I've got a player who has a character class that has a lot of bonus action abilities to work with. Last night he was curious about if he can use his normal action to use one of his bonus action abilities, effectively letting him use two of these abilities in a round (one bonus action ability as his normal action, and another bonus action ability as his bonus action like normal). When it comes to spell casting, there's some pretty basic limits that keep this sort of thing under control, as at least one of the only two spells he'd be casting would have to be a cantrip, but for other class abilities, is this sort of thing okay?
I remember back in 4th ed, you could cash in actions for bonus actions, but 5th is a slightly different animal and I'm not sure why some class abilities would function as intended if we follow the bonus action rules.
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action. The Cunning Action feature, for example, allows a rogue to take a bonus action. You can take a bonus action only when a special ability, spell, or other feature of the game states that you can do something as a bonus action. You otherwise don't have a bonus action to take.
You can take only one bonus action on your turn, so you must choose which bonus action to use when you have more than one available.
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Wild-Magic Surge Table
27–28
For the next minute, all your spells with a casting time of 1 action have a casting time of 1 bonus action.
So if this happens do you effectively lose the ability to use your action to cast spells as all spells with the casting time of one action become bonus actions and you can only do one bonus action per turn? That seems weird right?
Anyway, some guidance on this would be helpful. From what I can gather, my player really just wants to know if he can use multiple bonus actions in a round so that it takes him less time to set up certain bonus action buffs in less time, but I'm less interested in that than just finding out if/how an action/bonus action conversion can take place and its ramifications.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Last night he was curious about if he can use his normal action to use one of his bonus action abilities, effectively letting him use two of these abilities in a round (one bonus action ability as his normal action, and another bonus action ability as his bonus action like normal). When it comes to spell casting, there's some pretty basic limits that keep this sort of thing under control, as at least one of the only two spells he'd be casting would have to be a cantrip, but for other class abilities, is this sort of thing okay?
Probably. If you're still following the bonus action spell rule, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that'd break. It's hard to say without going through every possible bonus action in the game.
Part of the reason the rules are strict with bonus actions is to avoid analysis paralysis. If you can turn bonus actions into regular actions, the number of action/bonus action combinations you can take on your turn multiplies. That may or may not be a problem at your table.
So if this happens do you effectively lose the ability to use your action to cast spells as all spells with the casting time of one action become bonus actions and you can only do one bonus action per turn? That seems weird right?
Yup. On the other hand, you get the ability to Dodge every turn and still cast any spell you want, or cast a spell and Hide, or cast Hold Person and make an attack against your paralyzed opponent on the same turn.
To the best of my knowledge, in most cases, Actions cannot be used as Bonus Actions, but any Bonus Action can be used as an Action. The label "bonus action" is indicative of how fast something happens during your turn, 2 bonus actions or 1 action + 1 bonus action, seems acceptable to me based on the different tactical choices that can be made.
From what I understand from looking around though, I don't see where you can use a Bonus Action as an Action. If you only use a bonus action ability or spell on your turn and maybe move, you seem to be effectively forgoing your normal action, which is fine. The rules seem pretty hard on when you can do bonus actions.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
From what I understand from looking around though, I don't see where you can use a Bonus Action as an Action. If you only use a bonus action ability or spell on your turn and maybe move, you seem to be effectively forgoing your normal action, which is fine. The rules seem pretty hard on when you can do bonus actions.
Correct.
Here's the sources for my earlier claim about analysis paralysis:
The importance of keeping the game from slowing down to a halt is something Jeremy's mentioned in podcasts and interviews as well. For example, the 3 magic item attunement limit is motivated partly by balance, but it also prevents players from having so many bonuses and special abilities simultaneously that it slows down play. (Plus it's a reference to the Rule of Three from Planescape.)
From the sage itself: You can't use a bonus action as an action. Though they are named similarly, and have some connectivity, they are not interchangable. Also when you can't use an action, you automatically can't use bonus actions, for instance.
Edit: The sage advice thread has been linked..I guess I'll remove my post.
As InquisitiveCoder put it, choice paralysis may be the reason the rule feels so hard and fast, but I like to give the players every tool out there and err on their behalf. Bonus actions are quick things that can be slipped in during combat, so why wouldn't a person be able to use two. On top of that, most of the combinations that spring into mind in the first place are already action/bonus combinations in most cases. Cunning action, bonus dash + cunning action, bonus hide = Cunning action dash + action hide. The only real time it may cause issue is when it comes to spells, but I haven't seen anything game breaking yet (my players are lvl 6).
