My DM and I are having a conversation regarding how Find Familiar works in regards to Perception and Investigation checks.
I'm not finding much in the PHB or DMG that address this.
I was using my familiar to search out some stuff, and he had me role Perception with my Familiar's stats, and without my proficiency. This seemed odd to me since Wisdom/Intelligence is more mental stats than physical. Since I was doing the search while seeing through my familiar, I was expecting to roll the check with my character's stats.
Is there any official clarification to this? (spent 20 minutes googling with no success) :(
Any things to consider as he and I figure out how we're going to handle it?
There's a discussion about this on stackexchange which may give you a few insights.
Personally I feel that you, the caster, are now looking through the eyes of the familiar. As such you are the one who makes the check using your stats. The only caveat to this is if there are physical differences in the ability to perceive: You gain darkvision with your familiar's eyes and you don't have darkvision. The distinction is physical characteristic, not special property.
There's a discussion about this on stackexchange which may give you a few insights.
Personally I feel that you, the caster, are now looking through the eyes of the familiar. As such you are the one who makes the check using your stats. The only caveat to this is if there are physical differences in the ability to perceive: You gain darkvision with your familiar's eyes and you don't have darkvision. The distinction is physical characteristic, not special property.
I agree with this. Also, if the familiar has some bonuses like keen smell or similar, you should be able to do use that but using your own scores.
I think of it as how the perception stat of less intelligent creatures also takes instinct and such into account, which would be overruled. Therefore your perception could be "worse" than the natural perception of the familiar that way. Same goes for investigation checks and such.
Perception checks will use my character's scores/proficiencies. Most other checks (investigation, arcana, etc) will be using the familiar's.
the rationale here is that it's like I'm watching through a video feed, so the more involved checks would be the familiar's bonus.
There's a difference in how he and I understand the spell/checks, so that was the compromise I could get. I'm ok with it since Perception will be the most common I do with him, but I think I would rule that all intelligence and wisdom related checks would use the character's stats. Since those are more about processing and understanding the world around you, and I'm experiencing everything the Familiar is.
Perception checks will use my character's scores/proficiencies. Most other checks (investigation, arcana, etc) will be using the familiar's.
the rationale here is that it's like I'm watching through a video feed, so the more involved checks would be the familiar's bonus.
There's a difference in how he and I understand the spell/checks, so that was the compromise I could get. I'm ok with it since Perception will be the most common I do with him, but I think I would rule that all intelligence and wisdom related checks would use the character's stats. Since those are more about processing and understanding the world around you, and I'm experiencing everything the Familiar is.
Glad you came to the agreement, but I think it should be the other way around. Perception is specifically what you can see or hear; investigation is being able to piece together the bits of information to come to a conclusion - as you've said.
I'd say that your perception is limited to what your familiar can physically perceive. For example, as perceptive as your character might be, if you're physically hindered by having the eyesight of your familiar's mouse eyes, you simply can't see as well. Whereas it's more likely you'd retain your reasoning skills to deduce information in the case of investigation, or recall arcane lore in the case of arcana.
Perception checks will use my character's scores/proficiencies. Most other checks (investigation, arcana, etc) will be using the familiar's.
the rationale here is that it's like I'm watching through a video feed, so the more involved checks would be the familiar's bonus.
There's a difference in how he and I understand the spell/checks, so that was the compromise I could get. I'm ok with it since Perception will be the most common I do with him, but I think I would rule that all intelligence and wisdom related checks would use the character's stats. Since those are more about processing and understanding the world around you, and I'm experiencing everything the Familiar is.
Glad you came to the agreement, but I think it should be the other way around. Perception is specifically what you can see or hear; investigation is being able to piece together the bits of information to come to a conclusion - as you've said.
I'd say that your perception is limited to what your familiar can physically perceive. For example, as perceptive as your character might be, if you're physically hindered by having the eyesight of your familiar's mouse eyes, you simply can't see as well. Whereas it's more likely you'd retain your reasoning skills to deduce information in the case of investigation, or recall arcane lore in the case of arcana.
It kind of depends on how you think the ability/spell works. If you're going along for the ride (as Aiscool is suggesting) then it would make sense that there's a disconnect between what the familiar perceives and what the character would perceive. If it's like a twitch feed the familiar needs to check things in order for you to see it. You may be able to send it messages to check things out, but the actual checking is done by the familiar. But if you're in the cockpit of said familiar, you're doing the steering. Both work equally well, it's just how you look at things.
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.
Since you must use an action to activate your senses through the familiar I can see why you would say it's a "feed" and not that you're in control. It's not that you "dominate" the creature, you look through its senses.
