If I have the blind fighting feet (10ft blindsight) and am standing at the edge (edit: or withing 10ft of it) of a darkness spell, can I see outside of the darkness?
If I have the blind fighting feet (10ft blindsight) and am standing at the edge (edit: or withing 10ft of it) of a darkness spell, can I see outside of the darkness?
no, blindsight isn't actually sight, at least it's not physical sight, thus it'd have no effect on normal sight outside of the range of blindsight itself. Devil's Sight and Truesight however can see in both normal and magical darkness.
Bad wording from my side: can I combine blindsight and normal sight? Like smelling, hearing and seeing can be combined? Blindsight until the edge of Darkness, normal sight outside of it?
That's not how they work. They're two separate senses. Your blindsight is usable out to its range, and does nothing beyond that. Meanwhile your regular sight is blocked by the darkness.
You can always see outside of the Darkness of a Darkness spell unless something is actually blocking your Line of Sight. That's the whole reason why the spell description (especially the 2014 version of it) goes through the trouble to describe a scenario where you cast the spell onto an object that you carry around with you and how you can cover it up or not depending on your needs. Being inside of a Darkness spell is a buff. It makes it harder for someone else to see you.
Two contradictory notions, if I am not mistaken. Does a small slice of Darkness block view? It is magic, not physics, so maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. Looks like in the end it rests on the DM's narrow shoulders. But thank you :-)
You can always see outside of the Darkness of a Darkness spell unless something is actually blocking your Line of Sight. That's the whole reason why the spell description (especially the 2014 version of it) goes through the trouble to describe a scenario where you cast the spell onto an object that you carry around with you and how you can cover it up or not depending on your needs. Being inside of a Darkness spell is a buff. It makes it harder for someone else to see you.
Darkness itself blocks line of sight, it fills the sphere, it is not a one-way wall at the boundary of the spell but rather a complete dark area where light can not exist (a stronger light like daylight would dispel Darkness). Additionally the spell prohibits carried or worn items.
magical Darkness spreads from a point within range and fills a 15-foot-radiusSphere. Darkvision can’t see through it, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it.
Normal vision can't see through darkness, magical or non-magical, Darkvision can't see through the darkness spell specifically, so normal sight is blocked. You need a special sense to see through the darkness spell or having a feature like Shadow Warrior that lets you see in your own darkness spell, or something like Devil's Sight or True Sight.
Alternatively, you cast the spell on an object that isn’t being worn or carried
There is an argument that you could then pick up or wear the object after casting but as I see it, it's intentionally written as to prohibit that specifically.
Darkness itself blocks line of sight, it fills the sphere, it is not a one-way wall at the boundary of the spell but rather a complete dark area where light can not exist (a stronger light like daylight would dispel Darkness). Additionally the spell prohibits carried or worn items.
magical Darkness spreads from a point within range and fills a 15-foot-radiusSphere. Darkvision can’t see through it, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it.
That's incorrect. The sphere is filled with an effect that is the same as mundane Darkness except for the ways that are explicitly mentioned by the spell description such as its interaction with Darkvision and so on. This Darkness is considered to be magical for the purposes of something like a Detect Magic spell but otherwise has no difference from mundane Darkness other than what's actually written.
Normal vision can't see through darkness, magical or non-magical,
That's incorrect. Mundane Darkness just creates a Heavily Obscured area which just means that that area itself is obscured from view. From inside such an area, you can still see everything that's outside of it.
Heavily Obscured
You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
Rest assured, when outdoors on a clear night, you can easily look up and see the stars.
Alternatively, you cast the spell on an object that isn’t being worn or carried
There is an argument that you could then pick up or wear the object after casting but as I see it, it's intentionally written as to prohibit that specifically.
No, it's not. The point of this is to prevent such things as casting the spell onto the Giant's belt buckle or onto the bugbear's weapon or whatever if there was some reason why you wanted the enemy to not be able to see whatever is very close to it or whatever. It's very clear that you can pick up an object and carry it with you after the spell is cast upon it (this was even more obvious in the 2014 version). The idea is that you cover it up whenever you need to examine things that are nearby and then uncover it whenever you want to be concealed within it (like during ranged combat).
Darkness itself blocks line of sight, it fills the sphere, it is not a one-way wall at the boundary of the spell but rather a complete dark area where light can not exist (a stronger light like daylight would dispel Darkness). Additionally the spell prohibits carried or worn items.
magical Darkness spreads from a point within range and fills a 15-foot-radiusSphere. Darkvision can’t see through it, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it.
That's incorrect. The sphere is filled with an effect that is the same as mundane Darkness except for the ways that are explicitly mentioned by the spell description such as its interaction with Darkvision and so on. This Darkness is considered to be magical for the purposes of something like a Detect Magic spell but otherwise has no difference from mundane Darkness other than what's actually written.
