Yes, there are non-evil liches in Forgotten Realms lore, and they have been there for quite some time. If you've played Princes of the Apocalypse you've likely ran into one, so it's great that they still exist in canon. It isn't outright stated that that particular one isn't feasting on souls, but it's heavily implied due to his nature, pacifism, and that his phylactery is several miles away in a place surrounded by paladins. Libris Mortis in 3.5 did mention them in a tiny blurb, they were called "archliches", but it seems the term is becoming retired with Arcerak and all claiming the title, and Renwick was not called by the term either. City of Splendors: Waterdeep mentions the chaotic good Alathene Moonstar, matriarch of house Moonstar.
The whole "liches must feed souls to their phylactery" thing is a recent development, and although adds additional evil to the common evil lich, but may have been an oversight because of the non-evil liches that do exist in lore.
So how would one say a non-evil lich would maintain their phylactery? I've seen other suggestions such as having to siphon more magic into their phylactery, or eating memories or emotions from others, particularly bad ones people didn't want anyway, or feeding off some substance that is processed positive energy so it's sorta like a soul but not really.
However, I'm still wondering how this issue will be handled canonically.
I don't remember reading anywhere that Liches have to feed souls to their phylacteries to function. Arcerak is feeding souls to an artifact that is in turn feeding a proto-god. They Thayans are looking for the device because their lich lord wants it to maintain power and control over others who would try to become liches in the future (as it would trap their souls) and to make sure it doesn't hurt him or his lich generals.
None of those souls the Soulmonger gathers are going towards feeding any phylacteries.
Baelnorn are maintained by the power diffusing them from the Seldarine, either not needing a phylactery or making feeding it unnecessary. So there is precidence for good deities to support their happy undead champions; worth considering that liches are inevitably totally selfish, while good liches are inevitably waiting to fulfil their good purpose so are more likely to be favoured by good deities.
I don't remember reading anywhere that Liches have to feed souls to their phylacteries to function. Arcerak is feeding souls to an artifact that is in turn feeding a proto-god. They Thayans are looking for the device because their lich lord wants it to maintain power and control over others who would try to become liches in the future (as it would trap their souls) and to make sure it doesn't hurt him or his lich generals.
None of those souls the Soulmonger gathers are going towards feeding any phylacteries.
This has nothing to do with ToA, the thing about liches feeding souls is something mentioned in the Monster Manual. It seems to be a recent development in 5e since I haven't seen it mentioned in previous editions with the exception of Arcerak as a demilich devouring the souls of anyone who touches his skull, which also kinda contradicts what the new MM says.
Baelnorn are maintained by the power diffusing them from the Seldarine, either not needing a phylactery or making feeding it unnecessary. So there is precidence for good deities to support their happy undead champions; worth considering that liches are inevitably totally selfish, while good liches are inevitably waiting to fulfil their good purpose so are more likely to be favoured by good deities.
I suppose that could work for Renwick, being a champion of Tyr, and Alathene is a promoter of Selune.
Not sure about Lady Saharel, an old friend of Elminster who was one of many Netherese liches. One could just say Mystra.
In AD&D's Spelljammer Supplement Lost Ships, it details a monster called "Lich, Arch" or in the text, Archlich. Archliches are good-aligned liches, who seek the undead state for noble goals, such as the protection of a place they love. In this text, it is stated that instead of phylacteries, archliches store their life force in magical items that they created, most commonly a miniature spellbook holding nine spells. It is not, however, stated whether or not they require new souls to feed them.
In Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, also an AD&D book, Lady Alathene Moonstar is described in further detail. In a foodnote commentary by Elminster, it is noted that
Although she is seen by the Lords of the city as a force for good (sometimes sending word to Piergeiron about illicit deals and doings that she overhears in the Mermaid), she is forced to maintain her unlife by draining the life forces of living, intelligent beings (two to three a year). She must do this by direct bodily contact, and usually chooses to so use guests she dislikes or sees as evil. Their bones end up on the staircase.
