I'm testing a new type of character these next few months, a character based purely off of a high status Noble. My goal is to allow new players fight or gain their XP and I'll help out where they can't, while guiding them along the way. This Noble will be used to buy general supplies at the beginning and overtime, help build an empire with these party members. It's a test character that'll take very little xp from the party, and still keep things interesting.
I would avoid using DMPCs to hog the spotlight. As a table, you are all trying to tell the party's story, and not the DMPCs.
My DMPC runs a multi dimensional business empire and wants to expand her business into Faerun, but that is the background story. As a patron of the party, she will provide material support and guidance, but she does so in a way that does not take the spotlight away. If the party needs guidance through a forest for example, I will have her provide a map rather than having her guide the party herself like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. If my players are having a tough fight, I remind them that retreat is always an option and come back to it after they recharge and regroup, and if they need some potions or better armor, their patron can pull some strings along the supply chain and procure some goods at a discount. If I need someone to swoop in to save the day, I would use another NPC more closely tied to the party.
While the end result of guiding the party directly yourself versus providing a map to the party is the same, or buying stuff for the party versus giving them a discount, it is how you present and work your way to the end result that matters. If you put too much attention on your DMPC, your players may start to feel like they are side characters to the campaign rather than main characters.
XXXGammaRay speaks true. They are also touching on the difference between a DMPC and what I refer to a a PNPC. A DMPC will all too often end up stealing the spotlight from the actual PCs, even when the DM tries specifically to avoid that. A PNPC (“Party NPC”) doesn’t actually participate much at all unless:
One of the PCs asks for them for input or tells them to do something.
I (as DM) want an in-character way to remind the players of a piece of information that they have forgotten but that their PCs would remember.*1
I (as DM) recognize that the players are about to spend an inordinate amount of time on,, for little to no gain, and want an in-character excuse to wave that minutia. That’s when the PNPC might volunteer.*2
Its something none of the PCs can do.*3
PNPCs don’t actually participate in combat. They get narrated as participating, but they don’t actually do any damage 99.9% of the time. The PCs get the fun, excitement, and glory of victory in combat. Usually PNPCs are ranged combatants instead of front line fighters, that way they don’t even draw fire because In don’t want them to affect the challenge for the party.*4 In fact, often their biggest contribution to combat is that they got kidnapped by the BBE’s minions and needs to be rescued. Those kidnappings usually only happens when the players are really, really stuck and floundering for what to do. In those situations I need something to interrupt the nothing that’s going on, and a random Orc attack isn’t always appropriate.*5
PNPCs also do not gain experience like PCs, and so do not reduce the EXP the actual PCs would get. Instead, a PNPC just automatically keeps pace with whichever PC has the lowest XP total. That means less bookkeeping for me, and full level advancement for the PCs who are the actual stars of the story.
That’s really the main point, a DMPC is usually frowned upon because they usually take away from what the PCs should be doing, and that results in the DM taking away from the other players’ fun. A PNPC takes care of the 🐂💩 for the express purpose of enabling the actual PCs to do more, resulting in more fun for the other players. A general rule I tend to use is a hat if something would require a die roll, and one of the PCs could do it, then the PNPC does nothing, even if I narrate their doing something. If the DM starts rolling for not only the stuff that’s supposed to challenge the party, but also for the things the party does to overcome those challenges, I did it wrong. (Nobody wants to sit around and watch the DM playing with themself.)
*1-5 👇
*(For example, the PCs may have discovered something “this morning,” three months ago. Only a few hours might have passed in-game, so the PCs would remember it, but it would be perfectly understandable for the players to not remember.)
*(For example, instead of the whole party running minor errands, or instead of splitting the party, the PNPC might volunteer to go do that stuff. That way we don’t have to spend an entire session chatting up store clerks. I could just say that those errands happen without actually doing the thing, but I often find “handwavium” to be rather “ham handed” (pun intended) without an in-game reason for it. A PNPC is a convenient excuse to wake my hand.)
*(For example, if none of the PCs is a healer, or none of them can pick a lock. Sure, letting the Barbarian (or whoever) break down the door might work a lot of the time. But occasionally something less noisy, noticeable, or destructive might be preferable. PNPCs are generally made with the specific party composition in mind to fill whatever hole the actual party may have infilled.)
