I feel the need to clarify one of the most debated rule, which concerns unseen target and vision and how these two topics are related to each other. Please, post your comments for corrections and clarification.
From the paragraph "Unseen target", it is clear that an unseen creature has advantage on attacks rolls against a target and that target has disadvantage against the unseen creature. Now, unseen creature is not equivalent to hidden creature. A hidden creature is contemporary unseen and unheard. A hidden creature, therefore, is not targetable if the means of perception rely on sight and hearing.
Unseen creature is equivalent to the vision status of heavily obscured, and a creature in this status can always try to hide. Equivalent situations to heavily obscured are being invisible, or if the target trying to perceive the creature is blinded.
So, unless an unseen (or heavily obscured) creature takes the Hide, the position of that creature is always known to the others. Some cases in which the unseen creature is automatically hidden is (as examples): when it is contemporary invisible and in a Silence area of effect, or when the others are contemporary blinded and deafened.
A creature with blindsight does not rely on sight, so an invisible creature is not unseen (or heavily obscured) for it. In this case, the invisible creature cannot try to hide, unless it goes out the range of blindsight.
I recall a comment about the DMing declaring an invisible creature automatically hidden beyond some radius (I think it came up with archery somewhere?), but I'd say that depends on hearing range, and falls within the established rules. An invisible creature 600 yards away, or near a waterfall's crash, is likely considered inaudible (and thus hidden) as well.
Something else a lot of people miss: you automatically know the location of all non-hidden creatures when in combat. Outside of combat is a very different situation, and a DM is free to say a guard is too distracted to notice you climbing the city gate even though you're in broad daylight and there's nothing obscuring you.
I would say that you don't know exactly where the creature is. Otherwise you wouldn't need disadvantage. Also if you knew where the creature is exactly, you would know where to cast spells to auto-hit.
Disadvantage is for attacking opponents that are not visible to you. However, unless an invisible creature (whether invisible by spell, effect, being heavily obscured, or other means) also hides, you can generally know its location by signs of passage or sounds it may make.
For more details, the "Hiding" box in PH ph 177 explains a few things (although it could use some more clarity, in my opinion).
You can certainly attempt to Fireball the area you believe a hidden creature to be, and can even use more pin-point spells or attacks against creatures that are invisible but not hidden. Keep in mind, however, that a lot of spells require you to be able to see the target, which both invisibility and hiding prevent.
You can even attempt to direct an attack in the space you believe a creature is hiding in. Most situations (such as a rogue hiding behind a crate) would have you reveal him by moving there, but other situations (such as someone hiding in absolute darkness) means it's a hit or miss. If the creature uses its action to Hide, and then moves, and you attempt to attack the space it was, the DM will declare an automatic miss (or may have you roll anyway so you're not entirely certain if you just missed or the creature isn't there at all).
What you are essentially saying is that without a perception roll, because someone is walking toward the keep in the pitch dark you can in fact with pin point certainty point to the square the being is in, thus being able to shoot a fire arrow at the square while your buddy holds his action until the flame passes by the creature, and then casts any spell that requires sight. Or without a doubt cast any spell that has a range of at least five, because for some reason you are an expert at telling that the noise is exactly in the correct location. Yet if someone says "oh I'm hiding" you suddenly become an idiot at noticing the sound unless you pass a perception check.
I am not saying it (well, I suppose I am >.>), the rules do. :p I even gave you the page.
That aside, yes - if you can't see the troll, it doesn't mean you can't hear it in the darkness coming towards you. A 5x5 ft area is pretty large to be considered "pinpoint", and thus the disadvantage on attempting to hit it (and, if you can't see it, its advantage to hit you), but it's not a stretch of the imagination that you can swing a sword where you hear it, is it? If a creature takes the time to hide, it means it's tiptoeing (I consider tiptoeing trolls very amusing for some reason), or otherwise trying not to make noise when they move.
Naturally, some creatures are stealthier than others - the DM may judge that the shadow floating towards you in the darkness is also inaudible, and thus automatically hidden from you (although, as a DM, I'd be wary of such tactics unless they're for dramatic purposes. Creatures that auto-hide include it in their abilities and are balanced for such tactics. Shadows and floaty undead in general usually make moaning sounds (or rattle chains or something. They're very helpful like that)).
