We had a situation crop up during play tonight, where the DM ruled that the Bard casting fear wasn't getting the group of enemies all in the cone. The bard wanted to walk forward and include the outliers and wasn't allowed to have the fear affect the newly encompassed, nor once an effected adversary fled, saved when out of sight and then return, didn't have to save again.
I had understood, that for the duration the effect emenated from the caster and anything that was in that cone had to save or be frightened?
The way I have always played it was that the cone itself was instantaneous in its effect, but the frightened condition lasted for the duration.
That is the correct interpretation. You cast it in a cone, and the effect on the affected targets lasts the duration.
That said, any spell with an emanating effect follows whatever the target is for the duration. So detect magic, for instance, follows the caster as they move.
The way I have always played it was that the cone itself was instantaneous in its effect, but the frightened condition lasted for the duration.
That is the correct interpretation. You cast it in a cone, and the effect on the affected targets lasts the duration.
That said, any spell with an emanating effect follows whatever the target is for the duration. So detect magic, for instance, follows the caster as they move.
The cone flashes instantly and catches whoever it catches. Those people stay frightened of you for the duration. Anyone the cone didn’t catch the instant that cone flashed is unaffected no mater what you do after that unless you cast fear again. Since Fear is a concentration spell, if you cast it again, whoever was still affected from the first spell is instantly unaffected and will only be frightened of you again if they are also caught in the cone of the second casting.
1.) Moving forward to encompas new enemies WOULD cause a saving throw and possible fear effect
2.) Previously affected enemy who saved out of sight, but later returned into the cone - not sure on that one from your description of "instantaneous"
Thanks for the clarifications so far.
As clarified by others, this is incorrect. The spell resolves first; so the phantasmal image is created in the mind of any creature in a 30ft cone. Anybody that fails the save is struck with the frightened condition for 1 minute. Anybody out of range, or that makes their save, is unaffected. End of spell.
Imagine it like a shotgun. If you shoot a shotgun with a range of 30ft, anyone struck by it will start bleeding. But stepping forwards, without shooting it again, won't suddenly make anybody that was out of range before start bleeding too.
1.) Moving forward to encompas new enemies WOULD cause a saving throw and possible fear effect
2.) Previously affected enemy who saved out of sight, but later returned into the cone - not sure on that one from your description of "instantaneous"
Thanks for the clarifications so far.
As clarified by others, this is incorrect. The spell resolves first; so the phantasmal image is created in the mind of any creature in a 30ft cone. Anybody that fails the save is struck with the frightened condition for 1 minute. Anybody out of range, or that makes their save, is unaffected. End of spell.
Imagine it like a shotgun. If you shoot a shotgun with a range of 30ft, anyone struck by it will start bleeding. But stepping forwards, without shooting it again, won't suddenly make anybody that was out of range before start bleeding too.
But how is that consistent with the example of "Detect Magic" given above which lasts for the duration of concentration and reveals things as you move, along with other auras.
Seems to be two schools of thought being expressed here?
Re-reading the description, the term "project to me suggest the duration. nothing about that says "flash" If it was instantaneous, why not put that in the description?
Rather confused by the examples and counter examples
1.) Moving forward to encompas new enemies WOULD cause a saving throw and possible fear effect
2.) Previously affected enemy who saved out of sight, but later returned into the cone - not sure on that one from your description of "instantaneous"
Thanks for the clarifications so far.
As clarified by others, this is incorrect. The spell resolves first; so the phantasmal image is created in the mind of any creature in a 30ft cone. Anybody that fails the save is struck with the frightened condition for 1 minute. Anybody out of range, or that makes their save, is unaffected. End of spell.
Imagine it like a shotgun. If you shoot a shotgun with a range of 30ft, anyone struck by it will start bleeding. But stepping forwards, without shooting it again, won't suddenly make anybody that was out of range before start bleeding too.
But how is that consistent with the example of "Detect Magic" given above which lasts for the duration of concentration and reveals things as you move, along with other auras.
Seems to be two schools of thought being expressed here?
Re-reading the description, the term "project to me suggest the duration. nothing about that says "flash" If it was instantaneous, why not put that in the description?
Rather confused by the examples and counter examples
Detect Magic reads
'For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 ft. of you.'
while Fear reads
'Each creature in a 30-foot cone must succeed on a WIS saving throw or drop whatever it is holding and become frightened for the duration.'
You see that the duration part is connected to different spell effects? For detect magic the sense is hold up for the duration, for fear the frightened condition has the duration attached, not the cone.
The way I have always played it was that the cone itself was instantaneous in its effect, but the frightened condition lasted for the duration.
That is the correct interpretation. You cast it in a cone, and the effect on the affected targets lasts the duration.
That said, any spell with an emanating effect follows whatever the target is for the duration. So detect magic, for instance, follows the caster as they move.
Exactly........
And btw, I like that Calvin pic on your Avatar's profile... hehehe.
The cone isn’t like light from a flashlight that you can point here and there, it is only for determining who is in range to be affected. There is nothing to “move” once the spell is cast. It is instantaneous and once the initial saving throws are resolved at the moment you cast the spell, the cone is gone (again the cone is only for determining who is in range).
1.) Moving forward to encompas new enemies WOULD cause a saving throw and possible fear effect
2.) Previously affected enemy who saved out of sight, but later returned into the cone - not sure on that one from your description of "instantaneous"
Thanks for the clarifications so far.
As clarified by others, this is incorrect. The spell resolves first; so the phantasmal image is created in the mind of any creature in a 30ft cone. Anybody that fails the save is struck with the frightened condition for 1 minute. Anybody out of range, or that makes their save, is unaffected. End of spell.
Imagine it like a shotgun. If you shoot a shotgun with a range of 30ft, anyone struck by it will start bleeding. But stepping forwards, without shooting it again, won't suddenly make anybody that was out of range before start bleeding too.
But how is that consistent with the example of "Detect Magic" given above which lasts for the duration of concentration and reveals things as you move, along with other auras.
Seems to be two schools of thought being expressed here?
Re-reading the description, the term "project to me suggest the duration. nothing about that says "flash" If it was instantaneous, why not put that in the description?
Rather confused by the examples and counter examples
No, there's just the one school of thought. Spells are divided into two aspects: the action, and the effect. As mentioned above, Detect Magic and Fear have very different descriptions that clearly define what happens for the duration of the spell.
With Fear, the spell specifies what happens for the 1 minute duration of the spell. It makes no mention about the cone persisting beyond your turn. Let's break it down:
You cast Fear, which takes 1 action to cast. In doing so, 'You project a phantasmal image of a creature’s worst fears.'
The spell effect: 'Each creature in a 30-foot cone must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or drop whatever it is holding and become frightened for the duration.'
So we see what creatures are caught in the 30-foot cone, and which fail their Wisdom saving throws. Now we move onto 'the duration' for those creatures.
For up to 1 minute, while you maintain concentration: 'a creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest available route on each of its turns, unless there is nowhere to move. If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn’t have line of sight to you, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature.'
Now let's move onto Detect Magic:
You cast Detect Magic, which takes 1 action. Which 'For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you.'
So we know that for the duration of the spell, which is up to 10 minutes of concentration, we resolve the 'for duration' part of the spell. Which is: 'you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic, if any.'
If a spell's duration persists beyond your turn, it very clearly specifies this. Consider 'Hunger of Hadar' as a good example, which describes what happens on each turn that the spell is in effect.
We had a situation crop up during play tonight, where the DM ruled that the Bard casting fear wasn't getting the group of enemies all in the cone. The bard wanted to walk forward and include the outliers and wasn't allowed to have the fear affect the newly encompassed, nor once an effected adversary fled, saved when out of sight and then return, didn't have to save again.
I had understood, that for the duration the effect emenated from the caster and anything that was in that cone had to save or be frightened?
Thoughts out there?
The way I have always played it was that the cone itself was instantaneous in its effect, but the frightened condition lasted for the duration.
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Ditto. Instant effect, duration for the condition. only
That is the correct interpretation. You cast it in a cone, and the effect on the affected targets lasts the duration.
That said, any spell with an emanating effect follows whatever the target is for the duration. So detect magic, for instance, follows the caster as they move.
And “Aura” spells as well.
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So, in the scenario that I described above:-
1.) Moving forward to encompas new enemies WOULD cause a saving throw and possible fear effect
2.) Previously affected enemy who saved out of sight, but later returned into the cone - not sure on that one from your description of "instantaneous"
Thanks for the clarifications so far.
The cone flashes instantly and catches whoever it catches. Those people stay frightened of you for the duration. Anyone the cone didn’t catch the instant that cone flashed is unaffected no mater what you do after that unless you cast fear again. Since Fear is a concentration spell, if you cast it again, whoever was still affected from the first spell is instantly unaffected and will only be frightened of you again if they are also caught in the cone of the second casting.
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As clarified by others, this is incorrect. The spell resolves first; so the phantasmal image is created in the mind of any creature in a 30ft cone. Anybody that fails the save is struck with the frightened condition for 1 minute. Anybody out of range, or that makes their save, is unaffected. End of spell.
Imagine it like a shotgun. If you shoot a shotgun with a range of 30ft, anyone struck by it will start bleeding. But stepping forwards, without shooting it again, won't suddenly make anybody that was out of range before start bleeding too.
But how is that consistent with the example of "Detect Magic" given above which lasts for the duration of concentration and reveals things as you move, along with other auras.
Seems to be two schools of thought being expressed here?
Re-reading the description, the term "project to me suggest the duration. nothing about that says "flash" If it was instantaneous, why not put that in the description?
Rather confused by the examples and counter examples
Detect Magic reads
'For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 ft. of you.'
while Fear reads
'Each creature in a 30-foot cone must succeed on a WIS saving throw or drop whatever it is holding and become frightened for the duration.'
You see that the duration part is connected to different spell effects? For detect magic the sense is hold up for the duration, for fear the frightened condition has the duration attached, not the cone.
Exactly........
And btw, I like that Calvin pic on your Avatar's profile... hehehe.
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Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
The cone isn’t like light from a flashlight that you can point here and there, it is only for determining who is in range to be affected. There is nothing to “move” once the spell is cast. It is instantaneous and once the initial saving throws are resolved at the moment you cast the spell, the cone is gone (again the cone is only for determining who is in range).
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No, there's just the one school of thought. Spells are divided into two aspects: the action, and the effect. As mentioned above, Detect Magic and Fear have very different descriptions that clearly define what happens for the duration of the spell.
With Fear, the spell specifies what happens for the 1 minute duration of the spell. It makes no mention about the cone persisting beyond your turn. Let's break it down:
You cast Fear, which takes 1 action to cast. In doing so, 'You project a phantasmal image of a creature’s worst fears.'
The spell effect: 'Each creature in a 30-foot cone must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or drop whatever it is holding and become frightened for the duration.'
So we see what creatures are caught in the 30-foot cone, and which fail their Wisdom saving throws. Now we move onto 'the duration' for those creatures.
For up to 1 minute, while you maintain concentration: 'a creature must take the Dash action and move away from you by the safest available route on each of its turns, unless there is nowhere to move. If the creature ends its turn in a location where it doesn’t have line of sight to you, the creature can make a Wisdom saving throw. On a successful save, the spell ends for that creature.'
Now let's move onto Detect Magic:
You cast Detect Magic, which takes 1 action. Which 'For the duration, you sense the presence of magic within 30 feet of you.'
So we know that for the duration of the spell, which is up to 10 minutes of concentration, we resolve the 'for duration' part of the spell. Which is: 'you can use your action to see a faint aura around any visible creature or object in the area that bears magic, and you learn its school of magic, if any.'
If a spell's duration persists beyond your turn, it very clearly specifies this. Consider 'Hunger of Hadar' as a good example, which describes what happens on each turn that the spell is in effect.
Okay.
Thanks, That's much clearer!