*(Unless I need an excuse to dial down the challenge for some reason, usually my own miscalculation when I designed the encounter.)
PS- I call them a “PNPC” instead of just “NPC” because a typical NPC would generally “do” more than a PNPC without being instructed by a PC. Anything I can do to h ll remind myself to have them “not do,” the less likely I am to accidentally slip into DMPC territory.
I know where y’all are coming from. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a test character is all. And he’s going to hold only money and be used to supply when needed. I’ve played my fair share of campaigns and always had a player help me. I want to try now.
I know where y’all are coming from. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a test character is all. And he’s going to hold only money and be used to supply when needed. I’ve played my fair share of campaigns and always had a player help me. I want to try now.
I'm confused. Are you the DM or playing? If you're the DM, in your fair share of campaigns, you'd probably recognize in terms of game design it's probably better not to consider this a PC but a patron. I mean if he's doing nothing but providing material aid ... I mean most patrons do more that, bestow words of wisdom, emphasize story elements the group hasn't figured out yet, etc.
I mean I, and plenty of DMs, have multiple characters in their game worlds that serve these functions. We just don't bother making a character sheet for them, since the character sheet is a player aid not a DM aid.
I've done both dm and play, this particular character is one that'll be played, end goal is to test a party of trust and to build a kingdom with them. I will serve as a walking bank basically, helping only in emergencies, attacking in the same sense too. I just built it to see how a party would react, it has plenty of perks for the party in a long term goal, this character doesn't allow his money numbers to be known, rather he helps set up shops, squabble with merchants, or even help buy weapons of mid grade quality after a while. I had a player do this when I was a dm, I was skeptical, but it turned out to be a really interesting game, high class noble wanting to be out on an adventure, the king tries to hunt them down, he has fun and the party treats him as an equal. A fairy tale type that lasted 4 months, ending with the noble and party overthrowing the king and helping the entire nation. So I am going to try playing it.
I know where y’all are coming from. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a test character is all. And he’s going to hold only money and be used to supply when needed. I’ve played my fair share of campaigns and always had a player help me. I want to try now.
So, in other words, it’s the “party banker.” They are intended to track party funds for the players, and maybe make loans to the party. Then just make it a regular NPC for the loans and leave the players to track the party funds since that’s their responsibility. (They just need to nominate someone to do the bookkeeping for the party, just like choosing who will be the banker when playing Monopoly.)
I get the impression that either you think there’s more to it than it really entails, or else you aren’t explaining what you mean in a way that we can understand your intentions. Could you perhaps elaborate or clarify things a bit more so we can pick up what you’re tryin’a put down? That might help this conversation to a little smoother and lead to more constructive feedback.
I mean I, and plenty of DMs, have multiple characters in their game worlds that serve these functions. We just don't bother making a character sheet for them, since the character sheet is a player aid not a DM aid.
I got the impression this is an entire class/subclass being discussed just to generate a character sheet.
I've done both dm and play, this particular character is one that'll be played, end goal is to test a party of trust and to build a kingdom with them. I will serve as a walking bank basically, helping only in emergencies, attacking in the same sense too. I just built it to see how a party would react, it has plenty of perks for the party in a long term goal, this character doesn't allow his money numbers to be known, rather he helps set up shops, squabble with merchants, or even help buy weapons of mid grade quality after a while. I had a player do this when I was a dm, I was skeptical, but it turned out to be a really interesting game, high class noble wanting to be out on an adventure, the king tries to hunt them down, he has fun and the party treats him as an equal. A fairy tale type that lasted 4 months, ending with the noble and party overthrowing the king and helping the entire nation. So I am going to try playing it.
Ok, so you're playing in the party, not the DM of this campaign, and you want your main contribution to the party to be your characters financial means. I think your intention to earn less proportionate XP to the party because you're holding the money bag or whatever and the Court frustrates your endeavors to 100% adventure may become a problem if characters are reaching 8th and 9th level and you're still somewhere around 4th. As a DM I'd be frustrated building encounters that you're either not going to be participating in or a causality liability. Also, to me, as a DM it seems like a little "insisted sideshow". If a DM wants the PCs to have resources, they'll make it so. If the the DM wants the PCs to fall into abject poverty, they'll make it so. The rest of your party may not want to play "Wealth: the one person side quest" and prefer to actually work with a treasury of wealth they've earned from adventuring. It also makes your character "important' to the party because of background, not anything you're actually doing in game (except "Wealth: the administrative Sidequest"). But those caveats aside, if it's what you want to do, and the DM and party is cool with, and you feel you can make it work have fun with it.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Along the lines discussed above, my immediate thought on reading the OP was, "You just described a party patron NPC as if it's some kind of new and exotic concept."
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I'm testing a new type of character these next few months, a character based purely off of a high status Noble. My goal is to allow new players fight or gain their XP and I'll help out where they can't, while guiding them along the way. This Noble will be used to buy general supplies at the beginning and overtime, help build an empire with these party members. It's a test character that'll take very little xp from the party, and still keep things interesting.
I would avoid using DMPCs to hog the spotlight. As a table, you are all trying to tell the party's story, and not the DMPCs.
My DMPC runs a multi dimensional business empire and wants to expand her business into Faerun, but that is the background story. As a patron of the party, she will provide material support and guidance, but she does so in a way that does not take the spotlight away. If the party needs guidance through a forest for example, I will have her provide a map rather than having her guide the party herself like Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. If my players are having a tough fight, I remind them that retreat is always an option and come back to it after they recharge and regroup, and if they need some potions or better armor, their patron can pull some strings along the supply chain and procure some goods at a discount. If I need someone to swoop in to save the day, I would use another NPC more closely tied to the party.
While the end result of guiding the party directly yourself versus providing a map to the party is the same, or buying stuff for the party versus giving them a discount, it is how you present and work your way to the end result that matters. If you put too much attention on your DMPC, your players may start to feel like they are side characters to the campaign rather than main characters.
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XXXGammaRay speaks true. They are also touching on the difference between a DMPC and what I refer to a a PNPC. A DMPC will all too often end up stealing the spotlight from the actual PCs, even when the DM tries specifically to avoid that. A PNPC (“Party NPC”) doesn’t actually participate much at all unless:
*1*2*3PNPCs don’t actually participate in combat. They get narrated as participating, but they don’t actually do any damage 99.9% of the time. The PCs get the fun, excitement, and glory of victory in combat. Usually PNPCs are ranged combatants instead of front line fighters, that way they don’t even draw fire because In don’t want them to affect the challenge for the party.
*4 In fact, often their biggest contribution to combat is that they got kidnapped by the BBE’s minions and needs to be rescued. Those kidnappings usually only happens when the players are really, really stuck and floundering for what to do. In those situations I need something to interrupt the nothing that’s going on, and a random Orc attack isn’t always appropriate.*5PNPCs also do not gain experience like PCs, and so do not reduce the EXP the actual PCs would get. Instead, a PNPC just automatically keeps pace with whichever PC has the lowest XP total. That means less bookkeeping for me, and full level advancement for the PCs who are the actual stars of the story.
That’s really the main point, a DMPC is usually frowned upon because they usually take away from what the PCs should be doing, and that results in the DM taking away from the other players’ fun. A PNPC takes care of the 🐂💩 for the express purpose of enabling the actual PCs to do more, resulting in more fun for the other players. A general rule I tend to use is a hat if something would require a die roll, and one of the PCs could do it, then the PNPC does nothing, even if I narrate their doing something. If the DM starts rolling for not only the stuff that’s supposed to challenge the party, but also for the things the party does to overcome those challenges, I did it wrong. (Nobody wants to sit around and watch the DM playing with themself.)