The flame arrow trick will have to be approved by DM, but I'd let it! I mean, yes, if a spell requires you to see the creature when you cast it, and you prepare (Ready) for a moment of light (whether that's a thrown torch, a flame arrow, a sudden flash or anything similar (that you can anticipate - ready action for lightning strikes is stretching it)), why wouldn't it work? I think it makes for a very cinematic scene, too.
...I probably need to limit my usage of brackets...
I suppose what I'm really saying, is whether or not your hearing should be so good that you know automatically whether or not a creature is directly in front of you 5 feet or 10 feet? or is he one square to the left or to the right. I mean even if someone was spending the time to listen (which most characters wouldn't be at this point, unless in battle) Would you really know exactly where someone was.
I can go with, you hear foot steps in front of you (hence why you can make an attack at all), but to be able to say, oh you hear footsteps exactly 15 feet in front of you, so you can with certainty use your dragon breath (one of the line ones) and hit him even though you are blindfolded and tied to a chair. But you are so awesome that you know without certainty he isn't 1 inch to the left.
But then once he says "I hide as I walk into the room" Your hearing suddenly becomes incapable of telling if there is someone even within the area.
More importantly how far away can a person be and you still be able to tell exactly where they are by sound? Could you really hear someone walking up 50, 60 feet away with pinpoint certainty?
I can go with "as he walks up and starts talking in front of me, I listen to the sound of his voice and blow my dragon breath at him." But it really doesn't make much sense that you hear two people talking across the room, know exactly that they are within range of your dragon breath, and can even position it (line breath) where it hits both people because you know for certain where they are both at.
FYI pages only help when you currently have the players handbook around, which sadly isn't all the time with WotC dislike for PDFs.
As a side note, even if you miss, you should know whether the creature is there or not. Especially on a high roll, that would have certainly hit armor. Not to mention if you ask for a roll you do end up with that awkward deal when the player goes "Nat 20" and starts rolling for damage just to have to be like, "oh you hit nothing" So I'd probably lean toward not having a roll.
I suppose what I'm really saying, is whether or not your hearing should be so good that you know automatically whether or not a creature is directly in front of you 5 feet or 10 feet? or is he one square to the left or to the right.
This is one of the many places in which it is clear that the rules of D&D are meant to be rules of a game, concerning themselves with questions like "What's fair?" and "What gets a decent result with minimal effort in the doing or much detail to remember?", and are not meant to be a simulation of any reality including the reality in which the characters live, so they don't concern themselves with questions like "Is that how it would work for a real person?"
You know well enough were a creature that hasn't taken an action to hide is to attack it, rather than some empty space, with disadvantage because that's good enough for game-play. You don't have to guess their space, unless they did take a hide action and their roll for that action beat your perception check (whether passive or actively rolled), because that's fair; being invisible helps them by hindering you, but it doesn't leave you needing to guess correctly just to get a roll with bad odds.
I think that it should be a contest between passive perception and passive stealth if a target is invisible but not hiding unless you actually make a perception check as your action to find and point the invisible target out to your party. If the target is naturally stealthy and you're naturally oblivious, you can try making an attack where you think they may be but you may pick the wrong square and miss entirely or you may pick the right square and be making an attack at disadvantage since you're just swinging randomly. On the other side if the invisible thing is naturally noisy and the other is naturally perceptive, they know roughly where you are but are still attacking at disadvantage since they can't see where you're dropping your guard or leaving yourself exposed to focus on that like they would if they can see you.
So, unless an unseen (or heavily obscured) creature takes the Hide, the position of that creature is always known to the others. Some cases in which the unseen creature is automatically hidden is (as examples): when it is contemporary invisible and in a Silence area of effect, or when the others are contemporary blinded and deafened.
I don't think being unseen and unheard automatically makes you hidden. I believe you must take the hide action to be hidden in combat, regardless of the circumstances. Your location is unknown and you are unseen but a creature with a sensitive sense of smell could probably know your location.
Something else a lot of people miss: you automatically know the location of all non-hidden creatures when in combat. Outside of combat is a very different situation, and a DM is free to say a guard is too distracted to notice you climbing the city gate even though you're in broad daylight and there's nothing obscuring you.