Interesting. I think there is nothing in the rules that says you can do this, so RAW it is not possible except under Improvising an Action as approved by the DM. That being said, it seems somewhat annoying to be unable to do something that is specifically quick during a time period that allows for longer activities. I feel like it shouldn't break the game to allow it. There is some danger though, so I think some caveats would be needed. Something like:
As an Action you may perform an available Bonus Action (providing any prerequisites are met). You may never use this Action to perform the same Bonus Action twice on one turn, including casting the same spell twice. When you use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of one bonus action, that spell's casting time becomes one action.
That would prevent things like a bard using Mantle of Inspiration twice, monks Shadow Step teleporting twice, or using Healing Word to get two allies healed - but you could cast two different bonus action spells. A sorcerer could still cast the same spell twice if they quickened a cantrip for a bonus action, then cast it again as a normal action.
As an Action you may perform an available Bonus Action (providing any prerequisites are met). You may never use this Action to perform the same Bonus Action twice on one turn, including casting the same spell twice. When you use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of one bonus action, that spell's casting time becomes one action.
If you still abide by the bonus action spell rule you probably don't need to limit casting the same spell twice. The bonus action rule would already prevent you from casting non-cantrips twice, and cantrips generally don't break anything. The only two cantrip bonus action spells are shillelagh and magic stone, both of which end early if you recast them.
As mentioned, you can only take one action and one bonus action plus move on your turn. Activities are divided into action, bonus action or both. There isn't anything in the rules as far as I know that states that bonus actions are faster or take less time (except perhaps the name for the Sorcerer ability to cast action spells as bonus actions ... which is quickened :) ... but that is just a name). All the rules indicate are that you are able to perform a bonus action in conjunction with other actions. Perhaps a bonus action spell is simpler to cast than usual so that you can fit in the required VSM components between doing other things including casting a cantrip or other spell, moving or attacking.
Keep in mind that you can only cast one leveled spell/turn ... any other spells have to be cantrips. So Healing Word twice is already disallowed.
In the case of Wild Magic surge that makes all spells cast as bonus actions then you are correct that the player would be unable to cast any spell as an action and they only get one bonus action. On the other hand, it is a wild magic surge so what do you expect ... most of them are not purely beneficial :)
Finally, allowing bonus actions to be used as actions opens up a lot of possible interactions with archetype special abilities.
- give two bardic inspirations in one turn
- use Misty Step + Fey step to effectively teleport a lot farther (this is a spell + ability)
- a druid/barbarian multiclass could rage and change form on the same turn
- the monk above could still shadow step + use a spell like Misty Step to teleport farther
These may not be "game breaking" but they may change some of the class mechanics significantly by allowing bonus actions to be taken as actions so it is a house rule that you might want to look at carefully.
Activities are divided into action, bonus action or both.
What do you mean by "or both"? All bonus actions are actions.
There isn't anything in the rules as far as I know that states that bonus actions are faster or take less time (except perhaps the name for the Sorcerer ability to cast action spells as bonus actions ... which is quickened :) ... but that is just a name).
The rules for bonus action spells say they're "especially swift." You're right about non-spell bonus actions.
Keep in mind that you can only cast one leveled spell/turn ... any other spells have to be cantrips. So Healing Word twice is already disallowed.
To be super clear (because I've seen many people get this wrong): the actual rule is that if you cast a bonus action spell, all other spells that turn must be cantrips with a casting time of 1 action. There's no rule that says you can't cast more than one noncantrip per turn, and in fact you can do so using Action Surge or a reaction spell.
As an Action you may perform an available Bonus Action (providing any prerequisites are met). You may never use this Action to perform the same Bonus Action twice on one turn, including casting the same spell twice. When you use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of one bonus action, that spell's casting time becomes one action.
If you still abide by the bonus action spell rule you probably don't need to limit casting the same spell twice. The bonus action rule would already prevent you from casting non-cantrips twice, and cantrips generally don't break anything. The only two cantrip bonus action spells are shillelagh and magic stone, both of which end early if you recast them.
Yeah, it's probably not likely to cause an issue, but I think in cases like the wild magic thing there could just be some way to exploit it to cast one spell twice, and that might have unintended results. I guess I'm trying to ensure that no one uses this house rule which has been gifted them to illegitimately do something twice in a turn that they could otherwise only do once - and particularly things with no costs like cantrips or anytime class features.
Overall there remains a possibility of exploitation or unexpected results, but it might balance against avoided annoyance. I'll adopt this into my house rule set and keep an eye on it.
- a druid/barbarian multiclass could rage and change form on the same turn
But you can do that... Wild Shape is an action. And even if you are circle of the moon, you can use wild shape as an action. You just gain the ability to use it as a bonus action. It doesn't override using it as an action.
Activities are divided into action, bonus action or both.
What do you mean by "or both"? All bonus actions are actions.
There isn't anything in the rules as far as I know that states that bonus actions are faster or take less time (except perhaps the name for the Sorcerer ability to cast action spells as bonus actions ... which is quickened :) ... but that is just a name).
The rules for bonus action spells say they're "especially swift." You're right about non-spell bonus actions.
Keep in mind that you can only cast one leveled spell/turn ... any other spells have to be cantrips. So Healing Word twice is already disallowed.
To be super clear (because I've seen many people get this wrong): the actual rule is that if you cast a bonus action spell, all other spells that turn must be cantrips with a casting time of 1 action. There's no rule that says you can't cast more than one noncantrip per turn, and in fact you can do so using Action Surge or a reaction spell.
1) "What do you mean by "or both"? All bonus actions are actions"
I thought that the point of the discussion was that bonus actions were NOT considered actions. That you can't use something labelled as a bonus action as an action. For example, hex is a spell requiring a bonus action to cast. As far as I know, you can't choose to cast hex using a regular action .. you can only use a bonus action. Looking at the effects of the slow spell ... a character can take only an action OR a bonus action and not both. This would tend to indicate that bonus actions can not be treated as regular actions since otherwise the spell would just say that you lose your bonus action (at least according to RAW).
So .. I would tend to say that in general "bonus action" is not the same as "action" and that bonus actions can not be treated as general actions.
However, there are some "actions" that may be taken as either an "action" or a "bonus action" ... Wild shape for a moon druid might be one example since they could change shape using either an action or bonus action (I made a mistake earlier in the thread since I mentioned druid moon shape requiring only a bonus action ... mostly because I've only played with moon druids.)
Aside: the text for moon druid says "When you choose this circle at 2nd level, you gain the ability to use Wild Shape on your turn as a bonus action, rather than as an action." Would you interpret this to mean that Wild Shape is now a bonus action ONLY or can the moon druid choose to use Wild Shape as either an action or a bonus action?
2) Just to be ultra ultra clear though :)
The Bonus Action spell text says the following:
"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of l action."
This means that if you cast a bonus action spell then ALL of your other spell casting actions in the turn can only be cantrips even with action surge.
On the other hand, using action surge to cast one spell and your normal action to cast another spell is fine (there are no limits on spell type for these actions). However, you can't use your bonus action to cast another spell.
A character has only one reaction so they are limited to casting one reaction spell whether it is triggered by an attack (like using shield) or an attack of opportunity (like warcaster) or by some other event (like a bard's use of cutting words), the character gets one reaction for the entire round.
I thought that the point of the discussion was that bonus actions were NOT considered actions. That you can't use something labelled as a bonus action as an action.
Bonus actions are actions, as stated in their rules.
Bonus Actions
Various class features, spells, and other abilities let you take an additional action on your turn called a bonus action.
...
You choose when to take a bonus action during your turn, unless the bonus action's timing is specified, and anything that deprives you of your ability to take actions also prevents you from taking a bonus action.
Bonus actions have their own rules that restrict how they're used, but that doesn't change the fact that they're actions.
A character has only one reaction so they are limited to casting one reaction spell whether it is triggered by an attack (like using shield) or an attack of opportunity (like warcaster) or by some other event (like a bard's use of cutting words), the character gets one reaction for the entire round.
What I was getting at is that you can cast a noncantrip reaction spell on the same turn you cast a noncantrip action spell.
I thought that the point of the discussion was that bonus actions were NOT considered actions. That you can't use something labelled as a bonus action as an action.
Bonus actions are actions, as stated in their rules.
Bonus Actions are actions, but are they Actions? Not all attacks are Attacks, after all. The key to this discussion is whether you can use your Action to activate a feature that says it takes a Bonus Action, and then by extension after doing so can you then use your Bonus Action to activate another such feature.
I think the rules RAW do not support such a thing, but that allowing it shouldn't break things much. My big caveat would be to not allow people to use the same Bonus Action feature twice in one turn.
Bonus Actions are actions, but are they Actions? Not all attacks are Attacks, after all.
