Orc 1 is clearly hit for normal effect. Do Orcs 2 and 3 get "+2 DEX save" due to half-cover (a creature, enemy or ally, from pg 251 of DMG)? Or are they "in the AoE"?
Ocr 4 is around the corner of a wall. I assume he would have cover if he were the only target, thanks to the wall. How is that changed by the presence of Orcs 1 and 2?
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
this didn't actually answer my specific question on "what happens to Orcs 2, 3, and 4" in this example. Although I suppose you are saying "Orc 4 has half-cover, regardless, and no more".
I would say O2 & O3 might have half cover, and O4 might have 3/4 cover. But someone else might rule that O2 has half cover, but O3 & O4 have 3/4 cover. It’s up to the DM.
What you have to remember is that some spells, like Fireball specify that the flames wrap around corners. Burning Hands does not say that.
Fireball’s Description:
A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw. A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.
The fire spreads around corners. It ignites flammable objects in the area that aren't being worn or carried.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.
So it sounds like there is agreement that burning hands, cone of cold, artificer flamethrower... the guys in the back get cover (+2 AC or DEX save) from their hapless friends in the front. Unless, like fireball, the description says it wraps around cover. That's less powerful than in the past, and less simple, but consistent I suppose.
None of them are literally standing behind each other. They are standing with enough room to move and/or fight, not hugging each other. Why would anything other than the wall give any significant cover?
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
That’s why I said O2 & O3 would have 1/2 cover, but O4 would have 3/4 cover.
None of them are literally standing behind each other. They are standing with enough room to move and/or fight, not hugging each other. Why would anything other than the wall give any significant cover?
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
That’s why I said O2 & O3 would have 1/2 cover, but O4 would have 3/4 cover.
Can be a creature but not automatically a creature. A dragon is likely large enough to provide full cover, let alone partial. Someone or something the same size? Not so much unless literally using them as a human shield.
That’s up to the DM to calculate how much of the creature is blocked. If the DM says it’s 50% obscured, it gets 1/2 cover.
Using my experience with wargames such as Warhammer 40,000, one simply drops to eye level with the table and looks. If you can not see at least 50% of the miniature, it has 1/2 cover and move on because pointlessly debating with the DM is useless, wastes time, and pisses people off.
Using my experience with wargames such as Warhammer 40,000, one simply drops to eye level with the table and looks. If you can not see at least 50% of the miniature, it has 1/2 cover and move on because pointlessly debating with the DM is useless, wastes time, and pisses people off.
With only 6 figures, how often does that happen? And presumably you apply that principle in both directions?
It depends on how much terrain. And the average game of 40k has somewhere north of 60+ minis, sometimes hundreds per army. It is conceivable to play a game with 300+ minis on the 4-foot by 6-foot table.
And yes, that same principle applies both ways. It’s called “true line of sight.”
Using my experience with wargames such as Warhammer 40,000, one simply drops to eye level with the table and looks. If you can not see at least 50% of the miniature, it has 1/2 cover and move on because pointlessly debating with the DM is useless, wastes time, and pisses people off.
With only 6 figures, how often does that happen? And presumably you apply that principle in both directions?
It depends on how much terrain. And the average game of 40k has somewhere north of 60+ minis, sometimes hundreds per army. It is conceivable to play a game with 300+ minis on the 4-foot by 6-foot table.
And yes, that same principle applies both ways. It’s called “true line of sight.”
Oh believe me, I understand the concept. Used to play a little Warhammer, well before 40k came about, plus battletech and a couple other old miniatures games. Other options for checking LOS are, of course periscope or simply using a string (also useful for checking range). (Mentioning such things for anyone who has never played such games)
And yeah, as long as the principle is applied in both directions, fair enough :)
Using my experience with wargames such as Warhammer 40,000, one simply drops to eye level with the table and looks. If you can not see at least 50% of the miniature, it has 1/2 cover and move on because pointlessly debating with the DM is useless, wastes time, and pisses people off.
With only 6 figures, how often does that happen? And presumably you apply that principle in both directions?
It depends on how much terrain. And the average game of 40k has somewhere north of 60+ minis, sometimes hundreds per army. It is conceivable to play a game with 300+ minis on the 4-foot by 6-foot table.
And yes, that same principle applies both ways. It’s called “true line of sight.”
Oh believe me, I understand the concept. Used to play a little Warhammer, well before 40k came about, plus battletech and a couple other old miniatures games. Other options for checking LOS are, of course periscope or simply using a string (also useful for checking range). (Mentioning such things for anyone who has never played such games)
And yeah, as long as the principle is applied in both directions, fair enough :)
Nowadays they use lasers instead of string.
Normally I would wonder about the cost, but since any given laser pointer is a cheap laser and given the cost of minis these days, not so surprised :D
Often the use the special lasers contractors use to check levels and measure out studs. 40k nerds take their stuff seriously.
Edit: Although lasers are actually more common of War Machine players.
(Played a game at a convention last year where the mini's base included a color-coded laser lamp - if the target had any of your color on it, you could shoot it. Lamps stayed on during the turn, switched off for between-turns planning and documentation.)