Sorry for the necro, but can you tell me where you found this information? i can't seem to locate it.
Let me describe a scenario for you: spells are flying everywhere around you, fireballs exploding, barbarians screaming in rage as they're hammering at you with a huge greataxe while a bard is singing his insults at you. You think for one moment that you're going to be able to hear an invisible person 30 ft away from you as their walking along? Not even remotely. Quite frankly, you're not going to be able to hear them just 10 ft away from you. Not with all that going on.
If the pc/npc in question is invisible, have them roll a stealth check vs passive perception to see if they are able to stay under the radar enough to not be detected with other senses.
Invisibility is a 3rd level spell, it's SUPPOSED to be powerful
This is an OLD thread but... a correction. Invisibility is a 2nd level spell.
Also, a creature does have to take the Hide Action to be Hidden. Nothing in the rules say otherwise.
For realism or other reasons... DMs can of course determine if any circumstances or other aspects of their game would grant a Hidden Status without having to take the Hide Action. As mentioned above, distance and loud noises. However, use caution when deploying such tactics. Invisibility with auto Hidden Status is GOD level power. This will shift the power of the game and Players will find ways to use it if you introduce it.
An example, an attacker uses Greater Invisibility, it has an attack range of 120 feet. Lets say you had determined any Unseen creature at a distance of greater than 60 feet is Auto Hidden. A character could solo TPK the party. Imagine if your PCs used this tactic on your NPCs as a go to tactic. You would have to bring out specific things to challenge them over and over.
My opinion for anyone considering using an auto hide feature would be not to do it, keep it as is. It is simple and it works.
However, as a DM, if I wanted to increase the difficulty of a situation and use a auto Hidden tactic, I might be inclined to have PCs make a Perception/Investigation check (DC determined by the DM) every round to determine the square(s) it is in. If it were more difficult than this, I might increase the DC or have the PCs make this check with Disadvantage.
Keep in mind, it only takes one character to locate the hidden target for the party to benefit in attacking the correct square. Initiative matters in this scenario. If the auto Hidden creature moves it is again automatically hidden. PCs need to again locate the square the target is in. Meaning, in initiative order, on their turns, if PCs fail their checks to locate the hidden target, they have failed to get more of the PCs group on target.
I feel the need to clarify one of the most debated rule, which concerns unseen target and vision and how these two topics are related to each other. Please, post your comments for corrections and clarification.
From the paragraph "Unseen target", it is clear that an unseen creature has advantage on attacks rolls against a target and that target has disadvantage against the unseen creature. Now, unseen creature is not equivalent to hidden creature. A hidden creature is contemporary unseen and unheard. A hidden creature, therefore, is not targetable if the means of perception rely on sight and hearing.
Unseen creature is equivalent to the vision status of heavily obscured, and a creature in this status can always try to hide. Equivalent situations to heavily obscured are being invisible, or if the target trying to perceive the creature is blinded.
So, unless an unseen (or heavily obscured) creature takes the Hide, the position of that creature is always known to the others. Some cases in which the unseen creature is automatically hidden is (as examples): when it is contemporary invisible and in a Silence area of effect, or when the others are contemporary blinded and deafened.
A creature with blindsight does not rely on sight, so an invisible creature is not unseen (or heavily obscured) for it. In this case, the invisible creature cannot try to hide, unless it goes out the range of blindsight.
I don't see anything inaccurate in there. :)
I recall a comment about the DMing declaring an invisible creature automatically hidden beyond some radius (I think it came up with archery somewhere?), but I'd say that depends on hearing range, and falls within the established rules. An invisible creature 600 yards away, or near a waterfall's crash, is likely considered inaudible (and thus hidden) as well.
Something else a lot of people miss: you automatically know the location of all non-hidden creatures when in combat. Outside of combat is a very different situation, and a DM is free to say a guard is too distracted to notice you climbing the city gate even though you're in broad daylight and there's nothing obscuring you.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I would say that you don't know exactly where the creature is. Otherwise you wouldn't need disadvantage. Also if you knew where the creature is exactly, you would know where to cast spells to auto-hit.