Normal vision can't see through darkness, magical or non-magical,
That's incorrect. Mundane Darkness just creates a Heavily Obscured area which just means that that area itself is obscured from view. From inside such an area, you can still see everything that's outside of it.
Heavily Obscured
You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
Rest assured, when outdoors on a clear night, you can easily look up and see the stars.
Alternatively, you cast the spell on an object that isn’t being worn or carried
There is an argument that you could then pick up or wear the object after casting but as I see it, it's intentionally written as to prohibit that specifically.
No, it's not. The point of this is to prevent such things as casting the spell onto the Giant's belt buckle or onto the bugbear's weapon or whatever if there was some reason why you wanted the enemy to not be able to see whatever is very close to it or whatever. It's very clear that you can pick up an object and carry it with you after the spell is cast upon it (this was even more obvious in the 2014 version). The idea is that you cover it up whenever you need to examine things that are nearby and then uncover it whenever you want to be concealed within it (like during ranged combat).
According to the rules, Darkness is Opaque, which means you would not be able to see the stars through and area of darkness, it's the rules, RAW.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque
This said, it depends on what you consider an area to be filled with Darkness is, is the area between you and the stars actually an area of darkness? Probably not. So from that perspective you can see the stars.
An area that is definitely filled with darkness however is the sphere/emanation created by the darkness spell.
Off of this one clear statement in the PHB, it is obvious who is incorrect here.
And yes, the rules are a @#! mess. To put it courteously.
They lead to energetic discussions. That's not what the game is meant to be like.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through. There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check. But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through. There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check. But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
Darkness is not a one-way mirror, it blocks seeing out just as much as it blocks seeing in.
I almost feel as the Darkness spell is like putting on those bed time solid cloths and then adding a bag over your head. Blindsight allows someone to stand next to you describing what is around you. So you have a good sense what is around, but you are still somewhat limited. Truesight is where you have no blindfold nor bag over your head, but everyone else does.
So if you are in darkness, you have the bag over your head. So none of this 1" inside so you can see x.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through. There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check. But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
Darkness is not a one-way mirror, it blocks seeing out just as much as it blocks seeing in.
Well, I would not have asked if I followed that simplistic approach.
That sort of Darkness has proven to be just annoying, not fun, so not in the spirit of DnD imo.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through. There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check. But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
Darkness is not a one-way mirror, it blocks seeing out just as much as it blocks seeing in.
Well, I would not have asked if I followed that simplistic approach.
That sort of Darkness has proven to be just annoying, not fun, so not in the spirit of DnD imo.
Anyway, we all can play as we like :-)
You're free to homebrew anything for your table and encouraged to do so if it makes things better for your table.
However this forum is for discussion of rules and game mechanics and so it's a discussion of how RAW/RAI is intended to work where the darkness spell is intended to be an area that creatures can neither see into or out of, unless they process a special sense.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through. There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check. But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
Darkness is not a one-way mirror, it blocks seeing out just as much as it blocks seeing in.
Well, I would not have asked if I followed that simplistic approach.
That sort of Darkness has proven to be just annoying, not fun, so not in the spirit of DnD imo.
Anyway, we all can play as we like :-)
You're free to homebrew anything for your table and encouraged to do so if it makes things better for your table.
However this forum is for discussion of rules and game mechanics and so it's a discussion of how RAW/RAI is intended to work where the darkness spell is intended to be an area that creatures can neither see into or out of, unless they process a special sense.
Like the blind fighting feet. Which brings us back to square 1 :-)
which to answer the question, no, blindsight doesn't allow a person to see past darkness.
So if somebody had 120 darkvision, 60 foot blindsight and were stood next to an area of magical darkness created by the darkness spell, they could see past the darkness spell up to the 60 foot of blindsight but can not see past the darkness for the 120 foot darkvision. The same is true for being inside of the darkness spell, you could "see" up things up to the 60 foot of blindsight but not up to the 120 foot of darkvision.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through. There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check. But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
Darkness is not a one-way mirror, it blocks seeing out just as much as it blocks seeing in.
Well, I would not have asked if I followed that simplistic approach.
That sort of Darkness has proven to be just annoying, not fun, so not in the spirit of DnD imo.
Anyway, we all can play as we like :-)
You're free to homebrew anything for your table and encouraged to do so if it makes things better for your table.
However this forum is for discussion of rules and game mechanics and so it's a discussion of how RAW/RAI is intended to work where the darkness spell is intended to be an area that creatures can neither see into or out of, unless they process a special sense.
Like the blind fighting feet. Which brings us back to square 1 :-)
That is why darkness is like a bag over your head and blindsight is a spotter giving you a description of what is near. Truesight removes the bag so you can see.