The term "action" is overloaded. It usually refers to non-bonus actions specifically but it can also refer to non-bonus actions and bonus actions collectively, depending on the context. Bonus actions are special actions (the rules say so), but you can only take one if a rule says you can and they're not what the rules mean when they say you can take an action on your turn.
Or, to put it differently, "actions" as a general category of things can include bonus actions, but the rules for how you're allowed to take your turn make a distinction between the bonus ones and non-bonus ones.
The rules don't use the term capital-a Action. Some actions have proper names but Action as a proper noun doesn't have meaning in the rules.
A=Action : Everyone gets 1 per turn, in some very special cases 2(second wind, haste action**)
B=Bonus Action: Not everyone gets one per turn and will only ever have 1 per turn. This is dependent on class abilities and things labeled as 'bonus action'. You could have one, you may not have one, it depends. If you don't have an ability that uses a bonus action that you can use on your turn, then you can't do something as a 'bonus action".
R=Reaction: Get one per turn. If you have an ability that you can use as a reaction. Usually an Attack of Opportunity, some defensive ability or spell.
You can do A every turn.
You might be able to do B.
You have a R, if you get a chance to use it.
This is where the dreaded 'Action Economy' comes into play. Even if you get 2 A's in one turn, you still only get one B in a turn and one R. You can't take 2 B's in a turn or 2 R's in a turn. You can't use an ability labeled B as an A. Some A's can be used as B's.
Now, as a DM you can totally change that and I would say most DM's would be fine if you used 2 B's as your A and B. But would not allow 2 A's as an A and B.
** haste action has its own rules on what you can and can't due with that action.
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I've got a player who has a character class that has a lot of bonus action abilities to work with. Last night he was curious about if he can use his normal action to use one of his bonus action abilities, effectively letting him use two of these abilities in a round (one bonus action ability as his normal action, and another bonus action ability as his bonus action like normal). When it comes to spell casting, there's some pretty basic limits that keep this sort of thing under control, as at least one of the only two spells he'd be casting would have to be a cantrip, but for other class abilities, is this sort of thing okay?
I remember back in 4th ed, you could cash in actions for bonus actions, but 5th is a slightly different animal and I'm not sure why some class abilities would function as intended if we follow the bonus action rules.
So if this happens do you effectively lose the ability to use your action to cast spells as all spells with the casting time of one action become bonus actions and you can only do one bonus action per turn? That seems weird right?
Anyway, some guidance on this would be helpful. From what I can gather, my player really just wants to know if he can use multiple bonus actions in a round so that it takes him less time to set up certain bonus action buffs in less time, but I'm less interested in that than just finding out if/how an action/bonus action conversion can take place and its ramifications.
Probably. If you're still following the bonus action spell rule, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that'd break. It's hard to say without going through every possible bonus action in the game.
Part of the reason the rules are strict with bonus actions is to avoid analysis paralysis. If you can turn bonus actions into regular actions, the number of action/bonus action combinations you can take on your turn multiplies. That may or may not be a problem at your table.
Yup. On the other hand, you get the ability to Dodge every turn and still cast any spell you want, or cast a spell and Hide, or cast Hold Person and make an attack against your paralyzed opponent on the same turn.
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That makes more sense.
To the best of my knowledge, in most cases, Actions cannot be used as Bonus Actions, but any Bonus Action can be used as an Action. The label "bonus action" is indicative of how fast something happens during your turn, 2 bonus actions or 1 action + 1 bonus action, seems acceptable to me based on the different tactical choices that can be made.
From what I understand from looking around though, I don't see where you can use a Bonus Action as an Action. If you only use a bonus action ability or spell on your turn and maybe move, you seem to be effectively forgoing your normal action, which is fine. The rules seem pretty hard on when you can do bonus actions.
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From the sage itself: You can't use a bonus action as an action. Though they are named similarly, and have some connectivity, they are not interchangable. Also when you can't use an action, you automatically can't use bonus actions, for instance.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Edit: The sage advice thread has been linked..I guess I'll remove my post.
As InquisitiveCoder put it, choice paralysis may be the reason the rule feels so hard and fast, but I like to give the players every tool out there and err on their behalf. Bonus actions are quick things that can be slipped in during combat, so why wouldn't a person be able to use two. On top of that, most of the combinations that spring into mind in the first place are already action/bonus combinations in most cases. Cunning action, bonus dash + cunning action, bonus hide = Cunning action dash + action hide. The only real time it may cause issue is when it comes to spells, but I haven't seen anything game breaking yet (my players are lvl 6).
