So a creature's CR is based on several factors, one of which is damage output. But how is the damage output calculated for spellcasters? For example, and Archdruid is CR 12 but if it's damage bas based solely on it's one scimitar attack a round, it's CR would be laughable. Should these be based on their most powerful spells or what?
Chapter 9 of the dungeon masters guide features a series of tables for calculating offensive, defensive and average (listed) CR. Offensive CR is based on the average damage on it's offensive abilities including spells with the assumption they hit. Only spells that call damage, or increase hp or AC are factored into CR.
Which I am aware of, it's the info I was going off of. I know part of it also mentions the assumption of the average damage in the first 3 founds of combat, so would you say that damage rating should be based off of the spellcaster's three most damaging spells they have and would use in those three rounds? Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I hope it didn't sound like I was being rude at the beginning of my response.
No, and that is intentional. They have a very math heavy algorithm to calculate their CR. However, it would be too cumbersome for players to use, so they invented a simplified version for players to use, which is what is in the DMG.
WotC did not follow their own suggestions when determining CR for their own monsters.
Assigning CRs is not an exact science. You still have to playtest to see if the table's predictions are reasonable in practice.
Absolutely.
But also, WotC does not follow that table. They have their own algorithm and that table is, like, the “diet” version of that. They quite literally do not follow the same metrics for determining CR that they told us to follow.
The defensive CR is based off HP and AC, and an Archdruids would be 5.
As far as I'm aware the offensive CR is calculated as if the creature/npc used their most powerful attacks/abilities/spells for 3 rounds of combat, they hit average damage, hit 2 enemies if their attacks target more than 1 creature and creatures fail their saves if any and finally adjusted based on their attack modifier. Having a quick look at the archdruid statblock that'd be casting Wall of Fire at 9th level (90 dam), Wall of Fire at 8th level (81 dam) then Fire Storm (77 dam) doing an average of 82 damage per round. Giving it an offensive CR of 13. If you assume the creatures the druid is fighting are stupid and stay standing in the walls of fire, that could technically be an average of 169 damage per round (Cast 8th lvl Wall of Fire on 2 creatures, creatures get burnt standing still, cast 9th lvl Wall of Fire on 2 creatures, creatures get burnt standing still, cast Fire Storm, creatures get burnt standing still) giving it an offensive CR of 21 when adjusted for attack modifier.
So using the higher offensive CR value would give an overall CR of 13, which is close to the Archdruids actual CR of 12.
TL;DR Trying to calculate the CR of spellcasters is not simple and trying to guess how someone else calculated it is a nightmare, as shown by me wasting half an hour doing this and probably making a mistake somewhere.
While I get the point you're making, why wouldn't they just maintain wall of fire each round and add it's damage to the total? Cast it once rather than cast two versions of the same concentration spell. I don't know if they take that into consideration or not. I would assume so because offensive and defensive are to balance out. If defensive was a 5, offensive would have to be a 19 for them to meet in the middle. For all we know, druids also add the HP of the highest HP wild shapes they can take. I've no clue, to be honest. I was just asking about spell damage anyway, not balancing overall CR.
The defensive CR is based off HP and AC, and an Archdruids would be 5.
If a monster has the ability to negate damage those need to be taken into account, and an Archdruid can transform into a 90+ HP elemental twice a day (which would also net them some useful damage resistances) and can also cast Heal to recover at least 70 HP at a time. This gets a bit complicated since any turn spent doing that is a spent not killing their enemies (which affects their offensive CR), but surely their defensive CR is higher than 5 in practice.
If you assume the creatures the druid is fighting are stupid and stay standing in the walls of fire, that could technically be an average of 169 damage per round (Cast 8th lvl Wall of Fire on 2 creatures, creatures get burnt standing still, cast 9th lvl Wall of Fire on 2 creatures, creatures get burnt standing still, cast Fire Storm, creatures get burnt standing still) giving it an offensive CR of 21 when adjusted for attack modifier.
On the other hand I don't think it's fair to assume the monster's targets will be stupid. No creature with working pain receptors and a survival instinct would voluntarily let itself burn to death.
TL;DR Trying to calculate the CR of spellcasters is not simple and trying to guess how someone else calculated it is a nightmare, as shown by me wasting half an hour doing this and probably making a mistake somewhere.
Agreed.
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So a creature's CR is based on several factors, one of which is damage output. But how is the damage output calculated for spellcasters? For example, and Archdruid is CR 12 but if it's damage bas based solely on it's one scimitar attack a round, it's CR would be laughable. Should these be based on their most powerful spells or what?
Chapter 9 of the dungeon masters guide features a series of tables for calculating offensive, defensive and average (listed) CR. Offensive CR is based on the average damage on it's offensive abilities including spells with the assumption they hit. Only spells that call damage, or increase hp or AC are factored into CR.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dmg/dungeon-masters-workshop#CreatingaMonsterStatBlock
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Which I am aware of, it's the info I was going off of. I know part of it also mentions the assumption of the average damage in the first 3 founds of combat, so would you say that damage rating should be based off of the spellcaster's three most damaging spells they have and would use in those three rounds? Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, I hope it didn't sound like I was being rude at the beginning of my response.
WotC did not follow their own suggestions when determining CR for their own monsters.
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Content Troubleshooting
No, and that is intentional. They have a very math heavy algorithm to calculate their CR. However, it would be too cumbersome for players to use, so they invented a simplified version for players to use, which is what is in the DMG.
Assigning CRs is not an exact science. You still have to playtest to see if the table's predictions are reasonable in practice.
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Absolutely.
But also, WotC does not follow that table. They have their own algorithm and that table is, like, the “diet” version of that. They quite literally do not follow the same metrics for determining CR that they told us to follow.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
The defensive CR is based off HP and AC, and an Archdruids would be 5.
As far as I'm aware the offensive CR is calculated as if the creature/npc used their most powerful attacks/abilities/spells for 3 rounds of combat, they hit average damage, hit 2 enemies if their attacks target more than 1 creature and creatures fail their saves if any and finally adjusted based on their attack modifier. Having a quick look at the archdruid statblock that'd be casting Wall of Fire at 9th level (90 dam), Wall of Fire at 8th level (81 dam) then Fire Storm (77 dam) doing an average of 82 damage per round. Giving it an offensive CR of 13. If you assume the creatures the druid is fighting are stupid and stay standing in the walls of fire, that could technically be an average of 169 damage per round (Cast 8th lvl Wall of Fire on 2 creatures, creatures get burnt standing still, cast 9th lvl Wall of Fire on 2 creatures, creatures get burnt standing still, cast Fire Storm, creatures get burnt standing still) giving it an offensive CR of 21 when adjusted for attack modifier.
So using the higher offensive CR value would give an overall CR of 13, which is close to the Archdruids actual CR of 12.
TL;DR Trying to calculate the CR of spellcasters is not simple and trying to guess how someone else calculated it is a nightmare, as shown by me wasting half an hour doing this and probably making a mistake somewhere.
While I get the point you're making, why wouldn't they just maintain wall of fire each round and add it's damage to the total? Cast it once rather than cast two versions of the same concentration spell. I don't know if they take that into consideration or not. I would assume so because offensive and defensive are to balance out. If defensive was a 5, offensive would have to be a 19 for them to meet in the middle. For all we know, druids also add the HP of the highest HP wild shapes they can take. I've no clue, to be honest. I was just asking about spell damage anyway, not balancing overall CR.
If a monster has the ability to negate damage those need to be taken into account, and an Archdruid can transform into a 90+ HP elemental twice a day (which would also net them some useful damage resistances) and can also cast Heal to recover at least 70 HP at a time. This gets a bit complicated since any turn spent doing that is a spent not killing their enemies (which affects their offensive CR), but surely their defensive CR is higher than 5 in practice.
On the other hand I don't think it's fair to assume the monster's targets will be stupid. No creature with working pain receptors and a survival instinct would voluntarily let itself burn to death.
Agreed.
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