According to Invisibility's description, "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." so I'm assuming, starting a ritual would count as casting a spell so invisibility would end.
My question is: if Person A starts a casting/performing a ritual, and Person B cast Invisibility on them while they are performing the ritual, would the invisibility remain on them, or would it be gone within the next 6 seconds?
When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so
You start casting the ritual, then your ally casts Invisibility. You'd get 6 seconds of invisibility until your next 'turn' at which point you'd be casting it 'again', causing invisibility to end
The invisibility rule says “casts” (past tense), “casting” from the ritual is in present tense, and casting can be interrupted without completing. I would rule invisibility would remain until the spell is actually cast, at the end of the duration of casting
The invisibility rule says “casts” (past tense), “casting” from the ritual is in present tense, and casting can be interrupted without completing. I would rule invisibility would remain until the spell is actually cast, at the end of the duration of casting
English is not my native language, but I don't think that "casts" in the invisibility rule is the past tense, especially when the whole sentence reads: "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." Wouldn't it be "The spell ends for a target that attacked or cast a spell." if it was the past tense ?
So for me, it's the present tense, and in the sentence "When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so" the first part implies that you are considered being in the state of "casting a spell" as soon as you start casting it.
Looking back at it: Casts is the 3rd person present indefinite version, so it is technically present tense. However this is from a grammar reference on indefinite tenses;
The three indefinite tenses express facts or habitual activities. Unlike the other tenses, the indefinite tenses describe actions without specifically stating whether the actions are completed or ongoing.
If there is no clarification over whether the use of "Casts" implies a completed or ongoing action, I think this is up for debate. There has been debate on these forums whether a spell cast by a person invisible due to the invisibility spell could be counterspelled. My takeaway from those discussions was no, you can't because you haven't actually cast a spell until the casting time is complete, which follows the "completed" implication of the word, rather than the ongoing implication.
That said, I see three possible rulings:
1) invisibility drops as soon as casting begins (assuming that Casts implies ongoing)
2) invisibility drops as soon as casting is completed (assuming that Casts implies completed)
3) invisibility drops as soon as you have used the cast a spell action, regardless of whether the casting is complete (assumes you have the use the "cast a spell action" every round as a separate and distinct action for the duration of the casting time, and assuming that Casts implies completed)
I would rule as a DM that the invisibility spell would end upon completion of the ritual when the ritual spell energy is released to do whatever the ritual spell was meant to do.
I would not rule that invisibility ends as soon as someone begins casting a spell.
Usually this distinction would have little impact on the game but would be interesting when discussion Counterspell.
Likewise, for attacking, I would rule that the invisibility ends as soon as the attacked "made contact" with his target. But that gets into some gray area because what if the attacker swings and misses the target but hits a column by mistake? Likewise, if an archer shoots an arrow, when does the invisibility end? Does it end when the arrow leaves the bow or when it makes contact with something at the other end?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
As I see it, the invisibility ends the moment the ritual spell is released, just like it ends when an arrow is released from the bow. The archer stays invisible when drawing, so the spellcaster stays invisible while performing/preparing. IMHO it's the final action that counts.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Semper in faecibus sumus, solum profundum variat" playing since 1986
3) invisibility drops as soon as you have used the cast a spell action, regardless of whether the casting is complete (assumes you have to use the "cast a spell action" every round as a separate and distinct action for the duration of the casting time, and assuming that Casts implies completed)
While you are technically correct, I would say only technically. The tense issue assumes that castings longer than one round were even considered. That is hardly a given and in fact relatively unlikely.
3) invisibility drops as soon as you have used the cast a spell action, regardless of whether the casting is complete (assumes you have to use the "cast a spell action" every round as a separate and distinct action for the duration of the casting time, and assuming that Casts implies completed)
While you are technically correct, I would say only technically. The tense issue assumes that castings longer than one round were even considered. That is hardly a given and in fact relatively unlikely.
It is highly unlikely.
After looking at the tweet Lyxen found, I would say #2 or #3 of my original options would fulfill the RAW and the RAI best. I would be more inclined to use #2 myself, as the trade-off is the use of two peoples concentration (the spell in question and the other casting of invisibility), which limits potential options for the players in other ways.
Ultimately this boils down to whether you think an extended casting time is multiple "cast a spell" actions, or a single one that is extended over multiple turns due to concentration. The description of the "cast a spell" action actually does say that "casting a spell is not necessarily an action" which to me lends weight to each spell requiring a single casting, no matter how many actions are required (over multiple rounds) to complete it.
After looking at the tweet Lyxen found, I would say #2 or #3 of my original options would fulfill the RAW and the RAI best. I would be more inclined to use #2 myself, as the trade-off is the use of two peoples concentration (the spell in question and the other casting of invisibility), which limits potential options for the players in other ways.
Ultimately this boils down to whether you think an extended casting time is multiple "cast a spell" actions, or a single one that is extended over multiple turns due to concentration. The description of the "cast a spell" action actually does say that "casting a spell is not necessarily an action" which to me lends weight to each spell requiring a single casting, no matter how many actions are required (over multiple rounds) to complete it.
I think I will agree with you. As you point out, there is merit in #3 (and some people have indicated that it is their preference), however, in addition to your reason of it using the concentration of two people:
As the casting is going on and most of the spells and in particular rituals have a V component it would be far from discrete and the invisible caster would be quickly located from the sound alone, so it is even less overpowered.
It works outside of combat as people could argue that if you are not in combat you are not taking actions so you are not using your action every round to cast.
I think it's more in line with the description of the tweet, which is clearly when the spell goes off.
All the above is very debatable, of course, so to each his own, I think.
Kotath, it’s already been stated that the indefinite nature of the verb does not define whether it is currently ongoing or just completed. Please don’t turn this into the same 100 post back and forth argument we’ve had on so many threads. RAI clearly indicates that invisibility drops once the spell is finished casting (otherwise you could counterspell it, which is against the guidance in JCs tweet), and there are two rulings already stated that fulfill the RAI while complying with RAW
According to Invisibility's description, "The spell ends for a target that attacks or casts a spell." so I'm assuming, starting a ritual would count as casting a spell so invisibility would end.
My question is: if Person A starts a casting/performing a ritual, and Person B cast Invisibility on them while they are performing the ritual, would the invisibility remain on them, or would it be gone within the next 6 seconds?
You start casting the ritual, then your ally casts Invisibility. You'd get 6 seconds of invisibility until your next 'turn' at which point you'd be casting it 'again', causing invisibility to end
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I actually haven't consider that, got too focused on whether it would be cancelled out, rather than whether it would take hold, that's a good point.
Thank you both.
The invisibility rule says “casts” (past tense), “casting” from the ritual is in present tense, and casting can be interrupted without completing. I would rule invisibility would remain until the spell is actually cast, at the end of the duration of casting
Looking back at it: Casts is the 3rd person present indefinite version, so it is technically present tense. However this is from a grammar reference on indefinite tenses;
The three indefinite tenses express facts or habitual activities. Unlike the other tenses, the indefinite tenses describe actions without specifically stating whether the actions are completed or ongoing.
If there is no clarification over whether the use of "Casts" implies a completed or ongoing action, I think this is up for debate. There has been debate on these forums whether a spell cast by a person invisible due to the invisibility spell could be counterspelled. My takeaway from those discussions was no, you can't because you haven't actually cast a spell until the casting time is complete, which follows the "completed" implication of the word, rather than the ongoing implication.
That said, I see three possible rulings:
1) invisibility drops as soon as casting begins (assuming that Casts implies ongoing)
2) invisibility drops as soon as casting is completed (assuming that Casts implies completed)
3) invisibility drops as soon as you have used the cast a spell action, regardless of whether the casting is complete (assumes you have the use the "cast a spell action" every round as a separate and distinct action for the duration of the casting time, and assuming that Casts implies completed)
I would rule as a DM that the invisibility spell would end upon completion of the ritual when the ritual spell energy is released to do whatever the ritual spell was meant to do.
I would not rule that invisibility ends as soon as someone begins casting a spell.
Usually this distinction would have little impact on the game but would be interesting when discussion Counterspell.
Likewise, for attacking, I would rule that the invisibility ends as soon as the attacked "made contact" with his target. But that gets into some gray area because what if the attacker swings and misses the target but hits a column by mistake? Likewise, if an archer shoots an arrow, when does the invisibility end? Does it end when the arrow leaves the bow or when it makes contact with something at the other end?
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
As I see it, the invisibility ends the moment the ritual spell is released, just like it ends when an arrow is released from the bow. The archer stays invisible when drawing, so the spellcaster stays invisible while performing/preparing. IMHO it's the final action that counts.
playing since 1986
That’s my ruling.
It is highly unlikely.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
After looking at the tweet Lyxen found, I would say #2 or #3 of my original options would fulfill the RAW and the RAI best. I would be more inclined to use #2 myself, as the trade-off is the use of two peoples concentration (the spell in question and the other casting of invisibility), which limits potential options for the players in other ways.
Ultimately this boils down to whether you think an extended casting time is multiple "cast a spell" actions, or a single one that is extended over multiple turns due to concentration. The description of the "cast a spell" action actually does say that "casting a spell is not necessarily an action" which to me lends weight to each spell requiring a single casting, no matter how many actions are required (over multiple rounds) to complete it.
Those are fair points.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Kotath, it’s already been stated that the indefinite nature of the verb does not define whether it is currently ongoing or just completed. Please don’t turn this into the same 100 post back and forth argument we’ve had on so many threads. RAI clearly indicates that invisibility drops once the spell is finished casting (otherwise you could counterspell it, which is against the guidance in JCs tweet), and there are two rulings already stated that fulfill the RAI while complying with RAW