Interesting. I think there is nothing in the rules that says you can do this, so RAW it is not possible except under Improvising an Action as approved by the DM. That being said, it seems somewhat annoying to be unable to do something that is specifically quick during a time period that allows for longer activities. I feel like it shouldn't break the game to allow it. There is some danger though, so I think some caveats would be needed. Something like:
As an Action you may perform an available Bonus Action (providing any prerequisites are met). You may never use this Action to perform the same Bonus Action twice on one turn, including casting the same spell twice. When you use your Action to cast a spell with a casting time of one bonus action, that spell's casting time becomes one action.
That would prevent things like a bard using Mantle of Inspiration twice, monks Shadow Step teleporting twice, or using Healing Word to get two allies healed - but you could cast two different bonus action spells. A sorcerer could still cast the same spell twice if they quickened a cantrip for a bonus action, then cast it again as a normal action.
If you still abide by the bonus action spell rule you probably don't need to limit casting the same spell twice. The bonus action rule would already prevent you from casting non-cantrips twice, and cantrips generally don't break anything. The only two cantrip bonus action spells are shillelagh and magic stone, both of which end early if you recast them.
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As mentioned, you can only take one action and one bonus action plus move on your turn. Activities are divided into action, bonus action or both. There isn't anything in the rules as far as I know that states that bonus actions are faster or take less time (except perhaps the name for the Sorcerer ability to cast action spells as bonus actions ... which is quickened :) ... but that is just a name). All the rules indicate are that you are able to perform a bonus action in conjunction with other actions. Perhaps a bonus action spell is simpler to cast than usual so that you can fit in the required VSM components between doing other things including casting a cantrip or other spell, moving or attacking.
Keep in mind that you can only cast one leveled spell/turn ... any other spells have to be cantrips. So Healing Word twice is already disallowed.
In the case of Wild Magic surge that makes all spells cast as bonus actions then you are correct that the player would be unable to cast any spell as an action and they only get one bonus action. On the other hand, it is a wild magic surge so what do you expect ... most of them are not purely beneficial :)
Finally, allowing bonus actions to be used as actions opens up a lot of possible interactions with archetype special abilities.
- give two bardic inspirations in one turn
- use Misty Step + Fey step to effectively teleport a lot farther (this is a spell + ability)
- a druid/barbarian multiclass could rage and change form on the same turn
- the monk above could still shadow step + use a spell like Misty Step to teleport farther
These may not be "game breaking" but they may change some of the class mechanics significantly by allowing bonus actions to be taken as actions so it is a house rule that you might want to look at carefully.
What do you mean by "or both"? All bonus actions are actions.
The rules for bonus action spells say they're "especially swift." You're right about non-spell bonus actions.
To be super clear (because I've seen many people get this wrong): the actual rule is that if you cast a bonus action spell, all other spells that turn must be cantrips with a casting time of 1 action. There's no rule that says you can't cast more than one noncantrip per turn, and in fact you can do so using Action Surge or a reaction spell.
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Bonus actions are actions, as stated in their rules.
Bonus actions have their own rules that restrict how they're used, but that doesn't change the fact that they're actions.
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I assume the player is question is a Hexblade Warlock wanting to cast Hex and Hexblade Curse on a charging foe?
I find myself wondering this a lot, but I always ultimately decide to accept the restriction and use only one bonus action.
Extended Signature
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This is getting complicated:
A=Action : Everyone gets 1 per turn, in some very special cases 2(second wind, haste action**)
B=Bonus Action: Not everyone gets one per turn and will only ever have 1 per turn. This is dependent on class abilities and things labeled as 'bonus action'. You could have one, you may not have one, it depends. If you don't have an ability that uses a bonus action that you can use on your turn, then you can't do something as a 'bonus action".
R=Reaction: Get one per turn. If you have an ability that you can use as a reaction. Usually an Attack of Opportunity, some defensive ability or spell.
You can do A every turn.
You might be able to do B.
You have a R, if you get a chance to use it.
This is where the dreaded 'Action Economy' comes into play. Even if you get 2 A's in one turn, you still only get one B in a turn and one R. You can't take 2 B's in a turn or 2 R's in a turn. You can't use an ability labeled B as an A. Some A's can be used as B's.
Now, as a DM you can totally change that and I would say most DM's would be fine if you used 2 B's as your A and B. But would not allow 2 A's as an A and B.
** haste action has its own rules on what you can and can't due with that action.