I agree with you. It's the wording: 'See what it sees and hear what it hears' that leads me to believe you're using the creatures physical eyes and ears. If your familiar couldn't see or hear it, then you wouldn't be able to either. As you say, as it takes an action to do, I feel like you're 'transplanting your senses' in that regard.
But it really does come down to what you think it happening during that process.
Bear in mind, though, that failing a Perception check doesn't mean you can't see/perceive something, but that you "missed" it. The target being completely obscured, or invisible, or in darkness while you have no darkvision, etc., that makes it impossible to see. It being successfully hidden (as in having rolled a Stealth check higher than your passive Perception) doesn't mean it's impossible to see, but rather it's escaping your notice. It's why, I think, Perception is tied to Wisdom, and not a stat-less check (as would be the case if it were simply a physical "can or can't perceive" thing). So when using your familiar's senses, I would think you rolled using your own Perception score, with any advantages and disadvantages from your familiar. That is, roll with Advantage if the familiar has Keen Eyes, able to see targets in the dark if the familiar has darkvision, unable to see if the familiar is blind, etc.
Bear in mind, though, that failing a Perception check doesn't mean you can't see/perceive something, but that you "missed" it. The target being completely obscured, or invisible, or in darkness while you have no darkvision, etc., that makes it impossible to see. It being successfully hidden (as in having rolled a Stealth check higher than your passive Perception) doesn't mean it's impossible to see, but rather it's escaping your notice. It's why, I think, Perception is tied to Wisdom, and not a stat-less check (as would be the case if it were simply a physical "can or can't perceive" thing). So when using your familiar's senses, I would think you rolled using your own Perception score, with any advantages and disadvantages from your familiar. That is, roll with Advantage if the familiar has Keen Eyes, able to see targets in the dark if the familiar has darkvision, unable to see if the familiar is blind, etc.
Agree with you about what perception is, but not that it should mean you use your own perception skill. (For clarity, I do rule that the character uses their own Perception skill... but it doesn't always feel correct.)
If the wording was 'you see through your familiar', then I'd have no quibble. But where it specifically states: 'you see what your familiar sees, and hear what your familiar hears', that leads me to believe that you are using your familiars eyes and ears. If your familiar were unable to see or hear something, then you'd be unable to as well. Coupled with 'During this time you are deaf and blind in regards to your own senses'.
That's just the physical sense though. But then I also see Perception as a skill. You might have eyes just as good as the human standing next to you, but if you're good at spotting when something looks out of the ordinary, or used to picking out whispered conversations against background noise... then perhaps that should come into play, regardless of whose eyes or ears you're using.
I see it like this: senses are the camera, and Perception is whoever is looking at the picture. So if you use your familiar's senses, you're seeing the same "picture" they're seeing, but using your own perceptive skills on it. Imagine a conversation between a familiar and its master: master says "What do you see?", familiar says "A bunch of trees, nothing more". Master says "Are you sure? Nothing hiding in them?", familiar says "no". Master says, "Hm, let me see" and takes over the familiar's senses. Master: "Aha, you missed something! See how the leaves don't quite flow properly in that spot? See how they make a sort of outline of a creature? As if someone's hiding there?" Naturally, they were both seeing the exact same scene. But the master, with better Perception, was able to notice there was someone hiding in the tree, while the familiar wasn't skilled enough to notice that.
Also, consider those "Where's Waldo" pictures. Everybody sees the same thing, but not everybody can find Waldo as easily. It's not that less perceptive people don't SEE Waldo: he's there, in plain view. It's that they don't NOTICE him: they're distracted by the visual noise.
I see it like this: senses are the camera, and Perception is whoever is looking at the picture. So if you use your familiar's senses, you're seeing the same "picture" they're seeing, but using your own perceptive skills on it. Imagine a conversation between a familiar and its master: master says "What do you see?", familiar says "A bunch of trees, nothing more". Master says "Are you sure? Nothing hiding in them?", familiar says "no". Master says, "Hm, let me see" and takes over the familiar's senses. Master: "Aha, you missed something! See how the leaves don't quite flow properly in that spot? See how they make a sort of outline of a creature? As if someone's hiding there?" Naturally, they were both seeing the exact same scene. But the master, with better Perception, was able to notice there was someone hiding in the tree, while the familiar wasn't skilled enough to notice that.
Completely agree in this example. But what about being able to hear a conversation on the other side of a door over the sound of a nearby waterfall? Do the physical attributes of the creature you are hearing through make a different here? However skilled you are at noticing when something looks a little out of place - but what if it's whether you physically can or can't perceive something based on the anatomy of the familiar? Particularly in light of 'you see and hear what your familiar sees and hears' context.
I see it like this: senses are the camera, and Perception is whoever is looking at the picture. So if you use your familiar's senses, you're seeing the same "picture" they're seeing, but using your own perceptive skills on it. Imagine a conversation between a familiar and its master: master says "What do you see?", familiar says "A bunch of trees, nothing more". Master says "Are you sure? Nothing hiding in them?", familiar says "no". Master says, "Hm, let me see" and takes over the familiar's senses. Master: "Aha, you missed something! See how the leaves don't quite flow properly in that spot? See how they make a sort of outline of a creature? As if someone's hiding there?" Naturally, they were both seeing the exact same scene. But the master, with better Perception, was able to notice there was someone hiding in the tree, while the familiar wasn't skilled enough to notice that.
Also, consider those "Where's Waldo" pictures. Everybody sees the same thing, but not everybody can find Waldo as easily. It's not that less perceptive people don't SEE Waldo: he's there, in plain view. It's that they don't NOTICE him: they're distracted by the visual noise.
While I understand where youre coming from, this is exactly what I would describe as the difference between Perception and Investigation; the knowledge of discerning what stands out or which minute detail differs from the rest. I do realise that some creatures are more perceptive than others though, like hawks or dogs with senses that are better than ours. How they interpret whatever they perceive is a bit different though. This is why I often ask my players to roll for Perception followed by an Insight/Investigation if they don't figure it out on their own.
Personally I make things easier for myself; if the wizard uses his familiar for scouting, he uses the familiars stat block to roll. I mean, you could say that you use the ability scores of the familiar yet his own proficiency modifier (if applicable) but why bother :P I think there are several ways to truly interpret this and they're all correct :P Whatever works for your table
Yeah, i'm mostly trying to work around the lack of a "proper" percetiveness stat in D&D. The closest thing to "you can see/hear better than normal" is the Keen Sight feature some creatures have. Having Perception be based off Wisdom does not properly simulate how good your senses actually are, although it does work for "how good you are at picking out specific details, particularly ones you don't know you're looking for".
“Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.”
In my view, you must use the familiar’s perception ability using its eyes and ears because you see what it sees and hear what it hears and you aren’t using your senses. As for investigation, it is the familiar performing the investigation pursuant to your telepathic commands. It is still the familiar doing the investigation which you can guide telepathically if they are within 100 feet of you. Good luck.
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My DM and I are having a conversation regarding how Find Familiar works in regards to Perception and Investigation checks.
I'm not finding much in the PHB or DMG that address this.
I was using my familiar to search out some stuff, and he had me role Perception with my Familiar's stats, and without my proficiency. This seemed odd to me since Wisdom/Intelligence is more mental stats than physical. Since I was doing the search while seeing through my familiar, I was expecting to roll the check with my character's stats.
Is there any official clarification to this? (spent 20 minutes googling with no success) :(
Any things to consider as he and I figure out how we're going to handle it?
There's a discussion about this on stackexchange which may give you a few insights.
Personally I feel that you, the caster, are now looking through the eyes of the familiar. As such you are the one who makes the check using your stats. The only caveat to this is if there are physical differences in the ability to perceive: You gain darkvision with your familiar's eyes and you don't have darkvision. The distinction is physical characteristic, not special property.
I agree with this. Also, if the familiar has some bonuses like keen smell or similar, you should be able to do use that but using your own scores.
I think of it as how the perception stat of less intelligent creatures also takes instinct and such into account, which would be overruled. Therefore your perception could be "worse" than the natural perception of the familiar that way. Same goes for investigation checks and such.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
We ended up coming to an agreement.
Perception checks will use my character's scores/proficiencies. Most other checks (investigation, arcana, etc) will be using the familiar's.
the rationale here is that it's like I'm watching through a video feed, so the more involved checks would be the familiar's bonus.
There's a difference in how he and I understand the spell/checks, so that was the compromise I could get. I'm ok with it since Perception will be the most common I do with him, but I think I would rule that all intelligence and wisdom related checks would use the character's stats. Since those are more about processing and understanding the world around you, and I'm experiencing everything the Familiar is.
Glad you came to the agreement, but I think it should be the other way around. Perception is specifically what you can see or hear; investigation is being able to piece together the bits of information to come to a conclusion - as you've said.
I'd say that your perception is limited to what your familiar can physically perceive. For example, as perceptive as your character might be, if you're physically hindered by having the eyesight of your familiar's mouse eyes, you simply can't see as well. Whereas it's more likely you'd retain your reasoning skills to deduce information in the case of investigation, or recall arcane lore in the case of arcana.
It kind of depends on how you think the ability/spell works. If you're going along for the ride (as Aiscool is suggesting) then it would make sense that there's a disconnect between what the familiar perceives and what the character would perceive. If it's like a twitch feed the familiar needs to check things in order for you to see it. You may be able to send it messages to check things out, but the actual checking is done by the familiar. But if you're in the cockpit of said familiar, you're doing the steering. Both work equally well, it's just how you look at things.