A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque
No. It's clear that that's not what's intended and that's not what's happening here in context. This line in the main text is meant to be just a flavor text transition / introductory description of the concept and how it differs from the previous concept of a Lightly Obscured area. This line does not appear at all within the Rules Glossary entry for this concept, which is where the actual game mechanics for it are listed.
Further, this was intentionally changed away from the phrase "blocks vision entirely" that appeared in the 2014 rules (after some cycles of errata if I recall) presumably because it was never the intent that you cannot see through the area -- only that you cannot see what is within the area, which is the actual concept of an obscured area in this game. The concept that dictates whether or not you can see through things is covered by the rules and mechanics for Line of Sight, which is an entirely different rule.
So, in context, this description of the area being "opaque" is an attempt to describe how well you can see what is within the area (not at all) in comparison to how well you can see what is within a Lightly Obscured area (you can see things there, but with some difficulty / disadvantage).
Again, if you just use the rules and mechanics that are laid out clearly in the Rules Glossary for these concepts then you will be using the correct and intended rules and mechanics:
Lightly Obscured
You have Disadvantage on Wisdom (Perception) checks to see something in a Lightly Obscured space.
. . .
Heavily Obscured
You have the Blinded condition while trying to see something in a Heavily Obscured space.
It is the area itself that is obscured from view.
DMs should adjudicate issues related to line of sight by using the guidelines in the DMG which discuss Line of Sight instead of trying to apply the rules for obscured areas to that.
Line of Sight
To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.
If I have the blind fighting feet (10ft blindsight) and am standing at the edge (edit: or withing 10ft of it) of a darkness spell, can I see outside of the darkness?
If I have blindsight with a 10ft range and am standing inside an area of heavy obscurement, but only 5ft from the edge: could I target a creature in bright light 20ft away? It feels like this should be possible if I have some sort of magic vision that allows me to pierce a certain amount of obscurement. But maybe not if my blindsight instead derives from a vibration sense or something.
And I shared there this conversation with the Dev:
@seanbonney Cast Darkness on dragon's neck, head w/in the 15' radius. Does 60' blindsight allow it to see a tower 500 ft away? @JeremyECrawfordBlindsight works only within its radius. @skullmandible does this apply to magical darkness as well? can you see things on the other side of it? @JeremyECrawford A heavily obscured area, like darkness, blocks vision entirely (see PH, 183).
This debate about how Darkness affects vision pops up from time to time. My interpretation is similar to that of most people in this thread, but if you have time, my humble recommendation would be to revisit similar threads and try to get a sense of the consensus on your own, regardless of how you want to rule it at your table:
If I have the blind fighting feet (10ft blindsight) and am standing at the edge (edit: or withing 10ft of it) of a darkness spell, can I see outside of the darkness?
no, blindsight isn't actually sight, at least it's not physical sight, thus it'd have no effect on normal sight outside of the range of blindsight itself. Devil's Sight and Truesight however can see in both normal and magical darkness.
Bad wording from my side: can I combine blindsight and normal sight? Like smelling, hearing and seeing can be combined? Blindsight until the edge of Darkness, normal sight outside of it?
That's not how they work. They're two separate senses. Your blindsight is usable out to its range, and does nothing beyond that. Meanwhile your regular sight is blocked by the darkness.
You can always see outside of the Darkness of a Darkness spell unless something is actually blocking your Line of Sight. That's the whole reason why the spell description (especially the 2014 version of it) goes through the trouble to describe a scenario where you cast the spell onto an object that you carry around with you and how you can cover it up or not depending on your needs. Being inside of a Darkness spell is a buff. It makes it harder for someone else to see you.
Two contradictory notions, if I am not mistaken. Does a small slice of Darkness block view? It is magic, not physics, so maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
Looks like in the end it rests on the DM's narrow shoulders.
But thank you :-)
Darkness itself blocks line of sight, it fills the sphere, it is not a one-way wall at the boundary of the spell but rather a complete dark area where light can not exist (a stronger light like daylight would dispel Darkness). Additionally the spell prohibits carried or worn items.
Normal vision can't see through darkness, magical or non-magical, Darkvision can't see through the darkness spell specifically, so normal sight is blocked. You need a special sense to see through the darkness spell or having a feature like Shadow Warrior that lets you see in your own darkness spell, or something like Devil's Sight or True Sight.
There is an argument that you could then pick up or wear the object after casting but as I see it, it's intentionally written as to prohibit that specifically.
That's incorrect. The sphere is filled with an effect that is the same as mundane Darkness except for the ways that are explicitly mentioned by the spell description such as its interaction with Darkvision and so on. This Darkness is considered to be magical for the purposes of something like a Detect Magic spell but otherwise has no difference from mundane Darkness other than what's actually written.