Disadvantage is for attacking opponents that are not visible to you. However, unless an invisible creature (whether invisible by spell, effect, being heavily obscured, or other means) also hides, you can generally know its location by signs of passage or sounds it may make.
For more details, the "Hiding" box in PH ph 177 explains a few things (although it could use some more clarity, in my opinion).
You can certainly attempt to Fireball the area you believe a hidden creature to be, and can even use more pin-point spells or attacks against creatures that are invisible but not hidden. Keep in mind, however, that a lot of spells require you to be able to see the target, which both invisibility and hiding prevent.
You can even attempt to direct an attack in the space you believe a creature is hiding in. Most situations (such as a rogue hiding behind a crate) would have you reveal him by moving there, but other situations (such as someone hiding in absolute darkness) means it's a hit or miss. If the creature uses its action to Hide, and then moves, and you attempt to attack the space it was, the DM will declare an automatic miss (or may have you roll anyway so you're not entirely certain if you just missed or the creature isn't there at all).
What you are essentially saying is that without a perception roll, because someone is walking toward the keep in the pitch dark you can in fact with pin point certainty point to the square the being is in, thus being able to shoot a fire arrow at the square while your buddy holds his action until the flame passes by the creature, and then casts any spell that requires sight. Or without a doubt cast any spell that has a range of at least five, because for some reason you are an expert at telling that the noise is exactly in the correct location. Yet if someone says "oh I'm hiding" you suddenly become an idiot at noticing the sound unless you pass a perception check.
I am not saying it (well, I suppose I am >.>), the rules do. :p I even gave you the page.
That aside, yes - if you can't see the troll, it doesn't mean you can't hear it in the darkness coming towards you. A 5x5 ft area is pretty large to be considered "pinpoint", and thus the disadvantage on attempting to hit it (and, if you can't see it, its advantage to hit you), but it's not a stretch of the imagination that you can swing a sword where you hear it, is it? If a creature takes the time to hide, it means it's tiptoeing (I consider tiptoeing trolls very amusing for some reason), or otherwise trying not to make noise when they move.
Naturally, some creatures are stealthier than others - the DM may judge that the shadow floating towards you in the darkness is also inaudible, and thus automatically hidden from you (although, as a DM, I'd be wary of such tactics unless they're for dramatic purposes. Creatures that auto-hide include it in their abilities and are balanced for such tactics. Shadows and floaty undead in general usually make moaning sounds (or rattle chains or something. They're very helpful like that)).
The flame arrow trick will have to be approved by DM, but I'd let it! I mean, yes, if a spell requires you to see the creature when you cast it, and you prepare (Ready) for a moment of light (whether that's a thrown torch, a flame arrow, a sudden flash or anything similar (that you can anticipate - ready action for lightning strikes is stretching it)), why wouldn't it work? I think it makes for a very cinematic scene, too.
...I probably need to limit my usage of brackets...
I suppose what I'm really saying, is whether or not your hearing should be so good that you know automatically whether or not a creature is directly in front of you 5 feet or 10 feet? or is he one square to the left or to the right. I mean even if someone was spending the time to listen (which most characters wouldn't be at this point, unless in battle) Would you really know exactly where someone was.
I can go with, you hear foot steps in front of you (hence why you can make an attack at all), but to be able to say, oh you hear footsteps exactly 15 feet in front of you, so you can with certainty use your dragon breath (one of the line ones) and hit him even though you are blindfolded and tied to a chair. But you are so awesome that you know without certainty he isn't 1 inch to the left.
But then once he says "I hide as I walk into the room" Your hearing suddenly becomes incapable of telling if there is someone even within the area.
More importantly how far away can a person be and you still be able to tell exactly where they are by sound? Could you really hear someone walking up 50, 60 feet away with pinpoint certainty?
I can go with "as he walks up and starts talking in front of me, I listen to the sound of his voice and blow my dragon breath at him." But it really doesn't make much sense that you hear two people talking across the room, know exactly that they are within range of your dragon breath, and can even position it (line breath) where it hits both people because you know for certain where they are both at.
FYI pages only help when you currently have the players handbook around, which sadly isn't all the time with WotC dislike for PDFs.