My group decided that height matters; anything twice as high/wide as it's "cover" gets no bonus. I.e. the 9' tall ogre gets cover from the 6' orc, but nothing from the 4' goblin. And likewise, when the dragon rises up to breath (down) on the party, no one gets any cover from their friends. but when the dart-cloud trap is triggered by the rogue (whoops!), the PCs behind him get half- or maybe even 3/4-cover because the rogue is blocking the majority of the blast.
Note that this is a DEPOWERING of previous editions, and is an interpretation of the phrase (in the spells) "each creature [in the AoE] must make a DEX save... or [take damage]".
have you ever tried to hit someone while someone else is between the two of you? regardless of their size and your skill, it is harder than hitting them without a person int he way, the same applies here, if there is a person in front of your target you don't should because you could hit them, despite them being smaller than the target they are giving it cover.
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I have been searching the rules and the threads, and Reddit, and I can't find a definitive answer to this question:
Do targets of a spell or effect provide cover to the targets "behind" them?
[WALL] Orc 4
Mage -> Orc 1 Orc 2 Orc 3
Mage cast burning hands. (Or, in our group, "Artificer uses flame cannon"). 15' fiery cone.
Orc 1 is clearly hit for normal effect. Do Orcs 2 and 3 get "+2 DEX save" due to half-cover (a creature, enemy or ally, from pg 251 of DMG)? Or are they "in the AoE"?
Ocr 4 is around the corner of a wall. I assume he would have cover if he were the only target, thanks to the wall. How is that changed by the presence of Orcs 1 and 2?
Cover
Walls, trees, creatures, and other obstacles can provide cover during combat, making a target more difficult to harm. A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.
There are three degrees of cover. If a target is behind multiple sources of cover, only the most protective degree of cover applies; the degrees aren't added together. For example, if a target is behind a creature that gives half cover and a tree trunk that gives three-quarters cover, the target has three-quarters cover.
Half Cover
A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.
Three-Quarters Cover
A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.
Total Cover
A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.
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this didn't actually answer my specific question on "what happens to Orcs 2, 3, and 4" in this example. Although I suppose you are saying "Orc 4 has half-cover, regardless, and no more".
Yeah, the answer is already highlighted in color. Straightforward. Don't overthink it.
If the setup is like this:
— — — O4
🏚🏠🏡🧟♂️
🧙♂️🧟🧟♂️🧟♀️
W O1 O2 O3
I would say O2 & O3 might have half cover, and O4 might have 3/4 cover. But someone else might rule that O2 has half cover, but O3 & O4 have 3/4 cover. It’s up to the DM.
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What you have to remember is that some spells, like Fireball specify that the flames wrap around corners. Burning Hands does not say that.
Fireball’s Description:
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So it sounds like there is agreement that burning hands, cone of cold, artificer flamethrower... the guys in the back get cover (+2 AC or DEX save) from their hapless friends in the front. Unless, like fireball, the description says it wraps around cover. That's less powerful than in the past, and less simple, but consistent I suppose.
That’s why I said O2 & O3 would have 1/2 cover, but O4 would have 3/4 cover.
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That’s up to the DM to calculate how much of the creature is blocked. If the DM says it’s 50% obscured, it gets 1/2 cover.
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Using my experience with wargames such as Warhammer 40,000, one simply drops to eye level with the table and looks. If you can not see at least 50% of the miniature, it has 1/2 cover and move on because pointlessly debating with the DM is useless, wastes time, and pisses people off.
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It depends on how much terrain. And the average game of 40k has somewhere north of 60+ minis, sometimes hundreds per army. It is conceivable to play a game with 300+ minis on the 4-foot by 6-foot table.
And yes, that same principle applies both ways. It’s called “true line of sight.”
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Nowadays they use lasers instead of string.
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Often the use the special lasers contractors use to check levels and measure out studs. 40k nerds take their stuff seriously.
Edit: Although lasers are actually more common of War Machine players.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
(Played a game at a convention last year where the mini's base included a color-coded laser lamp - if the target had any of your color on it, you could shoot it. Lamps stayed on during the turn, switched off for between-turns planning and documentation.)
My group decided that height matters; anything twice as high/wide as it's "cover" gets no bonus. I.e. the 9' tall ogre gets cover from the 6' orc, but nothing from the 4' goblin. And likewise, when the dragon rises up to breath (down) on the party, no one gets any cover from their friends. but when the dart-cloud trap is triggered by the rogue (whoops!), the PCs behind him get half- or maybe even 3/4-cover because the rogue is blocking the majority of the blast.
Note that this is a DEPOWERING of previous editions, and is an interpretation of the phrase (in the spells) "each creature [in the AoE] must make a DEX save... or [take damage]".
have you ever tried to hit someone while someone else is between the two of you? regardless of their size and your skill, it is harder than hitting them without a person int he way, the same applies here, if there is a person in front of your target you don't should because you could hit them, despite them being smaller than the target they are giving it cover.