The rule for concentration spells and taking damage reads as follows:
"Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage."
So, say the party's spellcaster has a concentration spell up. She gets hit by five darts from an up-casted Magic Missile spell. Is each dart a separate "source" of damage, requiring five DC 10 saving throws (making the chance of a failure pretty damn high), or is it one saving throw with the DC determined by the total damage?
That was my initial thought, and how I ruled at the table last night (it was a wildshaped Druid, so no shield spell). However, the Magic Missile description does specifically say that the darts hit simultaneously, which opens up the argument that it is one "source" - the damage is coming all at once, so it's just one "shock to the system."
(The player didn't argue with me about it, but I felt bad after making her roll concentration five times)
It wouldn't be the first time two of his rulings contradict each other. Five concentration checks from what amounts to a level 3 spell is pretty brutal. Then again, it is a level 3 spell at that point...
I like to view the MM spell working similar to a salvo of missiles each one striking individually.
The necessity to point out that they hit simultaneously is to stop shenanigans where a caster could just hold on to the missiles until they wanted them to fly. It also stops an opponent from pulling of something where they can stop the missiles from striking them in between each missile strike.
As to the save, if I am remembering the properly... If you look at it in the scenario where each missile causes a saving throw, you have a higher chance of failure but lower overall DC (1d4+1)+10 five times avg would be 12. Where as if it was one big burst of damage the DC would be higher at (1d4+1)x5 + 10 making the DC 20.
Now I may be way off base here and doing it all wrong, but the chance of failure appears to be pretty high both ways.
I like to view the MM spell working similar to a salvo of missiles each one striking individually.
The necessity to point out that they hit simultaneously is to stop shenanigans where a caster could just hold on to the missiles until they wanted them to fly. It also stops an opponent from pulling of something where they can stop the missiles from striking them in between each missile strike.
As to the save, if I am remembering the properly... If you look at it in the scenario where each missile causes a saving throw, you have a higher chance of failure but lower overall DC (1d4+1)+10 five times avg would be 12. Where as if it was one big burst of damage the DC would be higher at (1d4+1)x5 + 10 making the DC 20.
Now I may be way off base here and doing it all wrong, but the chance of failure appears to be pretty high both ways.
I think you're off on the DCs. The DC is 10 or half the damage, whichever is higher (not damage +10). So, each individual missile will always have a DC 10. The total damage DC for all missiles will also likely be around 10. Even if you did the maximum 25 points of damage, the DC would just be 12.
I guess the easiest and consistent way to think about this is if you would apply Damage Reduction to each Magic Missile or the damage as a whole. If you apply DR individually then a Concentration check for each missile is warranted. If you decide that a single DR applies to all the damage of a Magic Missile attack then a single Concentration check is warranted. The key is to be consistent.
I guess the easiest and consistent way to think about this is if you would apply Damage Reduction to each Magic Missile or the damage as a whole. If you apply DR individually then a Concentration check for each missile is warranted. If you decide that a single DR applies to all the damage of a Magic Missile attack then a single Concentration check is warranted. The key is to be consistent.
There is nothing in the game that reduces Force damage. In addition, Magic Missile states that each dart does its damage “simultaneously” meaning that every dart does the exact same damage, you roll 1d4+1 once, and they all deal that number of damage like an AoE.
I guess the easiest and consistent way to think about this is if you would apply Damage Reduction to each Magic Missile or the damage as a whole. If you apply DR individually then a Concentration check for each missile is warranted. If you decide that a single DR applies to all the damage of a Magic Missile attack then a single Concentration check is warranted. The key is to be consistent.
There is nothing in the game that reduces Force damage. In addition, Magic Missile states that each dart does its damage “simultaneously” meaning that every dart does the exact same damage, you roll 1d4+1 once, and they all deal that number of damage like an AoE.
Actually, a bear totem barbarian rage provides damage resistance to everything except psychic ...so if each magic missile does 5 points of damage and a raging barbarian is hit by an upcast level 3 magic missile with 5 bolts ... does it do 12 damage (damage grouped) or 10 damage (each bolt separately)?
I had always assumed that forcing multiple saving throws is the intent of Magic Missile at higher levels of play. Once you hit level 10 MM loses a ton of value as a means of dealing damage, but it's still worth holding on to for a few specialty uses, including giving yourself a nearly-guarantreed 3+ concentration checks on a target.
I guess the easiest and consistent way to think about this is if you would apply Damage Reduction to each Magic Missile or the damage as a whole. If you apply DR individually then a Concentration check for each missile is warranted. If you decide that a single DR applies to all the damage of a Magic Missile attack then a single Concentration check is warranted. The key is to be consistent.
There is nothing in the game that reduces Force damage. In addition, Magic Missile states that each dart does its damage “simultaneously” meaning that every dart does the exact same damage, you roll 1d4+1 once, and they all deal that number of damage like an AoE.
Are you saying then if you use MM and target 1 missile on 5 different targets that only 1 target has to do a concentration check?
I guess the easiest and consistent way to think about this is if you would apply Damage Reduction to each Magic Missile or the damage as a whole. If you apply DR individually then a Concentration check for each missile is warranted. If you decide that a single DR applies to all the damage of a Magic Missile attack then a single Concentration check is warranted. The key is to be consistent.
There is nothing in the game that reduces Force damage. In addition, Magic Missile states that each dart does its damage “simultaneously” meaning that every dart does the exact same damage, you roll 1d4+1 once, and they all deal that number of damage like an AoE.