As a side note, even if you miss, you should know whether the creature is there or not. Especially on a high roll, that would have certainly hit armor. Not to mention if you ask for a roll you do end up with that awkward deal when the player goes "Nat 20" and starts rolling for damage just to have to be like, "oh you hit nothing" So I'd probably lean toward not having a roll.
This is one of the many places in which it is clear that the rules of D&D are meant to be rules of a game, concerning themselves with questions like "What's fair?" and "What gets a decent result with minimal effort in the doing or much detail to remember?", and are not meant to be a simulation of any reality including the reality in which the characters live, so they don't concern themselves with questions like "Is that how it would work for a real person?"
You know well enough were a creature that hasn't taken an action to hide is to attack it, rather than some empty space, with disadvantage because that's good enough for game-play. You don't have to guess their space, unless they did take a hide action and their roll for that action beat your perception check (whether passive or actively rolled), because that's fair; being invisible helps them by hindering you, but it doesn't leave you needing to guess correctly just to get a roll with bad odds.
I think that it should be a contest between passive perception and passive stealth if a target is invisible but not hiding unless you actually make a perception check as your action to find and point the invisible target out to your party. If the target is naturally stealthy and you're naturally oblivious, you can try making an attack where you think they may be but you may pick the wrong square and miss entirely or you may pick the right square and be making an attack at disadvantage since you're just swinging randomly. On the other side if the invisible thing is naturally noisy and the other is naturally perceptive, they know roughly where you are but are still attacking at disadvantage since they can't see where you're dropping your guard or leaving yourself exposed to focus on that like they would if they can see you.
I don't think being unseen and unheard automatically makes you hidden. I believe you must take the hide action to be hidden in combat, regardless of the circumstances. Your location is unknown and you are unseen but a creature with a sensitive sense of smell could probably know your location.
Sorry for the necro, but can you tell me where you found this information? i can't seem to locate it.
Sorry for the necro, but can you tell me where you found this information? i can't seem to locate it.
Let me describe a scenario for you: spells are flying everywhere around you, fireballs exploding, barbarians screaming in rage as they're hammering at you with a huge greataxe while a bard is singing his insults at you. You think for one moment that you're going to be able to hear an invisible person 30 ft away from you as their walking along? Not even remotely. Quite frankly, you're not going to be able to hear them just 10 ft away from you. Not with all that going on.
If the pc/npc in question is invisible, have them roll a stealth check vs passive perception to see if they are able to stay under the radar enough to not be detected with other senses.
Invisibility is a 3rd level spell, it's SUPPOSED to be powerful
This is an OLD thread but... a correction. Invisibility is a 2nd level spell.
Also, a creature does have to take the Hide Action to be Hidden. Nothing in the rules say otherwise.
For realism or other reasons... DMs can of course determine if any circumstances or other aspects of their game would grant a Hidden Status without having to take the Hide Action. As mentioned above, distance and loud noises. However, use caution when deploying such tactics. Invisibility with auto Hidden Status is GOD level power. This will shift the power of the game and Players will find ways to use it if you introduce it.
An example, an attacker uses Greater Invisibility, it has an attack range of 120 feet. Lets say you had determined any Unseen creature at a distance of greater than 60 feet is Auto Hidden. A character could solo TPK the party. Imagine if your PCs used this tactic on your NPCs as a go to tactic. You would have to bring out specific things to challenge them over and over.
My opinion for anyone considering using an auto hide feature would be not to do it, keep it as is. It is simple and it works.
However, as a DM, if I wanted to increase the difficulty of a situation and use a auto Hidden tactic, I might be inclined to have PCs make a Perception/Investigation check (DC determined by the DM) every round to determine the square(s) it is in. If it were more difficult than this, I might increase the DC or have the PCs make this check with Disadvantage.
Keep in mind, it only takes one character to locate the hidden target for the party to benefit in attacking the correct square. Initiative matters in this scenario. If the auto Hidden creature moves it is again automatically hidden. PCs need to again locate the square the target is in. Meaning, in initiative order, on their turns, if PCs fail their checks to locate the hidden target, they have failed to get more of the PCs group on target.
DIFFICULTY CLASSES (PLAYER’S HANDBOOK p174)