action... A monk should not be giving up their entire action to cast a spell, they should be comboing it up with their attack action, which is why I mentioned the dragon monk UA, since they have abilities along those lines.
I also believe that having unique elemental themed abilities are far more interesting than just a spell any old elemental caster has access to.. I find that 5e too often falls back on spells rather than giving specific unique abilities in cases like this.
I agree with these points as I have the same thoughts on 4E monk. Their options for spells are either underpowered for the cost of ki you are spending on it or do not synergize well with the monk toolkit.
Tasha's does allow monks to take a weapon attack as a BA if you spend Ki on your action so that helps now....before if you cast hold person and it failed you were kinda just twiddling your thumbs that turn. Granted that happens with casters too but they also have more variety of spells and get more chances on average to try and cast spells.
The monk specific stuff like Unbroken Air and what not at least paired well with the monk kit overall and were unique.
There are certainly some decently flavorful abilities in concept, but their execution is almost always lacking. Fist of Unbroken air should replace an attack, not be an action for example, it should probably also scale wiuth your martial arts dice somehow.. stuff like that. I also find fangs of the fire snake quite cool, but much too expensive. The way of the four elements is the type of subclass where you read all the flavorful names of the disciplines and get excited, and then when you read what most of them actually are, you get disapointed and sad.
Honestly I think revamping the subclass with an approach similar to the rune knight would be very cool. A list of disciplines which each give an active use (that synergise with your martials arts) aswell as a passive bonus.
I see them as more complimentary than competing. The unique disciplines cover up some of the monk's biggest shortcomings: they extend your reach well beyond melee range, let you damage high AC targets effectively and let you move or knock prone enemies without giving up damage and without investing in Strength (which monks are too MAD to do.) The area spells aren't for big single-target damage, they're for crowd control, which is part of the monk's intended niche in my opinion.
I really think the subclass would be fine as-is if it had access to more options (you can't even pick an earth discipline at 3rd level), more spells known at a time, and the level requirements weren't artificially inflated to the only 3 levels you get subclass features.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I just want to correct one thing here. With Ki Fueled strike you are not twiddling your thumbs if Hold Person misses. The ability to use Ki Fueled strike is not contingent on the action that used ki landing. It is only contingent on it being used. So Hold Person or any number of other choices could fail but you still used Ki to attempt it so Ki Fueled Strike is available to be used.
Otherwise I want to agree with Inquisitive Coder. Several of the abilities like Fist of Unbroken Air, Water whip, and even Fangs of the Fire Snake Are very complimentary. Adding in new extra effects that the monk can apply. Such as extending reach (which only costs 1 ki, any extra ki is one per attack for an increase of 1d10 damage and doesn't have to be spent unless you want to). Add's in AoE and Ranged... Or adds in different kinds of battlefield control such as with Hold Person potentially locking down a target for a short term duration or potentially a longer one.
More Options and perhaps slightly more ki have for a long time been my proposed solution of implimentation and A couple people can tell you I've participated in long threads on discussing the pro's and cons and small tweaks to 4 elements monk as well as misperceptions about them.
I was saying BEFORE ki fueled strikes you were twiddling.
So we are saying the same thing.
I apologize. It's my mistake. it read differently to me for some reason. But you are correct. We are saying the same thing.