Are you saying then if you use MM and target 1 missile on 5 different targets that only 1 target has to do a concentration check?
No. I said that if you cast MM, it doesn’t matter how many darts you make it how many targets they hit you roll 1d4+1 force damage once and all of the darts do the exact same amount of damage. I also said that nothing in 5e is resistant to force damage, but apparently I was mistaken since Bear Totem is resistant to force damage.
Magic Missile is wierd, if you roll a 3(1d4+1), then each individual dart deals 3 points of damage, rather than rolling the dice separately for each.
Generally, the distinction doesn't matter, but it means that features and items like Imbued Wood Focus technically adds the +1 to every bolt, rather than to just one bolt.
Magic Missile is wierd, if you roll a 3(1d4+1), then each individual dart deals 3 points of damage, rather than rolling the dice separately for each.
Generally, the distinction doesn't matter, but it means that features and items like Imbued Wood Focus technically adds the +1 to every bolt, rather than to just one bolt.
The rule for concentration spells and taking damage reads as follows:
"Whenever you take damage while you are concentrating on a spell, you must make a Constitution saving throw to maintain your concentration. The DC equals 10 or half the damage you take, whichever number is higher. If you take damage from multiple sources, such as an arrow and a dragon's breath, you make a separate saving throw for each source of damage."
So, say the party's spellcaster has a concentration spell up. She gets hit by five darts from an up-casted Magic Missile spell. Is each dart a separate "source" of damage, requiring five DC 10 saving throws (making the chance of a failure pretty damn high), or is it one saving throw with the DC determined by the total damage?
My understanding in your example is that they would make five concentration checks (or cast shield)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
That was my initial thought, and how I ruled at the table last night (it was a wildshaped Druid, so no shield spell). However, the Magic Missile description does specifically say that the darts hit simultaneously, which opens up the argument that it is one "source" - the damage is coming all at once, so it's just one "shock to the system."
(The player didn't argue with me about it, but I felt bad after making her roll concentration five times)
I don't know how much value you place on Sage Advice, but for what it's worth, Jeremy says the intention is for each missile to cause a concentration check.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Thanks. I see he didn't respond to the "simultaneous" argument that folks raised on that thread. It is a pretty rough rule for death saves as well.
It wouldn't be the first time two of his rulings contradict each other. Five concentration checks from what amounts to a level 3 spell is pretty brutal. Then again, it is a level 3 spell at that point...
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I like to view the MM spell working similar to a salvo of missiles each one striking individually.
The necessity to point out that they hit simultaneously is to stop shenanigans where a caster could just hold on to the missiles until they wanted them to fly. It also stops an opponent from pulling of something where they can stop the missiles from striking them in between each missile strike.
As to the save, if I am remembering the properly... If you look at it in the scenario where each missile causes a saving throw, you have a higher chance of failure but lower overall DC (1d4+1)+10 five times avg would be 12. Where as if it was one big burst of damage the DC would be higher at (1d4+1)x5 + 10 making the DC 20.
Now I may be way off base here and doing it all wrong, but the chance of failure appears to be pretty high both ways.
I think you're off on the DCs. The DC is 10 or half the damage, whichever is higher (not damage +10). So, each individual missile will always have a DC 10. The total damage DC for all missiles will also likely be around 10. Even if you did the maximum 25 points of damage, the DC would just be 12.
Ah, thank you for the correction...Too many numbers floating in my head from work and the mistakes of trying to reply quickly.
I guess the easiest and consistent way to think about this is if you would apply Damage Reduction to each Magic Missile or the damage as a whole. If you apply DR individually then a Concentration check for each missile is warranted. If you decide that a single DR applies to all the damage of a Magic Missile attack then a single Concentration check is warranted. The key is to be consistent.
There is nothing in the game that reduces Force damage. In addition, Magic Missile states that each dart does its damage “simultaneously” meaning that every dart does the exact same damage, you roll 1d4+1 once, and they all deal that number of damage like an AoE.
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Actually, a bear totem barbarian rage provides damage resistance to everything except psychic ...so if each magic missile does 5 points of damage and a raging barbarian is hit by an upcast level 3 magic missile with 5 bolts ... does it do 12 damage (damage grouped) or 10 damage (each bolt separately)?
Each instance of damage is treated individually for the purposes of resistance.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I had always assumed that forcing multiple saving throws is the intent of Magic Missile at higher levels of play. Once you hit level 10 MM loses a ton of value as a means of dealing damage, but it's still worth holding on to for a few specialty uses, including giving yourself a nearly-guarantreed 3+ concentration checks on a target.
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Are you saying then if you use MM and target 1 missile on 5 different targets that only 1 target has to do a concentration check?
No. I said that if you cast MM, it doesn’t matter how many darts you make it how many targets they hit you roll 1d4+1 force damage once and all of the darts do the exact same amount of damage. I also said that nothing in 5e is resistant to force damage, but apparently I was mistaken since Bear Totem is resistant to force damage.
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Why would you roll the attack of 5 MM only once? What would be the precedent for rolling 5d4+5 and only taking the roll of 1d4 ?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Sageadvice:
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/774030989894955008?lang=en
Magic Missile is wierd, if you roll a 3(1d4+1), then each individual dart deals 3 points of damage, rather than rolling the dice separately for each.
Generally, the distinction doesn't matter, but it means that features and items like Imbued Wood Focus technically adds the +1 to every bolt, rather than to just one bolt.
Because of the word “simultaneously” it therefore technically follows the same rules that govern AoEs like Fireball.
This^^^
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