In the same source, Lady Alathene's unlife enchantments are described as "faulty" and "failing". It is never stated what exactly these failures are. However, due to the fact that in the Archlich monster description, no such need for souls is mentioned, and the archlich featured in a sample adventure, Sharangar, is not mentioned as needing to take souls, I believe it would be reasonable to assume that Lady Alathene's need for souls is caused by these failing enchantments.
I'd argue that a Non-Evil Lich could feed off of the living in small ways, as a variant rule, replacing the normal Lich's Paralyzing Touch.
Syphoning Touch:
Mechanically, the same to-hit and range as Paralyzing Touch, but deals 3d6 Necrotic Damage. Given that resistance to Necrotic Damage is very rare, adding any further effects to this ability just makes it unfair, otherwise you're going to have a bony-ass skeleton-mage wire-fu-ing your adventuring party into the ground.
As a 'feeding' mechanism, however, Syphoning Touch would allow a Non-Evil Lich, as a full round action, to touch a living creature while the Lich is holding it's Phylactery and absorb a portion of the target's life-force, dealing 3d6 Necrotic Damage in the process and shaves one year off the target's lifespan. If the target instead dies from this effect, the Lich instead gains 1d20+6 Soul Points. This is only effective when used on a Sentient, Sapient creature, thus the Lich can't just feed on livestock, oozes or similar creatures to get around this 'life hunger'. For every five points of damage Syphoning Touch deals, the Lich gains 1 Soul Point, and is sustained for 1 week per Soul Point. The Lich is capable of 'stockpiling' these 'Hunger Points', meaning an invasion of Drow into a Dwarven Lich's lair means it's set for months, if not longer if it can keep a number of it's Elven adversaries alive and in relatively good health, and with access to curative magic and potions, the Lich has a 'stable' of creatures to sap from to ensure it's duty to protect the Dwarven Kingdom remains fulfilled. Not good, by any stretch of the imagination, but you are a Lich. You made a choice to separate yourself from such things for the closest thing to immortality most Mortals will get and to serve your people for eternity.
For every day a Lich with a Non-Evil alignment goes without this, the Lich must make a DC 20 Willsave to avoid slipping towards an Evil alignment. Five fails in a row and the Lich is Evil and must now feed souls to their Phylactery as a normal Lich does.
How about a test of alignment through action? If a person gets a passing grade (such as showing benevolence or being redeemable at least), they are allowed to live. Those who fail spectacularly (deemed unredeemable) are lost.
It could be a kind of rite of passage for nearby clans, unknowing that the place is home to a good-aligned lich who helps the communities by keeping them clear of unredeemable evil and through other magical assistance.
This is just one of many possibilities, but the question is: Why do the adventurers encounter a good-aligned lich? That could have some bearing on the methods the lich must use to survive.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
So that's one answer to the "non-evil" lich. They become demiliches.
If you want or need a neutral or good aligned lich, as a DM, just make one up, I'd make them rather unique, with each non-soul-consuming lich having discovered an alternative means of sustaining their body and consciousness. Preferably one that isn't problematic with their ethics and morals.
An enduring non-evil undead, especially one such as a lich, who pursues undeath of it's own free will, is difficult to consider as a neutral or good aligned entity. Most undeath is strongly connected to the Negative Material Plane (or Shadowfell, or Dead-lands etc...) and those planes of existence are corruptive. A character who pursues immortality of a sort by perverting the life cycle in this manner, even with the best and most noble of intentions, is risking their own humanity.
That internal conflict can make for a good story, especially with a Power Corrupts theme. I can see over the course of a campaign, the characters witnessing the fall of an ally or mentor. Perhaps a character's former arcane tutor, or sage, already aged, being revealed as a lich.. but they're still "good". (Though as Undead, they're still pinging the Paladin's Divine Sense). As the campaign wears on, the background NPC begins to lose themselves in their pursuit of power even beyond death. Maybe they lose their ethics, justifying experiments and rituals in pursuit of a greater Good, and using evil victims for these purposes. Or they succumb to hubris and decide that they are the ultimate arbiters of what is "good" and "evil" placing themselves above such mortal concerns. Ultimately, the Player Characters must confront their former friend... drama ensues (Good Drama at that.. fiction is full-to-bursting) with examples.
In any event, the Lich being an NPC, it is the responsibility of the DM to decide how their alignment reconciles with their state. @Meowcana, it's your campaign, and your players. Do what makes you happy and brings you fun. Even if it "breaks the rules" or doesn't follow the free advice you get from others (myself included)
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Goes by the name Dezzy Parrish My Pronouns are Xe/Xer/Xim
in my world (link in sig) their is one lich who powers the phlactery with the souls of the already dead (which their are many of where they live) and became a lich to save their homeland.
in my world (link in sig) their is one lich who powers the phlactery with the souls of the already dead (which their are many of where they live) and became a lich to save their homeland.
Your doesn't have a sig. That's on your main account.
Maybe they don't need full souls, perhaps they can take a small amount of 'soul' from many willing (or unwilling) subjects. I'm thinking like Thomas Raith from the Dresden Files. He just siphons off a small amount of energy from many sources, not dipping so deep as to leave permanent harm. This would probably leave the subjects lethargic for a time but with no lasting damage.
Other ideas floated for other similar life force sources could be considered, or directly siphoning energy from a plane of the afterlife of some sort could be an idea to pursue.
The first idea taken a step further... The phylactery is say the fountain in the town square. It's good luck to touch the fountain and is a strongly of observed superstition (perhaps the lich started the rumor). So most town folk touch the fountain on a daily to weekly basis feeling a little 'tingle' when they do so. Perhaps unbeknownst to them it is taking the smallest fragment of their soul into it. Maybe it is even a place the elderly go for their last breath as the Goodluck extends into the afterlife.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Perhaps they could plane shift to Hades or the Nine Hells, or send a minion in their place, to harvest evil souls found there to feed to the lich's phylactery? There'd be no shortage of evil souls from across the multiverse, without a doubt, but they'd have to evade thousands of fiends in the process of course... but as a lich, they would likely be tough enough to survive if they keep their heads down, move fast, and don't stay there any longer than they have to.
Perhaps they could plane shift to Hades or the Nine Hells, or send a minion in their place, to harvest evil souls found there to feed to the lich's phylactery? There'd be no shortage of evil souls from across the multiverse, without a doubt, but they'd have to evade thousands of fiends in the process of course... but as a lich, they would likely be tough enough to survive if they keep their heads down, move fast, and don't stay there any longer than they have to.
Not hades is just for random people not evil people
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Yes, there are non-evil liches in Forgotten Realms lore, and they have been there for quite some time. If you've played Princes of the Apocalypse you've likely ran into one, so it's great that they still exist in canon. It isn't outright stated that that particular one isn't feasting on souls, but it's heavily implied due to his nature, pacifism, and that his phylactery is several miles away in a place surrounded by paladins. Libris Mortis in 3.5 did mention them in a tiny blurb, they were called "archliches", but it seems the term is becoming retired with Arcerak and all claiming the title, and Renwick was not called by the term either. City of Splendors: Waterdeep mentions the chaotic good Alathene Moonstar, matriarch of house Moonstar.
The whole "liches must feed souls to their phylactery" thing is a recent development, and although adds additional evil to the common evil lich, but may have been an oversight because of the non-evil liches that do exist in lore.
So how would one say a non-evil lich would maintain their phylactery? I've seen other suggestions such as having to siphon more magic into their phylactery, or eating memories or emotions from others, particularly bad ones people didn't want anyway, or feeding off some substance that is processed positive energy so it's sorta like a soul but not really.
However, I'm still wondering how this issue will be handled canonically.
Feed evil souls to the phylactery.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Tooltips (Help/aid)
I don't remember reading anywhere that Liches have to feed souls to their phylacteries to function. Arcerak is feeding souls to an artifact that is in turn feeding a proto-god. They Thayans are looking for the device because their lich lord wants it to maintain power and control over others who would try to become liches in the future (as it would trap their souls) and to make sure it doesn't hurt him or his lich generals.
None of those souls the Soulmonger gathers are going towards feeding any phylacteries.
Baelnorn are maintained by the power diffusing them from the Seldarine, either not needing a phylactery or making feeding it unnecessary. So there is precidence for good deities to support their happy undead champions; worth considering that liches are inevitably totally selfish, while good liches are inevitably waiting to fulfil their good purpose so are more likely to be favoured by good deities.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
From the monster manual:
So, yes, liches need to keep feeing their phylacteries. It is difficult to see such an act as not-evil.
This has nothing to do with ToA, the thing about liches feeding souls is something mentioned in the Monster Manual. It seems to be a recent development in 5e since I haven't seen it mentioned in previous editions with the exception of Arcerak as a demilich devouring the souls of anyone who touches his skull, which also kinda contradicts what the new MM says.
In AD&D's Spelljammer Supplement Lost Ships, it details a monster called "Lich, Arch" or in the text, Archlich. Archliches are good-aligned liches, who seek the undead state for noble goals, such as the protection of a place they love. In this text, it is stated that instead of phylacteries, archliches store their life force in magical items that they created, most commonly a miniature spellbook holding nine spells. It is not, however, stated whether or not they require new souls to feed them.
In Volo's Guide to Waterdeep, also an AD&D book, Lady Alathene Moonstar is described in further detail. In a foodnote commentary by Elminster, it is noted that
In the same source, Lady Alathene's unlife enchantments are described as "faulty" and "failing". It is never stated what exactly these failures are. However, due to the fact that in the Archlich monster description, no such need for souls is mentioned, and the archlich featured in a sample adventure, Sharangar, is not mentioned as needing to take souls, I believe it would be reasonable to assume that Lady Alathene's need for souls is caused by these failing enchantments.
I'd argue that a Non-Evil Lich could feed off of the living in small ways, as a variant rule, replacing the normal Lich's Paralyzing Touch.
Syphoning Touch:
Mechanically, the same to-hit and range as Paralyzing Touch, but deals 3d6 Necrotic Damage. Given that resistance to Necrotic Damage is very rare, adding any further effects to this ability just makes it unfair, otherwise you're going to have a bony-ass skeleton-mage wire-fu-ing your adventuring party into the ground.
As a 'feeding' mechanism, however, Syphoning Touch would allow a Non-Evil Lich, as a full round action, to touch a living creature while the Lich is holding it's Phylactery and absorb a portion of the target's life-force, dealing 3d6 Necrotic Damage in the process and shaves one year off the target's lifespan. If the target instead dies from this effect, the Lich instead gains 1d20+6 Soul Points. This is only effective when used on a Sentient, Sapient creature, thus the Lich can't just feed on livestock, oozes or similar creatures to get around this 'life hunger'. For every five points of damage Syphoning Touch deals, the Lich gains 1 Soul Point, and is sustained for 1 week per Soul Point. The Lich is capable of 'stockpiling' these 'Hunger Points', meaning an invasion of Drow into a Dwarven Lich's lair means it's set for months, if not longer if it can keep a number of it's Elven adversaries alive and in relatively good health, and with access to curative magic and potions, the Lich has a 'stable' of creatures to sap from to ensure it's duty to protect the Dwarven Kingdom remains fulfilled. Not good, by any stretch of the imagination, but you are a Lich. You made a choice to separate yourself from such things for the closest thing to immortality most Mortals will get and to serve your people for eternity.
For every day a Lich with a Non-Evil alignment goes without this, the Lich must make a DC 20 Willsave to avoid slipping towards an Evil alignment. Five fails in a row and the Lich is Evil and must now feed souls to their Phylactery as a normal Lich does.
I could totally see a good lich tracking groups of bandits and other evil humanoids to feed to his/heirs phylactery.
How about a test of alignment through action? If a person gets a passing grade (such as showing benevolence or being redeemable at least), they are allowed to live. Those who fail spectacularly (deemed unredeemable) are lost.
It could be a kind of rite of passage for nearby clans, unknowing that the place is home to a good-aligned lich who helps the communities by keeping them clear of unredeemable evil and through other magical assistance.
This is just one of many possibilities, but the question is: Why do the adventurers encounter a good-aligned lich? That could have some bearing on the methods the lich must use to survive.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Execution of a criminal
Siphoning some life force of criminals
Self-sacrifice of followers
Feeding of lesser creatures ( animals before they being slaughtered)
Attack: [roll]3d20dl2+6[/roll] Damage: [roll](if([roll:-1:critical], =0, 1d8, 2{1d8}.expand()))+4[/roll] Sneakattack: [roll](if([roll:-2:critical], =0, 2d6, 2{2d6}.expand()))[/roll]So that's one answer to the "non-evil" lich. They become demiliches.
If you want or need a neutral or good aligned lich, as a DM, just make one up, I'd make them rather unique, with each non-soul-consuming lich having discovered an alternative means of sustaining their body and consciousness. Preferably one that isn't problematic with their ethics and morals.
An enduring non-evil undead, especially one such as a lich, who pursues undeath of it's own free will, is difficult to consider as a neutral or good aligned entity. Most undeath is strongly connected to the Negative Material Plane (or Shadowfell, or Dead-lands etc...) and those planes of existence are corruptive. A character who pursues immortality of a sort by perverting the life cycle in this manner, even with the best and most noble of intentions, is risking their own humanity.
That internal conflict can make for a good story, especially with a Power Corrupts theme. I can see over the course of a campaign, the characters witnessing the fall of an ally or mentor. Perhaps a character's former arcane tutor, or sage, already aged, being revealed as a lich.. but they're still "good". (Though as Undead, they're still pinging the Paladin's Divine Sense). As the campaign wears on, the background NPC begins to lose themselves in their pursuit of power even beyond death. Maybe they lose their ethics, justifying experiments and rituals in pursuit of a greater Good, and using evil victims for these purposes. Or they succumb to hubris and decide that they are the ultimate arbiters of what is "good" and "evil" placing themselves above such mortal concerns. Ultimately, the Player Characters must confront their former friend... drama ensues (Good Drama at that.. fiction is full-to-bursting) with examples.
In any event, the Lich being an NPC, it is the responsibility of the DM to decide how their alignment reconciles with their state. @Meowcana, it's your campaign, and your players. Do what makes you happy and brings you fun. Even if it "breaks the rules" or doesn't follow the free advice you get from others (myself included)
Goes by the name Dezzy Parrish
My Pronouns are Xe/Xer/Xim
in my world (link in sig) their is one lich who powers the phlactery with the souls of the already dead (which their are many of where they live) and became a lich to save their homeland.
Your doesn't have a sig. That's on your main account.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
Maybe they don't need full souls, perhaps they can take a small amount of 'soul' from many willing (or unwilling) subjects. I'm thinking like Thomas Raith from the Dresden Files. He just siphons off a small amount of energy from many sources, not dipping so deep as to leave permanent harm. This would probably leave the subjects lethargic for a time but with no lasting damage.
Other ideas floated for other similar life force sources could be considered, or directly siphoning energy from a plane of the afterlife of some sort could be an idea to pursue.
The first idea taken a step further... The phylactery is say the fountain in the town square. It's good luck to touch the fountain and is a strongly of observed superstition (perhaps the lich started the rumor). So most town folk touch the fountain on a daily to weekly basis feeling a little 'tingle' when they do so. Perhaps unbeknownst to them it is taking the smallest fragment of their soul into it. Maybe it is even a place the elderly go for their last breath as the Goodluck extends into the afterlife.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Perhaps they could plane shift to Hades or the Nine Hells, or send a minion in their place, to harvest evil souls found there to feed to the lich's phylactery?
There'd be no shortage of evil souls from across the multiverse, without a doubt, but they'd have to evade thousands of fiends in the process of course... but as a lich, they would likely be tough enough to survive if they keep their heads down, move fast, and don't stay there any longer than they have to.
Not hades is just for random people not evil people
TO TARTARUS
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
yes that one (also know as carerci)