Since you must use an action to activate your senses through the familiar I can see why you would say it's a "feed" and not that you're in control. It's not that you "dominate" the creature, you look through its senses.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
I agree with you. It's the wording: 'See what it sees and hear what it hears' that leads me to believe you're using the creatures physical eyes and ears. If your familiar couldn't see or hear it, then you wouldn't be able to either. As you say, as it takes an action to do, I feel like you're 'transplanting your senses' in that regard.
But it really does come down to what you think it happening during that process.
Bear in mind, though, that failing a Perception check doesn't mean you can't see/perceive something, but that you "missed" it. The target being completely obscured, or invisible, or in darkness while you have no darkvision, etc., that makes it impossible to see. It being successfully hidden (as in having rolled a Stealth check higher than your passive Perception) doesn't mean it's impossible to see, but rather it's escaping your notice. It's why, I think, Perception is tied to Wisdom, and not a stat-less check (as would be the case if it were simply a physical "can or can't perceive" thing). So when using your familiar's senses, I would think you rolled using your own Perception score, with any advantages and disadvantages from your familiar. That is, roll with Advantage if the familiar has Keen Eyes, able to see targets in the dark if the familiar has darkvision, unable to see if the familiar is blind, etc.
Agree with you about what perception is, but not that it should mean you use your own perception skill. (For clarity, I do rule that the character uses their own Perception skill... but it doesn't always feel correct.)
If the wording was 'you see through your familiar', then I'd have no quibble. But where it specifically states: 'you see what your familiar sees, and hear what your familiar hears', that leads me to believe that you are using your familiars eyes and ears. If your familiar were unable to see or hear something, then you'd be unable to as well. Coupled with 'During this time you are deaf and blind in regards to your own senses'.
That's just the physical sense though. But then I also see Perception as a skill. You might have eyes just as good as the human standing next to you, but if you're good at spotting when something looks out of the ordinary, or used to picking out whispered conversations against background noise... then perhaps that should come into play, regardless of whose eyes or ears you're using.
I see it like this: senses are the camera, and Perception is whoever is looking at the picture. So if you use your familiar's senses, you're seeing the same "picture" they're seeing, but using your own perceptive skills on it. Imagine a conversation between a familiar and its master: master says "What do you see?", familiar says "A bunch of trees, nothing more". Master says "Are you sure? Nothing hiding in them?", familiar says "no". Master says, "Hm, let me see" and takes over the familiar's senses. Master: "Aha, you missed something! See how the leaves don't quite flow properly in that spot? See how they make a sort of outline of a creature? As if someone's hiding there?" Naturally, they were both seeing the exact same scene. But the master, with better Perception, was able to notice there was someone hiding in the tree, while the familiar wasn't skilled enough to notice that.
Also, consider those "Where's Waldo" pictures. Everybody sees the same thing, but not everybody can find Waldo as easily. It's not that less perceptive people don't SEE Waldo: he's there, in plain view. It's that they don't NOTICE him: they're distracted by the visual noise.
Completely agree in this example. But what about being able to hear a conversation on the other side of a door over the sound of a nearby waterfall? Do the physical attributes of the creature you are hearing through make a different here? However skilled you are at noticing when something looks a little out of place - but what if it's whether you physically can or can't perceive something based on the anatomy of the familiar? Particularly in light of 'you see and hear what your familiar sees and hears' context.
While I understand where youre coming from, this is exactly what I would describe as the difference between Perception and Investigation; the knowledge of discerning what stands out or which minute detail differs from the rest. I do realise that some creatures are more perceptive than others though, like hawks or dogs with senses that are better than ours. How they interpret whatever they perceive is a bit different though. This is why I often ask my players to roll for Perception followed by an Insight/Investigation if they don't figure it out on their own.
Personally I make things easier for myself; if the wizard uses his familiar for scouting, he uses the familiars stat block to roll. I mean, you could say that you use the ability scores of the familiar yet his own proficiency modifier (if applicable) but why bother :P I think there are several ways to truly interpret this and they're all correct :P Whatever works for your table
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Yeah, i'm mostly trying to work around the lack of a "proper" percetiveness stat in D&D. The closest thing to "you can see/hear better than normal" is the Keen Sight feature some creatures have. Having Perception be based off Wisdom does not properly simulate how good your senses actually are, although it does work for "how good you are at picking out specific details, particularly ones you don't know you're looking for".
“Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses.”
In my view, you must use the familiar’s perception ability using its eyes and ears because you see what it sees and hear what it hears and you aren’t using your senses. As for investigation, it is the familiar performing the investigation pursuant to your telepathic commands. It is still the familiar doing the investigation which you can guide telepathically if they are within 100 feet of you. Good luck.