*1-5 👇
*(For example, the PCs may have discovered something “this morning,” three months ago. Only a few hours might have passed in-game, so the PCs would remember it, but it would be perfectly understandable for the players to not remember.)*(For example, instead of the whole party running minor errands, or instead of splitting the party, the PNPC might volunteer to go do that stuff. That way we don’t have to spend an entire session chatting up store clerks. I could just say that those errands happen without actually doing the thing, but I often find “handwavium” to be rather “ham handed” (pun intended) without an in-game reason for it. A PNPC is a convenient excuse to wake my hand.)*(For example, if none of the PCs is a healer, or none of them can pick a lock. Sure, letting the Barbarian (or whoever) break down the door might work a lot of the time. But occasionally something less noisy, noticeable, or destructive might be preferable. PNPCs are generally made with the specific party composition in mind to fill whatever hole the actual party may have infilled.)*(Unless I need an excuse to dial down the challenge for some reason, usually my own miscalculation when I designed the encounter.)*(https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=31IAzJO-BEA)PS- I call them a “PNPC” instead of just “NPC” because a typical NPC would generally “do” more than a PNPC without being instructed by a PC. Anything I can do to h ll remind myself to have them “not do,” the less likely I am to accidentally slip into DMPC territory.
Edits: Typos, spelling, grammar.
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I know where y’all are coming from. Don’t get me wrong. It’s a test character is all. And he’s going to hold only money and be used to supply when needed. I’ve played my fair share of campaigns and always had a player help me. I want to try now.
I'm confused. Are you the DM or playing? If you're the DM, in your fair share of campaigns, you'd probably recognize in terms of game design it's probably better not to consider this a PC but a patron. I mean if he's doing nothing but providing material aid ... I mean most patrons do more that, bestow words of wisdom, emphasize story elements the group hasn't figured out yet, etc.
I mean I, and plenty of DMs, have multiple characters in their game worlds that serve these functions. We just don't bother making a character sheet for them, since the character sheet is a player aid not a DM aid.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I've done both dm and play, this particular character is one that'll be played, end goal is to test a party of trust and to build a kingdom with them. I will serve as a walking bank basically, helping only in emergencies, attacking in the same sense too. I just built it to see how a party would react, it has plenty of perks for the party in a long term goal, this character doesn't allow his money numbers to be known, rather he helps set up shops, squabble with merchants, or even help buy weapons of mid grade quality after a while. I had a player do this when I was a dm, I was skeptical, but it turned out to be a really interesting game, high class noble wanting to be out on an adventure, the king tries to hunt them down, he has fun and the party treats him as an equal. A fairy tale type that lasted 4 months, ending with the noble and party overthrowing the king and helping the entire nation. So I am going to try playing it.
So, in other words, it’s the “party banker.” They are intended to track party funds for the players, and maybe make loans to the party. Then just make it a regular NPC for the loans and leave the players to track the party funds since that’s their responsibility. (They just need to nominate someone to do the bookkeeping for the party, just like choosing who will be the banker when playing Monopoly.)
I get the impression that either you think there’s more to it than it really entails, or else you aren’t explaining what you mean in a way that we can understand your intentions. Could you perhaps elaborate or clarify things a bit more so we can pick up what you’re tryin’a put down? That might help this conversation to a little smoother and lead to more constructive feedback.
I got the impression this is an entire class/subclass being discussed just to generate a character sheet.
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Ok, so you're playing in the party, not the DM of this campaign, and you want your main contribution to the party to be your characters financial means. I think your intention to earn less proportionate XP to the party because you're holding the money bag or whatever and the Court frustrates your endeavors to 100% adventure may become a problem if characters are reaching 8th and 9th level and you're still somewhere around 4th. As a DM I'd be frustrated building encounters that you're either not going to be participating in or a causality liability. Also, to me, as a DM it seems like a little "insisted sideshow". If a DM wants the PCs to have resources, they'll make it so. If the the DM wants the PCs to fall into abject poverty, they'll make it so. The rest of your party may not want to play "Wealth: the one person side quest" and prefer to actually work with a treasury of wealth they've earned from adventuring. It also makes your character "important' to the party because of background, not anything you're actually doing in game (except "Wealth: the administrative Sidequest"). But those caveats aside, if it's what you want to do, and the DM and party is cool with, and you feel you can make it work have fun with it.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Along the lines discussed above, my immediate thought on reading the OP was, "You just described a party patron NPC as if it's some kind of new and exotic concept."