That's incorrect. Mundane Darkness just creates a Heavily Obscured area which just means that that area itself is obscured from view. From inside such an area, you can still see everything that's outside of it.
Rest assured, when outdoors on a clear night, you can easily look up and see the stars.
No, it's not. The point of this is to prevent such things as casting the spell onto the Giant's belt buckle or onto the bugbear's weapon or whatever if there was some reason why you wanted the enemy to not be able to see whatever is very close to it or whatever. It's very clear that you can pick up an object and carry it with you after the spell is cast upon it (this was even more obvious in the 2014 version). The idea is that you cover it up whenever you need to examine things that are nearby and then uncover it whenever you want to be concealed within it (like during ranged combat).
According to the rules, Darkness is Opaque, which means you would not be able to see the stars through and area of darkness, it's the rules, RAW.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/playing-the-game#ObscuredAreas
This said, it depends on what you consider an area to be filled with Darkness is, is the area between you and the stars actually an area of darkness? Probably not. So from that perspective you can see the stars.
An area that is definitely filled with darkness however is the sphere/emanation created by the darkness spell.
Off of this one clear statement in the PHB, it is obvious who is incorrect here.
Don't beat each other up guys :-)
And yes, the rules are a @#! mess. To put it courteously.
They lead to energetic discussions. That's not what the game is meant to be like.
I as DM play it rather relaxed. The darkness is not an event horizon, rather an SEP field. One can see out but not in or through.
There's something missing in the landscape: make an arcana/history/perception check.
But the current DM tries to satisfy a wording and creates a mess that hinders the group more than the opponents. So I wondered.
Anyway, always a nat 20
Hussah!, Max
Darkness is not a one-way mirror, it blocks seeing out just as much as it blocks seeing in.
I almost feel as the Darkness spell is like putting on those bed time solid cloths and then adding a bag over your head. Blindsight allows someone to stand next to you describing what is around you. So you have a good sense what is around, but you are still somewhat limited. Truesight is where you have no blindfold nor bag over your head, but everyone else does.
So if you are in darkness, you have the bag over your head. So none of this 1" inside so you can see x.
Well, I would not have asked if I followed that simplistic approach.
That sort of Darkness has proven to be just annoying, not fun, so not in the spirit of DnD imo.
Anyway, we all can play as we like :-)
You're free to homebrew anything for your table and encouraged to do so if it makes things better for your table.
However this forum is for discussion of rules and game mechanics and so it's a discussion of how RAW/RAI is intended to work where the darkness spell is intended to be an area that creatures can neither see into or out of, unless they process a special sense.
Like the blind fighting feet. Which brings us back to square 1 :-)
feat, not feet. Can't edit :-/
which to answer the question, no, blindsight doesn't allow a person to see past darkness.
So if somebody had 120 darkvision, 60 foot blindsight and were stood next to an area of magical darkness created by the darkness spell, they could see past the darkness spell up to the 60 foot of blindsight but can not see past the darkness for the 120 foot darkvision. The same is true for being inside of the darkness spell, you could "see" up things up to the 60 foot of blindsight but not up to the 120 foot of darkvision.
That is why darkness is like a bag over your head and blindsight is a spotter giving you a description of what is near. Truesight removes the bag so you can see.
No. It's clear that that's not what's intended and that's not what's happening here in context. This line in the main text is meant to be just a flavor text transition / introductory description of the concept and how it differs from the previous concept of a Lightly Obscured area. This line does not appear at all within the Rules Glossary entry for this concept, which is where the actual game mechanics for it are listed.
Further, this was intentionally changed away from the phrase "blocks vision entirely" that appeared in the 2014 rules (after some cycles of errata if I recall) presumably because it was never the intent that you cannot see through the area -- only that you cannot see what is within the area, which is the actual concept of an obscured area in this game. The concept that dictates whether or not you can see through things is covered by the rules and mechanics for Line of Sight, which is an entirely different rule.
So, in context, this description of the area being "opaque" is an attempt to describe how well you can see what is within the area (not at all) in comparison to how well you can see what is within a Lightly Obscured area (you can see things there, but with some difficulty / disadvantage).
Again, if you just use the rules and mechanics that are laid out clearly in the Rules Glossary for these concepts then you will be using the correct and intended rules and mechanics:
It is the area itself that is obscured from view.
DMs should adjudicate issues related to line of sight by using the guidelines in the DMG which discuss Line of Sight instead of trying to apply the rules for obscured areas to that.
I remember a similar question being asked here:
And I shared there this conversation with the Dev:
This debate about how Darkness affects vision pops up from time to time. My interpretation is similar to that of most people in this thread, but if you have time, my humble recommendation would be to revisit similar threads and try to get a sense of the consensus on your own, regardless of how you want to rule it at your table: